Dancing and Nazarene Churches.

[Craig Laughlin]

We had a situation come up in which a long time (generational) Nazarene is getting married in our church. They wanted to dance in our fellowship hall. It had been a very long time since I looked up the "regulation" on dancing. The last I remembered it had to do with allowing "cultural" dancing. (Everything is cultural)

When I look it up (paragraph 34.4) It says "All forms of dancing that detract from spiritual growth and break down proper moral inhibitions and reserve."

Based on that I don't see that a Nazarene church would be prohibited from Wedding dancing in the building. -

We ended up saying no because we really aren't set up for it and we think it would created a lot of heartburn with the older generation for very little real gain.

What surprised me is some old line Nazarenes that said, you know, when we build the gym it would probably be fine to dance in there. - I about fell out of my chair.

So what is going on out there. - Are folks dancing in Nazarene churches?

[John Kennedy]

Only to music by John W. Peterson.

[Craig Laughlin]

Only to music by John W. Peterson.

I don't know, that sounds a lot like slow dancing...

[Jon Bemis]

We don't - but then I've seen some of my folks try and it aint pretty.

[Craig Laughlin]

We don't - but then I've seen some of my folks try and it aint pretty.

Ha, ha! Yea, I didn't say it was a good idea...

[Wes Smith]

Craig,

Over the years I developed a little tradition of making different decisions on this issue based on who was going to be at the reception. If it was someone from our church, and, obviously, lots of church people would be there, my answer was "no." Same reason you gave. However, if it involved people outside our church and a couple times even when it was someone in the church who just wanted to have a dance with the new spouse and, maybe, a dance with old dad, I would listen and respond, "Don't ask. Don't tell." Maybe I just got by with it, but I never heard a word, not once, from anyone who was offended.

Friend,

Wes

[Ryan Scott]

I know of a Nazarene congregation that sponsors dances, about four a year. Couples get dressed up and come out (usually themes - 50's, ballroom, 80's,etc). The pastor approves the music used and of course it's a dry night.

They've found that many in the community like these opportunities, but most of the alternatives are more about booze than dancing. It's been quite successful for them.

(By the way, they dance in the gym... which doubles as the sanctuary.)

[Todd Erickson]

Remember: Don't have sex, it might lead to dancing. Dancing leads to infertility (2 Samuel 6:18-27), beheading (Matt 14:3-10) and worse!

[David Graham]

We had a situation come up in which a long time (generational) Nazarene is getting married in our church. They wanted to dance in our fellowship hall. It had been a very long time since I looked up the "regulation" on dancing. The last I remembered it had to do with allowing "cultural" dancing. (Everything is cultural)

When I look it up (paragraph 34.4) It says "All forms of dancing that detract from spiritual growth and break down proper moral inhibitions and reserve."

Based on that I don't see that a Nazarene church would be prohibited from Wedding dancing in the building. -

We ended up saying no because we really aren't set up for it and we think it would created a lot of heartburn with the older generation for very little real gain.

What surprised me is some old line Nazarenes that said, you know, when we build the gym it would probably be fine to dance in there. - I about fell out of my chair.

So what is going on out there. - Are folks dancing in Nazarene churches?

Gee, I hope so!

The way I see it, there are few legitimate reasons not to dance...... unless you've got absolutely no mind/body co-ordination at all!

The fact is people do respond to rythem; and dancing is just a natural response to music. Even "foot tapping" to a hymn is a form of dancing. In our church we usually have one "bush dance" each year for the young people. The music is appropriate (i.e. no suggestive lyrics.... although it can at times be rather loud..... but maybe that is more of an expression of my age) The event is well supervised, and "gate crashers" will be turned away if they are intoxicated or badly behaved. Also we have a strict no alcohol policy for the premises which helps to keep things on an even keel. We also start and finish with prayer, so that everyone knows that Christ is present.

And while there is one ongoing "romance" from the event, there have been absolutely no unwanted consecquences.

IMHO, to prevent dancing completely is to send all the wrong messages to a society that already thinks that the church is outdated and irrelevent.

