Is it as easy as Paul implies? Galatians 5:16-

[Gary Condon]

Is it as simple as merely merrily "walking in the Spirit" to avoid the "works of the flesh" and to attain the "fruit" of the Spirit?

I've observed only a handful of humans that seem to easily and naturally exist in the realm of "love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.

The rest of us, it seems, labor over resisting the temptations of the flesh and struggle to be able to consistently practice the fruit with our friends and neighbors.

For me, it has been a little like; what comes first, the chicken or the egg? Do I work at practicing the fruit of the Spirit thus assimilating a deeper relationship with the Spirit or should I "walk" closely with the Spirit and trust that the fruit will become a natural part of my life through the walk?

Maybe Paul needs to come to my house for coffee and explain in more detail what he meant in his letter.

In any case, if Galations 5 were the only subject of every Sunday sermon, it would be good enough for me.

[Doug Ward]

Gary,

Let me add a few thoughts. First, I doubt that you have observed anyone who easily and naturally live in the realm of the Spirit. I think these people have experienced the same struggles that you and I have. However, through experience, and walking obediently with God, you have observed the person who has been through the struggle, and is enjoying the fruits of their experience, and the trust they have learned through the years. They are not different than you or I.

Part of our issue is that we live and exist in a faith community that has mistakenly through the years taught a magic fairy dust version of what the Spirit does. Somehow, something is done instantaneously where our desires are changed, and where any hint of sin is eradicated. Then, we have struggles and assume there is either something wrong with us, or something wrong with this ridiculous, holiness thing.

it seems to me Paul had issues as well. He had a hot temper, and had strained relationships with James, Peter, Mark, and Barnabas. He had more than his share of pride, and seemed well aware of his own struggles. When Paul uses "Spirit" he is not encumbered with the history we take into the conversation. Paul is using this term in contrast with his opponents in Galatia who emphasized the role of the law. They said, "in order to be a follower of Christ, you have to be circumcised and avoid Sausage Pizza." Paul said, "no, you simply believe God, and you will be considered righteous." Well, how do you believe God, trust God, and follow God? His opponents said, follow the written law. Paul said no, walk according to the Spirit - the Spirit of Christ that lives in each of us. This is why he was so confident that "he who started the work will be faithful to complete it.

Here is the rub. We do not all complete at the same time, nor the same rate. Some of us are closer than others. Some have been through more than others. Some have learned to trust through tense times that you did not see, the Spirit of Christ. So now it looks easy and natural to you, but probably not to the people you observe - they are just further along, and have learned it is not about external striving, but simple trust.

[Gary Condon]

Doug, thank you for your response. Yes, I am familiar with some of the points you raise. For example, I found out that holiness as taught to me by my parent's peers had big problems within one week of my act of seeking sanctification (twenty one years of age). It didn't work at all according to the preaching and teaching. It's a good thing I didn't have a resentful nature. I laughed at the idea of entire sanctification (perfection) and moved on to a purposeful life time journey of seeking to live according to Christ's teachings...even though, as I indicated in my first post, there was laborious effort involved in trying to live out a semblance of that ideal as presented in Galatians or as Paul so beautifully writes in I Cor. 13.

It may be odd that I would even ask the question at my age (old). But one never gets tired of thinking about these things. I still maintain, though that it wouldn't hurt for the church to spend way more time on fruits of the Spirit, teachings of Christ and celebration of His life.

Your sort of saying, then, that to be able live the fruits of the Spirit before those who pass our way is some sort of process that we struggle with rather than a walk that miraculously transforms us. Right?

[Dale Cozby]

"It is hard to produce fruit without good soil, enough but not too much water, some wind but not a hurricane wind, and where the inseccts don't chew you up, the forest fires don't sweep you away and the guy with the hatchet doesn't chop too low or too deep.

Hard to be fruitful if you don't think about what it takes to be fruitful and then work at it." - The Branch

[Todd Erickson]

There weren't any solo Christians in Paul's day, but we do most of our fruit pursuit alone. Correlation?

[Gary Condon]

There weren't any solo Christians in Paul's day, but we do most of our fruit pursuit alone. Correlation?

I'm not sure about that. The fruits of the spirit are only beneficial when there is a recipient. And then there is the idea that I've been often pruned and thinned by my family and colleagues. Or maybe I've missed the meaning of your response.

[Steven Burton]

I think Todd is implying the way in which we have a hyper focus on individualism over community and how it has become pretty dominate in many churches.

[Gary Condon]

I think Todd is implying the way in which we have a hyper focus on individualism over community and how it has become pretty dominate in many churches.

I see and maybe you're right but in my life church is community and we intentionally work together that way. To me, Christianity isn't, without community.

[Billy Cox]

Is it as simple as merely merrily "walking in the Spirit" to avoid the "works of the flesh" and to attain the "fruit" of the Spirit?

