What you think God wants a growing disciple to do in regards to “church”. Another way to state this is: What does this church want to say is “A practical way to live out what God’s wants.” Prioritize your list.
This is an assignment for our church board.
Alisa
Last edited by Kevin Rector; July 1st, 2012 at 08:44 PM.
I'd want clarification; those seem like two very different questions to me.
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Ryan,
The point of the discussion was what should a church/board expect in terms of a time commitment from leadership and attendees. Our church has a significant number of families that make it to worship service 2 of 4 services or once every three. At the last board retreat we felt we needed to focus on prayer and the study of God's word. We have geared our Sunday night services toward that. But the majority who come are the ones who were already involved in Sunday School/regular worship attenders/etc. IE these were not the ones we were hoping to draw in. We had limited Sunday evening prior to this for this very reason - the ones coming were ones that were already heavily involved in ministries. We have started some small groups on Sunday nights to try to get involved those who are not involved in a regular Sunday School. Now there is concern about Sunday evening attendance. Given the above, we are trying to determine what is a reasonable expectation of involvement. Hope this doesn't create even more confusion.
Alsia
Last edited by Alisa Stoll; June 29th, 2012 at 03:11 PM. Reason: fix wording
It seems to me that if you are striving for a generic "reasonable involvement" level then you are already focusing on the wrong aspect of church. Church isn't about how involved a person is, its about worship. Who cares if the only people who come to this activity or that are the same ones who come to the other times. It just shows you who is more interested in being there. I wonder why this is a question being posed to the board instead of a survey of the church congregation. It seems to me that all of the decisions to this point have likely (or should) been made by the board, but has anyone asked people what they would like to see and do as a congregation? (just some thoughts)
I harp on this too much, but to me "church" is what God's people do during the week and not what happens on Sunday. I also believe discipleship and spiritual formation happen much more through doing than through classes and intake of information.
I'd suggest focusing on communal and personal activities in the "rest of the world." Those people who only show up twice a month inhabit the world all the rest of the time - and helping/encouraging them to engage in what God is doing there when they're already present is the best way to do "church."
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The question of how a church can catalyze a spiritually engaged people is a perennial one. I have seen churches use all sorts of methods in an attempt to increase the number of people who are at church every time the doors are open; everything from guilt, to social hooks, to entertainment, to marketing, to outright bribery.Originally Posted by Alisa Stoll
I respect the desire to go beyond manipulation and trickery.
My only suggestion would be to do some research. The good ole days of the church organization were characterized by a significant percentage of the congregation having the church as the magnetic pole around which their life revolved.
What groups or activities seem to have a sustained following? How do those in charge of those groups/activities retain people's interest and attract new participants?
What level of participation does a strong, well-run group achieve? That should give an indication of the best that you can hope for. This one is important because you may find that even the most ardent followings are well short of the 52 week, 2-3 times per week level of involvement that many churches hold as the ideal.
It's not that people are any busier today, but they have far more choices and they don't want to 'spend themselves' all in one place. How can the church alter the proportion that they set aside for congregational activity?
I wish you the best.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
- C.S. LewisPost Thanks / Like - 2 Thanks, 0 Laughing
1. Way back before we moved locations, we were at something like 80% congregation involvement in things. Currently, 6 years later, 10% of the church does everything that needs to be done and fights burnout in the process.
2. This lack of involvement is generally reflected outside of the church. People who don't do much in the church also aren't really growing, or changing, or witnessing, or anything else. As our pastor says, "church should be the place where it's safe for you to learn to be the person you need to be outside of the church. But you need to decide to learn to become that person, and then work on it, rather than waiting for somebody to show you."
3. A lot of the important "game changers" for people are not self-evident, they're not clearly labeled. You can spend years growing and changing while your attention is on other things, and think that God isn't doing anything in your life, even though you're becoming a very different person in the process. But then, self awareness is not a big trend, necessarily, in our culture.