[Greg Farra]

As long as there's no pole, I say it's okay

[Bob Evans]

The problem I have with all this is that its really fun. Cha Cha Cha

[Steven Burton]

We had a situation come up in which a long time (generational) Nazarene is getting married in our church. They wanted to dance in our fellowship hall. It had been a very long time since I looked up the "regulation" on dancing. The last I remembered it had to do with allowing "cultural" dancing. (Everything is cultural)

When I look it up (paragraph 34.4) It says "All forms of dancing that detract from spiritual growth and break down proper moral inhibitions and reserve."

Based on that I don't see that a Nazarene church would be prohibited from Wedding dancing in the building. -

We ended up saying no because we really aren't set up for it and we think it would created a lot of heartburn with the older generation for very little real gain.

What surprised me is some old line Nazarenes that said, you know, when we build the gym it would probably be fine to dance in there. - I about fell out of my chair.

So what is going on out there. - Are folks dancing in Nazarene churches?

Well that changed a bit. If I remember correct the older manuals had a longer paragraph.

[Paul DeBaufer]

David, that man after God's own heart danced naked before the Lord.

The church I came to Christ in hosted the wedding of a young lady who grew up in it. They rented and installed a dance floor in the multi-purpose room so that there could be dancing. Yes, it is a Nazarene church. So, yes, they are dancing in CotN churches.

[Bob Hunter]

I danced last night, sorta. In fact, I almost got sucked into a mosh pit and a Christian concert. I'm just too old for that, I got the heck out of the way. But when the band placed rawkfist, Yeah, I had throw up the rawkfist and rawk \m/ \m/

As one who grew up Catholic I have always found this conversation amusing.

[David Parker]

As one who grew up Catholic I have always found this conversation amusing.

My wife also grew up Catholic. And she too is amused by not only the dancing thing, but all the 'lifestyle' issues. She often asks "so what is wrong with just using moderation in all things?" Crazy Catholics!

[Wes Smith]

As long as there's no pole, I say it's okay

Greg,

Racial remarks are not welcome on NazNet.

Friend,

Wes

[Alisa Stoll]

Our reception policy states no dancing - don't know if it is enforced or not. Only someone with a relative that is a regular attender is allowed to have their reception at the church.

Alisa

[Bob Hunter]

My wife also grew up Catholic. And she too is amused by not only the dancing thing, but all the 'lifestyle' issues. She often asks "so what is wrong with just using moderation in all things?" Crazy Catholics!

I actually think our CCC (Code of Christian Conduct) offers some good things. But we get way off on certain pet peeves like dancing and drinking. I would like to see the whole section revised to reflect a more an all encompassing statement that would address all areas of life. I actually think we should raise the bar on what it means to live holy lives and obey the Spirit in all things. When we hyper focus on a few vices because of our history, it sets us up for a very legalistic conversation. I've grown weary of conversations that are more about keeping the rules than living for Jesus. I think we should toss some of that stuff and have a statement that more in line with the Methodist Church. A lot of Nazarenes would never vote for that kind of change, but I actually think it could be healthy and lead to a deeper spirituality. As it is, we have a ton of loopholes, oversights, and things we just flat out ignore (like obesity). We've got folks who are digging themselves into the grave with a fork, but praise God they don't dance and they don't drink!

[Paul DeBaufer]

I actually think our CCC (Code of Christian Conduct) offers some good things. But we get way off on certain pet peeves like dancing and drinking. I would like to see the whole section revised to reflect a more an all encompassing statement that would address all areas of life. I actually think we should raise the bar on what it means to live holy lives and obey the Spirit in all things. When we hyper focus on a few vices because of our history, it sets us up for a very legalistic conversation. I've grown weary of conversations that are more about keeping the rules than living for Jesus. I think we should toss some of that stuff and have a statement that more in line with the Methodist Church. A lot of Nazarenes would never vote for that kind of change, but I actually think it could be healthy and lead to a deeper spirituality. As it is, we have a ton of loopholes, oversights, and things we just flat out ignore (like obesity). We've got folks who are digging themselves into the grave with a fork, but praise God they don't dance and they don't drink!

