CN list of approved books and Bible translations

[Roy Richardson]

I've been trying to follow the CN FB site because I'm hearing some of their stuff from people who have recently joined our tribe. I really don't like to spend time with negative folks, but I suspect I need to be at least conversant in the issues they are raising in case they come up.

FYI - I have no interest in debating the CN issues here. Moderator, if that happens, please stick a fork in this thread.

What I am looking for are automatic red flags in authors and Bible translations.

Bibles

I gather they are not NRSV fans. I don't "push" it from the pulpit, but I preach from it, the NIV, the CEB, the HCSB and occasionally the NASB.

Are any of these besides NRSV and CEB considered to be "emergent" or "New Age" translations?

Authors

Obviously Len Sweet, Brennan Manning, anyone named Middendorf, Brian McLaren, Rob Bell, Doug Pagitt, Tony Jones, Tony Campolo are verboten. Is there anyone else that I should be watching out for?

I know the issues with The House Studio. Any other NPH- related things other than Lectio Divina?

I'm just trying to avoid starting conflagrations unnecessarily. I don't mind conflict that is productive, like iron sharpening iron. What I don't want is a trench war of attrition.

Thanks for your help.

[Dan Henderson]

Do you want me to ask?

[Charles W Christian]

They are turning on themselves a bit, mostly over the recent bashing of Dan Bohi by Tim and Manny. Chuck M. and several others have left over this! They felt (ironically) that the attacks were unfair toward Dan and they were too one-sided (again, very ironic). Also, those leaving basically said that if God is not with Dan Bohi's ministry, it will fail on its own; but if God is with him, the CNs should "leave him alone". (Yes, still IRONIC)....

CWC

[Dan Henderson]

Nina Gunter, Dallas Willard, and Richard Foster are objectionable for various reasons. I have not heard any objections to the NRSV in the core group, its just not a favorite. The main issue with Bible translations come from the KJV only crowd and is not typical of the core group CN.

[Greg Farra]

Is there a link to the page of objectionable books and bibles?

[Dan Henderson]

Is there a link to the page of objectionable books and bibles?

There is no list, just conversations like here.

[Roy Richardson]

Do you want me to ask?

If you feel up to it. Their definition of "New Age" and mine are different. Their take on anything other than the KJV and mine appear to be different. And I'm not a member of their FB club.

Thanks Dan

[Greg Farra]

There is no list, just conversations like here.

was that on their site, or facebook page?

[Roy Richardson]

Nina Gunter, Dallas Willard, and Richard Foster are objectionable for various reasons. I have not heard any objections to the NRSV in the core group, its just not a favorite. The main issue with Bible translations come from the KJV only crowd and is not typical of the core group CN.

Quoting from a Dave Mosher (no idea who the "core" folks are) on Bible translations "Also, for individuals looking for a church to join, it would be helpful for them to learn what Bible version the pastor pushes. If a pastor recommends The Message, or The Voice, or any other Emerging/ Emergent/New Age version, I would say "get out of your pew, run out the door and go visit another church."

Is the NRSV New Age? I don't "push" a translation. I just prefer ones written within the last 100 years without archaic language. But that is my preference.

Duh. I should have recognized that anything by the Renovare' folks would be considered heretical as well. Gunter stumps me, since she mounted the charge against the "Emerging Church" at M7.

[Roy Richardson]

was that on their site, or facebook page?

FB page

[Jon Bemis]

Is the NRSV New Age? I don't "push" a translation. I just prefer ones written within the last 100 years without archaic language. But that is my preference.

What would make a translation "New Age?" Just wondering.

[Dan Henderson]

If you feel up to it. Their definition of "New Age" and mine are different. Their take on anything other than the KJV and mine appear to be different. And I'm not a member of their FB club.

Thanks Dan

KJV only group is a fringe not representative of CN. New age is not a term being used right now, that is sooooo '70s. The authors are called out based on their ideas. If you've read my posts, probably more than half of them are about proper communication. Terms such as emergent will bring up different word pictures for different people. For CN's it will bring up Brian McClaren. No amount of you trying to change that definition will matter. For any communication, it is the sender's responsibility to ensure they are understood. If you want to be understood, don't use confusing and especially popularly defined terms unless that is how you want to be understood. Find another way to communicate your concept. Communicators do not self-define terms. Communicators speak in the language of the audience.

This the vast majority of the problems we are dealing with right now. Make no mistake, we have some serious issues in the Church that need to be dealt with, but communications is the main issue.

[Roy Richardson]

KJV only group is a fringe not representative of CN. New age is not a term being used right now, that is sooooo '70s. The authors are called out based on their ideas. If you've read my posts, probably more than half of them are about proper communication. Terms such as emergent will bring up different word pictures for different people. For CN's it will bring up Brian McClaren. No amount of you trying to change that definition will matter. For any communication, it is the sender's responsibility to ensure they are understood. If you want to be understood, don't use confusing and especially popularly defined terms unless that is how you want to be understood. Find another way to communicate your concept. Communicators do not self-define terms. Communicators speak in the language of the audience.

