Is the Sinner's Prayer harmful?

[Kyle Borger]

I ran across this article about the Southern Baptists debate on this issue. http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/...rs-prayer.html

Here are two quotes from David Platt that sets up the debate.

"I'm convinced that many people in our churches are simply missing the life of Christ, and a lot of it has to do with what we've sold them as the gospel, i.e. pray this prayer, accept Jesus into your heart, invite Christ into your life," Platt said. "Should it not concern us that there is no such superstitious prayer in the New Testament? Should it not concern us that the Bible never uses the phrase, 'accept Jesus into your heart' or 'invite Christ into your life'? It's not the gospel we see being preached, it's modern evangelism built on sinking sand. And it runs the risk of disillusioning millions of souls."

"Many assume they are saved simply because of a prayer they prayed," he said. "It's not that praying a prayer in and of itself is bad—but the question in John 2 and 3 is what kind of faith are we calling people to?"

Here is a quote by Jared Moore.

"I live in a community where everyone has asked Jesus to come into their hearts and none of them are at church," he told the delegates. "Many of them live contrary to Scripture. They're not repenting and having faith in Christ, yet they asked Jesus to come into their heart. … I have to get them lost before I can get them saved."

And Steve Gaines position

Meanwhile, Steve Gaines, pastor of Bellevue Baptist Church in Cordova, Tennessee, who has preached against Calvinist theology, called the Sinner's Prayer representative of God's New Covenant. He also noted that 262 children at his church recently prayed the Sinner's Prayer and invited Jesus into their heart. (Gaines also preached a defense of the Sinner's Prayer and "accepting Jesus into your heart" last month.)
"While asking Jesus to come into your heart may not be specifically in the Bible, I believe the concept is, just like the terms inerrancy and Trinity," he said.

I find it interesting that a denomination built around total depravity and predestination are arguing over the sinner's prayer. But I do find their arguments to be similar as what we might find in our denomination.

I have recently begun to struggle with the push to get people to pray a sinner's prayer without having a relationship with that person or without someone in the church having some relationship with the person.

One of the last things I coordinated before leaving my last church was VBS. There were over 30 children who accepted Jesus as their savior. Yet, I'm not sure exactly how I feel about that. Yes, I got them saved, but then I left. Where are they now and what relationship do they have with the church? Who is discipling them?

Is it proper for any church leader to lead someone into a sinner's prayer if there is not a relationship in place that will assist them as they grow in Christ?

It seems to me that for many years our denomination has focused on this prayer without providing the support system to disciple. I'm not talking about Sunday School or sermons, but one on one mentoring that is meant to have accountability and to provide a voice into the heart of the one who has come to Christ and is being transformed.

[Gene Tatsch]

... Yes, I got them saved, but then I left. Where are they now and what relationship do they have with the church? Who is discipling them?....

THANK YOU!!
It seems tragic that a denomination who claims its mission is to make disciples (http://nazarene.org/ministries/super...n/display.html) seems to consistently go for making converts while ignoring its mission and one of Jesus' commands

[Paul DeBaufer]

I think they have a bigger problem than we do, Perseverance of the Saints (without Limited Atonement). I think that IF salvation comes as the result of this magic incantation then with the SBC that salvation is permanent and one can live as they want to, no need for church or growth or submitting to the Holy Spirit. We, on the other hand, do not have eternal security as they understand it. No, for us IF we are saved through recitation of the magic spell, well we can toss that salvation away by not living into our newly professed faith.

I say IF because I'm not convinced that recitation of the so called "sinner's prayer" gives salvation. It may follow and be the culmination of a journey to faith, as it did for me, or as I read in one of Billy Graham's books, it may put someone on the path to conversion and salvation. Dr. Graham was talking about the alter calls held at his crusades. He expressed doubt that many who came forward actually experienced conversion (which is between them and God) at that moment. He did say he thought a few did, bu8t that for most the best he hoped for was it put them on the path to conversion and salvation. I wish I could remember the name of the book.

[Todd Erickson]

When I got saved, I essentially said the sinner's prayer, then took a class to learn how to say that, if I died, I knew I would go to heaven. Everything else was osmosis.

I hear people (like my dad) talk about other methodologies, but have never seen them...

Of course, quibbling about the sinner's prayer is also an excellent way of giving people ways to be further neurotic about whether they're actually saved, and to freak out every time they walk into an empty room and wonder if the rapture has happened without them.