While I abided by it, as was my duty when I was Elder track, I disagreed with the existence of the CCC. It is simply a set of fences, not at all unlike the added laws of the Pharisees, to keep us from sinning. But in reality, like with all fences, decides who is in and who is out, an attempt at setting us apart.

[Cam Pence]

As long as there's no pole, I say it's okay

Seriously just shot water out of my nose on that one

[Gina Stevenson]

Greg,

Racial remarks are not welcome on NazNet.

Friend,

Wes

Want to sound as if the only pole of which you are aware is the one w/the "capital P" ... good one, (naive?)Wesley!

ETA: How about this one?

http://www.zazzle.co.uk/dog_agility_...30276287315399

[don't worry, it's only a dog found via googling].

[John Kennedy]

Greg,

Racial remarks are not welcome on NazNet.

Friend,

Wes

That's why one needs Czechs and balances ..........

[Greg Farra]

Seriously just shot water out of my nose on that one

I can now consider this my most significant post ever!

[Glenn Messer]

Someone told me that dancing can lead to sex. I've been trying to talk my wife into going with me to visit the local Arthur Murry Studio.

(OK, moderator, this one's in your lap.)

[Larry Parsons]

We had a situation come up in which a long time (generational) Nazarene is getting married in our church. They wanted to dance in our fellowship hall. It had been a very long time since I looked up the "regulation" on dancing. The last I remembered it had to do with allowing "cultural" dancing. (Everything is cultural)

When I look it up (paragraph 34.4) It says "All forms of dancing that detract from spiritual growth and break down proper moral inhibitions and reserve."

Based on that I don't see that a Nazarene church would be prohibited from Wedding dancing in the building. -

We ended up saying no because we really aren't set up for it and we think it would created a lot of heartburn with the older generation for very little real gain.

What surprised me is some old line Nazarenes that said, you know, when we build the gym it would probably be fine to dance in there. - I about fell out of my chair.

So what is going on out there. - Are folks dancing in Nazarene churches?

You may have to teach the old Nazarene how to dance. I remember one Nazarene the couple want dance after their wedding and some of the people took lessons. There few Nazarene pastor was there that night and they didn't say anything about it. One of those pastor was pastoring one larger churches.
thanks
Larry

[Charles G Brown]

Pastoring a large church doesn't necessarily mean compliance with the church Manual.

[Charles G Brown]

Are you saying Nazarenes are comfortable with living the 'lifestyle', but are not willing to vote on a statement which reflects the 'lifeystle' they have chosen.

quote:A lot of Nazarenes would never vote for that kind of change,

[Pete Vecchi]

Someone told me that dancing can lead to sex. I've been trying to talk my wife into going with me to visit the local Arthur Murry Studio.

(OK, moderator, this one's in your lap.)

Poles, and now we're mentioning laps and dancing in the same posts...

[Pete Vecchi]

I actually think our CCC (Code of Christian Conduct) offers some good things. But we get way off on certain pet peeves like dancing and drinking. I would like to see the whole section revised to reflect a more an all encompassing statement that would address all areas of life. I actually think we should raise the bar on what it means to live holy lives and obey the Spirit in all things. When we hyper focus on a few vices because of our history, it sets us up for a very legalistic conversation. I've grown weary of conversations that are more about keeping the rules than living for Jesus. I think we should toss some of that stuff and have a statement that more in line with the Methodist Church. A lot of Nazarenes would never vote for that kind of change, but I actually think it could be healthy and lead to a deeper spirituality. As it is, we have a ton of loopholes, oversights, and things we just flat out ignore (like obesity). We've got folks who are digging themselves into the grave with a fork, but praise God they don't dance and they don't drink!

There is a lot of wisdom in what you say, IMHO.

Also, IMHO, I often wonder if it might not be best to replace or revise the CCC with a simple statement along the lines of "Christians are to live every part of their lives in a way that brings glory to God."

[Charles G Brown]

Try that at home: tell the kids -- no rules, no guidelines, ..... let's just be family.

