College a good investment...if you graduate

[Billy Cox]

According this slideshow and article the lowest graduation rates at public universities range from 4-15%.

The standard selling point for higher education is that college graduates earn far more money over a lifetime, but what about those who pay and/or borrow a significant amount of money to attend college, but who do not graduate? I wonder if a person with a high school diploma might be better off than someone with 2-3 years of a 4 year degree in any given subject.

It got me wondering about the graduation rate at the Nazarene schools. Is that information publicly available?

[Dan Henderson]

If you ask they will tell you. I did but I did not keep the information. Matriculation rate used to be published in a universities stats like you would be able to retreive from Petersens or US News and World Report lately. There are also attrition rates available but be careful, you cannot directly arrive at one from the other.

[Dave McClung]

According this slideshow and article the lowest graduation rates at public universities range from 4-15%.

The standard selling point for higher education is that college graduates earn far more money over a lifetime, but what about those who pay and/or borrow a significant amount of money to attend college, but who do not graduate? I wonder if a person with a high school diploma might be better off than someone with 2-3 years of a 4 year degree in any given subject.

It got me wondering about the graduation rate at the Nazarene schools. Is that information publicly available?

I don't have the statistics, but I would observe that many of those who do not stay in college until graduation come back and complete their degrees in "non-traditional programs." All of the Nazarene schools have strong "non-traditional" degree completion programs. I would guess that if you add the "non-traditional" graduates to the "traditional" graduates, graduation rates would be close to 100%. (Total graduates equal the number of freshmen four years ago.)

[Bill Morrison]

[QUOTE=Billy Cox;143587]According this slideshow and article the lowest graduation rates at public universities range from 4-15%.

The standard selling point for higher education is that college graduates earn far more money over a lifetime, but what about those who pay and/or borrow a significant amount of money to attend college, but who do not graduate? I wonder if a person with a high school diploma might be better off than someone with 2-3 years of a 4 year degree in any given subject.



My first random thoughts on this:

1. I would expect our rate at MNU (and other Nazarene schools) is quite a bit higher than that, but I don't have data in front of me. I am sure that information would be publicly available, in fact it may be required that it is reported to the government.
2. We also graduate many who come here after attending other schools for several years (and probably lose an equal number to other schools and eventual graduation). How do those figure in to the calculations?
3. I do think (everything else being equal) most people are better off with 2 or 3 years of any college than someone with just a high school diploma. If for no other reason, they are ready to later enter an adult degree completion program such as has been very popular at MNU and other places.
4. You raise an excellent point about all the borrowing and the situation that puts one in when they don't graduate. I feel for and get upset each year for those who just come to MNU to play sports and are not ready for our level of education. Not every high school grad is ready for college. (And I just use the athletes as an example, as there are many in that situation. I am also proud of ones e.g. like our football player who majored in Biology and after graduating from MNU was #1 in his freshman class at KU Medical School!)
5. And of course as a professor at a liberal arts institution I must say (and perhaps you too feel this way) that the "standard selling point for higher education" that it will get you more money, whether true or not, should not be our prime hook to get kids to go to college. Perhaps that is why we get too many that don't go on to graduation. I am thankful for what my college education at all levels (undergrad plus three graduate programs) has done to help me enjoy life, understand the world, and change me. I'm not at all sure I have made any more money than if I hadn't gone to college, but it has been more than worth it!

BILL

[Dan Henderson]

I am recalling when I asked Trevecca that they measured based on a 5 year matriculation and that the number is somewhere between 50% and 60%. If I am remembering correctly then our other colleges/universities should be similar.

I was also pleasantly surprised and impressed that the average debt for a Trevecca graduate is around $10k. That is much lower than I expected.

[Dave McClung]

[QUOTE=Bill Morrison;143596

...I'm not at all sure I have made any more money than if I hadn't gone to college, but it has been more than worth it!

BILL[/QUOTE]

When I was president of ENC, I quoted the statistics about the value of a college degree often because it is something one can quantify. But, I would also argue that even if one didn't personally earn more money, the additional eduation would be worth the cost and effort.

