Dancing and Nazarene Churches.

[Sarah Smith]

I guess either I fall into old fogeydom or just live where dirty dancing rather than simple dancing is the norm.

Or maybe it is the fact some in my family fell into sin and loss of faith in the honky tonk scene.

DH and I don't dance other than with each other, each of us seeing no need for the other to be in another's arms.

I have no problem with the younger set square dancing, or what some of us fogey's consider ball room dancing or just dancing. But in our area that ain't gonna happen. You say "dance" and respectable clothing seems to fly out the window literally, with moves that imitate the marital act.

Now, I suppose in knowing if wedding receptions can have dancing we'd have to know just what we expect to take place.

With what happens at those receptions around here, most churches--not just conservative ones!--suggest if you want dancing you book the reception "elsewhere."

[Charles G Brown]

If 'dancing with the stars' is your kind of acceptable dancing then what is left to be against.

[Alisa Stoll]

In regards to the CCC, I used to laugh quietly to myself when those of the congregation said "Well I would NEVER go to a movie theater" then talk about the R-rated movie they watched on cable. We occasionally go to movies but draw the line on what they contain/rating.

Alisa

[Craig Laughlin]

In regards to the CCC, I used to laugh quietly to myself when those of the congregation said "Well I would NEVER go to a movie theater" then talk about the R-rated movie they watched on cable. We occasionally go to movies but draw the line on what they contain/rating.

Alisa

A similar situation is what finally convinced me that the rules had to go. During the 80's when VHS video tape was making movies widely available for home use I started running into folks that prided themselves on keeping all the rules but would watch raunchy movies on tape at home. - At that point I realized we had formed our people wrong. Time for a new plan.

[Rich Schmidt]

If 'dancing with the stars' is your kind of acceptable dancing then what is left to be against.

While dancing with the stars definitely "sexes up" ballroom dancing, there is much, much worse out there. I imagine if you searched for dancing on YouTube, you would find plenty of examples.

[Paul DeBaufer]

If 'dancing with the stars' is your kind of acceptable dancing then what is left to be against.

I can't tell is this is sarcastic or not. But I would much rather be known for what I am for rather than against.

[Sarah Smith]

Yep--I'd rather be for a holy life than against some list of rules.

But folks have so degraded their discerners today some need some guidance.

Again, no problem with a waltz or two at a wedding reception, but if you saw what happens here and were not appalled, I'd just have to pray for you.

[Rich Schmidt]

Again, no problem with a waltz or two at a wedding reception...

As far as I know, that's been the context for this whole thread, based on Craig's initial post. I hope we'd all agree that there are definitely forms of dancing that should be avoided. But I grew up when Nazarene weddings didn't allow for any dancing at all (not even the dance between the bride and her dad or the groom and his mom), when kids weren't allowed to participate in square dances in gym at school, and when a teenage child of church members wanting to take ballet classes was cause for major indigestion. I'd like to think that these wouldn't be issues in Nazarene churches today...

[Roy Richardson]

My wife has been after me to take ballroom dancing lessons for some time. We did it in South Dakota back in the 1990s, and I'm pretty sure I am rhythmically impaired. But I have 2 teenage daughters who will probably get married some day, so I should at least learn the two-step and the foxtrot. I draw the line at the polka. I sweat too much for that one.

When we were taking lessons, the instructor used a country song for the waltz, and I couldn't dance to that. So we went as far from the music as possible and I hummed the Sleeping Beauty Waltz to my self and we managed to do a passable waltz.

[John Reilly]

I am waiting for this conversation to come up, as we prepare to move into a new recreational/fellowship hall. It is not an attractive building at all - just a large steel framed shed, concrete floor, with gym padding around the walls. Perfect as a place where no one will freak out when the balls bounce against the walls from indoor soccer, volleyball and basketball, as well as a great place for some of our community emergency management needs (shelter during storms), and adequate as a fellowship hall. However, I know that someone will want to use it for a wedding reception.
Only 1/3 of the members of my church board will really know there was once a Nazarene prohibition against dancing, and only 2 of them will have a problem with dancing. However, I have suffered through the righteous indignation from those who were "shocked and appalled" by VERY INNOCENT behavior at wedding receptions in the past, so I am looking forward to this conversation in the very same way that I look forward to a visit with certain medical doctors.