I'm sure this all achieves something.

[Ryan Scott]

I don't talk about a sinner's prayer; I generally cringe when people bring it up.

Unless we're committing to the sentiments therein at every moment of every day, we're not walking with Christ.

I don't have a problem with the concept, but I think in practice the idea of a sinner's prayer, an instantaneous salvation, and a "personal relationship with Jesus Christ," have done more harm than good in society.

I don't talk about any of them and I hope they'll eventually die off.

[Greg Farra]

Here's the original sinner's prayer:


Luke 18:13

New International Version (NIV)


13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

[Dennis M. Scott]

Seems like there are better methodologies, but there are some good aspects of such a prayer. It usually is used after and when a person has realized their need for grace and forgiveness. It also can be a preliminary introduction to prayer of any kind. It can be the beginning of a meaningful walk with the Lord. It is a means of grace for some, and we might want to hesitate to keep it from anyone. It is considerably better than the nothing we more commonly use. Few of us when we began our journey understood a whole lot about what a walk with the Lord would mean. For most of us, our walk has included a lot of prayers, and many of them have been "sinner's prayers." Like Four Spiritual Laws, Evangelism Explosion, Steps to Peace with God, Roman Road of Salvation, etc., etc., we're better off to know how to use them. We probably don't need yet another incantation, but it would be helpful to have something easily learned and taught, to use when the Spirit is moving.

My own personal conversion experience at age six was even worse theology than a sinner's prayer, but it began a lifelong relationship with the Lord. If I had waited until I understood it completely, I probably wouldn't be a Christian now. The Lord seems to be able to use "something" to build on more often than "nothing." I doubt the disciples understood what "Come, follow me", meant either. Jesus rarely used the same presentation twice: only Nicodemus was told "Ye must be born again." Does that mean that nobody else needs to be born again? Likely not. Jesus apparently thought Nicodemus could get the concept, but as far as we know it didn't seem to fit others.

I hold scripture in pretty high regard. Yet sometimes we forego using effective things because we can't prooftext.

[Ryan Scott]

Dennis is right - it's not necessarily the prayer itself, but the theology that surrounds it.

There's nothing wrong with asking forgiveness for sins - of course we should be praying that prayer all the time.

I know when I was younger, I was taught (by who I no longer remember) to remind people who prayed that prayer that they never had to pray it again - that God took their sins away and it was over. I'm just not sure we communicate a life of holiness well through such a prayer.

We should promote asking for forgiveness, but perhaps we need a different name for it?

[Kyle Borger]

I'm not really disturbed by the thought of having someone commit their life to Jesus and giving Jesus control of their heart in a prayer. It is an initial conversation into a relationship with Jesus. I am disturbed by what seemed like an over-emphasis on an initial prayer with less emphasis on a process of transformation.

A good manager will take a new hire and lead them through the expectations of the job. They will show them how to do the job, make sure the employee understands, have the employee demonstrate their ability to perform the task, and then evaluate.

A bad manager will take a new hire give them a few bits of information and let them figure it out on their own.

My experience has been that some pastors were bad managers when it came to introducing people to Jesus. They got them started, but didn't have the tools or the ability to walk the new Christian through being a Christian. The new Christians were invited to sit in on a Sunday School class and in church services. Both usually provided material more appropriate for mature Christians, while the children's department was actually covering material that might have helped the new Christian. (Your church may have been different. This is based on my perception of my life experiences.)

I suppose I am simply saying that all of us need to do a better job at helping Christians with their spiritual transformation. We need to do a better job of teaching them how to read the Bible, not just for information but so that God can speak to them. We need to do a better job of teaching them what correct behaviors are and holding them accountable in the areas of their life that are not under God's control. We need to do a better job of teaching them how to go and make disciples of Christ.

I don't want to be a pastor that views success as leading a person to Christ. I pray that God will use me to participate with people as their lives are transformed in Christ. I am sad because it seems that some who were my pastors weren't taught how to live with their congregation in relationship. In fact it seemed to be a part of their mode of operation that they were supposed to not be relational with anyone in their congregation lest they show favoritism. I think the concept that a pastor should not be friends or relational with his/her church is damaging. I would say that it is impossible to demonstrate the saving grace of Jesus without living in relationship with those who seek spiritual guidance from you.