I once taught a class in ethics. In one session the case study was a retired person who decided to learn to play the piano. She didn't expect to earn any money and had no plans to perform. She only wanted to learn to play for her personal fulfillment. After a lot of discussion the class agreed that "personal fulfillment" is worth time and effort even if it doesn't result in any additional income or recognition.

At 68, I still do a lot of study. It is highly unlikely that additional study will have any impact on income, life style or even personal accomplishment. Still, I believe the additional study is worth the time, cost and effort.

[Ryan Scott]

You do also have to remember that graduation rates are counted only if you graduate in four years. If you're going part time or take an extra year (something a lot of majors require these days) you're going to be counted as not graduated for these statistics.

For sports purposes, the NCAA counts graduation rates in six years (I guess to make themselves look a little better). My guess is that the state school rate is low because they have a lot of people going slowly or maybe taking some one off courses - at least this is more likely than at pricier private institutions.

[Ryan Scott]

I do agree that graduation is the key - which makes student retention the best place for a school to invest. I don't think it's ethical to get students into debt for school if you don't think they can finish - this is how a lot of the for-profit school that advertise on TV make their money.

[Ryan Scott]

Just for reference, here is the top four-year graduation rates for US universities and colleges. No one has a 100% rate, even Harvard is "only" at 87%.

http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandre...hest-grad-rate

[Ryan Scott]

You can look the grad rates up on the USNews site individually:

ENC - 47%
TNU - 35%
MVNU - 43%
ONU - 49%
MNU - 33%
NNU - 40%
PLNU - 64%
SNU - 29%

I believe graduation rates also exclude transfers - so even if a student graduates in four years, but graduates from another school, it doesn't count. It's a very specific measurement. You can take it as you will, but there are lots of reasons for lower graduation rates.

When it comes to these Nazarene schools, I think, just based on guessing and experience, that the graduation rates are probably influenced heavily by transfer rates.

[Dave McClung]

...I don't think it's ethical to get students into debt for school if you don't think they can finish - ...

I strongly disagree. What gives you or me the right to judge who will or will not finish? I think it is unethical to exclude someone from education because they might fail. Giving people opportunity is the important thing.

Have you ever heard the life story of Dan West, who was chairman of the board of ENC? When he was in elementary school, a teacher formed the opinion that he just wasn't cut out for school. He was on a track to not even complete high school until a school counselor identified his potential and helped him get on the right track. He is now a successful dentist.

Even during my short time at ENC, I can tell you story after story of people's whos life was changed because they were given an opportunity.

As I said in a previous post, the financial outcome is just one of the important things about a college education. Even those who don't graduate benefit from their time at a Christian College.

PS: While I was at ENC, a person died and left his estate to ENC. He said, "I was only able to attend ENC for one year, but it was the best year of my life. I lived a better life because of that year."

[Ryan Scott]

I didn't mean to exclude them for academic reasons. I've met too many people who got loans for college and then couldn't get enough to cover year two or three or four. If you don't qualify for enough government aid to cover expenses and you can't get private funding to make up the difference, it usually means going to work - which can be a difficult financial situation once the first year's loan payments kick in.

Some financial aid reps know full well the student won't graduate without winning the lottery, but they encourage them to borrow anyway. That might be the right for some, but it's not for everyone - even if they can do the work.

Obviously, judging someone's ability to do the work is the job of admissions, not financial aid. Although I do think some of the for-profit schools purposely enroll people they know lack the skills to finish just to get their tuition money, which I maintain is unethical.

[Gina Stevenson]

Could not help but notice the highest percentage is no less than 15% more than the next one in line. To my way (not everyone's, I admit) of thinking, it would of course be easier to stick around a place such as PLNU than keep repeating the winter-horrors of walking across ONU's campus! Only went there b/c was not allowed (we had to be 21, not 18, to be "adult" back then) to go way across the country, as much as I wanted out of here. And where(!?!) am I living again, now stuck barring a miracle or how many years yet!? Learned again too late . . . .