[Bob Hunter]

Try that at home: tell the kids -- no rules, no guidelines, ..... let's just be family.

We are not saying that at all. I think my original point speaks very clearly to an issue that has been a bone of contention for many Nazarenes. Fifty years ago it may have been acceptable Christian advisement to identify certain evils such as movie going, drinking establishments, dance halls, etc. Today's world is far more complicated. We simply cannot rely on the old, "Don't smoke, drink, chew and go with girls that do." Those old categories are no longer helpful. In today's world we have many forms of entertainment at our finger tips that we need to guard against.

For example, we are living in an age of electronic warfare. The internet allows three things: anything, anywhere, anytime. Most teenagers have smart phones with video capability making it possible to view porn on demand. Now, we can talk about Internet safety devices ad infinitum, we can draft resolution after resolution and warn against the dangers of the internet. We can install filters, use firewalls, and protective software. We can make bold statements against pornography and why we should not patronize businesses that produce it. At the end of the day, I am going to argue that the most important internet safety device lies between our ears. And we have done a poor job of equipping people to use spiritual discernment when facing temptations of various kinds. We have to take a step back and help people analyze how internet usage is affecting their lives positively and negatively. I'm afraid we have supplanted the responsibility to raise up mature Christians who can discern for themselves with a laundry list of sins to avoid (and there are a ton of omissions!). It is important for a Christian to have the ability to discern for themselves whether or not an activity is harmful, sinful and necessary to avoid. Spelling out a laundry list of sins that one must avoid may be helpful (maybe) in some instances (e.g., I would encourage every smoker to quit for the glory of God!). But I think we have to get beyond that. We can do better. For example, how do we help Christians address the problem of prescription drug abuse? Oh yeah, it's a real problem in the Church. Do we draft a resolution and split hairs over acceptable dosages of pain killers? No, we have to help Christians exercise judgment, discernment and somehow foster a dependency on the Holy Spirit. I think the CCC, has good intentions, but it does not go far enough and it needs to rid itself of a lot of inconsistencies in order to effectively address 21st Century living.

[Craig Laughlin]

Try that at home: tell the kids -- no rules, no guidelines, ..... let's just be family.

This is the way it works when the kids are grown up.

[Steven Burton]

We are not saying that at all. I think my original point speaks very clearly to an issue that has been a bone of contention for many Nazarenes. Fifty years ago it may have been acceptable Christian advisement to identify certain evils such as movie going, drinking establishments, dance halls, etc. Today's world is far more complicated. We simply cannot rely on the old, "Don't smoke, drink, chew and go with girls that do." Those old categories are no longer helpful. In today's world we have many forms of entertainment at our finger tips that we need to guard against.

For example, we are living in an age of electronic warfare. The internet allows three things: anything, anywhere, anytime. Most teenagers have smart phones with video capability making it possible to view porn on demand. Now, we can talk about Internet safety devices ad infinitum, we can draft resolution after resolution and warn against the dangers of the internet. We can install filters, use firewalls, and protective software. We can make bold statements against pornography and why we should not patronize businesses that produce it. At the end of the day, I am going to argue that the most important internet safety device lies between our ears. And we have done a poor job of equipping people to use spiritual discernment when facing temptations of various kinds. We have to take a step back and help people analyze how internet usage is affecting their lives positively and negatively. I'm afraid we have supplanted the responsibility to raise up mature Christians who can discern for themselves with a laundry list of sins to avoid (and there are a ton of omissions!). It is important for a Christian to have the ability to discern for themselves whether or not an activity is harmful, sinful and necessary to avoid. Spelling out a laundry list of sins that one must avoid may be helpful (maybe) in some instances (e.g., I would encourage every smoker to quit for the glory of God!). But I think we have to get beyond that. We can do better. For example, how do we help Christians address the problem of prescription drug abuse? Oh yeah, it's a real problem in the Church. Do we draft a resolution and split hairs over acceptable dosages of pain killers? No, we have to help Christians exercise judgment, discernment and somehow foster a dependency on the Holy Spirit. I think the CCC, has good intentions, but it does not go far enough and it needs to rid itself of a lot of inconsistencies in order to effectively address 21st Century living.

