Can You Love Jesus Yet Hate The Church?

[Jon Bemis]

That is the question asked in this article on churchleaders.com. I too have heard people make statements like this and IMO this author makes several good points. His summary is:

Here’s what you CAN do:

Attend a local church. Be an active part of the solutions not a vocal attack of the uninformed.

Pray for the local church. Pray with humility, honor and faith. Remember who you are talking to – He loves the church.

Serve. Get involved. Most pastors would love to have someone in their local church who would help serve or lead a ministry that reaches out and helps people in the community.

Give. Help support the efforts of the church. Many churches cannot do what they desire to do because people are so much freer with their critiques than their financial support

Finally, be the example you would like to see. Get off the bench and get in the game. There’s less complaining on the field. Engage the problem with solutions.

[Mike Schutz]

I am currently reading Faith Without Illusions:Following Jesus as a Cynic-Saint.

I have family members who love Jesus, who are passionate about the kingdom, but have been disappointed/disillusioned by the institutional church. (If you have teenagers who have a bent toward cynicism, taking them to General Assembly may not be a good idea.)

[Roy Richardson]

I am currently reading Faith Without Illusions:Following Jesus as a Cynic-Saint.

I have family members who love Jesus, who are passionate about the kingdom, but have been disappointed/disillusioned by the institutional church. (If you have teenagers who have a bent toward cynicism, taking them to General Assembly may not be a good idea.)

True. But taking them to be part of One Heart Many Hands may be a good idea. I plan on taking mine to the exhibits and the like, not the business sessions. I want them to get a grasp of how global the church is.

[Steven Burton]

This seems to be the opinion of many in my generation and younger. It is a hyper focus on non-organizations and more on your personal relationship. It seem to have taken the focus off the body of Christ and focused it on the individual and his needs. There seem to be a big movement towards non religion or organization and more towards personal relationship. I not sure this is completely accurate with how even scripture sets things about, but trying to explain it just gives me a head and feels like I am beating my head against a wall of a generation that has lost touched with its past and hates everything to do with the word organization and religion.

[Ryan Scott]

Christ cannot be separated from the Church - unfortunately lots of people who show up in a building for services each week seem to have forgotten. Leaving them to their own devices doesn't look much like loving Jesus to me - in fact Jesus seems to be the model - just keep showing up and living differently... and eventually they'll either get it or kill you.

[Todd Erickson]

Many people who have left the church have done so because A. they have been significantly hurt by leadership in the church or B. the church only operates culturally in ways which do not connect with them.

The above message (and others I've seen on the site) seem to indicate that people should come to church, but not expect to be happy, understood, or connected, and should come because they can service and sacrifice there on a purely cerebral base (which apparently is the judgement factor for "non-juvenile).

I'm not sure how you sell that as a "value added" for the current generation. But that's apparently the sales point under discussion here.

Honestly, it makes no sense to me. But oh well.

[Gene Tatsch]

Please do not confuse
the church that Jesus is building with
a 501(c)3 organization that includes the word "church" in its organizational name!

[David Warren]

I would also consider taking them to the Sunday Morning Worship service at G.A. and the Mission service with the presentation of the flags. Things that remind us and hopefully them that the church is bigger than one individual or congregation. IMO

[Doug Ward]

Many people who have left the church have done so because A. they have been significantly hurt by leadership in the church or B. the church only operates culturally in ways which do not connect with them.

The above message (and others I've seen on the site) seem to indicate that people should come to church, but not expect to be happy, understood, or connected, and should come because they can service and sacrifice there on a purely cerebral base (which apparently is the judgement factor for "non-juvenile).

I'm not sure how you sell that as a "value added" for the current generation. But that's apparently the sales point under discussion here.

Honestly, it makes no sense to me. But oh well.

In my opinion, and it is only an opinion, most people who decry the institutional church also have showed little willingness to ever be a part of it. Many in the church would love someone with a passion, even a passion for change. Yet one can only change and steer what one is a part of. My family drives me nuts at times, yet I have not pulled away. My community drives me nuts at times, but I do not move - for the next community will drive me nuts as well.
Yes, the church drives me nuts, but that is exactly why I am a part of it. Hopefully, my voice will have an impact. Hopefully, that impact will be for the benefit of the church. When there are obstacles, we love and serve. I am not sure when the pull away and pout became the accepted answer to anything.