Mike, I hope Heather's reception did not cause you any pain. Did you hear any complaints?

[Dan Henderson]

For me, dancing is one of those topics too hot to handle in the Church. You can't really define what is appropriate and what is not. I remember vaguely a statement from (I'm not sure) on pornography which wen something like, I can't definie it but I know it when I see it.

[Bud Pugh]

For me, dancing is one of those topics too hot to handle in the Church. You can't really define what is appropriate and what is not. I remember vaguely a statement from (I'm not sure) on pornography which wen something like, I can't definie it but I know it when I see it.

Here's your reference, Dan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_know_it_when_I_see_it

It comes from a Supreme Court opinion on what constitutes obscenity.

[Greg Crofford]

Mike, I enjoyed the dancing we did during worship in Côte d'Ivoire and Benin (West Africa). To this day, though, I have two left feet, so I try to spare others from having to look at me dancing. As my younger son once said when I was moving around to some Michael W. Smith: "Dad, stop! That's disturbing."

[Craig Laughlin]

Mike, I enjoyed the dancing we did during worship in Côte d'Ivoire and Benin (West Africa). To this day, though, I have two left feet, so I try to spare others from having to look at me dancing. As my younger son once said when I was moving around to some Michael W. Smith: "Dad, stop! That's disturbing."

Heh, heh, heh.... Maybe I have missed the point entirely and our dancing rule is really about health and safety. I know I would probably be a danger to myself an others on a dance floor.

[Mike Schutz]

Hey, Greg. Welcome to Naznet.
The way I figure, the more of my friends who join, the increased potential that someone will eventually agree with me on something - if for nothing more than pity's sake.

[Roy Richardson]

Mike, I enjoyed the dancing we did during worship in Côte d'Ivoire and Benin (West Africa). To this day, though, I have two left feet, so I try to spare others from having to look at me dancing. As my younger son once said when I was moving around to some Michael W. Smith: "Dad, stop! That's disturbing."

There is a video of me doing what my former pastor referred to as "The Guatemalan Hokey-Pokey" and it should not be shown to women, children, or anyone who just ate or has a delicate stomach.

[Dan Henderson]

There is a video of me doing what my former pastor referred to as "The Guatemalan Hokey-Pokey" and it should not be shown to women, children, or anyone who just ate or has a delicate stomach.

You mean that same warning they have on roller coaster rides ... I'm the same way. You are not alone ...

[Roy Richardson]

You mean that same warning they have on roller coaster rides ... I'm the same way. You are not alone ...

Yeah. that one. It's pretty ugly to watch

[Gina Stevenson]

You guys are all funny!

[Larry Parsons]

I actually think our CCC (Code of Christian Conduct) offers some good things. But we get way off on certain pet peeves like dancing and drinking. I would like to see the whole section revised to reflect a more an all encompassing statement that would address all areas of life. I actually think we should raise the bar on what it means to live holy lives and obey the Spirit in all things. When we hyper focus on a few vices because of our history, it sets us up for a very legalistic conversation. I've grown weary of conversations that are more about keeping the rules than living for Jesus. I think we should toss some of that stuff and have a statement that more in line with the Methodist Church. A lot of Nazarenes would never vote for that kind of change, but I actually think it could be healthy and lead to a deeper spirituality. As it is, we have a ton of loopholes, oversights, and things we just flat out ignore (like obesity). We've got folks who are digging themselves into the grave with a fork, but praise God they don't dance and they don't drink!