4. Our pastor is running a class on spiritual disciplines this coming fall that's a college level class. He's been required to dump several really useful books he wanted us to be reading, and instead have us buy a collection of articles that some guy has put together that he, personally, feels are helpful, despite it not being clear what his qualifications are for that. I still have the Nouwen book, even if it's not required anymore. But the church (catholic) has a whole list of activities that can lead to spiritual discipline and growth that the CotN generally eschews.
5. Is the purpose of the church (your group that meets on sundays) to grow and build that edifice, or members of the body where they are in the world? This speaks to Ryan's question, but isn't always obvious in difference.
6. I disagree with the statement that Sunday is just for worshipping God. We're supposed to worship God with our lives, which means that making Sunday a reinforced "this is all about God, not about you" means that it's actively hostile both toward relationship and toward people learning to be more like God. It can either be all about God and His presence, or it can be about our relationship, but if you keep up this mantra of "it's just about worshipping God" then you've decided what kind of church you have.
Prayer is a part of this process, too. I have thought similar thoughts as what you've discussed in your board meetings, Alisa. What came to mind was that in the midst of so much busyness in our lives, what is needed is for the congregation to be desperate for God, to want to chose to be with God more than other activities. If God is one choice amongst many, God may not be chosen. But if one is desperate for God and desperate to be in God's house with fellow 'children', then God is no longer a choice but a necessity. Pray for God [and being with his people] to be viewed more and more as a necessity than a choice.
Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth. 1 John 3:18
There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. 1 John 4:18a
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Prayer probably isn't enough. God only knows how many churches have treated prayer as a religious formula required for rebooting a church in decline. So we schedule prayer meetings and retreats and conferences and 24-hour prayer vigils and the decline continues, the spiritual malaise continues, the revival is a no-show.
If/when prayer seems ineffectual we reason that not enough people showed up for the prayer activities, or we didn't pray hard enough, or any number of explanations. Our efforts can become just as futile as those of the Baal prophets in 1 Kings 18:25-29.
I also think that 'desperation for God' is not a 24/7/365 thing but rather ebbs and flows with life circumstances. This in my opinion is something that the revivalists understood. Trouble comes to everyone and the relationships we form in times of abundance will help sustain us during times of desperation.
If we profess perpetual spiritual desperation, we will likely run headlong into a credibility gap that undermines both the church's authority and fellowship...the precise opposite of what we are trying to accomplish.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
- C.S. LewisPost Thanks / Like - 3 Thanks, 0 Laughing
There was a time in my life when I guess I thought all the "God action" had to take place at church and under duly appointed leadership.
Until Got upset that applecart with one of our many moves!
Today, I would say it prudent to poll the congregation and find out what, if anything more, the church can offer to feed them.
But I freely admit I've moved from seeing worship services as a time I give something to God over to seeing them as a time God gives something to me.
And once I've received that, rather than running down to the church umpteen times a week I see my calling as living it out--at home, in my neighborhood, and the world.
Then I go back again on Sunday and recharge. (Of course, I am also recharging in time spent alone with God during the week.)
I do believe in gathering corporately, but I don't believe we need to set expectations for how often folks will be there.
Maybe we need to trust the Holy Spirit to lead them a bit more.
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I think you and I have a different understanding of prayer because what you are describing is no where close to what I am describing/thinking of/refering to.
Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth. 1 John 3:18
There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. 1 John 4:18a
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I realize that. My response simply reflects years of hearing prayer invoked as some kind of magical silver bullet for all that ails the church.
I sometimes wonder if God is silent when we pray because he ask him to make our programs and organization successful. Maybe God needs to change us before our plans have any chance of being effective. I don't know that i'm disagreeing with anything you said, just making observations from my experience.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
- C.S. LewisPost Thanks / Like - 2 Thanks, 0 Laughing
Being desperate for God, and being desperate to be in God's house with God's children may be at times very different things.