So could we say exercise of discipline (teaching of self discipline) instead of rules to make the changes.

[Rich Schmidt]

We had a situation come up in which a long time (generational) Nazarene is getting married in our church. They wanted to dance in our fellowship hall. It had been a very long time since I looked up the "regulation" on dancing. The last I remembered it had to do with allowing "cultural" dancing. (Everything is cultural)

When I look it up (paragraph 34.4) It says "All forms of dancing that detract from spiritual growth and break down proper moral inhibitions and reserve."

Based on that I don't see that a Nazarene church would be prohibited from Wedding dancing in the building. -

We ended up saying no because we really aren't set up for it and we think it would created a lot of heartburn with the older generation for very little real gain.

What surprised me is some old line Nazarenes that said, you know, when we build the gym it would probably be fine to dance in there. - I about fell out of my chair.

So what is going on out there. - Are folks dancing in Nazarene churches?

In the earlier days of this Naz church plant (when we were still meeting in a banquet hall), we put on a Valentine's Dinner & Dance as an outreach event. My wife and I, along with 3 other couples from the church, took swing dance lessons for a couple months leading up to it. It was fun.

I got in trouble.

Though, honestly, I only got in trouble because I mentioned it in our regional newspaper. Some folks from another Nazarene church saw it and called the DS to complain. "I thought this was a Nazarene church plant! What's this about a dance?!" So I got called into his office, and we had a talk about it.

1. His major concern was that he was surprised by it. He wished I had told him about it in advance, so he would know what to say to the kind Nazarenes who called to ask him about it. I'm pretty sure we had already discussed it with him. My associate, who was taking the lead on the event, was completely confident he had talked with him about it at some point. The fact that we were meeting at the district office for our swing dance lessons seems to support his recollection.

2. He pulled out the secret DS binder during our conversation to see what the GS's had said about that paragraph. As written, it clearly allows for dancing Nazarenes, as long as they are not forms of dancing that would detract from spiritual growth, etc, etc. However, the Generals apparently saw this as a concession to Nazarenes in other parts of the world and believed that Nazarenes in the USA should still avoid it. At least, that was the general idea. It's been around 8 years ago now, so I don't remember exactly.

We haven't done any dance-related events since then, and our current building doesn't really have room for it, but I personally don't see why Nazarenes shouldn't have dances at their weddings. At least the first few dances. I've been to enough wedding receptions where people are out there making fools of themselves, sloppy drunk, etc, to know that we'd want to avoid all that foolishness.

[Steven Burton]

In the earlier days of this Naz church plant (when we were still meeting in a banquet hall), we put on a Valentine's Dinner & Dance as an outreach event. My wife and I, along with 3 other couples from the church, took swing dance lessons for a couple months leading up to it. It was fun.

I got in trouble.

Though, honestly, I only got in trouble because I mentioned it in our regional newspaper. Some folks from another Nazarene church saw it and called the DS to complain. "I thought this was a Nazarene church plant! What's this about a dance?!" So I got called into his office, and we had a talk about it.

1. His major concern was that he was surprised by it. He wished I had told him about it in advance, so he would know what to say to the kind Nazarenes who called to ask him about it. I'm pretty sure we had already discussed it with him. My associate, who was taking the lead on the event, was completely confident he had talked with him about it at some point. The fact that we were meeting at the district office for our swing dance lessons seems to support his recollection.

2. He pulled out the secret DS binder during our conversation to see what the GS's had said about that paragraph. As written, it clearly allows for dancing Nazarenes, as long as they are not forms of dancing that would detract from spiritual growth, etc, etc. However, the Generals apparently saw this as a concession to Nazarenes in other parts of the world and believed that Nazarenes in the USA should still avoid it. At least, that was the general idea. It's been around 8 years ago now, so I don't remember exactly.