You may not remember but we used to have what could call Christian conduct card that we could pass out to our vistors. A pastor friend of mine told me he told the vistors who recieve one the card never came back so he stop pass them card.
Thanks
Larry

[Rich Schmidt]

You may not remember but we used to have what could call Christian conduct card that we could pass out to our vistors. A pastor friend of mine told me he told the vistors who recieve one the card never came back so he stop pass them card.
Thanks
Larry

I've never heard of this. Has anyone else? Or was this just something this one pastor was doing?

[Dan Henderson]

I've never heard of this. Has anyone else? Or was this just something this one pastor was doing?

Our denomination is not perfect. NPH has pulished some silly (sometimes hurtful) stuff in the past including this: "Why I am a Nazarene and not a ...." I ran accross it as a child and though it was SOS (Stuck on Stupid) even then.

(Dan's gratuitous dig: Why I am an Nazarene and not a Fundamentalist was NOT one of the chapters)

[Rich Schmidt]

Our denomination is not perfect. NPH has pulished some silly (sometimes hurtful) stuff in the past including this: "Why I am a Nazarene and not a ...." I ran accross it as a child and though it was SOS (Stuck on Stupid) even then.

(Dan's gratuitous dig: Why I am an Nazarene and not a Fundamentalist was NOT one of the chapters)

I remember liking that book when I was a teenager. I don't remember any specifics now. But I was a different person back then, so it's very possible I wouldn't care for it today.

[Dan Henderson]

I remember liking that book when I was a teenager. I don't remember any specifics now. But I was a different person back then, so it's very possible I wouldn't care for it today.

The Chapters I remember are ... Adventist, Mormon, Roman Catholic. I took exception to the Roman Catholic chapter. Fortunately for me my dad had already taught me a lot of church history and I thought it was inappropriate to disparage our root church, even if we disagree with them on processes.

[David Parker]

I remember liking that book when I was a teenager. I don't remember any specifics now. But I was a different person back then, so it's very possible I wouldn't care for it today.

I read that book when I was younger too. I remember my pastor apologizing for the format when he handed it to me. Despite the tacky format, I recall that it did help me increase my understanding of other faiths.

[Dan Henderson]

I read that book when I was younger too. I remember my pastor apologizing for the format when he handed it to me. Despite the tacky format, I recall that it did help me increase my understanding of other faiths.

Okay, thant makes sense. To understand other faiths, I like "The Handbook of Denominations in the United States", I have the 9th edition. The critique I did not know as a child was to learn the opposing point-of-view from the other person's perspective. The handbook I use summarizes the denomination's perspective with in their context as each summary is written by an authority recognized by that particular group. This is something Why I am a Nazarene ... does not do. As a child, I didn't like it and didn't know why other than it offended my child like sense of fairness, now I have a more academic view of why I don't generally like (or like with qualifications) books, debaters, opinions that do not attempt to objectively represent the opposing point-of-view.

In the light of what you stated, yes it did help me to understand what Nazarenes believe. The problem is that it represents the other denominations it talks about from the author's, and by authoritative extension, the Nazarene, point-of-view, and in that context is not representative of what I have learned from the practicioners of those respective denominations.

I really was just using it as an example of how we don't always get it right, even at the corporate level. It was meant to be a re-inforcing example of the SoS idea of handing a CCC card to a visitor. "Welcome to our show, here's a list of rules" - NOT the best of ideas, in fact, I think its awful. I can say in the same breath that our parking lots ought to contain cigarette butts but our board room should not. That is just a euphamism to emphasise that everyone should be welcome in our churches while if you want to run our churches, you need to be willing to follow some set of rules. If that means we don't smoke, chew, or go out with girls/guys who do, so what?

If we are not going to agree to some common ground we might as well say "An ye harm none, do as ye will", run around naked in the woods, and call on the goddess or whatever else we want to worship. We might as well because we certainly are not worshiping God by disparaging other denominations (even if they are wrong) or ridiculing our brothers and sisters (even if, *gasp* they are CNs) and dare I say to myself, even if they are, *gasp*, open theists.

[Roy Richardson]

I know he is a controversial figger for some people, but Richard Foster's book "Streams of Living Water" is an excellent resource if you want to see the positives in other Christian faith traditions. He points out the strengths of each stream and where it interconnects with the other streams. I find it to be a very useful resource.