[Larry Parsons]

I'm not really disturbed by the thought of having someone commit their life to Jesus and giving Jesus control of their heart in a prayer. It is an initial conversation into a relationship with Jesus. I am disturbed by what seemed like an over-emphasis on an initial prayer with less emphasis on a process of transformation.

A good manager will take a new hire and lead them through the expectations of the job. They will show them how to do the job, make sure the employee understands, have the employee demonstrate their ability to perform the task, and then evaluate.

A bad manager will take a new hire give them a few bits of information and let them figure it out on their own.

My experience has been that some pastors were bad managers when it came to introducing people to Jesus. They got them started, but didn't have the tools or the ability to walk the new Christian through being a Christian. The new Christians were invited to sit in on a Sunday School class and in church services. Both usually provided material more appropriate for mature Christians, while the children's department was actually covering material that might have helped the new Christian. (Your church may have been different. This is based on my perception of my life experiences.)

I suppose I am simply saying that all of us need to do a better job at helping Christians with their spiritual transformation. We need to do a better job of teaching them how to read the Bible, not just for information but so that God can speak to them. We need to do a better job of teaching them what correct behaviors are and holding them accountable in the areas of their life that are not under God's control. We need to do a better job of teaching them how to go and make disciples of Christ.

I don't want to be a pastor that views success as leading a person to Christ. I pray that God will use me to participate with people as their lives are transformed in Christ. I am sad because it seems that some who were my pastors weren't taught how to live with their congregation in relationship. In fact it seemed to be a part of their mode of operation that they were supposed to not be relational with anyone in their congregation lest they show favoritism. I think the concept that a pastor should not be friends or relational with his/her church is damaging. I would say that it is impossible to demonstrate the saving grace of Jesus without living in relationship with those who seek spiritual guidance from you.

Just recently we had a family from a Baptist church to visit us. Couple of days later I was talking to the wife and she told me that her husband won't go back to a Baptist church and the reason one sunday after vacation Bible school they had 27 snall children to repent the sinner pray and were baptist. To him they were to young to understand and this was thier first to be in church. The trouble with a lot of Baptist they believe that one time pray of faith is all that you need and after that you live like a devil.
Thanks
Larry

[Dennis M. Scott]

A few decades ago, we were working in an urban effort, with the resources to distribute three thousand Christmas gifts. We held rallies in various parts of town, with a Christmas evangelistic service, followed by giving the gifts to the children. For many, it was the only gift they got that year. In the service, we asked people to raise their hands if they wanted to "give their hearts to Jesus". Evaluating at the end of the week, we rejoiced that more than five thousand people had "made decisions", and immediately some talked about the next year giving out ten thousand gifts. I asked, "What did these five thousand people decide?" The leader responded, "Why, to follow Jesus, of course." My retort was, "If five thousand people made that decision, we've got a lot of follow-up work to do before we hand out any more Christmas gifts."

[Todd Erickson]

I was "saved" at the age of 6.

No attempt was ever made to disciple me.

I went through the usual sunday school classes at various ages, but when I got old enough to really see how things didn't work and ask questions about it, nobody wanted to answer those questions.

I've even been in churches where asking questions was a sign of rebellion. One of those churches ended my brother's interest in church.

My father, who led me in the sinner's prayer, never taught me about serious prayer or bible study. His one real regret for me growing up is that he didn't realize I was buying secular music, as he would have stopped me and restricted me to listening to Gaither Gospel music.

Along with all of the bible stories in sunday school and the sermons on "another sin you didn't know you were committing" I picked up all sorts of accidental teachings about who God is and how we treat others that my parents never intended for me to pick up...but because nobody was intentional about what I was picking up, I did.

Church really isn't designed for discipleship, it's designed for LCD Christians to hopefully wake up and mature. And I'm not talking seeker ministries, I'm saying that new Christians are expected to drop into the same system that everybody else uses, and hopefully God will get ahold of them, and they'll hear things that others haven't, and really develop.

I wish somebody had done what Dennis refers to as followup work with me. At some point. But it never happened. I had to learn to ride the bike myself.

[Dennis M. Scott]

Lest I misrepresent the above scenario, the week we gave out Christmas gifts in thirteen different community centers culminated a couple years of preparatory work, and some of the parties at work have continued to work there in the decades since. Frankly, it was an amazing experience for me, and one I haven't seen replicated anywhere since. It was a great harvesting tool. Jesus used the analogy of fishing with nets: "I will make you fishers of men." They were net fishermen. Analogies only carry us so far, however.

