Food in the Sanctuary

[Dan Henderson]

The biggest issue here is how to have a grace-filled conversation without polarizing and launching into ad hominem attacks and name calling. These are opportunities for the local community to work through differences in a grace-filled manner and show love and respect to each other.

Fortunately, this is not one for which I am willing to fall on my sword, so no problem here. As far as I'm concerned, Doug can show up at my Church in his flip-flops to preach.

As we discuss and make changes I'm asking us to ask some questions?

1. Why was it done that way in the past? Just because no one knows the meaning of the tradition doesn't mean its not a good one? Research it and know what you are discarding and why.
2. With what new tradition are you going to replace the old? Yes, you are going to have traditions, new or old. What I am asking is to have a specific on-purpose, known and taught reasons for your traditions.

You said you had a lectern (you fell into my evil trap ). The point I was hoping to get to with this is that piece of furniture you call a lectern derives its name from how its used. The same piece of furniture could be a pulpit, podium, or lectern, depending on how its used.

[Roy Richardson]

Something of everything I listed is in every Church in some form. Its more like following a tradition when you don't even know you are following a tradition, not to mention, not understanding the purpose of the tradition you don't even know you are following.

Can you answer any of my questions?

Here are some more?
What is a quire?
What is the purpose of a tabernacle in the Catholic tradition? Why is the inside lined with gold?
Why do most Protestant churches display a Cross and not a Crucifix?

Without venturing into the (not so subtle) animosity that is apparent here, I might offer the idea that these are more customs than traditions

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/tradition?s=t

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/custom?s=t - Sociology . a group pattern of habitual activity usually transmitted from one generation to another.

Customs can be changed, but the process needs to be inclusive if you want to avoid a big kerfuffle or worse, a throw-down.

[Roy Richardson]

Fortunately, this is not one for which I am willing to fall on my sword, so no problem here. As far as I'm concerned, Doug can show up at my Church in his flip-flops to preach.

As we discuss and make changes I'm asking us to ask some questions?

1. Why was it done that way in the past? Just because no one knows the meaning of the tradition doesn't mean its not a good one? Research it and know what you are discarding and why.
2. With what new tradition are you going to replace the old? Yes, you are going to have traditions, new or old. What I am asking is to have a specific on-purpose, known and taught reasons for your traditions.

You said you had a lectern (you fell into my evil trap ). The point I was hoping to get to with this is that piece of furniture you call a lectern derives its name from how its used. The same piece of furniture could be a pulpit, podium, or lectern, depending on how its used.

Touche'

We also have the PULPIT from the old church which is a huge, wrap-around fortress-like thing that the traditionalists wanted to bring from the old building to our current space. What we have is really not much more than a non-adjustable wooden music stand.

The old PULPIT had a place to hide your drinks, notes, small children, illegal immigrants and a 1970's Datsun if you packed the space correctly

[Dan Henderson]

Touche'

We also have the PULPIT from the old church which is a huge, wrap-around fortress-like thing that the traditionalists wanted to bring from the old building to our current space. What we have is really not much more than a non-adjustable wooden music stand.

The old PULPIT had a place to hide your drinks, notes, small children, illegal immigrants and a 1970's Datsun if you packed the space correctly

It also hid the show when the pastor forgot to zip his fly. Interesting on your description as to the size of the PULPIT ... huge and center stage ... the largest piece of furniture in the room. Whereas, in a typical Catholic church, the ALTAR is the largest piece of furniture in the room and its .... wait for it ... center stage...

[Roy Richardson]

It also hid the show when the pastor forgot to zip his fly. Interesting on your description as to the size of the PULPIT ... huge and center stage ... the largest piece of furniture in the room. Whereas, in a typical Catholic church, the ALTAR is the largest piece of furniture in the room and its .... wait for it ... center stage...

As a rule, what is big and center stage tells you what the most important thing that happens there.

If the pulpit is centered, the preached word is prominent

If the communion table is centered, the sacrament is most important - Lutheran, Catholic, Anglican

It's just a rule of thumb though, and not a hard and fast guideline.

[Dan Henderson]

Without venturing into the (not so subtle) animosity that is apparent here, I might offer the idea that these are more customs than traditions

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/tradition?s=t

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/custom?s=t - Sociology . a group pattern of habitual activity usually transmitted from one generation to another.

Customs can be changed, but the process needs to be inclusive if you want to avoid a big kerfuffle or worse, a throw-down.