[Susan Unger]

There is a video of me doing what my former pastor referred to as "The Guatemalan Hokey-Pokey" and it should not be shown to women, children, or anyone who just ate or has a delicate stomach.

Since I am eating my dinner as I read this post, your restraint is muchly appreciated

[Marsha Lynn]

I was reminded of this thread today. We were at a children's missionary convention and the first song started out: "I'm gonna dance because I got the joy in my heart" (or something like that). No one danced. (Well, I might have been getting into it a little until I saw the D.S. looking my way.)

Then we sang a song with a familiar tune about putting various body parts in and out and then "you give your heart to Jesus and you turn yourself around and that's what it's all about." The kids dutifully put their arms and feet in and out. No dancing, though.

Now, obviously, not all of these kids have been lectured on the evils of dancing. They just didn't seem inclined to dance. The whole scene supported my theory that denominations evolve to fit the profile of the members and then attract more people who fit that profile. Quakers are natural pacifists, not natural-born warriors with strong spiritual convictions. Amish aren't big fans of fashion. And Nazarenes have two left feet on the dance floor.

Personally, I would be at least 16th-generation Quaker if my grandfather hadn't refused to send his children to Earlham. The pacifism gene is still strong. As is a quiet response to the moving of the Spirit. I don't think I could shout in church if my life depended on it. But music gets into my soul and I would have probably developed some dancing skills by now in a different life.

Someplace there is a video of my younger daughter dancing up a storm to "Victory in Jesus" at a family reunion when she was around 3 years old. There is also a more recent video of that same daughter and her husband swing dancing at their wedding last fall. They didn't use our church for either the wedding or reception so it wasn't an issue. I think the Nazarenes there enjoyed watching them dance as much as anyone else. But having it happen elsewhere was definitely a good idea. It was obvious that neither one of them has a full dose of Nazarene heritage. They dance too well.



Marsha

PS: I'm pretty sure the D.S. didn't care at all if I moved to the music at the children's convention today. I just threw that in for grins and giggles.

[John Kennedy]

The saddest thing about the church's change of mind on dancing is that Nazarenes will no longer be able to say, under some conditions: "Might as well; can't dance........."

[Marsha Lynn]

The saddest thing about the church's change of mind on dancing is that Nazarenes will no longer be able to say, under some conditions: "Might as well; can't dance........."

John, didn't you read my post? My proposal is that the "can't" will be there long after the "not allowed to" is gone.

I hope that thought of enduring reality transcending the changing tides of man-made rules lifts the sadness from your soul.

[Dan Henderson]

I wish, everyone were a pacifist Marsha, Id have a job that didn't make me cry.

[Marsha Lynn]

I wish, everyone were a pacifist Marsha, Id have a job that didn't make me cry.

Ah well, that's a topic for another thread. I will say, however, that I like the stance of the CotN on the issue. Pacifism is not an official position but, when and where military service is required, those who choose pacifism have the support they need to cite religious conviction in their request for alternate service. One of the young men in my home church (whose parents had been Amish before becoming Nazarenes) exercised that option when drafted during the latter days of the Vietnam War.

[Pete Vecchi]

I happened to run across this article today (something I'd read in the past) and it seemed somewhat germane to this thread:

http://blog.newreflectionscounseling...Parenting.aspx

The article is specifically about parenting, but I think it can well be applied to some things in the Church.

It seems to me that the entire issue of dancing could be viewed in this way...

[Craig Laughlin]

I happened to run across this article today (something I'd read in the past) and it seemed somewhat germane to this thread:

http://blog.newreflectionscounseling...Parenting.aspx

The article is specifically about parenting, but I think it can well be applied to some things in the Church.

It seems to me that the entire issue of dancing could be viewed in this way...

Yep, I think in addition we are just growing up as a denomination. What is important at 10 is not as important at 25.

