How do you and your church respond ...?

[Marsha Lynn]

So, you have the discussion. You hear all sides. Then as a church you make the decision to change the music, but you purposefully still include traditional hymns in an effort to keep everyone included. Then the people leave anyway. Never mind there are a bunch of people who have hated the music for years, and still came. What do you say about the behavior of the people who left? The greatest of these is love.... or the greatest of these is the church just the way I like it?

I once had some key people suddenly disappear from a class I teach. They didn't show up on Sunday. They didn't answer their phone. No one had heard from them since they parted ways with a class member on a Saturday night with the words, "See you in the morning." I had enough contact with family members to know they were fine, but they completely disappeared from church for a couple of weeks.

When I expressed my concern to someone during a break of a conference, she told me, "Just keep teaching the truth."

KEEP teaching the truth? What truth? Since when do I make statements of absolute truth in my teaching style? Huh?

It took till the next break for me to digest those words enough to say, "Wait! Are you saying these people have potentially left the church over doctrinal issues?"

"Yes, that's the problem. But I can't say any more about it because of confidentiality issues."

I chewed on this a while more. Really? How could they possibly be so offended as to leave the church? Really? My mind ran over and over recent scenes and exchanges. The pleasant conversation on the ski lift. The Saturday night laughter. Really? They were walking away from it all without a word? Over ... doctrine?! Really? What doctrine coming from whom?

Then I laughed. No. This was not true! There's no way in the world they had walked away from the sweet fellowship we were enjoying without a word because of doctrinal issues. 1) They aren't nearly that concerned about doctrine. 2) If they WERE suddenly that concerned, why would they leave the church when they could simply crank up their level of participation in our discussions and enjoy some good give-and-take over it all? Why leave when you can stick around and argue?

A few weeks later these people joined the church. I never found out what happened during their brief hiatus, probably because it had nothing to do with the church and was none of my business.

The point of my story is this: Why would anyone leave the church over music issues as long as those overseeing the music were willing to hear their concerns and they saw continuing potential for salvaging the music program so that they and their peers could more fully enter into the spirit of worship? Who walks away from a conversation while the other side is still intently listening and responding to what they are saying?

It takes at least two parties to create an impasse. One to set up immovable barriers and the other to insist that the barriers be moved. Although many people can probably cite instances where it was absolutely necessary to draw a line in the sand and take whatever steps necessary to keep it from being crossed, I suspect we deal much more with barriers perceived to be immovable and a sense of unconcern for those who have a problem with those barriers than any true boundaries that we must maintain for spiritual, ethical, or safety issues. The color of the carpet has never fallen into such a category and has yet to be the true issue when someone leaves the church.

Which leads to another question: Why am I, a born hanger-onner and 33-year member of a single church, investing so many words supporting those who find it impossible to stay? Somehow, I just can't find it in my heart to say, "Well, obviously the problem lies with them rather than us. Good riddance. We're better off without them." If I hear someone say that about someone else today, I will know there's a good chance I will be the one bruising my shins against that level of hardness in their heart tomorrow.

Marsha

[Marsha Lynn]

When that happens to me (as a pastor) I find/create something positive/new and make a huge deal about it. The key is to get people thinking about what's good about the future for us. Yesterday, in the mail, I received a kindly written thank you note from a member, it meant the world to me and filled my sails. Yesterday I also talked to another pastor and just in talking about ministry he inspired me.

So you don't address the wounded hearts of those left behind in any direct fashion? You simply divert their attention from their pain by introducing something new? I guess if it's an effective solution, I'm interested. Maybe it's subtle enough people don't notice the correlation to the departure. However, when you lay it out like this it seems a little like bringing home a new puppy the day after you slipped the old dog off to the vet to be put down while the kids were at school. How well that works would depend a multiple factors.

[Roy Richardson]

So you don't address the wounded hearts of those left behind in any direct fashion? You simply divert their attention from their pain by introducing something new? I guess if it's an effective solution, I'm interested. Maybe it's subtle enough people don't notice the correlation to the departure. However, when you lay it out like this seems a little like bringing home a new puppy the day after you slipped the old dog off to the vet to be put down while the kids were at school. How well that works would depend a multiple factors.