[Doug Ward]

I am currently reading Faith Without Illusions:Following Jesus as a Cynic-Saint.

I have family members who love Jesus, who are passionate about the kingdom, but have been disappointed/disillusioned by the institutional church. (If you have teenagers who have a bent toward cynicism, taking them to General Assembly may not be a good idea.)

I might add M11 to that list as well. That experience, especially the Bohi service, caused a great deal of doubt and soul searching for one of my kids. She was complaining about the institutional church. I told her I understood. However, I also told her that if she wanted to be intellectually consistent, she needed to go to the Registrar and decline the scholarships provided by the institutional church. And when I say "institutional church," I mean the factory worker who went to the steel mill every day for 30 years, and then wrote their first check every 2 weeks to the church, then washed up to prepare to teach the SS class he felt unprepared to teach.

[Billy Cox]

That is the question asked in this article on churchleaders.com. I too have heard people make statements like this and IMO this author makes several good points. His summary is:

Here’s what you CAN do:

Attend a local church. Be an active part of the solutions not a vocal attack of the uninformed.

Pray for the local church. Pray with humility, honor and faith. Remember who you are talking to – He loves the church.

Serve. Get involved. Most pastors would love to have someone in their local church who would help serve or lead a ministry that reaches out and helps people in the community.

Give. Help support the efforts of the church. Many churches cannot do what they desire to do because people are so much freer with their critiques than their financial support

Finally, be the example you would like to see. Get off the bench and get in the game. There’s less complaining on the field. Engage the problem with solutions.

This reminds me of the sage advice that to rehabilitate an ailing marriage, one of the partners should 'act' like they love their spouse until they feel it again.

...kind of a fake-it-till-you-make-it strategy.

It works 100% of the time because if there is no love to resurrect, then you won't try to revive it to start with...whereas if the church is your first love, then caring/feeding it will bring it back sooner or later.

[Billy Cox]

Christ cannot be separated from the Church - unfortunately lots of people who show up in a building for services each week seem to have forgotten. Leaving them to their own devices doesn't look much like loving Jesus to me - in fact Jesus seems to be the model - just keep showing up and living differently... and eventually they'll either get it or kill you.

Or maybe they kill you, and then get it.

[Billy Cox]

This seems to be the opinion of many in my generation and younger. It is a hyper focus on non-organizations and more on your personal relationship. It seem to have taken the focus off the body of Christ and focused it on the individual and his needs. There seem to be a big movement towards non religion or organization and more towards personal relationship. I not sure this is completely accurate with how even scripture sets things about, but trying to explain it just gives me a head and feels like I am beating my head against a wall of a generation that has lost touched with its past and hates everything to do with the word organization and religion.

I recommend the book 'unChristian' by David Kinnaman. Despite the rebellious-sounding title, it is most definitely pro-institution while shedding light on why people in the 18-45 age range have no use for evangelical christianity.

And let's be real... The practice of discarding the past is nothing new. It is Protestant tradition to periodically jettison tradition in part or whole and start something new and improved. Considering that the Church of the Nazarene is several schisms removed from the One Church (whatever that was), the complaint about losing connection with the past rings a bit hollow.

[Gina Stevenson]

In my opinion, and it is only an opinion, most people who decry the institutional church also have showed little willingness to ever be a part of it. Many in the church would love someone with a passion, even a passion for change. Yet one can only change and steer what one is a part of. My family drives me nuts at times, yet I have not pulled away. My community drives me nuts at times, but I do not move - for the next community will drive me nuts as well.
Yes, the church drives me nuts, but that is exactly why I am a part of it. Hopefully, my voice will have an impact. Hopefully, that impact will be for the benefit of the church. When there are obstacles, we love and serve. I am not sure when the pull away and pout became the accepted answer to anything.

While this may be true some/a lot of of the time, there are real instances of its not being so (such as the sudden abandonment of the widowed ... or divorced, by those who don't know how/do not want to deal with either). But at those times, the church is not being the Church, either.