This is a good one and I understand it, thank you.

Saluting in the military or walking on the left side of your superior is a Custom (or, not taking food into the Sanctuary)
Lighting the candle at the beginning of a service is a Tradition.

[Roy Richardson]

This is a good one and I understand it, thank you.

Saluting in the military or walking on the left side of your superior is a Custom (or, not taking food into the Sanctuary)
Lighting the candle at the beginning of a service is a Tradition.

In one of those "God's timing" things, I am preaching on Tradition this week as part of my 4-week Wesleyan Quadrilateral series.

[Dan Henderson]

In one of those "God's timing" things, I am preaching on Tradition this week as part of my 4-week Wesleyan Quadrilateral series.

There's a good song to go with that sermon from Fiddler on the Roof

[Roy Richardson]

There's a good song to go with that sermon from Fiddler on the Roof

I'm a little hesitant to use it. I don't know how the traditionalists will react to show tunes. But I really want to show the clip.

[Wilson Deaton]

I think that every aspect of our lives (including what happen in corporate board rooms) is important to GOD, .

Agreed. "Important" was not the right word to convey what I meant.

This passage is analogous to what I meant:

1 Samuel 16:6-7

When they arrived, Samuel saw Eliab and thought, “Surely the Lord’s anointed stands here before the Lord.” But the Lord said to Samuel, “Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The Lord does not look at the things people look at. People look at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart.” (emphasis mine)

In other words, I meant that while corporate culture might "consider" where I put down a coffee cup, the Lord doesn't.

Wilson

[Wilson Deaton]

Usually when one uses the phrase "with all due respect" they mean "no respect is due".

My apologies for misusing an expression. I intended it to mean that I was not saying, "so," in a disrespectful way, but in an inquisitive way.

Wilson

[Chuck Fountain]

I think the answer to your question is in the question itself. Food in the sanctuary. If the identification used for the area where food is to be distributed, is sanctuary. And this is the normal and accepted term for the area. Then you have the answer. Sanctuary=a sacred place or a shrine.

If you used the term, worship center, sanctinasium, gymnatorium, or other id, the answer would be different.

[Eric Frey]

As a rule, what is big and center stage tells you what the most important thing that happens there.

If the pulpit is centered, the preached word is prominent

If the communion table is centered, the sacrament is most important - Lutheran, Catholic, Anglican

It's just a rule of thumb though, and not a hard and fast guideline.

So what does it tell you if there is no pulpit and no altar, just a guy standing there talking!

[Eric Frey]

Touche'

We also have the PULPIT from the old church which is a huge, wrap-around fortress-like thing that the traditionalists wanted to bring from the old building to our current space. What we have is really not much more than a non-adjustable wooden music stand.

The old PULPIT had a place to hide your drinks, notes, small children, illegal immigrants and a 1970's Datsun if you packed the space correctly

So why didn't you bring it...

[Eric Frey]

Well this certainly has strayed far from the original question. As my previous envolvement on this forum has indicated, I appreciate the call for reverence in worship very much. That is honestly one of my biggest issues. If we were to move this way we would be intentional to move forward from the chairs/tables to the pews for the worship service proper as a way of expressing our corporate coming to God. You've all given me much to think about.

I also appreciate Dan bringing the architecture/furniture piece into the conversation. I think it says something very telling what furniture is included (and how it is used). Let me suggest three pieces in particular.

The altar (also the communion table). This is the place of sacrifice. It is the place where Christ's sacrifice is made present to us and where we offer our sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving to God. The altar rails (also the altars) are not to be separated from this. They are a connected piece where the people receive God's grace as they offer themselves to God as a living sacrifice. A last point relates to our theology of ordination. The altar is a visible reminder of the priestly office of Christ, and by extension the priestly work (prayer, sacraments, blessing, anointing, etc) of the Elder.

The pulpit is a sign of the authority of Scripture. It is the place where scripture is read and scripture is proclaimed. It is not a place for praying. It is not a place for singing. It is not a place for announcements (other than the announcement of the Good News!). The pulpit "hides" the preacher so that the preacher is rooted in the authority of scripture, and it ought to be large enough and high enough that there is a feeling that the congregation is "under" it, submitting themselves to the authority of Scripture. It is a visible sign of the prophetic work of Christ, and by extension the prophetic work (preaching, evangelism, etc) of the Elder.