Ouch

As others have said, unless people are willing to be honest about what is bothering them enough to leave, you are left grasping at straws. We can't allow that to detract from the mission of God. Jesus lost people along the way, and I'm sure it hurt. But he was focused on his task. Paul had some people fall to the wayside too, and I'm sure the other apostles did too.

If they are willing to talk, then let's talk. If they are not, do we really have time to chase them and try to figure out what is going on?

I know some folks who are pillars of our church are unhappy with the church direction right now. It is because we are moving into a high invitation AND high challenge culture, instead of the high invitation/low challenge culture that was previously in place. I know I will lose people who will not like this way of "doing" church. But I am firmly convinced that we are called to do more than hold down a chair/pew in the event of a gravitational anomaly in our worship space on Sunday morning. Christianity is so much more than this.

[Peggy Gray]

unless people are willing to be honest about what is bothering them enough to leave, you are left grasping at straws.

Just an observation, but the pillars I've known over the years (in my church and others) who have left rarely left for happy reasons, i.e., "the Lord has told us our work here is done and He has called us to another ministry". Rarely (if ever) has anyone publicly stated, "We are leaving because...." If they announced they were leaving for greener pastures or because they didn't like the change in direction, they surely announced it to a small audience. Years ago, a woman and her family left following a doctrinal statement concerning tongues. Her take: "If my Pentecostal grandmother wouldn't have been welcome here, then I can't be here either." That WAS addressed in a church board meeting, but she was convinced of her interpretation and never came back. In another instance, a man confided in me that he felt his presence would always be perceived as a challenge to the "church boss", and his family left because he felt conflict would be inevitable and unavoidable. Their public reason for leaving was to unite with a church a shorter distance from their home. Most people in the core group knew the real deal, but it was never discussed openly. Sometimes people aren't willing to be honest, but sometimes they aren't willing to be public. I agree, however, that not officially knowing the departees' reasoning leaves the rest of the church grasping at straws. Unfortunately, in a rural area such as ours, leaving the church generally means leaving the denomination as well, which adds another dimension to the issue.

[Sarah Smith]

I guess maybe I am obtuse, but I still don't see the sin or divisiveness in leaving when you realize you are at cross purposes with the leadership of a church.

We came to a distinctly sacramental faith after long following the more distinctly revivalist style. (Revivalist at heart, we find the liturgical worship "elsewhere" actually more in line with our revivalist theology.)

The church we left was one that made it clear they were trying to engender goosebump moments through song, prayer, and preaching. They are very successfully reaching some folks that will not be reached otherwise.

But we had come to dread church and found ourselves criticizing everything about it. After some time of prayer and letting God lead, we were surprised by where we found a "home" and can minister openly and directly without bucking the leadership. And we find ourselves successfully reaching some neighbors that probably will always be turned off by rock concert goosebump aimed worship.

We still love our former church family, just spent time today with our former pastor, and will be helping out with some special events this summer.

But come Sunday we will be over at a distinctly liturgical church, where we can also love and serve. (I might add both congregations, different denoms, help each other out a LOT.)

[Ryan Scott]

I'm not sure how best to handle such a situation, but I do think its an indication we're not doing well enough in communicating the form and purpose of the Church and the nature and responsibilities of membership.

We're a family - not a service provider or a social club. A congregation is a group of people called to do life together in the name of Christ. This does and should become a real family - taking priority over all other attachments and relationships in life. We are stuck with each other - just getting up and leaving isn't an option.

When we join the Church we're covenanting with God the same way we do in a marriage; walking away is not an option.

Now the local congregation is not equal to the Church, but it is a group of people called to do life together. If you feel there's a problem or theological issue that you can no longer support, have a conversation about it. At the same time, the congregation should not be defensive if people change and really don't belong anymore.

It was brought up that pastors move, springing surprise turmoil on the congregation in the same way. I think that's equally problematic - we pastors should be called to the same kind of accountability. If we really think God is calling us elsewhere, then our congregation, our family, should be able to evaluate and affirm the call and send us off with blessing.