You can look the grad rates up on the USNews site individually:

ENC - 47%
TNU - 35%
MVNU - 43%
ONU - 49%
MNU - 33%
NNU - 40%
PLNU - 64%
SNU - 29%

I believe graduation rates also exclude transfers - so even if a student graduates in four years, but graduates from another school, it doesn't count. It's a very specific measurement. You can take it as you will, but there are lots of reasons for lower graduation rates.

When it comes to these Nazarene schools, I think, just based on guessing and experience, that the graduation rates are probably influenced heavily by transfer rates.

[Ryan Scott]

I didn't record them all, but Point Loma also had, by far, the lowest acceptance rate of any of the Nazarene schools. Perhaps when it's more difficult to get in, there's more incentive to stick around?

[Gina Stevenson]

I didn't record them all, but Point Loma also had, by far, the lowest acceptance rate of any of the Nazarene schools. Perhaps when it's more difficult to get in, there's more incentive to stick around?

Probably could be part of it, too ... not everyone is a winter wimp like it seems I have always been.

[Billy Cox]

You do also have to remember that graduation rates are counted only if you graduate in four years. If you're going part time or take an extra year (something a lot of majors require these days) you're going to be counted as not graduated for these statistics.

For sports purposes, the NCAA counts graduation rates in six years (I guess to make themselves look a little better). My guess is that the state school rate is low because they have a lot of people going slowly or maybe taking some one off courses - at least this is more likely than at pricier private institutions.

The article acknowledged that graduation rates are a bit of a slippery metric. The stats in the article were based on those who begin and graduate within six years. Transfers out would not be included. Presumably transfers in would be.

[Bill Morrison]

I didn't record them all, but Point Loma also had, by far, the lowest acceptance rate of any of the Nazarene schools. Perhaps when it's more difficult to get in, there's more incentive to stick around?

That is true. MNU still has pretty much an open admissions policy. That may begin to change soon. On the other hand, I have heard that Olivet has decided to limit the size of their freshman class so they don't lose the desired community atmosphere we wish to build in our Christian schools.

BILL

[Billy Cox]

I didn't record them all, but Point Loma also had, by far, the lowest acceptance rate of any of the Nazarene schools. Perhaps when it's more difficult to get in, there's more incentive to stick around?

Or PLNU has enough prospective students that it can accept based on academic viability and not just based on who can cobble together the financing.

[Gina Stevenson]

Or PLNU has enough prospective students that it can accept based on academic viability and not just based on who can cobble together the financing.

Yes, with the soCAL area not being a small draw, they probably do have more from which to be choosy. And when kids can decide on their own now to go (the 18=adult thing), that has increased their pool, I would guess.

[Jim Franklin]

No guarentee. Spiiritually but not necessarily financially. I have seen well founded statistics that show that if I had dropped out of any formal education in1951 when I completed 8th grade that I would have had a better than even chance to make more over my lifetime than I have with a HS diploma, a BA from a Nazarene college, a Masters degree and all but 2 courses and a disertation for and Ed.D. I have tried to follow the Lord's leading each step of the way. Due to two bouts of rheumatic fever my HS principal concluded that I would not have the stamina to make it through college so he refused to allow me to take college prep courses such as chemistry, algebra, or advanced English. I was 53 before I broke above $10,000/yr and my highest pay was as a clerk at J.C. Penney at about $25K+/yr which certainly did not require a college degree. Many times during the 16 years between from 1972-88 from ages 35-53 I was turned down because I had post high school education.

I have a nephew who with no more than a HS. diploma makes close to $100,000/yr as a railroad engineer, a brother in law with an 8th grade education who makes far more than I have ever made as a "shade tree" mechanic. Other careers that pay well with no more than a HS diploma are court reporters (a friend was making $70,000/yr 20 years ago), medical technicians, etc.

I did have one government backed loan for the 1960-61 senior year for $1000 that was cancelled after I had taught 5 years.

[Ryan Scott]

Or PLNU has enough prospective students that it can accept based on academic viability and not just based on who can cobble together the financing.

They are a bit more academically choosy than most - and I suspect their acceptance rate has much more to do with the volume of applications than a desire to be exclusive.