[Billy Cox]

In my opinion, and it is only an opinion, most people who decry the institutional church also have showed little willingness to ever be a part of it. Many in the church would love someone with a passion, even a passion for change. Yet one can only change and steer what one is a part of. My family drives me nuts at times, yet I have not pulled away. My community drives me nuts at times, but I do not move - for the next community will drive me nuts as well.
Yes, the church drives me nuts, but that is exactly why I am a part of it. Hopefully, my voice will have an impact. Hopefully, that impact will be for the benefit of the church. When there are obstacles, we love and serve. I am not sure when the pull away and pout became the accepted answer to anything.

I'm sure that this is true to your experience, but it betrays a lack of empathy for those who have far more damaging experience with the church. Maybe it drives you crazy, but for other people, it has beat the hell out of them and told them to like it. Try to consider how flippant your post sounds to those ears.

[Billy Cox]

Question: Can you love Jesus yet hate the Church?

Short answer: No. Loving Jesus means loving what he loves.

Better question: Can you love Jesus yet hate organizations that offer a counterfeit representation of the Church?

Answer: Yes... and hating those organizations is probably on par with loving our neighbor.

[Todd Erickson]

In my opinion, and it is only an opinion, most people who decry the institutional church also have showed little willingness to ever be a part of it. Many in the church would love someone with a passion, even a passion for change. Yet one can only change and steer what one is a part of. My family drives me nuts at times, yet I have not pulled away. My community drives me nuts at times, but I do not move - for the next community will drive me nuts as well.
Yes, the church drives me nuts, but that is exactly why I am a part of it. Hopefully, my voice will have an impact. Hopefully, that impact will be for the benefit of the church. When there are obstacles, we love and serve. I am not sure when the pull away and pout became the accepted answer to anything.

This is incredibly dismissive of people who have been actively harmed by the church.

When the model sold is "The pastor is the head communicator of the grace of the church" and then you are raped by that person, or molested, or mocked, or driven out of the church by them... and then the response when you talk about how the church has hurt you is "I hope your pity party is treating you well"...well, you get what you pay for.

What I get here is that, overall, your life has been fairly healthy. You did not live in fear of your other youth group members beating you up, targeting you, picking on you. You have not been driven out of churches or ignored for asking the 'wrong' questions. You have not had to live through people making coarse jokes about your friends or denigrating things that you found worthwhile truth and beauty in. You may not live in a mileu where it has been made clear that the things which you really bring to the table are not something the church has room for, or interest in.

There may be no greener grass, and yet, all you can offer is "suck it up"? Things must be fine then, and the damned are clearly labeled. Good to know.

[Jon Bemis]

This reminds me of the sage advice that to rehabilitate an ailing marriage, one of the partners should 'act' like they love their spouse until they feel it again.

...kind of a fake-it-till-you-make-it strategy.

It works 100% of the time because if there is no love to resurrect, then you won't try to revive it to start with...whereas if the church is your first love, then caring/feeding it will bring it back sooner or later.

That's interesting. I've counseled couples to act they way they did when they felt the feelings of love, but never considered it a "fake-it-till-you-make-it" kind of thing. Strange as it may seem I've seen it work again and again.

[Todd Erickson]

I think that at length (hrm, using that phrase too much) this sort of thing winds up being a lot like the argument for drug testing for welfare recipients.

"Everybody" knows somebody who is on welfare who is a lazy drug addict. (I don't actually know anybody like that. I know people who are on welfare who aren't on drugs, but my ancedotal evidence is outweighed by all of the others, somehow...)

"Everybody" knows somebody who uses some past slight as a reason not to attend church anymore, and they're just petulant babies who want somebody to tickle their ear, and really, there is no excuse for not being in church.

Except that I know droves of people who have left the church because it has harmed them, because it has demanded that they know all of the answers and defend themselves, because they've been required to love the ray comforts of this world and hate the rob bells, because they've been lied to, stolen from, and fired by Christians, while being loved and ministered to and welcomed home by atheists and pagans and satanists.

My friend Dave got tired of having to have the right answers around people who always knew all of the right answers, and who in the end had no room for Grace. He watched his Father, who was a leader in the church, bully his wife and children until his wife died and his children splintered, and the church refused to get involved. He watched people talk about a God he never got to meet, and then condemn him for not unconditionally accepting their belief statements. He got tired, and he left.