I've observed only a handful of humans that seem to easily and naturally exist in the realm of "love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.

The rest of us, it seems, labor over resisting the temptations of the flesh and struggle to be able to consistently practice the fruit with our friends and neighbors.

For me, it has been a little like; what comes first, the chicken or the egg? Do I work at practicing the fruit of the Spirit thus assimilating a deeper relationship with the Spirit or should I "walk" closely with the Spirit and trust that the fruit will become a natural part of my life through the walk?

Maybe Paul needs to come to my house for coffee and explain in more detail what he meant in his letter.

In any case, if Galations 5 were the only subject of every Sunday sermon, it would be good enough for me.

I've long observed that every nine-week sermon series on the fruit(s) of the Spirit is one week short of communicating the whole picture. In other words, the series starts with love and ends with self control, and says little or nothing about the Spirit. It's like listening to a long-winded joke where the teller has forgotten the punchline.

[Ian Gentles]

Doug, thank you for your response. Yes, I am familiar with some of the points you raise. For example, I found out that holiness as taught to me by my parent's peers had big problems within one week of my act of seeking sanctification (twenty one years of age). It didn't work at all according to the preaching and teaching. It's a good thing I didn't have a resentful nature. I laughed at the idea of entire sanctification (perfection) and moved on to a purposeful life time journey of seeking to live according to Christ's teachings...even though, as I indicated in my first post, there was laborious effort involved in trying to live out a semblance of that ideal as presented in Galatians or as Paul so beautifully writes in I Cor. 13.

It may be odd that I would even ask the question at my age (old). But one never gets tired of thinking about these things. I still maintain, though that it wouldn't hurt for the church to spend way more time on fruits of the Spirit, teachings of Christ and celebration of His life.

Your sort of saying, then, that to be able live the fruits of the Spirit before those who pass our way is some sort of process that we struggle with rather than a walk that miraculously transforms us. Right?

I agree with you, in the sanctification taught to me wasnt obtained. For long years I have wrestled with the flesh, always yearning to be better, struggling to be nearer to God. I now see sanctification as a process that will last all my days on this earth. At least we can say, God is still at work in our lives.

[Gary Condon]

Billy, In the spirit of your analogy, I suffer from the opposite problem. My Pastors talk about the punchline without setting up the joke. I'm always looking for application and feel like I'm left hanging when practicality is missing. But that's my question isn't it? Which angle should I focus on? Thank you for your input.

I helped at a Spanish wedding several years ago. I was the only non-Spanish speaking person there. At the reception dinner, the emcee told several very interesting jokes. He set them up beautifully in English. Had me hanging on the edge of my seat. Then he would give the punchline in Spanish. The crowd would roar with laughter. Now I'm just hanging. I went home not knowing the answers to several great stories. That's sort of what you are saying.

[Dennis Bratcher]

I now see sanctification as a process that will last all my days on this earth. At least we can say, God is still at work in our lives.

Curtis Lewis summed up the Christian journey well in a sermon years ago: Process, Crisis, Process. I think there is a place for crisis. It's just not the end. As I have mentioned before, even Ken Grider, a staunch supporter of eradication theology for most of his life, eventually came to this conclusion late in life.

In a 1980s children's musical "Kids under Construction" the Gaithers sang a song written by Joel Hemphill, He's Still Workin' on Me. While the context is children, it's not bad theology in general (if you don't take it too literally).

He's still workin' on me, making me what I ought to be.

There really ought to be a sign upon my heart,
Don’t judge me yet there's an unfinished part,
But I'll be perfect just according to his plan,
Fashioned by the Master's loving hand.

In the mirror of His word
Reflections that I see
Makes me wonder why He never gave up on me
But He loves me as I am and helps me when I pray
Remember He's the potter; I'm the clay.

That seems to be what Paul had in mind in Philippians 3.

Grace and Peace,

Dennis B.

[Billy Cox]

Billy, In the spirit of your analogy, I suffer from the opposite problem. My Pastors talk about the punchline without setting up the joke. I'm always looking for application and feel like I'm left hanging when practicality is missing. But that's my question isn't it? Which angle should I focus on? Thank you for your input.

Yeah, now that you mention it, preaching the fruit as nine neat little packages is more like telling the punchline and leaving out all of the supporting details.

Galatians 5 is arguably about living in the Spirit instead of relying on religious formula, yet I have heard it preached with precisely the opposite life application. If the call to action in a sermon based on Galatians 5 is 'try harder' then we have missed the point at best, and obfuscated the meaning at worst.

[Ian Gentles]

I do beleive in crisis, pain often moves us closer to God. I have learnt more through pain than I ever learnt through happy praise sessions. In my experiance the advantages of suffering arent much preached about, todays christian wants blessings without the pain.