One may be quite desperate for God, but have obligations raising small children that make being at church exactly the wrong thing to do to live out one's faith.
I have neighbors raising several special needs kiddoes while caring for a parent that is bedridden and has dementia.
They have a rich life with God, but the church isn't a major part of it. They cannot neglect the calling God has given them to attend yet more programs.
The number of programs a church offers and how well attended they are may not have a thing to do with how successfully that church is evangelizing and discipling.
And if a church is ill or dying, adding more stuff to be at and do probably won't help.
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The part that I highlighted is what needs prayer. Prayer is not a gimmick to me, rather it is like breathing or a way of life. When I pray for my church to become desperate for God, and especially more so than anything else, it is not as just another trick to pull or way to manipulate God to do something. It is a prayer that he will change people into wanting to be with God like a dehydrated person in a desert wants water. When we want God more than anything, we will make time for God and make time to be with his people.
My experience has been that until 6 years ago I lived in an area of intense poverty. The people had nothing - no money, no jobs, no decent home life, poor mental/emotional/physical health and little education. Those people who realized that they did have God were the most radical, on fire Christians. They were truly desperate for God. Worship was super sweet with these folks. They would linger in church for hours on end each week because they knew that if they were to survive the upcoming [miserable] week, they would need to have more of God than what one hour a week could give them. They needed the 3 - 7 hour of church a week that my friends' churches provided for them. Ex. Sunday night services lasted 3 hours regularly. This is after a Sunday morning service of several hours. TheWednesday evening servcies were 1 - 2 hours in length.
The last 6 years I have lived in a well off suburb in a church that hasn't needed God desperately, or maybe at all. In this environment, I feel like I am gasping for [spiritual] air. Since I have been here, the number of services has dwindled to one service. So, I pray every day that they come to realize what it means to be truly desperate for God and that that is where one truly lives and has joy. This is what I am suggesting Alisa and her board and church pray to occur at her church.
Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth. 1 John 3:18
There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. 1 John 4:18a
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I'm familiar with doing church in a well-off environment, and I would suggest that the desperation is there, just in a different and less obvious form. People with discretionary income have options when it comes to addressing their deep needs. The local church is not the only game in town for those who have money. I have observed that parachurch ministries seem to do quite well in my area, thus casting doubt on the church's oft-expressed notion that people are just greedy you-know-whats who are consumed by selfishness.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
- C.S. Lewis
I'm not saying that well off churches are filled with greedy people consumed with by selfishness, just saying that there is a difference between the two church environments. When one has nothing but God, and knows it, one tends to be more desperate for God than one for whom God is a choice.
Well, I think I am done now. I don't want to make this thread into something it wasn't intended. I just popped in here originally to give Alisa my suggestion.
Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth. 1 John 3:18
There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. 1 John 4:18a
Become an organ donor ~ donatelife.net ~ www.organdonor.gov
I have come to find that while every congregation is unique, traditionally, we have had the tendency to try to fit each unique congregation into the "Sunday School, Sunday morning worship, Sunday evening service, Wednesday evening service" template. While there may be variations (i.e., small groups instead of a worship service on Sunday evenings, Bible studies or prayer meetings on Wednesday evenings, etc...), it seems that there's often a significant resistance to changing this template.
Several years ago,I realized that the time, effort, and energy our congregation was spending on trying to continue with this traditional template just wasn't worth the fruit that was being borne. In fact, Sunday evenings, Wednesday evenings, and Sunday School were bearing little or no fruit.
5 years ago, we discontinued our Sunday evening services for the summer, with the understanding that we would resume the services at a time that coincided with the start of the school year, and that we would enthusiastically promote the re-start of the Sunday evening services. It worked--for about 2 weeks. Then it was back to the same "faithful few"--most of whom attended out of habit and/or obligation. 4 years ago, we again discontinued our Sunday evening services for the summer, with the understanding that the church board would re-evaluate things about the time of the start of school as to whether or not we would resume the services. At that time we decided to simply discontinue the Sunday evening services.