My friend Scott got tired of his leaders going back on their promises, telling him and others about the miracle of marriage and then getting divorces, and generally putting lie to everything they had taught him.

My friend Joy got tired of being a second class citizen because she's a woman, and becoming a pariah in her church because she asked questions on her blog that her pastor told her not to ask.

My friend John watched everything he had been taught become a lie while leading youth group, and turned to satanism, which requires him to rid himself of illusions and false narratives about himself.

My nephew Brayden abandoned the church for atheism and Nietchze because the CotN required him to believe the right things and have others know the right things before he could serve people in need, and because he got tired of having paul shoved down his throat to rationalize every evil committed by the church.

My friend Criss grew up around church people and got tired of having YEC and other rationalized nonsenses shoved down his throat by hypocrites, and is a militant atheist.

The list goes on. I'm sure that they're all lazy whiners by local standards. They're all people who have great respect for Jesus, or at least his teachings, but who have been taught by his followers that he's at most a convenient excuse.

Most of them will say that I'm the only Christian they've ever met who actually brings life to the things they were taught. None of them will darken the doorway of a church.

I go to church because of duty, and because I've been taught repeatedly that to abandon the body is to abandon Christ, but it's depressing and frustrating and empty. It's a duty. And I suspect that all church is really like that, in the end. You either blow it up to be something bigger than it is, or you live it like any other necessary duty, and then go on to the next thing.

Or you leave.

[Mike Schutz]

My reference to a cynical perspective coming out of General Assembly, for those I love, involved in particular a frustration at the great expense - at the overall cost, but also at the expenditures of some Nazarene institutions, and the inequities between the US and the rest of the world, the emphasis on "look how great we are," and the obviously condescending attitude of certain people toward those of other nations and perspectives. Very little prophetic call to bring grace and peace into the world, and very much "aren't we special."

[Billy Cox]

That's interesting. I've counseled couples to act they way they did when they felt the feelings of love, but never considered it a "fake-it-till-you-make-it" kind of thing. Strange as it may seem I've seen it work again and again.

That was the point. The love is there, it's just languishing. So that would not truly be faking it. For people who have only been victimized and exploited by the church, there is no love to resurrect. Telling them that they should will themselves into loving the church is just more and deeper abuse.

[Steven Burton]

I wonder if we should make an difference between little c and capital C. I always do. If it is little c then it is the local church if it is capital C then it is the universal in my eyes.

So I think you can hate the church, but should not hate the Church.

[Dwayne Petry]

Trying to get my head around this!


Those of us (Christians/Belivers/Born Again, etc.) who love Christ are The Church. We congregate in a meeting athmosphere known as a church.

Hate is a very strong word. Does the Bible have anything to say about hate/our brother/our neighbor?

If we keep our "eyes" on Jesus and not man (church), we may be dissapointed in man (church), but will not lose our "way".

[Jon Bemis]

That was the point. The love is there, it's just languishing. So that would not truly be faking it. For people who have only been victimized and exploited by the church, there is no love to resurrect. Telling them that they should will themselves into loving the church is just more and deeper abuse.

Got it.

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

I think it's possible to love Jesus and hate his church.

However, it's also dysfunctional.

[Glenn Messer]

I'm sure that this is true to your experience, but it betrays a lack of empathy for those who have far more damaging experience with the church. Maybe it drives you crazy, but for other people, it has beat the hell out of them and told them to like it. Try to consider how flippant your post sounds to those ears.

Billy, without the detail, I am one of those that the institutional part of the church "beat the hell out of". I refused to walk away. It was the best decision I ever made.

My greatest disappointment is that some of my family have chosen to allow the 'hurt' to separate them from Jesus and the body of Christ. For them I ache a little everyday.

This is not meant as a pointed accusation of anyone, but I have come to believe that in most cases when people 'walk away from the church' there is a 'self-problem' that is at least as great as any problem within the church.

[Billy Cox]

My reference to a cynical perspective coming out of General Assembly, for those I love, involved in particular a frustration at the great expense - at the overall cost, but also at the expenditures of some Nazarene institutions, and the inequities between the US and the rest of the world, the emphasis on "look how great we are," and the obviously condescending attitude of certain people toward those of other nations and perspectives. Very little prophetic call to bring grace and peace into the world, and very much "aren't we special."