This the vast majority of the problems we are dealing with right now. Make no mistake, we have some serious issues in the Church that need to be dealt with, but communications is the main issue.

FYI - I lifted 'New Age" right off of the CN FB discussion - see Mr. Mosher's posts, Mr. Bechtel's posts, and Ms. Eastwood's posts.

I completely agree on clarity in communication. Prior to ministry, I was in PR for 20+ years. Communication is more than just talking or writing or broadcasting. At some point it needs to be received or it is just noise.

[Dan Henderson]

FYI - I lifted 'New Age" right off of the CN FB discussion - see Mr. Mosher's posts, Mr. Bechtel's posts, and Ms. Eastwood's posts.

I completely agree on clarity in communication. Prior to ministry, I was in PR for 20+ years. Communication is more than just talking or writing or broadcasting. At some point it needs to be received or it is just noise.

Sorry, I'm banned from that page FB page so I don't/can't monitor it. I am a CN by the way.

[Bill Morrison]

I have enjoyed the tenor of discussion in this thread so far from those on all sides of the issue. I have learned some things. (If the conversation makes a wrong turn from here, remember I said this on post #15 of the thread!

BILL

[Greg Farra]

Sorry, I'm banned from that page FB page so I don't/can't monitor it. I am a CN by the way.

You were banned on the CN page?

[Roy Richardson]

Sorry, I'm banned from that page FB page so I don't/can't monitor it. I am a CN by the way.

I know you are. Is John Henderson related to you? Given his lack of agreement with the bandwagon there, he may get bounced as well.

It's sad that people behave that way. I just don't have time in my life for that. I'm half-dead (45 this summer) and I don't have that much time to waste in arguments with people who will shut out people like you. Sometimes you are a bit dogmatic for my taste, but I still love you and listen to you. Maybe it's that "grace and peace" thing I was talking about on another thread.

I really believe that God expects us to try to create a culture of grace and peace whenever possible.

[Dan Henderson]

I know you are. Is John Henderson related to you? Given his lack of agreement with the bandwagon there, he may get bounced as well.

It's sad that people behave that way. I just don't have time in my life for that. I'm half-dead (45 this summer) and I don't have that much time to waste in arguments with people who will shut out people like you. Sometimes you are a bit dogmatic for my taste, but I still love you and listen to you. Maybe it's that "grace and peace" thing I was talking about on another thread.

I really believe that God expects us to try to create a culture of grace and peace whenever possible.

He is my dad. Looks like he will be put in retired, unassigned status at this years Dist Assy. He won't get bounced. He can say what I feel and be understood much better.

Thanks for the complement, I try to listen to where people are coming from. Some things I have little taste or patience for: "they" and "them" are triggers for me as well as anything that looks or smells like existentialism or nihilism (SP?). Triger phrases or "fighing words" generally are those categories that are used in a derogatory manner such a "fundie". Jihad and terrorist in the context of these conversations are especially offensive, I've moved hundreds of real victims just this week.

[Roy Richardson]

He is my dad. Looks like he will be put in retired, unassigned status at this years Dist Assy. He won't get bounced. He can say what I feel and be understood much better.

Thanks for the complement, I try to listen to where people are coming from. Some things I have little taste or patience for: "they" and "them" are triggers for me as well as anything that looks or smells like existentialism or nihilism (SP?). Triger phrases or "fighing words" generally are those categories that are used in a derogatory manner such a "fundie". Jihad and terrorist in the context of these conversations are especially offensive, I've moved hundreds of real victims just this week.

One of the most useful college classes I have taken are in logic and rhetoric. I have little time for "straw man" arguments and divisive arguments that you describe. We have much much bigger fish to fry as the Body of Christ.

[Roy Richardson]

I have enjoyed the tenor of discussion in this thread so far from those on all sides of the issue. I have learned some things. (If the conversation makes a wrong turn from here, remember I said this on post #15 of the thread!

BILL

I do too Bill. I appreciate the lack of sarcasm as well from all who have posted. I had to go back an edit a comment because it wasn't going to sound right and it would unnecessarily inflame things. I chalked it up to fatigue and the surgery I had on Monday that still has me taking Vicodin every 4 hours.

Impaired judgment on my part that I was able to catch and delete. Thanks be to God.

[Paul DeBaufer]

Sorry, I'm banned from that page FB page so I don't/can't monitor it. I am a CN by the way.

Wait, you're a CN and banned from their FB page. Isn't that their main hang-out? Are you sure you're not a cN, rather than a CN?