Two of the congregation's most long-term, faithful members of the congregation (one of whom was on the church board that decided to discontinue the services) left the congregation over that (ironically, they ended up transferring to another Nazarene congregation that did not have Sunday evening services). But that change in our congregation's schedule was just what was needed. It didn't happen quickly, but things have been changing slowly. It's taken 4 years, but because we have continued to evaluate things on an ongoing basis--without regard to having to work within the traditional schedule template--things are going well and fruit is being borne.
Our current weekly schedule is now this:
--Praise Team Music run-through rehearsal: Sundays 10:15am-10:45am;
--Sunday morning worship service: 11:00 (with a "children's sermon" in the service, followed by the children going to "Children's Church" during the regular sermon);
--Free "lite" lunch and Bible Study: Sundays from noon to 12:45;
--Pickup of bread products donation from Panera: Sundays at 8:00pm
--Distribute free Panera bread products from church building: Mondays 5:00pm - 6:30pm
--Praise Team rehearsal: Mondays 6:30pm - 7:30pm;
--Youth Group (Teen) meeting: Mondays 7:30pm - 9:00pm
--Use of the facilities by a 12-step group: Thursdays 8:30pm - 9:30pm;
--Ladies' meetings and Men's meetings about once per month on Saturdays;
--Youth activities about 1-2 times per month on Friday evenings.
We are just this week moving Praise team rehearsals and weekly youth meetings to Monday (as outlined above) from Wednesdays--just due to some schedules. We will have to see how that works out, but part of the reasoning was that people said that we already have to be at the church on Mondays because of the bread distribution (we don't get to choose what day we get the bread from Panera, so we are tied into that day if we want to continue that ministry--and we DO since it is bearing fruit), so let's just do everything on Monday night so people don't have to come out to the church 2 different nights per week.
That's a key to what we're dealing with in our particular congregation. We had one lady who is fairly new to the church (she's been attending a couple of years, and just officially became a member a few months ago), who said that recently she's been spending more time at church than at home (waking hours).
I'm not saying that this schedule is what every congregation should do. Right now, it's working for us. I'm a bit anxious to see how the change from Wednesdays to Mondays goes. But we're going to try it.
One thing that has worked really well since we began it several months ago was discontinuing our traditional Sunday School time before Sunday morning worship, and instead implementing a Bible Study/discussion based on the morning's sermon after the service--along with a free lite lunch for everyone who stays. Our Sunday School attendance has grown by approximately 150% or more since the change.
This probably works so well for us because of the small size of our congregation. As I said, every congregation is unique, and so the biggest things I would say in a general way are...
...don't feel that congregations need to stick to the traditional schedule template
...realize that people are busier and busier, and that many people simply can't or won't schedule multiple times at church per week
...continue evaluating what things are and are not bearing fruit, and decide how much time, effort, energy (and even money) should be expended in things that may be traditional, but aren't any longer fruitful.
Last edited by Pete Vecchi; July 1st, 2012 at 10:43 PM. Reason: Fixing typos
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He wants them to BE DISCIPLED, which basically means to Learn by observation and relationship with a "Journeyman" in the area that he wishes to pursue.
I'm the Chief Engineer for my company, and so I designed the robotic welder for our motor mount project, I did the initial mechanical design, and the first cut of the Control program.
And then I selected one of the Maintenance crew who worked with me as my "Disciple" to troubleshoot/debug the program, the mechanical system, and the Robot welders. Then as he got more confident, and capable, I dropped off and handled other projects unless he needed advice, and let HIM get the system into production making changes with my approval as he went along.
Then HE began "Discipling" others in the maintenance group, and some operators to be able to operate, and maintain the system in production.
After that - when the Second somewhat different weld system was needed - I did the mechanical first cut, and HE did ALL the programming for the system, and trained the operators and I wasn't involved hardly at all - except for Serious questions that popped up now and again.