My preference would have been to organize church-like classes in each of those locations as discipling efforts, perhaps conserving the harvest a little better than we did.

[Susan Unger]

This is why I prefer the emphasis on being a part of the Kingdom - it has a greater understanding of what being a christian is about. It is far away from saying the sinner's prayer and poof! You're set.

[Ian Gentles]

In its self its harmfull. As long as theres a good programme of discipelship following it, then its fairly safe.

[Sarah Smith]

Spent many years in the SBC due to geography.

They are not a denomination but rather a convention to begin with.

They are not built around predestination or limited atonement. Many are quite Arminian. Some Arminians are once-saved-always-saved, and not all Arminians are Wesleyan Arminians.

I never EVER encountered anyone in an SBC church that taught you just pray a magic incantation, go merrily on sinning, and are good for heaven.

Rather, they did teach our job is to make converts and then disciple them. They do teach that if the person does not change--with the Holy Spirit in control of the timing--then it was most likely a false conversion.

Some churches focus on disciple making, forgetting that you cannot disciple the unconverted.

But the Baptists did teach strongly that there is no justification without regeneration. That is, no one gets saved without God changing their heart.

I have a choice now, so I sure am not SBC and hope never to be again

But if we castigate them, let's do it honestly and accurately.

[Kyle Borger]

Spent many years in the SBC due to geography.

They are not a denomination but rather a convention to begin with.

They are not built around predestination or limited atonement. Many are quite Arminian. Some Arminians are once-saved-always-saved, and not all Arminians are Wesleyan Arminians.

I never EVER encountered anyone in an SBC church that taught you just pray a magic incantation, go merrily on sinning, and are good for heaven.

Rather, they did teach our job is to make converts and then disciple them. They do teach that if the person does not change--with the Holy Spirit in control of the timing--then it was most likely a false conversion.

Some churches focus on disciple making, forgetting that you cannot disciple the unconverted.

But the Baptists did teach strongly that there is no justification without regeneration. That is, no one gets saved without God changing their heart.

I have a choice now, so I sure am not SBC and hope never to be again

But if we castigate them, let's do it honestly and accurately.

I stand corrected although I do not believe that my wording equals castigate. Within the article there were different views. One of the main authors in other sources was listed as a 5 point Calvinist. I don't know that much about the baptists and apparently that shows, but I did research David Platt. I still find it interesting that there is a debate over the sinner's prayer by anyone who is Calvinist. That was my point in the statement.

Yes, I know there are different levels of Calvinist as well and only the most extreme say that only those God has chosen are saved and the rest are not.

[Steven Burton]

Spent many years in the SBC due to geography.

They are not a denomination but rather a convention to begin with.

They are not built around predestination or limited atonement. Many are quite Arminian. Some Arminians are once-saved-always-saved, and not all Arminians are Wesleyan Arminians.

I never EVER encountered anyone in an SBC church that taught you just pray a magic incantation, go merrily on sinning, and are good for heaven.

Rather, they did teach our job is to make converts and then disciple them. They do teach that if the person does not change--with the Holy Spirit in control of the timing--then it was most likely a false conversion.

Some churches focus on disciple making, forgetting that you cannot disciple the unconverted.

But the Baptists did teach strongly that there is no justification without regeneration. That is, no one gets saved without God changing their heart.

I have a choice now, so I sure am not SBC and hope never to be again

But if we castigate them, let's do it honestly and accurately.

That is why a fair amount of those in there convention don't even know what they really stand for. I have meet other SBC that do go with predestination and limited atonement. I think it is more up to which person you are talking to than anything else.

[Wilson Deaton]

I haven't read all the other replies so forgive me for potential redundancies, etc.

My take:

Nothing whatsoever wrong with the sinner's prayer.

There is something very wrong with the notion that the evangellistic task is finished once it is prayed. (I always loved Chic Shaver's phrase for this approach: "Hit-and-run evangelism.")

Wilson

[Gary Condon]

In spite of the problems of the sinner's prayer as discussed here, it has for me a few good points. 1. It serves as a defining moment. 2. It serves as an introduction. 3. It makes one aware of a couple of basic components of our relationship with our Maker. 4. It causes introspection.