[Michael Flowers]

The book "Faith Undone" might be able to give you a better idea of authors and other things which would be found objectionable.

[Jim Chabot]

I think that you have a pretty good list of things or folks to avoid. I wouldn't worry much about versions of Scripture, I don't think that the CN's are version averse. Scripture is where they want to be, not what they want to avoid. Dan is right, the KJV only comments come mainly from one who is outside our church and is there to goad them on. I've talked with Manny about him and he realizes that this fellow is not nor does he speak for Nazarenes. I'm a CN as well. ALthough maybe I should say cN becuase I'm pleased as punch with my Pastor and church, I'm pretty happy and still friends with my previous Pastor and church, I really like our District Leadership and most of the Pastor's on our District.

I'm thinking that you have found the core of their objection in your list of authors and your mention of House studios.

[Roy Richardson]

thanks Jim. I think we all should be "concerned" in a 1 John sort of way. We need to test the spirits and not allow false teachers in our fellowship. What we have to be sure of is that what we are calling false teaching is heretical, and not just something that is different than our preferences.

[Benjamin Burch]

thanks Jim. I think we all should be "concerned" in a 1 John sort of way. We need to test the spirits and not allow false teachers in our fellowship. What we have to be sure of is that what we are calling false teaching is heretical, and not just something that is different than our preferences.

We also need to be accurate about the term "heresy." It refers, in a Christian context, specifically to Christological issues which, in one way or another, eschew the relationship of Divine and Human in Jesus, or to Trinitarian issues which, in one way or another, eschew the relationship between the members of the Trinity. There are a few which are not related to such issues (Origenism, Montanism, Pelagianism), but, again, we need to be accurate when speaking about them.

In a Nazarene context, it also refers to any continued teaching - after rebuke by an authoritative body - of doctrine which directly subverts or opposes official doctrine set out in the Manual.

In the CotN, if it does not meet these standards, it is not "heresy", and care should be taken to avoid this term.

[Bob Hunter]

I'm a CN as well. ALthough maybe I should say cN becuase I'm pleased as punch with my Pastor and church, I'm pretty happy and still friends with my previous Pastor and church, I really like our District Leadership and most of the Pastor's on our District.

It seems that would disqualify you from being a CN. As best I can tell they burn a lot of bridges. I don't sense that you are out to burn any bridges Jim.

[Jim Chabot]

It seems that would disqualify you from being a CN. As best I can tell they burn a lot of bridges. I don't sense that you are out to burn any bridges Jim.

We're not all bridge burners you know. It isn't a requirement.

Thanks for noticing.

[Dan Henderson]

As best I can tell they burn a lot of bridges.

Only the bridges that lead to nowhere.

[Charles W Christian]

The CN FB Page specifically calls The Message translation a translation with "New Age" language.... One post advises church members to "run" from churches where the pastor uses the Message in any way....

So much ignorance in one place is bound to have some turning upon one another, which is what we are seeing now. Instead of trying to figure out who is a "heretic" or who is "not a heretic" (by their inaccurate definitions, by the way), they eventually resort to trying to see which is the "most fundamentalist," which leads to chaos, which, again, is where they seem to be heading more and more. Our GS's and district leaders who have predicted their self-destruction seem to be proving correct so far.... Hopefully....

CWC

PS - Dan, I say this with all due respect to your dad, though I don't know him. I have seen his posts, and I do think they are way off, short-sighted, and often too accusatory! I respect the years of service he has given to the CotN, but I think he is making poor choices in his accusations and in his associations. The Bible says, "Bad company corrupts good character," and I fear this for your dad.... Just my opinion....

C

[Marsha Lynn]

What I am looking for are automatic red flags in authors and Bible translations.

Bibles

I gather they are not NRSV fans. I don't "push" it from the pulpit, but I preach from it, the NIV, the CEB, the HCSB and occasionally the NASB.

Are any of these besides NRSV and CEB considered to be "emergent" or "New Age" translations?

Authors

Obviously Len Sweet, Brennan Manning, anyone named Middendorf, Brian McLaren, Rob Bell, Doug Pagitt, Tony Jones, Tony Campolo are verboten. Is there anyone else that I should be watching out for?

I know the issues with The House Studio. Any other NPH- related things other than Lectio Divina?

I have found the Lighthouse Trails Research blog to be a good source for information.

The problem with building your ministry around being against things is you end up posting lists of all the stuff that most appeals to those you oppose. How nice of the Concerned Nazarenes to compile a list of suggested reading for "emergent" folks.

(Not that I fall into that category, of course. Just saying.)