In a society of consumers we view the congregation as a service provider, something we consume - like any store or team or club, when we're unhappy we shop for a new one. We need to reclaim membership as analogous to marriage - if you're not prepared to make that level of commitment, you're welcome to worship with us, but you won't be a member or a leader.

When someone who's been intimately involved in the congregation just picks up and leaves, then it tells me, as pastor, I've not done my job in communicating what it means to participate in the body of Christ in this local setting. As a lay person, I might evaluate my own interactions and attitude towards my fellow parishioners and see if I've really treated them as family (as people we can't separate ourselves from, even if we don't like them).

[Marsha Lynn]

I guess maybe I am obtuse, but I still don't see the sin or divisiveness in leaving when you realize you are at cross purposes with the leadership of a church.

We came to a distinctly sacramental faith after long following the more distinctly revivalist style. (Revivalist at heart, we find the liturgical worship "elsewhere" actually more in line with our revivalist theology.)

The church we left was one that made it clear they were trying to engender goosebump moments through song, prayer, and preaching. They are very successfully reaching some folks that will not be reached otherwise.

But we had come to dread church and found ourselves criticizing everything about it. After some time of prayer and letting God lead, we were surprised by where we found a "home" and can minister openly and directly without bucking the leadership. And we find ourselves successfully reaching some neighbors that probably will always be turned off by rock concert goosebump aimed worship.

We still love our former church family, just spent time today with our former pastor, and will be helping out with some special events this summer.

But come Sunday we will be over at a distinctly liturgical church, where we can also love and serve. (I might add both congregations, different denoms, help each other out a LOT.)

I think both you and Susan Unger and now Dan in this thread have shared legitimate reasons for moving on to a healthier and more nourishing church setting. I'm surprised by the hard attitude against such moves being expressed in this thread. It does help me, however, to better grasp that some of the words that aren't being spoken locally probably have that same harsh tone, even though we are talking about people who were beloved (though fading) members of the church family just a few weeks ago.

Lord, forgive us for the the way we as parishioners suck the grace out of the heart of our shepherd/pastors and leave them with hard patches where scar tissue has formed over too many wounds¡ <-*

Marsha

*Note: I write prayers. I have dozens of notebooks filled with prayers from the past 30 years. I long ago decided we need a punctuation mark for petitionery sentences. An ordinary period makes them look too much like commands rather than requests. I chose an upside-down exclamation mark and have used it for years. This is the first time I have pulled it out in public, but the prayer seemed to need it.

[Sarah Smith]

Marsha, don't know if this will make sense or not, but for some, the music issue is not about "the music." Doesn't matter how intently people are willing to listen and compromise IF the issue is the whole theology of worship.

When we realized we had moved to a sacramental understanding of worship, centered not in what we do for God or in how we respond to the service, but in receiving what God was freely bringing to the service to give us, it didn't matter if our then pastor suddenly switched to "our" music or not. It didn't matter if he toned down the volume. It didn't matter if he had done everything exactly the way we wanted it done. We were still at cross purposes of the theology of worship.

I don't consider joining a church the moral vow equivilent of marriage. I DO consider my relationship with Jesus Christ as an even higher commitment than marriage.

I will NEVER join any group of human beings with the understanding that I must never ever leave no matter what. Jesus made it clear that EVEN the family relationships might have to be sacrificed to follow Him. I seriously doubt He views any duly incorporated charitable giving organization above the family.

I too don't get the harsh attitude towards those leaving as long as those leaving are not trying to stir up trouble.

Suppose I were still in our local CotN and the pastor suddenly "converted" to preaching the TULIP. Suppose the board agreed, as did most of the members. Would I be expected to just stay and "work it out" if over time it became clear this church no longer adhered to CotN teaching and wasn't going to change?

For some the issues of today are just that large and looming. Long time holiness people, long time Wesleyan people, long time strongly evangelical people may find the same name over the door but believe what they believe has been tossed in the ash can.

It some ways it doesn't matter if they are right or if they are wrong. They must follow our Lord as best they understand what it means to follow Him.

And maybe instead of judging them we should bid them Godspeed and find out how we can best help them find their niche again.