Finally, the clergy chairs (in high church traditions the cathedra as well as the clergy chairs). These pieces of furniture is the throne of God's reign in our church and in our world. It reminds us that we are not in charge here, but that we are only parts of a body of which Christ is the head. It proclaims our allegiance is to Christ not Caesar, that Christ alone rules and reigns in this community and in this world. It is a visible sign of the kingly work of Christ and by extension the kingly work of the Elder. Some will bristle at the use of the word King, but we are reminded that the King is in the model of the shepherd-king whose reign is pastoral.

So the three pieces of furniture central to worship are the altar, pulpit, clergy chairs. These three pieces remind us of the work of Christ and the work of the Elder. More imporantly, just as the Elder serves the church in prophetic, priestly, and pastoral ways, so too is this furniture a reminder that every Christian, through their baptism was united in this same three-fold office of Christ. Just as the elder serves the church in prophetic, priestly and pastoral ways, so too do all Christians serve the world in prophetic, priestly and pastoral ways. Hence the furniture reminds us not just of Christ and the clergy, but of the work we all have to do in order to bring Christs mission to fulfillment.

Sorry for that tangent. Blame Dan for taking us down that road

[Roy Richardson]

So why didn't you bring it...

They moved before my arrival. I think there was an attempt to leave the old church as a complete set, since it is for sale. Also, it is out of proportion for the new worship space. The old bldg was a center-aisle, elevated platform with a choir loft. The new space is one-level much smaller area.

[Roy Richardson]

I think the answer to your question is in the question itself. Food in the sanctuary. If the identification used for the area where food is to be distributed, is sanctuary. And this is the normal and accepted term for the area. Then you have the answer. Sanctuary=a sacred place or a shrine.

If you used the term, worship center, sanctinasium, gymnatorium, or other id, the answer would be different.

Since our budget doesn't allow for dedicated space, I have been working with the board and leaders to remove the descriptor of "sanctuary" and substitute "worship space" or "front room" to try to break the idea of traditional sanctuary space.

[Marsha Gupton]

My church does not allow food or drink in the sanctuary. I think this is a hard question to have one set answer for because all of our churches are somewhat different. For instance, if you church has a multi-purpose room - when is it the sanctuary and when is it the fellowship hall. That would depend on the particular event. I agree with the statements made on entering the santcuary with respect and in an attitude of worship and prayer.

[Dwayne Petry]

As stated prior, we have a fellowship hall separate from the sanctuary, some considered "remodeling the existing sanctuary into a multi-purpose facility and discussed the issue of how we would "treat" the sanctuary. Just as the grape juice is grape juice until it is "sanctified/set apart" for celebrating the Lord's Supper, the multi purpose room would be a multi purpose room until it was "sanctified/set apart" as a sanctuary in which we worship GOD. For that time of worship no food or drink would have been a allowed.

[Steven Burton]

I wonder if in our culture we could transfer the word temple in for sanctuary. Most of the concepts I see seem to have the same idea as the temple or temples of old did. But and wonder if it would change once we realized that during the exile their was a prophet (Ezekiel if I remember correctly)who wrote about how God did not live in the temple (Sanctuary).

[Jim Chabot]

I wonder if in our culture we could transfer the word temple in for sanctuary. Most of the concepts I see seem to have the same idea as the temple or temples of old did. But and wonder if it would change once we realized that during the exile their was a prophet (Ezekiel if I remember correctly)who wrote about how God did not live in the temple (Sanctuary).

Very true, but then Paul said "What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you?"

[Steven Burton]

Very true, but then Paul said "What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you?"

I am a gentile and it is custom to eat in my temple so am I to be held to the law of the Jew's and should I be circumcised as well?

[Roy Richardson]

Very true, but then Paul said "What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you?"

You know that is not an absolute prohibition on food, but an indictment of the way the Corinthian church was playing favorites with the wealthy and influential.

[John Kennedy]

To the best of my kowledge, my church has never established a rule in this respect. We have a very nice fellowship hall (Mayflower Hall - what else do you think a bunch of Congregationalists would name it?) and a kind of potluck/brunch/buffet every Sunday after worship service.

We used to hold choir rehearsals in the chancel/choir loft and no one ever objected to my bringing coffee to the rehearsal (I think it was ok since they kept giving me Starbucks cards) - of course, I didn't set my cup on the altar, either.

[Jim Chabot]

I am a gentile and it is custom to eat in my temple so am I to be held to the law of the Jew's and should I be circumcised as well?

Steven, did you miss the Groucho Marx icon?