The CotN is far from being the largest Christian denomination, yet it hosts the largest religious convention in the USA and some people even have the nerve to boast about it. I think there is something very wrong with that...both the extravagance and the boasting.

[Billy Cox]

Billy, without the detail, I am one of those that the institutional part of the church "beat the hell out of". I refused to walk away. It was the best decision I ever made.

My greatest disappointment is that some of my family have chosen to allow the 'hurt' to separate them from Jesus and the body of Christ. For them I ache a little everyday.

This is not meant as a pointed accusation of anyone, but I have come to believe that in most cases when people 'walk away from the church' there is a 'self-problem' that is at least as great as any problem within the church.

I have no quarrel with those who stay, so long as they don't have a quarrel with me for deciding differently. And for the record, those shake the dust off their feet aren't necessarily lost to Jesus and the Body of Christ.

Some have suggested that I just need some distance from the KC gravy train, and they may be right...but I have no intention of moving my family just to find a more organic expression of the Body that happens to also be Nazarene.

I also acknowledge that some people who leave are at least partly if not mostly responsible for their negative experience with the local church.

[Doug Ward]

This is incredibly dismissive of people who have been actively harmed by the church.

There may be no greener grass, and yet, all you can offer is "suck it up"? Things must be fine then, and the damned are clearly labeled. Good to know.

Todd, all I can say is, I wish you read as well as you seem to perceive others. Notice I said, MOST and MANY in my post. I did not say all. Words have meaning. I know there are people like that, so I purposefully used the words I did. In my 48 years of living most people that I know have left the church not for the reasons you listed. They left because they did not like the pastor. They changed the music, or they did not change the music. My kids do not like the other Jr. Highers. The other church fits my social model better, etc. I will bet the house and the mortgage that these reasons vastly outnumber cases of abuse. So I said most. If we cannot address the majority of cases, well, then conversation is impossible.

You also claimed, "You have not had to live through people making coarse jokes about your friends or denigrating things that you found worthwhile truth and beauty in. You may not live in a mileu where it has been made clear that the things which you really bring to the table are not something the church has room for, or interest in."

This is patently false. I would wager that MOST (notice this word) have experienced this at one time or another in life. SOme have ignored it. Others have stuck around to try to change things for those that follow. Maybe some have "sucked it up." Which is what we do in the Midwest very well. I am sorry this has happened to you. My heart aches when anyone has that experience in the church. I strive with all I have so that in happens to no one I know. I can list names as well. I can also make a list a mile long with people who leave for carpet color, music style, etc. I guess in your world it is wrong to even mention this long line of cases.

[Paul DeBaufer]

Todd, all I can say is, I wish you read as well as you seem to perceive others. Notice I said, MOST and MANY in my post. I did not say all. Words have meaning. I know there are people like that, so I purposefully used the words I did. In my 48 years of living most people that I know have left the church not for the reasons you listed. They left because they did not like the pastor. They changed the music, or they did not change the music. My kids do not like the other Jr. Highers. The other church fits my social model better, etc. I will bet the house and the mortgage that these reasons vastly outnumber cases of abuse. So I said most. If we cannot address the majority of cases, well, then conversation is impossible.

You also claimed, "You have not had to live through people making coarse jokes about your friends or denigrating things that you found worthwhile truth and beauty in. You may not live in a mileu where it has been made clear that the things which you really bring to the table are not something the church has room for, or interest in."

This is patently false. I would wager that MOST (notice this word) have experienced this at one time or another in life. SOme have ignored it. Others have stuck around to try to change things for those that follow. Maybe some have "sucked it up." Which is what we do in the Midwest very well. I am sorry this has happened to you. My heart aches when anyone has that experience in the church. I strive with all I have so that in happens to no one I know. I can list names as well. I can also make a list a mile long with people who leave for carpet color, music style, etc. I guess in your world it is wrong to even mention this long line of cases.