If the above steps are relevant and maybe even necessary and the sinner's prayer is faulty, then it would be great to come up with a better introductory event.

In any case, what happened to me was that, through the prayer, I was drawn to pursue more knowledge about spiritual things and follow further moments of enlightenment through other peoples lives and my own life experience.

With all of that said, those who have been drawn to begin a spiritual journey under my influence were mostly befriended into it.

[Susan Unger]

In spite of the problems of the sinner's prayer as discussed here, it has for me a few good points. 1. It serves as a defining moment.

I agree with this point especially.

[Sarah Smith]

Much as I disagre with the Baptist Faith and Message 2000, it is pretty clear that both Calvinist and Arminian theology fit within its parameters.

It doesn't mean the rank and file have no idea what it teaches. It means they allow a fair amount of latitude on those two issues.

At least til this summer and the traditionalist resolution, which may lead to the 5 pointers leaving.

So whatever they are for good or ill, they are not built around total depravity and predestination as a convention.

Some within it do hold that position, but it is in no way an offical position.

As to discipling, if they are utilizing the resources the convention makes available they will have SS and Discipleship Training on Sundays. Lots of discipling in those.

So can't say as a convention they hold to hit and run conversions.

Individuals might. Individual churches, being autonomous, might. But it isn't an official convention practice.

Now if they ever figure out females can be adults

[Ryan Pugh]

I'm not sure I understand the significance of the sinner's prayer, because salvation seems to be something lived out, but I'm not about to deny its significance to others... as long as we remember that the most important decision to follow Christ that anyone makes is the next one.

I think it's important to note the numerous connections in scripture between salvation and all aspects of life, especially economy. In Luke 19, Zaccheus says to Jesus, "Look, Lord, I give half of my possessions to the poor. And if I have cheated anyone, I repay them four times as much."

And Jesus replies, "Today, salvation has come to this household because he too is a son of Abraham."

[Kyle Borger]

I would venture that we all know people who have said a prayer asking Jesus into their lives with little to no effect, in fact as a teen it seemed like the same kids did it every year at camp. The prayer isn't necessarily a life changer if the intent is not there and action isn't taken to transform. My take is that the prayer is transformational if the person praying actually chooses to give Jesus control of their life. In giving Jesus control of their life they then begin the process to give Jesus everything even the things they control but don't know they are controlling. Two crisis moments do seem to be clear. The first is when you give your life to Jesus and choose to follow him, the next is when you realize you have been trying to follow Jesus in your own strength and control and decide to let every action, every decision, every breath be based on God's strength. In our weakness, God's strength and glory shine through. When we are strong only we shine.

As a Christian, Jesus is important. You try and obey and you try and do what is required of you to be a Christian. As a sanctified (transformed) Christian, your entire life is Jesus. "Try" is no longer valid because your entire existence depends on God.

Perhaps we had a time in our churches in America as a whole where trying to live as a Christian was enough. Perhaps that was all the pastors knew or understood. My hope is that our position as a Holiness church will require that we provide relationships that will call people towards Holiness.

We can debate academics and different theologies but in the end we must all proclaim that we must depend completely upon God. You can believe that creation took 6 days or 6 billion years. You can believe that God's knows every thought and every thought that will be had, or you can believe that God can't know that which does not exist. You can be concerned or you can be indifferent.

But may we all use every ounce of energy we have to proclaim that Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior and may we all use every ounce of energy to make it clear that salvation comes from complete surrender of our will to Jesus. May we make the effort to engage in real relationships to assist others in transforming their lives.

I attempt to understand God and most likely I usually fail. Some will judge me because I ask a question and I enjoy trying to figure out how God works. I don't care if I am right or wrong about how God actually works, except for one central core theme.

To be saved I must love God with all my heart and with all my soul and with all my mind. (This means total submission. Everything I am about or do must first be about God.) To be save I must also love my neighbor as myself. This requires me to dedicate my life and all that I do to lead others to obey both these commandments.

I am not called to lead people to a prayer that introduces them to Jesus. (This is an important step, but if you stop there you should be sued for malpractice.) I am called to lead people to Jesus and then shepherd them into a life long pursuit of total abandonment of self to Christ. Only once we remove our selfishness do we find who we were created to be.

The prayer in and of itself isn't harmful, but how it has been used could be.