One thing that was a bit interesting was how similarly tuition followed acceptance rate. The most exclusive of our Nazarene schools were also the most expensive - my thought is that when demand is high, tuition rates can reasonably be raised. Obviously location and cost of living have something to do with it - but the correlation was interesting.

[Benjamin Burch]

I didn't record them all, but Point Loma also had, by far, the lowest acceptance rate of any of the Nazarene schools. Perhaps when it's more difficult to get in, there's more incentive to stick around?

They probably also get some of the better students. I don't remember the statistics, but not only do they have the lowest acceptance rate, but they get far more applicants than any other Nazarene school, simply do to their location. One would assume that this means they get to pick who they want, and only who they want at their school, giving them the opportunity to pick students with a better potential for graduation --- again, while keeping in mind there is no way to know for sure if a student will fail.

[Billy Cox]

When I was president of ENC, I quoted the statistics about the value of a college degree often because it is something one can quantify. But, I would also argue that even if one didn't personally earn more money, the additional eduation would be worth the cost and effort.

Surely you would acknowledge that As the cost of higher education outpaces inflation and incomes, the pressure to realize a financial return will be more pronounced.

However, I agree that the formative aspect of the college experience goes far beyond career preparation...especially for those who go on to become lifelong learners.

[John Kennedy]

I'm reasonably sure that I wouldn't have been able to teach in CA for 36 years, so my total earnings were significantly higher than if I hadn't had a degree. I got a real bargain in college costs - most of my hours were from UT and I only paid $50/semester tuition. Living at home also made a significant differnece. I enjoyed my time at Bethany, but I did much better academically after I got to UT.

[Billy Cox]

They are a bit more academically choosy than most - and I suspect their acceptance rate has much more to do with the volume of applications than a desire to be exclusive.

Haha, that's pretty much what I said.

One thing that was a bit interesting was how similarly tuition followed acceptance rate. The most exclusive of our Nazarene schools were also the most expensive - my thought is that when demand is high, tuition rates can reasonably be raised. Obviously location and cost of living have something to do with it - but the correlation was interesting.

One could also say that more desirable locales correlate with higher operational costs as well as a willingness to pay higher tuition. Sometimes the spiral of causation is upward.

[Dan Henderson]

I think I tend to agree that education is a good thing regardless if the person attains a degree. I also don't think college debt is a good thing. College does not always equal superior education. I've often said that idiots are equally distributed through the ranks. I would guess that they are equally distribuded through the discliplines and between the so called educated and so called uneducated.

As I understand it and employer is likely to reckon that if you can stick with it and finish a 4 year degree that you are willing to stick with their taskings ... that you have the ability to work to completion. One is not necessarily hired because of their degree or their smarts, rather for their propensity for long-term commitment.

[Ken Tidwell]

This is a topic that comes up often since I teach at a public community college. The school sells the "greater" earning power by completing your degree. Which I do agree with. One of the problems I have is students who don't understand that that "greater" earning power is cumulative not instant. But the equation for those "greater" earnings often fails to take into account student loan debt as well as the effects of taking longer to complete the degree than a degree plan requires.

I recently had a conversation with a recruiter for a national company that makes steel cellular poles at our most recent job fair on campus. He flat out told me, they are not interested in hiring any candidate who doesn't finish their degree in 2-3 years (assoicate). I asked why and he stated that their HR questions the reliability and the dedication to accomplish tasks. I said it sounded a little harsh and asked what about life circumstances that may preclude earning their degree in that time frame. His response, "I don't really care. That sounds like a bunch of personal problems, and there are too many people looking for work who don't bring that kind of drama to our workplace."

My brother just graduate with a dual degree in Business Administration and Finance from the University of Houston twelve years after he graduated from high school. He told me that every job interview (six so far) has asked why it took so long to finish his degree. He has not received any call backs. He is still working at Starbucks and is considering taking an assistant manager job (which does not require a degree).

My point...although limited, is this, college is a good investment for future greater earnings, but I would add that how you complete it and the time frame in which it is done is also starting to play a role in hiring at least in my neck of the woods.