I think on the dancing issue we have an excellent bordering on outstanding statement. It allows dancing but recognizes that some things called dancing are really not about dancing. We can still go square dancing but we can warn against a couple of 17 years old's in a dark corner slow dancing, real close and real slow.

We just need to make those kinds of updates to some other areas. I'm all for strong warnings even imploring, it is just the black and white rule thing that gets to be a problem.

[Sarah Smith]

I may have just gotten firmly anti dancing.

DGD went to VBS at a Baptist church--the kind that used to forbid dancing but now allows it.

Last number in the program on parent's night was a big band sounding one.

They had two lady teachers up front dancing while the kiddoes sang.

Could have been a cute ending. But instead parts were flung, and that badly, that just should not have been flung. Things were shown that had no business being shown.

If discretion is lacking, abstaining might be wise.

[Bob Carabbio]

In a somewhat related situation:

The Cedar Junction Bluegrass Band is composed of ME, and two Non-Instrumental Church of Christ families, who are also the song leaders for their congregation. SO when we play for Non-Instrumental Church of Christ fellowships they WON'T ALLOW us to do "hymns" or gospel songs because THEY have to be done Acapella to avoid offending the older members.

The PROBLEM is that even though the others in the band have grown up in the Non-Instrumental church, none of 'em can sing harmony, so attempts at acapella performances are generally pretty shaky.

And of course doing music for their SERVICE is out of the question completely (although the Band will play in OUR Assembly Services without a problem). IN fact the Midlothian Church of Christ SPLIT over the formation of an acapella quartet in the church to do "Special music" because some felt that it was a "Performance", and not "Authorized worship". With the Church of Christ hard liners, it doesn't take much to bring on a "split".

"Religion" - you GOTTA love it.

[Roy Richardson]

If you ever make it to NW Indiana, let me know

[John Kennedy]

In a somewhat related situation:

The Cedar Junction Bluegrass Band is composed of ME, and two Non-Instrumental Church of Christ families, who are also the song leaders for their congregation. SO when we play for Non-Instrumental Church of Christ fellowships they WON'T ALLOW us to do "hymns" or gospel songs because THEY have to be done Acapella to avoid offending the older members.

The PROBLEM is that even though the others in the band have grown up in the Non-Instrumental church, none of 'em can sing harmony, so attempts at acapella performances are generally pretty shaky.

And of course doing music for their SERVICE is out of the question completely (although the Band will play in OUR Assembly Services without a problem). IN fact the Midlothian Church of Christ SPLIT over the formation of an acapella quartet in the church to do "Special music" because some felt that it was a "Performance", and not "Authorized worship". With the Church of Christ hard liners, it doesn't take much to bring on a "split".

"Religion" - you GOTTA love it.

My Dad used to say that some took the New Testament admonition to 'contend earnestly for the faith' and simply decided to be contentious.

[Kyle Borger]

I wish they would go back to the old rule where dancing is strictly forbidden. It gave me comfort that no one would ever know just how badly I am at it. Now I am at risk.

I suggest a CCC that follows the path that Hal Perkins teaches when discipling children. Instead of just disciplining the behavior, first discover what is in the heart. Which boy needs attention? The boy who accidentally drops his glass of milk or the boy who throws his milk on the floor? Same result, different attitude of the heart. It seems like we keep trying to address the behavior instead of the heart.

I will admit that letting my daughter go to a school dance was hard on me. I never went and viewed them only as events where the popular kids would further humiliate me and make my life miserable. So dancing automatically brings up some negative thoughts. I also had to make sure that I was ready to stand up for my daughter if someone in the church decided to make it an issue. A lay person may get a dirty look but if the pastor's kid isn't perfected in Christ by the time they are 3 then it is everyone's job to help them get there. Actually my children haven't experienced that since we just recently became official staff members, but I have seen it.

My daughter loves to dance and yes it still makes me uncomfortable even though there is nothing suggestive to it. She loves to dance to her Christian music. As I watch her rejoice in the love that God has given her and expresses her love for God through her dancing I just simply stuff my feelings aside and do my best to worship with her.