P.S. This call isn't just for pastors. Every Christian is called to make more Christians. You are the only way we can reach the world because you are the one with connections with non-Christians. A pastor can only handle so many relationships. If you are relying on the pastor to save everyone in your community it isn't going to work very well.

[Dale Cozby]

When asked what to do, Peter gave us this.
Repent.....from your known sins at the time perhaps?
Be baptised(I would assume this is the same as a public confession of faith...sort of the ABC prayer)
in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins.(I suppose one could equate this to the thought Jesus said he would be ashamed of us if we were ashamed of him so we declare our faith in him showing we are not ashamed of him.
Save yourselves from a corrupt generation.... could be seen as coming out while being in.
Follow-up:
Those who accepted his message( how did they accept it?) were baptised....this became the sign of thier acceptance.
Then records they devoted themselves to learning from the apostles...became disciples of the disciples.
Then they stayed in fellowship everafter.....

So should we cut people to the heart, Preaching Christ crucified for repentence, then baptism for forgiveness, then disciplship to fill in the gaps of understanding and faith and fellowship for love and friendship.

[David Graham]

The "sinners prayer" as I understand it, a useful tool for a person to enter a relationship with God through his Son Jesus Christ. And yet, it is but a prayer, or a request to God for salvation and is not salvic in itself. In all cases it is God who knows the heart, and God who declares us "saved" and "no longer guilty"!

But...... to say that it is the one and only "magic formula" is flawed, because as has been already said, there are other scriptural examples that make no mention of a specific "prayer of repentance".

However..... in all situations I would suggest, there needs to be a personal sense of humility towards God; a recognition of former sinfulness (or at least personal moral inadequacy); and an indication that the person was determined to follow Christ (i.e. Faith in Christ as Lord) To these some might add a determination to "sin no more" and to "make restitution".

But restitution appears to be more optional in the scriptural stories, although the early church appears to have placed a high premium upon it...... certainly IMHO restitution can remove barriers to a person's growth towards Christlikeness.

And to "sin no more" was certainly spoken by Christ to the woman caught in adultery, but no such instruction was given to the rich young ruler or by Paul to the Philippian Gaoler. I personally think, that a penitant attitude includes a loathesome attitude towards sin and that following Christ should draw a person towards the "sanctified" life.

[Benjamin Burch]

Yes, the sinner's prayer is harmful because it does a few things:

(1) It lies to the one doing it, telling them that salvation is normative outside of Baptism
(2) It lies to the one doing it, telling them that salvation is a matter of Jesus coming into us, instead of us being Baptised into Jesus, conforming to Jesus
(3) It lies to the one doing it, telling them that the Church is not an integral part of salvation

[Dan Henderson]

The sinner's prayer does not lie, Ben, you just disagree with its premise. You tend to use the term lie, for concepts with which you disagree. Lie is the opposite of true. It is not a term appropriate for use with concepts or people wth which you disagree.

[Susan Unger]

Yes, the sinner's prayer is harmful because it does a few things:

(1) It lies to the one doing it, telling them that salvation is normative outside of Baptism
(2) It lies to the one doing it, telling them that salvation is a matter of Jesus coming into us, instead of us being Baptised into Jesus, conforming to Jesus
(3) It lies to the one doing it, telling them that the Church is not an integral part of salvation

The sinner's prayer does not lie, Ben, you just disagree with its premise. You tend to use the term lie, for concepts with which you disagree. Lie is the opposite of true. It is not a term appropriate for use with concepts or people wth which you disagree.

In my experience, it is a pretty strong, wrong premise. You've missed over four years of my venting on Naznet about my years in my childhood Nazarene church with crazy theology and unloving "church" family [and I am too healed to give details at the moment] but I believe if I had heard and if it had been regularly preached in my church that a. salvation is not normative outside of baptism, b. salvation is being baptized into Jesus and conforming to Jesus and c. that the church is an integretal part of salvation, I might not have had the emotional/spiritual scars that I do. I am still dealing with one of these serious wounds still TODAY.

[Benjamin Burch]

The sinner's prayer does not lie, Ben, you just disagree with its premise. You tend to use the term lie, for concepts with which you disagree. Lie is the opposite of true. It is not a term appropriate for use with concepts or people wth which you disagree.