Instead of hurt feelings and "what is wrong with them or us that they would leave" we need to forget how much that leaving tithe is gonna hurt (insert sacrcasm) and rejoice at their new mission field.

[Doug Ward]

Which leads to another question: Why am I, a born hanger-onner and 33-year member of a single church, investing so many words supporting those who find it impossible to stay? Somehow, I just can't find it in my heart to say, "Well, obviously the problem lies with them rather than us. Good riddance. We're better off without them." If I hear someone say that about someone else today, I will know there's a good chance I will be the one bruising my shins against that level of hardness in their heart tomorrow.

Marsha

Marsha, I do not think we ever say good riddance, we are better off. However, that does not mean the problem does not reside on one side. It only takes one to walk away. It only takes one to look for a reason to divide.

[Billy Cox]

It has happened again. Long-time, fully vested members of the church have announced they are leaving. The only reason for this I've heard is that they "don't like the direction the church is heading."

That seems to be shorthand for, "the pastor and/or leadership made a decision that I disagree with and my point of view was not taken into consideration or was too quickly dismissed."

While you feel that your relationship has been tossed aside lightly, keep in mind that the people leaving did not try to leverage that relationship to force the pastor out or to pressure the pastor into changing his mind. Did these people break fellowship? Perhaps, but leadership also broke fellowship by making a decision and not properly managing the relationship(s) that were imperiled by that decision.

Keep in mind that pillar of the church types don't leave overnight. It's likely that they have worked the Matthew 18 process probably past the point of resuscitation, and are now leaving when the 'patient' has assumed room temperature.

[Gene Tatsch]

It seems as if every organization has communication difficulties - and Christians had theirs early (Acts 6). I'm one of the "leavers" and as I think on my journey and read responses, I perceive that the organized church does miserably at genuine communication, does very poorly at fostering love for God and for the brothers, does very poorly at educating congregants how to walk as a disciple of Jesus. All of these are far more difficult than proclamations (sermons, lecture-type class teaching). So we are innoculated against the core goals of the Father (love God with all our being and our neighbor as ourselves; love the brothers as Christ loves His Church; making disciples of Jesus) - which IMO would foster speaking the truth in love to each other.

[Alisa Stoll]

1) As an adult I have left two churches. The first was not long after Ken and I got married and started going to the Nazarene church closest to our apartment. For the first quarter I was still in college in another city and we had things to do related to packing things up/getting wedding pics/etc. so we missed about 1 out of 3 services at that church. We were very vocal (as in contributing answers, thoughts, ideas) in Sunday School. Yet not once did anyone in that class say I missed you last Sunday. Once fall quarter was completed, we were there more often but still probably missed 1 of 4 due to visiting family. That spring we attended a service at another Nazarene church because the new fellowship hall was being dedicated to Ken's grandfather - we felt at home there as Ken had spent years in that church as a young lad. We quietly left the first church without saying anything and nothing was said to us. We were at the second church until our children were in 1st and 2nd grade so roughly 10 years. At that time the sound level was such that I could not worship without getting a headache. We had let the pastor know the problem and continued to attend for at least 6 months. At the end of the musical that our kids were participating in, we approached the pastor and let him know that we were leaving to find a church where we could worship as a family and wished him well. We have been at the third church for over 20 years. In looking back - the second move was probably God led because our kids had a much easier time inviting their friends to our church when it was closer and the church provided bus service after school to teen night.

2) We have lost a number of people because of our decision to do Sunday morning services bi-lingual. We trust our senior pastor that this was God led and knew when we made the decision that we would likely loose people who did not want to worship that way. Those that we have lost, the senior pastor has spoken with and typically shares the information with the board. The key is that most of whom we have lost we know go to other churches where they can serve and those we are reaching by being bi-lingual may not go to church if it isn't being spoken in their native language (Spanish). We also have other native tongues who choose our church because they feel welcomed and a lot of families where two cultures have blended. It is still sad when we loose a family - especially a core family - but we know we are following God's lead and it would be worse to keep those families and not follow God.

Alisa

[Peggy Gray]

When we join the Church we're covenanting with God the same way we do in a marriage; walking away is not an option.