[Billy Cox]

They are turning on themselves a bit, mostly over the recent bashing of Dan Bohi by Tim and Manny. Chuck M. and several others have left over this! They felt (ironically) that the attacks were unfair toward Dan and they were too one-sided (again, very ironic). Also, those leaving basically said that if God is not with Dan Bohi's ministry, it will fail on its own; but if God is with him, the CNs should "leave him alone". (Yes, still IRONIC)....

CWC

Schism breeds schism.

[Dan Henderson]

Schism breeds schism.

Does it itch?

[Dan Henderson]

Yesterday as I glanced at my bookshelf, my eyes went immediately to this book title. I forgot about it and it caught my eye again today. I don't remember who recommended it to me, I think my dad may have. From 1996, submitted for your consideration:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Death-Trut.../dp/1556617240

[Jon Bemis]

I've just got to say that I have serious reservations about avoiding certain books and materials just to keep one group happy. My experience is they'll eventually be unhappy anyway. As a pastor one of my roles is to teach and another is to lead. While I certainly want to use discernment and wisdom, I'm not sure that it's wise to cater to any one group.

[Dan Henderson]

I've just got to say that I have serious reservations about avoiding certain books and materials just to keep one group happy. My experience is they'll eventually be unhappy anyway. As a pastor one of my roles is to teach and another is to lead. While I certainly want to use discernment and wisdom, I'm not sure that it's wise to cater to any one group.

How about the group for which you are responsible? I agree that I have no obligation to keep anyone happy? I think Roy just doesn't want to broach conversations that will be controversial but not germain to his particular tasks. I think that's a pretty good idea. Rabble Rousing is my job.

[Roy Richardson]

How about the group for which you are responsible? I agree that I have no obligation to keep anyone happy? I think Roy just doesn't want to broach conversations that will be controversial but not germain to his particular tasks. I think that's a pretty good idea. Rabble Rousing is my job.

I'm trying to avoid unnecessary battles. There are some that are unavoidable, and others that are necessary. What I want to do is avoid a series of brush fires.

One CN bugaboo that I won't stop using is "missional" in relation to the work of the church. We absolutely have to focus on the mission of Christ, or missio dei, that we are called to fulfill. Otherwise, we are disobedient.

[Jon Bemis]

How about the group for which you are responsible?

The group for which I'm responsible is quite diverse. In my preaching and teaching I try to be diverse as well. I take very seriously my studies and preparation, and have not yet had someone suggest a list of books or topics I should stay away from (other than one gentleman in my last church who advised me to only use the "authorized" version of the Bible).

[Dan Henderson]

The group for which I'm responsible is quite diverse. In my preaching and teaching I try to be diverse as well. I take very seriously my studies and preparation, and have not yet had someone suggest a list of books or topics I should stay away from (other than one gentleman in my last church who advised me to only use the "authorized" version of the Bible).

Well, if it was good enough for Moses and Jesus, it should be good enough for your [deadpan expression]

[Michael Flowers]

I have found the Lighthouse Trails Research blog to be a good source for information.

The problem with building your ministry around being against things is you end up posting lists of all the stuff that most appeals to those you oppose. How nice of the Concerned Nazarenes to compile a list of suggested reading for "emergent" folks.

(Not that I fall into that category, of course. Just saying.)

Just be aware that Lighthouse doesn't always get their facts straight, nor do they find out the root information behind their facts. Their facts are what led to Manny bashing on ONU and Dr. Carl Leth a few months back and they really had failed to substantiate what they were saying.

In example: They said that the VP of Spiritual life listed Henri Nouwen as one of his favorite authors. While this is correct, they failed to note that the VP of Spiritual Life is a student council position (elected by a majority vote of the student body) with no actual institutional authority. Also, the VP they were referring to was not the current VP, nor was/is he a Nazarene either, coming instead out of a more reformed background.

Just a word of caution with how you treat information from a source such as Lighthouse, cause they aren't always as accurate as they seem.

[Marsha Lynn]

Just a word of caution with how you treat information from a source such as Lighthouse, cause they aren't always as accurate as they seem.

Thanks for this caution, Michael. It's good to have a concrete example of how information can contain a germ of truth (a student VP once expressed admiration for Henri Nouwen) while falling far short of supporting the conclusion drawn from it (Olivet officially endorses Henri Nouwen, which means Olivet is becoming Catholic like Henri Nouwen).

The way I have used this site is to try to skim past the negative words completely while focusing in on the actual resources they bring together -- books, videos, authors, speakers. In Roy's case, this can give him an idea of what might possibly set off alarms within his congregation. In the case of someone interested in digging deeper into subjects that concern the Concerned Nazarenes, it can be an excellent "what shall I read/watch next?" resource. If such a person has yet to encounter Henri Nouwen, it might be worth wading through the mud and gunk to discover him here. Sort of like dumpster diving in an area where people are tossing out gems along with their garbage because they see no value in them. It might be worth the stench to gather up the gems.