We haven't done any dance-related events since then, and our current building doesn't really have room for it, but I personally don't see why Nazarenes shouldn't have dances at their weddings. At least the first few dances. I've been to enough wedding receptions where people are out there making fools of themselves, sloppy drunk, etc, to know that we'd want to avoid all that foolishness.

I'm sorry this is not gonna fly for me. If you are gonna allow dancing then allow dancing. Don't play this other country bs.

[Rich Schmidt]

I'm sorry this is not gonna fly for me. If you are gonna allow dancing then allow dancing. Don't play this other county bs.

I agree. I think more and more Naz churches (and districts) are allowing it.

While I said "I got in trouble," there were no lasting consequences, other than my committing to tell him in advance if we were going to do anything else that our more conservative/traditional Nazarene brothers and sisters might take issue with. I committed to do so in writing in the future, so we could avoid any confusion.

He was a wonderful DS. He's now been retired for 18 days, and we have a brand new DS who I'm sure will be wonderful as well.

[Pete Vecchi]

...IMHO, I often wonder if it might not be best to replace or revise the CCC with a simple statement along the lines of "Christians are to live every part of their lives in a way that brings glory to God."

The original comment to which I want to reply was this:

Try that at home: tell the kids -- no rules, no guidelines, ..... let's just be family.

The following response was posted:

This is the way it works when the kids are grown up.

Craig, that is an excellent response. IMHO (I've been using that "IMHO" quite a bit n this thread), even though I hadn't thought of it in this light before your response, I see how it can seem almost as though the CCC is devised as a set of rules that (spiritual) authorities have set up for (spiritual) children to follow.

[Steve Mershon]

In the earlier days of this Naz church plant (when we were still meeting in a banquet hall), we put on a Valentine's Dinner & Dance as an outreach event. My wife and I, along with 3 other couples from the church, took swing dance lessons for a couple months leading up to it. It was fun.

I got in trouble.

Though, honestly, I only got in trouble because I mentioned it in our regional newspaper. Some folks from another Nazarene church saw it and called the DS to complain. "I thought this was a Nazarene church plant! What's this about a dance?!" So I got called into his office, and we had a talk about it.
.

(With apologies to those seriously discussing this in another thread ....)

Was this coaching ... Or a ban?

[Mike Schutz]

I am waiting for this conversation to come up, as we prepare to move into a new recreational/fellowship hall. It is not an attractive building at all - just a large steel framed shed, concrete floor, with gym padding around the walls. Perfect as a place where no one will freak out when the balls bounce against the walls from indoor soccer, volleyball and basketball, as well as a great place for some of our community emergency management needs (shelter during storms), and adequate as a fellowship hall. However, I know that someone will want to use it for a wedding reception.
Only 1/3 of the members of my church board will really know there was once a Nazarene prohibition against dancing, and only 2 of them will have a problem with dancing. However, I have suffered through the righteous indignation from those who were "shocked and appalled" by VERY INNOCENT behavior at wedding receptions in the past, so I am looking forward to this conversation in the very same way that I look forward to a visit with certain medical doctors.

[Roy Richardson]

I am waiting for this conversation to come up, as we prepare to move into a new recreational/fellowship hall. It is not an attractive building at all - just a large steel framed shed, concrete floor, with gym padding around the walls. Perfect as a place where no one will freak out when the balls bounce against the walls from indoor soccer, volleyball and basketball, as well as a great place for some of our community emergency management needs (shelter during storms), and adequate as a fellowship hall. However, I know that someone will want to use it for a wedding reception.
Only 1/3 of the members of my church board will really know there was once a Nazarene prohibition against dancing, and only 2 of them will have a problem with dancing. However, I have suffered through the righteous indignation from those who were "shocked and appalled" by VERY INNOCENT behavior at wedding receptions in the past, so I am looking forward to this conversation in the very same way that I look forward to a visit with certain medical doctors.

It never ceases to amaze me how we get our knickers twisted over things. It is almost as if some have deemed themselves the morality police.

One thought that I try to use in these situations is to determine if I am better off CALLING people to a behavior or place, or DRIVING them through rules and shame. There is a big difference.