Actually, Dan, if you can show me any instance of scripture which supports any of the (3) premises which the sinner's prayer is built upon and communicates to the one reciting it, then I'll humor you in further conversation. Until the, I hold these (3) premises to be lies. They are not biblical, and in fact run 180 degrees counter to what the Bible communicates.

(1) Baptism is always communicated to be the normative means of salvation in the NT, whether it is the Gospels, Acts, Paul, or Peter. They're all in agreement.
(2) There is not a single verse in the NT that I am aware of where it says that Jesus enters into our lives. Every instance I am aware of speaks of us being grafted into Christ, being baptized into Christ, and becoming a part of his body, not the other way around.
(3) Both of the first two - Baptism and inclusion in Christ's Body - are both products of the Church, and the fact of letters and Gospels in the NT... that is, the premise behind every NT document... is that Christianity is a group exercise, and is only carried out in groups, known as "churches."

[Dan Henderson]

In my experience, it is a pretty strong, wrong premise. You've missed over four years of my venting on Naznet about my years in my childhood Nazarene church with crazy theology and unloving "church" family [and I am too healed to give details at the moment] but I believe if I had heard and if it had been regularly preached in my church that a. salvation is not normative outside of baptism, b. salvation is being baptized into Jesus and conforming to Jesus and c. that the church is an integretal part of salvation, I might not have had the emotional/spiritual scars that I do. I am still dealing with one of these serious wounds still TODAY.

That sounds like "There is no Salvation outside the Church", which can be interpreted (at least) two ways, 1st, if the Church is the body of Christ, then the statement is moot. 2d, If the statement applies to a church definition other than the 1st, then it is one of two prevailing thoughts in the CoTN with which I strongly disagree. As for the Sinner's Prayer, its simply a tool, and just like any other tool, in the right hands, its a blessing, in the wrong hands, its a curse.

Notwithstanding, "There is no Salvation outside the Church" is one of those Greathouse/Dunning utterances with where I have personally heard their explaination (their lips to my ears) and still disagree.

[Dan Henderson]

I don't talk about a sinner's prayer; I generally cringe when people bring it up.

We no longer admit to being sinners, we are too "sophisticated" for that. You can't have someone admiting they are a sinner, that's judgemental. (sarcasm button firmly pressed)

[Bob Carabbio]

Ignoring the articles, which are just "Other theological opinions", I think we ALL know that parroting a "Prayer" where all the "Right things" are said, and sticking an "Amen" on it (as thought that meant something), isn't changing anything in and of itself.

But I've seen OVER AND OVER again, "Alter workers" getting a person to "Pray" and then telling them they're "Saved now". And then you never see 'em again.

On the OTHER HAND Crying out to God in repentance from an agony of Conviction of SIN (which is the beginning of faith), and asking for forgiveness and salvation WILL do "spiritual business", and result in REAL conversion. When I cried out - everything changed, and I was "new".

And the thing that STARTED the process - was the face of a new convert. When I looked at Pete, there was a Peace 1000 miles deep, and a joy beyond definition, and I KNEW he "had it", and that If I didn't "GET IT" - I'd die. It was that bone-simple. I Did "Get it" the next evening, and 50 years later, with the end closing in, it's STILL THERE!!! God has been much more faithful that I ever was.

I remember the "I found it" campaign back in the '60s, and how when they checked back a year later only a TINY percentage of those who had "Prayed with the worker", had gone on to any sort of continued Church association.

So I don't have any problem with Graham's statement that it could "Start something", but as I see it, the PRIMARY PROBLEM in Christendom is related to the question of "What's FAITH" - and what's nothing more that "Intellectual ascent" with some accompanying "Religious activity".

Folks sometime say they're worried about "holding on to their faith", when in actuality, FAITH (if it's Biblical faith) "Holds YOU".

It seems that we're HESITANT to speak the REALITY of our position as Christians before God - PERFECT in His sight by Faith, NOT "Perfect" experimentally, but in the PROCESS of Sanctification as detailed in Rom 8:28-30.

[Benjamin Burch]

We no longer admit to being sinners, we are too "sophisticated" for that. You can't have someone admiting they are a sinner, that's judgemental. (sarcasm button firmly pressed)

My church does, and prays for forgiveness weekly!

[Eric Frey]

My church does, and prays for forgiveness weekly!

Not just weekly! Daily!