If one does not graduate, no one can place a value on personal enrichment, but very few will find anyone willing to pay them a steady paycheck based on the personal enrichment of some classes.

[Dan Henderson]

Ken I can attest to all of those. You are spot on. There are exceptions though. When I am asked that question as to why it took me a mere 16 years to complete an Bachelor's, most are left wondering how it was even possible for me to complete. It seems to be rather impressive to people and I'm not even a good story teller. Now if my brother were to tell it, it would probably be made into a miniseries ...

[Dave McClung]

If one does not graduate, no one can place a value on personal enrichment, but very few will find anyone willing to pay them a steady paycheck based on the personal enrichment of some classes.

The issue that the statistics just can't measure is the "network." I have been on the hiring end of the employment process for many years. At one point I was the chief Human Resources manager for a large company. The truth is that most people get hired because of they know someone who will recommend them.

Part of the value of getting a college education is that during that experience, one builds a network of contacts -- teachers, fellow students, alumni, etc. The person with the best network is the one who gets the jobs.

It has been my experience that even when people respond to a newspaper ad, the one who gets hired is the one who is recommended by a person with credibility. If you have a reference who also knows the person who is making the hiring decision, that is a big plus.

My point is simply that during the process of getting a degree, a person meets a lot of different people. That network is a major reason for the difference in earning ability.

[Dave McClung]

Ken I can attest to all of those. You are spot on. There are exceptions though. When I am asked that question as to why it took me a mere 16 years to complete an Bachelor's, most are left wondering how it was even possible for me to complete. It seems to be rather impressive to people and I'm not even a good story teller. Now if my brother were to tell it, it would probably be made into a miniseries ...

I was 29, almost 30, when I completed my education. Most of my classmates were 24. I have never felt that the 5 1/2 years I took out for military service hindered my career. I don't think that a delay in completing one's education is a hinderance as long as the reason is explainable.

[Dave McClung]

...keeping in mind there is no way to know for sure if a student will fail.

I think you and I agree that a student should not be denied an opportunity to succeed because someone thinks their chances of success aren't good, but it is possible to identify students who need extra help. Many students are arriving as freshmen in college without reading skills. I believe that when students are accepted to college who can't demonstrate skills in reading and math, they should be required to improve those skills before taking on the college work. The question is what is the right action for a Christian school, do they decline to accept a student who isn't ready or do they attempt to help students to get ready? For me the answer is the later.

[Steven Burton]

I think you and I agree that a student should not be denied an opportunity to succeed because someone thinks their chances of success aren't good, but it is possible to identify students who need extra help. Many students are arriving as freshmen in college without reading skills. I believe that when students are accepted to college who can't demonstrate skills in reading and math, they should be required to improve those skills before taking on the college work. The question is what is the right action for a Christian school, do they decline to accept a student who isn't ready or do they attempt to help students to get ready? For me the answer is the later.

Well most of them have programs in place to help students who come into college not on par with everybody else. They help them with school work as well as making sure they are on par with everybody else in their classes. Its called Student support services, or SSS. My roommate for two years was a part of that program.

[Billy Cox]

The issue that the statistics just can't measure is the "network." I have been on the hiring end of the employment process for many years. At one point I was the chief Human Resources manager for a large company. The truth is that most people get hired because of they know someone who will recommend them.

Part of the value of getting a college education is that during that experience, one builds a network of contacts -- teachers, fellow students, alumni, etc. The person with the best network is the one who gets the jobs.

It has been my experience that even when people respond to a newspaper ad, the one who gets hired is the one who is recommended by a person with credibility. If you have a reference who also knows the person who is making the hiring decision, that is a big plus.

My point is simply that during the process of getting a degree, a person meets a lot of different people. That network is a major reason for the difference in earning ability.

I wager that those who don't graduate probably don't realize any networking value either. As I think over my schoomates on Facebook and LinkedIn, I can't recall even one who quit or transferred out.

Just to be clear, I agree that the networking angle is a clear value, but it seems to be correlated with alums moreso than fellow classmates.