I have to wonder if maybe those who leave a church because they didn't like the pastor (and I have known many), the music (again, I have known many), or even the colour of the carpet (haven't known any but am pretty sure they exist) might actually go on to another, then another, and yet another church after that and don't leave THE church. Oh I am quite sure that there are those who have left THE church completely because they didn't like a pastor, or the music, or the carpet colour (and have known a few), but are they the majority? In my experience more people who are dissatisfied with a particular church go find another, some of these are serial church hoppers who are never satisfied with any particular local church or denomination rather than leave the church catholic. Most of the people I have known that have left the church catholic have been abused and hurt by those within THE church, not just at one particular local church, but oft several (although I have known those who were hurt and abused at one church never to darken the door of another). Of course I have known those nominal Christians who were at particular churches because of one of the pastors, who when they left quit church altogether.

[Todd Erickson]

Of course, the other major affector in this is sin; people are selfish, and if things strike their selfishness enough, they will leave.

Or just spend their time doing only what they want to at church, but refusing to do anything else, especially when a leader directly asks them to, as happened in our church last Sunday.

I think that everybody has a sort of "these people" in their heads when they name a category, i.e., people on welfare, people who have left the church, people who like showtunes... "most" of the people they know of who fit that category are "like x". They may only know one or two people who have been in that situation; they may know hundreds. Logically, we can only say "most" because we know that there are exceptions...

For a long time, I have said things like "most people at church are just faking" or "most people at church are selfish, and only want certain people in their club" etc. because that has been my experience. It hurts people's feelings when I say it, because it hasn't been there experience, and their response is that I'm obviously wrong, and that that has to be really rare, and so I'm really exaggerating or faking or something. This is a communication issue we all have to bear up under.

I think that it is also true that it is harder to be an intellectual in the American church than not. You can't really find out what a church is like without hanging out there and getting to know people for a while, and most of the "value added" as a member may be invisible, or only aimed at an extremely general base (your kids will love our programs! We have bible study groups and fresh coffee! We have an exciting worship service!), to the degree that, in trying to find a church (especially as a fringe Christian) it's entirely up to how well you hear the spirit that you wind up at "the right place" and somebody there is also listening...

I think that there is a significant difference between "I'm a Christian, but I couldn't find a church that I was willing to sacrifice for" and "I am no longer a Christian, because the church hurt me (or somebody I care about) too much, and I hate it." One involves personal feelings that could not be resolved, and the other involves offense. And generally, the responses I have received here and elsewhere have been "if you are offended, that's too bad, but it's not our problem, and you need to get over it". Because, for the most part, people who have been harmed are treated in the exact same category as "I'm a christian, but I can't find a church with the right color carpet".

[Billy Cox]

I have to wonder if maybe those who leave a church because they didn't like the pastor (and I have known many), the music (again, I have known many), or even the colour of the carpet (haven't known any but am pretty sure they exist) might actually go on to another, then another, and yet another church after that and don't leave THE church. Oh I am quite sure that there are those who have left THE church completely because they didn't like a pastor, or the music, or the carpet colour (and have known a few), but are they the majority? In my experience more people who are dissatisfied with a particular church go find another, some of these are serial church hoppers who are never satisfied with any particular local church or denomination rather than leave the church catholic. Most of the people I have known that have left the church catholic have been abused and hurt by those within THE church, not just at one particular local church, but oft several (although I have known those who were hurt and abused at one church never to darken the door of another). Of course I have known those nominal Christians who were at particular churches because of one of the pastors, who when they left quit church altogether.

That's a good observation. When we talk about people who love Jesus and hate the organization, we're not really talking about those who change churches every 12-18 months in search of some impossible ideal, or the church they think they grew up in.

[Billy Cox]

I wonder if we should make an difference between little c and capital C. I always do. If it is little c then it is the local church if it is capital C then it is the universal in my eyes.

So I think you can hate the church, but should not hate the Church.

Sometimes the fuzzy distinction between church and Church is the basis for spiritual abuse; if you disagree with what the church (a.k.a. the pastor) is doing, then you're obviously on the wrong side of God's Church. Note the clever God-card play there.

If the distinction is important, I used the term 'organization' or something other than 'church'.

[Billy Cox]

I think it's possible to love Jesus and hate his church.

However, it's also dysfunctional.

'his church' or 'the church' I don't think that Jesus has a church, but he does have a Body.