Of course you have no need of circumcision, I'm guessing that would be painful no?

[Jim Chabot]

You know that is not an absolute prohibition on food, but an indictment of the way the Corinthian church was playing favorites with the wealthy and influential.

But of course. Just an attempt at some light hearted humor.

My take is in line with my views on worship. While we are not a service provider or an entertainment venue, we are charged with ministry to the folks that God has given us. Food in the sanctuary? Positively yes and positively no at the same time. Each congregation will have it's own ideas on this. Should a church be comfortable with this, we should not view them as irreverent or as heathens. At the same time, for those who have decided that the sanctuary is sacred space, we shouldn't view them as stodgy old legalistic bullies with no love in their hearts.

My personal preference is that food and drink becomes a distraction to worship. Singing while eating a donut is a job for professionals, don't try this at home, or at church.

[Mike Schutz]

Singing while eating a donut is a job for professionals, don't try this at home, or at church.

Of course, there are those folks who sneak food into the service. For example, I know some folks who love to suck on lemons during worship. They don't think I know, but I can tell by the expression on their faces.

[Steven Burton]

Steven, did you miss the Groucho Marx icon?

Of course you have no need of circumcision, I'm guessing that would be painful no?

Well it probably was but I have no recollection of it. Benefits of being a new born.

[Dan Henderson]

Sorry for that tangent. Blame Dan for taking us down that road

I accept full responsibility

[Rich Schmidt]

So the three pieces of furniture central to worship are the altar, pulpit, clergy chairs.

To continue with the tangent, if only briefly...

We have none of those three. No clergy chairs at all, the communion elements sit on a small table off to the side, and I set my notes on one of the music stands when I preach. And there are no kneelers/altar rails at all, either.

But then, that fits with who we are... which includes food and drink in the midst of the worship service (along with weekly celebration of communion, I might add).

[Wilson Deaton]

To continue with the tangent, if only briefly...

We have none of those three.

We don't either.

(Technically, we OWN a pulpit. Someone donated one which promptly went into the little storage room off the platform where it currently holds our amplifiers off the floor.)

Wilson

[Glenda Harvey]

Our Church Sanctuary is a Multi purpose room so several functions that include food are held there, including dinner before Wednesday Night Bible Study. On Sundays food is served outside in a patio area in front of the Church or in the Church lobby when the weather is bad.

[Lee Branum]

We removed the back two pews on both sides of the sanctuary and placed tables and chairs in their place. We combined our adult SS groups and now have a discussion roundtable format with coffee, hot chocolate, and usually someone brings finger foods to share. We have had new people bring new people and we are reaching unchurched folks that we were not reaching. To make a long story short, a number of our seniors left our church prior to the change. We recognized that we needed to change the way we minister to the community. We started a food pantry and clothing closet, and are doing the best we can to make a difference in our neighborhood. We are reaching outside of what was once the "fortress". We had new folks today...God's prevenient gift to us.

[Larry Parsons]

Do any of you regularly have food in the sanctuary? I do not mean Communion, I am thinking of coffee, donuts, fruit, juice, etc. Maybe a fellowship time before or after the service with refreshments in the sanctuary?

I am asking because we are working to build community/fellowship as a church. Each adult class now does their own refreshments and we were thinking of combining them into one fellowship time to foster some intergenerational fellowship. The problem is there are only two rooms large enough to accommodate such a gathering of people. One is the fellowship hall, but it is in the church basement and most of our seniors wouldn't go down if we had it there. The other room is the sanctuary. If we took out the back 4-5 rows of pews and put in tables and chairs we could easily accommodate everyone for both fellowship and worship.

BUT the negative is that most of the people sit in the last 4-5 rows so we would be "taking their pews" and we would be having food in the sanctuary.

Do any of you do anything like this? How did you introduce the idea? How did your seniors respond?

Don't you realize there was time when some Nazarene didn't believe in cooking on sunday and now we cook our meals on sunday in the church. I guess we could say we have come a long way baby! I remember visiting a church every once in while and it was petty good size church but would see people eating pop-corn and drink pop while the service was going and this was back in early 60's. Isn't there old say that go something like this do all thing to save a few and if allowing poeple to bring food and drink while we worship it could be worth it. If the church is large enough to have large room where food could be serve without bring into the sanctuary then I don't see the point of bring food in to the sanctuary. But we are talking about small church where everything has to be done in the sanctuary so why not. Remember you are not going tp please everyone.
Thanks
Larry