FINALLY I promoted him into the Engineering department, and put him on salary at a compensation rate commensurate with his personal development.
THAT'S a successful "Discipleship" process - it Reproduces a significant portion of expertise of the "Journeyman", in the Disciple so that he can DO the Journeyman's job.
SO in the church environment - the Evangelist disciples evangelists, the Pastor disciples pastors, the Teachers disciple teachers, Visitation ministers disciple visitation ministers - IMPARTING to them by relationship, observation and participation in the process, the knowledge and ability to BE what they need to be.
"Discipleship", however, in many churches (Like mine), however, is really nothing more than just "another Sunday School class".
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Susan, My observation wasn't intended specifically for you. Some people really won't adapt well to ministry in wealthy environments, and that's okay. Those who don't follow Christ are equally lost, regardless of how much bank they have.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
- C.S. Lewis
Where the church falls down is in graduating disciples to 'journeymen'.
I have a theory that the church has envisioned graduation to journeyman in terms of joining the clergy. I don't see how a denomination can prevail when it doesn't value its non-clergy journeymen and find a meaningful way to utilize their gifts and graces.
To use a military metaphor...it would be like General Patton trying to win the war in Europe purely on the schooled efficiency of its Lieutenants.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
- C.S. LewisPost Thanks / Like - 2 Thanks, 0 Laughing
Thank you for the clarification.
Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth. 1 John 3:18
There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. 1 John 4:18a
Become an organ donor ~ donatelife.net ~ www.organdonor.gov
I need to define a few terms to explain my thoughts. Disciple = living in relationship with each other and learning how to love God, love people, and make disciples of Christ. Church = the community of disciples.
My expectations are that each person would be a part of a discipleship group which is only going to be 2-3 people. This group focuses on goals and accountability along with just experiencing life together. Each person would also be a part of a larger meeting where the greater community comes together to speak of what God is doing in their lives and to glorify God. The last one is that each person would be involved in making disciples. Their family are their first disciples and then other people they have built relationships with.
Yes, it is important that Christians spend time together in community. There is a spiritual impact on our lives when we share our love for God together in a group.
The only way this will work is if you are brave enough to actually tell people that is what you expect and hold them accountable. It is very possible that you will be forced out of that church if you do it. It may require you to use the current church to support a church plant. If any of you have heard Dr. Porter speak you know that he expects every church to plant a church all the time. Grab a group that are willing to live with those expectations and start meeting; start a church. It can be small and it can be in a living room. No money is required. Train up the leaders and then hand off the church. Start another one and have the each church know that they are expected to start another one.
Your foundational church may at some point in time decide they want to have the same growth the other churches you have planted are having and will be more willing to accept your terms.
Why have churches been failing? Partly because we have been afraid to hold them accountable. I'm not talking about needing to be in church 80% of the time and tithing and whatever else might be important. I am talking about holding people accountable for spiritual growth and determining that you will provide discipleship.
You might want to read Hal Perkins "If Jesus Were a Parent". Yes it is a parenting book but it also teaches you how to disciple.
Another book is Deliberate Simplicity by Dave Browning or Church 3.0 by Neil Cole
You won't incorporate all of the ideas but they may get you to see church in a whole new light.
My biggest take on lack of involvement in the church is that many people don't see where they are needed. Why go to church and sit and listen to the same stuff you have already heard or don't think you need to hear.
If you want excited people in church then ask them to help change the world and then give them the opportunity and training to do so by starting churches!
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I agree that starting a church forces a congregation to reshuffle and develop people, which invariably leads to 'discovery' of unutilized abilities and gifts that would have otherwise remained idle.
It's sad that many churches think about developing undiscovered people only when forced to do so by the crisis of planting a new church. (or responding to a split)
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
- C.S. LewisPost Thanks / Like - 1 Thanks, 0 Laughing
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