Now the local congregation is not equal to the Church, but it is a group of people called to do life together.

I can read your phrase "do life together" in at least two different ways. Are you saying that joining a congregation (or a denomination, for that matter) is a lifetime commitment? 'Til death do us part?

[Kyle Borger]

Although I have just recently started serving on staff as a pastor I have encountered the fall out from people leaving. There are usually hurt feelings and bad communication. In one instance a fair number of people left the church because the pastor was asked to leave. As a board member it was very trying. We even had instructions from the DS to not discuss the situation with our spouses so that we could protect the pastor. However, this did not prevent the pastor from expressing his view of the events. The circumstances are confidential and 7 years later still can't be discussed here; but there was a lot of hurt to go around. People left because they thought the board was being unfair, mean spirited, and some believed down right evil. The pastor in question is no longer a pastor, but no matter. There were those who chose to ignore the relationships they had with board members for decades and followed the pastor who had little more than 2 years with them. Although I must admit that I found some humor in watching a former GS dress down the pastor after he had used the pulpit to attack the board and anyone else who questioned him. (Word of advice...If you are going to (**Confidential**) it is also wise to not have a former DS on staff and a former GS as a member.)

I left my church of 16 years after much prayer. I had been wanting to leave for years because the manner in which I wanted to serve God just wasn't available there. I had served to the greatest of my ability 3 different pastors but I knew I was supposed to do more. God finally released me. It was painful especially since I was leaving actual family. I still consider that church to be my church and they are my family. They have been gracious enough to view us as going to a new church in ministry and so we are comfortable when visiting and look forward to the opportunities.

The last church I served for over 5 years before being called away to a pastoral position. It was also difficult but not as much because we were moving and entering into official pastoral ministry.

I do agree that sometimes lay ministers are called from one church to another. This is made easier when there are multiple churches in your denomination in one area.

I know there will be a time when someone leaves the church I serve because of something I did, said, or thought. That will hurt the worst, but I will find some way to at least attempt to communicate that I love them and that I hope that they continue to serve God where ever they choose to live in community.

[Billy Cox]

I know there will be a time when someone leaves the church I serve because of something I did, said, or thought. That will hurt the worst, but I will find some way to at least attempt to communicate that I love them and that I hope that they continue to serve God where ever they choose to live in community.

It's sad when someone feels the only avenue left for them is to leave. It is similar to a divorce in so many ways; the church friends are left feeling like the children of divorce, when the offending relationship was likely between the person leaving and the pastor. There is the temptation for the pastor to trash the leaving person/family to build him/herself up and vice versa.

[Susan Unger]

It is similar to a divorce in so many ways; the church friends are left feeling like the children of divorce, when the offending relationship was likely between the person leaving and the pastor.

That's a good way of putting it. I have often felt like this especially at my former church.

[Billy Cox]

That's a good way of putting it. I have often felt like this especially at my former church.

Several years ago when I was at a church plant, a man and his wife accepted Christ and he professed a call to ministry. The pastor was gung ho about this (as most pastors would be) and guided him on the track to get local licensed. I remember seeing the local minister's license show up in the church office...and then it stayed there for weeks and then months. The man and his family just disappeared from the life of the church and when I asked about it, the pastor gave some kind of bogus response that reminded me of 'shoot the patient' reasoning.

A couple of years later, I was no longer affiliated with the church plant, and I happened to cross paths with the man who had suddenly disappeared. What caught me by absolute surprise was not his reason for leaving (something to do with thinking that the pastor only cared about money), but rather that he assumed that by virtue of my part-time staff position I was of one mind with the pastor, and would therefore be angry with him too.

[Steven Burton]

I know I left due to the fact that I could not be who I was and where I felt God taking me due to things that have been said during sermons. If one identifies with those who are depressed and those who are scholars then one might want to be careful not to bash them in your sermon and try to show how bad or wrong they are just because they take a different view of scripture than you. The thing about being orthodox in your beliefs is to also realize that their are other beliefs held that are also orthodox. That is why there are church fathers not just one father. And as one who suffers from depression/anxiety I find it hard in the south to find a church that will actually work with you instead of pointing fingering at you.