Morning prayer begins with:

Dearly beloved, we have come together in the presence of
Almighty God our heavenly Father, to set forth his praise, to
hear his holy Word, and to ask, for ourselves and on behalf
of others, those things that are necessary for our life and our
salvation. And so that we may prepare ourselves in heart and
mind to worship him, let us kneel in silence, and with
penitent and obedient hearts confess our sins, that we may
obtain forgiveness by his infinite goodness and mercy.

Evening prayer begins with

Dear friends in Christ, here in the presence of Almighty God,
let us kneel in silence, and with penitent and obedient hearts
confess our sins, that we may obtain forgiveness by his
infinite goodness and mercy.

Compline begins with

Let us confess our sins to God.

Each is then followed by a general confession...

[Benjamin Burch]

Not just weekly! Daily!

Morning prayer begins with:



Evening prayer begins with



Compline begins with



Each is then followed by a general confession...

This is true.

[Gary Condon]

Falsani: 
Did you actually go up for an altar call?

OBAMA:
 Yes. Absolutely.
It was a daytime service, during a daytime service. And it was a powerful moment. Because, it was powerful for me because it not only confirmed my faith, it not only gave shape to my faith, but I think, also, allowed me to connect the work I had been pursuing with my faith.

[Kevin Rector]

(1) It lies to the one doing it, telling them that salvation is normative outside of Baptism

It is not baptism that saves. It is normative for Christians to be baptized, but salvation comes by grace through faith.

If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved. As the Scriptures tell us, “Anyone who trusts in him will never be disgraced.” Jew and Gentile are the same in this respect. They have the same Lord, who gives generously to all who call on him. For “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” Romans 10:9-13 (NLT)

(2) It lies to the one doing it, telling them that salvation is a matter of Jesus coming into us, instead of us being Baptised into Jesus, conforming to Jesus

Unless "Jesus coming into us" is understood as Christ's likeness making us more like Christ (which is how I am sure most Evangelicals understand it even if they do not or can not articulate it). This is really just a simple way of articulating that Christ changes us, and makes us more like Him. At the worst it is not nuanced nor sophisticated, but it is by no means a "lie". For the record, I agree that it is more clear to articulate that we come into the body of Christ than that Christ comes into us... but it is really un-graceful to call it a "lie".

(3) It lies to the one doing it, telling them that the Church is not an integral part of salvation.

Here you are just plain wrong, because the sinner's prayer is brought to the penitent BY the church, therefore, the very presence of the church in offering the prayer communicates that the church is an integral part of salvation. It is not the sinner's prayer that is the problem, it is the church failing to follow up and help the person continue down the road of Christlike living.

[Eric Frey]

It is not baptism that saves. It is normative for Christians to be baptized, but salvation comes by grace through faith.

here we go again...

[Kevin Rector]

here we go again...

Well, to be fair, Ben did say, "Baptism is always communicated to be the normative means of salvation in the NT..." and I simply replied with just one example of a scripture that points to believing/trusting as being the means of salvation.

Furthermore, while I love Ben, I simply will not allow him to go unchallenged when he comes onto Naznet and calls the basic teachings of the Church of the Nazarene, "lies". Repentance of sin and trust in Christ is the Normative means of salvation according to the Articles of faith of the Church of the Nazarene (as established by scripture).

VIII. Repentance
We believe that repentance, which is a sincere and thorough change of the mind in regard to sin, involving a sense of personal guilt and a voluntary turning away from sin, is demanded of all who have by act or purpose become sinners against God. The Spirit of God gives to all who will repent the gracious help of penitence of heart and hope of mercy, that they may believe unto pardon and spiritual life. (italics mine)

IX. Justification, Regeneration, and Adoption
9. We believe that justification is the gracious and judicial act of God by which He grants full pardon of all guilt and complete release from the penalty of sins committed, and acceptance as righteous, to all who believe on Jesus Christ and receive Him as Lord and Savior. (italics mine)


XII. Baptism
16. We believe that Christian baptism, commanded by our Lord, is a sacrament signifying acceptance of the benefits of the atonement of Jesus Christ, to be administered to believers and declarative of their faith in Jesus Christ as their Savior, and full purpose of obedience in holiness and righteousness.

Baptism being a symbol of the new covenant, young children may be baptized, upon request of parents or guardians who shall give assurance for them of necessary Christian training. Baptism may be administered by sprinkling, pouring, or immersion, according to the choice of the applicant.