[Billy Cox]

I do beleive in crisis, pain often moves us closer to God. I have learnt more through pain than I ever learnt through happy praise sessions. In my experiance the advantages of suffering arent much preached about, todays christian wants blessings without the pain.

Since suffering and crisis are inevitable aspects of human experience, why would we need to go out of our way to find it??

[Gina Stevenson]

Curtis Lewis summed up the Christian journey well in a sermon years ago: Process, Crisis, Process. I think there is a place for crisis. It's just not the end. As I have mentioned before, even Ken Grider, a staunch supporter of eradication theology for most of his life, eventually came to this conclusion late in life.

In a 1980s children's musical "Kids under Construction" the Gaithers sang a song written by Joel Hemphill, He's Still Workin' on Me. While the context is children, it's not bad theology in general (if you don't take it too literally).

He's still workin' on me, making me what I ought to be.

There really ought to be a sign upon my heart,
Don’t judge me yet there's an unfinished part,
But I'll be perfect just according to his plan,
Fashioned by the Master's loving hand.

In the mirror of His word
Reflections that I see
Makes me wonder why He never gave up on me
But He loves me as I am and helps me when I pray
Remember He's the potter; I'm the clay.

That seems to be what Paul had in mind in Philippians 3.

Grace and Peace,

Dennis B.

Thanks for the reminder, Dennis. Hemphill's music is still around here somewhere.

Since suffering and crisis are inevitable aspects of human experience, why would we need to go out of our way to find it??

Oh, we don't go looking for it, Billy! It finds us without our looking for it, for sure.

[Ian Gentles]

Is it as simple as merely merrily "walking in the Spirit" to avoid the "works of the flesh" and to attain the "fruit" of the Spirit?

I've observed only a handful of humans that seem to easily and naturally exist in the realm of "love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.

The rest of us, it seems, labor over resisting the temptations of the flesh and struggle to be able to consistently practice the fruit with our friends and neighbors.

For me, it has been a little like; what comes first, the chicken or the egg? Do I work at practicing the fruit of the Spirit thus assimilating a deeper relationship with the Spirit or should I "walk" closely with the Spirit and trust that the fruit will become a natural part of my life through the walk?

Maybe Paul needs to come to my house for coffee and explain in more detail what he meant in his letter.

In any case, if Galations 5 were the only subject of every Sunday sermon, it would be good enough for me.

Me also, Paul is welcome for coffee any day.
Did those early christians have something we havent? I often ask myself.
I would be perfect if, I didnt have a temper, I could forgive easily, etc etc etc etc

[Dale Cozby]

Me also, Paul is welcome for coffee any day.
Did those early christians have something we havent? I often ask myself.
I would be perfect if, I didnt have a temper, I could forgive easily, etc etc etc etc

They had quiet. We have radios, TV, Internet, printed papers, magazines, a plethora of books, phones, cell phones, global communication, cars, trains, planes, and ships. The world is a tiny place for us filled with sights and sounds they could not even imagine of back then. They walked or rode in quiet at the speed of nature. Lived without much of the machined ease with have and drew closer to God without the overwhelming minute by minute forces of distraction, distortion, deceit and desires we indure today. Yes, it was easier in my opinion to draw closer then than now. While all this technology makes it easier to spread the gospel and thus speed the coming of LORD and savior it also will be the undoing of mankind for the same.

[Billy Cox]

They had quiet. We have radios, TV, Internet, printed papers, magazines, a plethora of books, phones, cell phones, global communication, cars, trains, planes, and ships. The world is a tiny place for us filled with sights and sounds they could not even imagine of back then. They walked or rode in quiet at the speed of nature. Lived without much of the machined ease with have and drew closer to God without the overwhelming minute by minute forces of distraction, distortion, deceit and desires we indure today. Yes, it was easier in my opinion to draw closer then than now. While all this technology makes it easier to spread the gospel and thus speed the coming of LORD and savior it also will be the undoing of mankind for the same.

While we are surely distracted by technology and more information than we can ever process, Paul's audience was surely distracted by the ever-present threats of hunger, deprivation, political upheaval, violence and disease. No, I don't envy the spiritual bliss that such simplicity would supposedly have yielded...not even a little bit.

[Billy Cox]

Is it as simple as merely merrily "walking in the Spirit" to avoid the "works of the flesh" and to attain the "fruit" of the Spirit?

I think this is a great question, and a loaded one too.

[Gina Stevenson]

While we are surely distracted by technology and more information than we can ever process, Paul's audience was surely distracted by the ever-present threats of hunger, deprivation, political upheaval, violence and disease. No, I don't envy the spiritual bliss that such simplicity would supposedly have yielded...not even a little bit.

Yes, have to agree with Billy here. Whereas we have technological distractions, one could read today, quietly, while waiting for their machines to do what took a lot more time long ago, manually ... which could also be used as an excuse back then for contributing to "not enough quiet time." So, no, do not wish to go back to laundering by hand, for just one example.