Opting to exit the CotN ordination process

[Ryan Plott]

I was wondering if any Naznetter had information on potential clergy members who opted to not complete the ordination proces because they did not feel comfortable answering "yes" to the ES question. If so, what church did they move to? Did they continue in ministry?

I have found myself in this situation and am seeking the stories/experience/wisdom of others who might have preceded me. It's been a very long and difficult process to opt out, and I am a bit spiritually disoriented after being in the CotN for 8+ years. I am wondering where others began the process of re-starting the process of being in ministry.

[Mike Schutz]

I don't have personal experience, but I want you to know that you are not alone. Blessings on your journey.

[Ryan Scott]

I'd like to know more about what you mean? I was ordained in May and through seven years of District License interviews I've never checked either yes or no on that space. I have described an experience in which God transformed my heart and life - something I was always taught was sanctification. However, through my studies later on, I've come to realize that our definitions and understandings are a bit too simplistic for me. John Wesley never claimed to be sanctified, but declared that his Aldersgate experience was his conversion, even though he'd been a priest for years.

My experience is much closer to his experience than it is to the "all on the altar" experience described to me growing up.

I have always been honest with every board I've interviewed with and they've all been quite open to affirm my experience as something they were comfortable calling entire sanctification, even if I was hoping for a more nuanced description.

Even if your understanding is different than mine, I would love to continue to speak with you about it, either here or in private.

I think it's certainly more admirable to process these beliefs now and make a change than to go through the motions and continue to pursue ordination. I think the latter happens far too often.

[Jon Bemis]

I too would be interested in what you mean regarding the experience of ES that has you discouraged. My understanding of sanctification may be somewhat different than some in the COTN, but is certainly not unique in that I understand our sanctification as a lifelong process that begins the moment someone commits to become a Christ-follower. While it is true this process has defining moments (which are more distinctly experienced by some than others) I think that the most important aspect is remaining committed to being shaped into the image of Christ.

[Ryan Plott]

I don't have personal experience, but I want you to know that you are not alone. Blessings on your journey.

Thank you Mike. I appreciate that greatly.

[Ryan Plott]

I'd like to know more about what you mean? I was ordained in May and through seven years of District License interviews I've never checked either yes or no on that space. I have described an experience in which God transformed my heart and life - something I was always taught was sanctification. However, through my studies later on, I've come to realize that our definitions and understandings are a bit too simplistic for me. John Wesley never claimed to be sanctified, but declared that his Aldersgate experience was his conversion, even though he'd been a priest for years.

My experience is much closer to his experience than it is to the "all on the altar" experience described to me growing up.

I have always been honest with every board I've interviewed with and they've all been quite open to affirm my experience as something they were comfortable calling entire sanctification, even if I was hoping for a more nuanced description.

Even if your understanding is different than mine, I would love to continue to speak with you about it, either here or in private.

I think it's certainly more admirable to process these beliefs now and make a change than to go through the motions and continue to pursue ordination. I think the latter happens far too often.

It was communicated to me that in order to be ordained, one must provide an answer to that question in the affirmative. An experience like yours is not one that I've encountered, in that the candidate, yourself, did not explicitly answer the question. My conflict does not center around a theological understanding of entire sanctification, there's an abundance of thought on that topic. Personally, I'm more along the lines of Wesley, than an "entire consecration" or "all on the altar" model.

The area that I struggled in the most was claiming entire sanctification. That was just something I did not feel that I ethically could do. It was more of a gut decision made over a long period of time. Maybe that will clarify some things. I appreciate your desire to dialogue. If you need more information just let me know, either privately or here. I not sure what else might be helpful for you to know. At the point of making the decision, I was at a crossroads. I wanted to be in ministry with the CotN but was not comfortable with saying "yes". If I am mistaken and saying "yes" is not a requirement, then I would need to reexamine some thnigs.

[Ryan Plott]

I too would be interested in what you mean regarding the experience of ES that has you discouraged. My understanding of sanctification may be somewhat different than some in the COTN, but is certainly not unique in that I understand our sanctification as a lifelong process that begins the moment someone commits to become a Christ-follower. While it is true this process has defining moments (which are more distinctly experienced by some than others) I think that the most important aspect is remaining committed to being shaped into the image of Christ.

I think we would be in agreement in terms of our thought process. The "Yes or No" question though is an absolute, and it is an absolute statement that I feel I cannot make.

[Billy Cox]

I think we would be in agreement in terms of our thought process. The "Yes or No" question though is an absolute, and it is an absolute statement that I feel I cannot make.

I have known people who have said 'yes' to the ES question and then proceeded to explain that their 'yes' meant something different from the AHM language in article X. On some districts, that will fly. On others it would not.

I have also known people who have said 'yes' and made sure to sprinkle in some keywords that would put their committee at ease while not actually surrendering an inch of theological territory. Some would say that's dishonest. Others would say that people who judge a person's theological compliance based on keywords deserve to have the wool pulled over their eyes.

It's kind of like math. If you can 'show your work' and explain your view of ES using scripture, reason, experience and tradition, then the chances are good that your qualified 'yes' would be acceptable...but possibly not in NBC's backyard.

[Hans Deventer]

Ryan, no comments from me but an expression of my appreciation for raising this topic and being so honest about it. I feel that if we need anything in the church, it is honesty.

[Wes Smith]

Ryan,

I doubt it would be possible to find two people in the Church of the Nazarene who would go into separate rooms and write out an identical definition of ES.

Personally I appreciate your expressions and based on what I've read here would vote in favor of keeping you in the program.

I have known of people who have transferred from one district to another in order to find more more generous examining board.

Funny thing, both when graduating from SNU (then, BNC) in 1969 and when ordained on the Sacramento District in 1975, I fell back on my embrace of Matthew 6:33 as my definition of ES. It is funny because both the examining faculty and ministerial board bought it though my answer wasn't the standard line at the time! I would answer quite the same these days but, to be honest, I've seen lots of classic ES over the years that has put me off like crazy. And, I have observed some varients that have attracted me like crazy. I'm only 9 months into retirement, but "seeking first" is still the definition I would give!

Friend,

Wes

PS. And, I owe much of my embrace of Matt. 6:33 to my friend and mentor, Prof. Richard Howard. Prof. was also strong on "The Divine initiative and the human response."

[Craig Laughlin]

Ryan, I say Amen to much of what has been written in this thread. I think it would be a shame if we loose you without further discussions. I've sat on credentials boards of two districts (KC being one of them). I have processed that question many times with people at all levels. (Course of study to folks wrapping up an M.Div) If you are interested I would be honored to process it and options with you. Send me a PM and we can talk on the phone or Skype or just exchange e-mails. That being said, it is not what you asked for.

Those I've know that have left, especially over this issue, have gone a wide variety of directions. I've seen an increasing number go to the Episcopal church. (I think that requires graduated level theological education but I'm not sure) I don't know this for sure but my experience says that the Christian Missionary Alliance can be more relaxed about the issues. (At least out here in the Pacific Northwest) I have also know many that have gone to the Methodist church. Because I don't know you educational background it is hard to say how much starting over there would be. If you have completed an M.Div then probably not a lot. Some classes. If you have done the modular program then there might be a lot.

Again I hope we don't loose you to our tribe but if we must I hope you will fulfill God's call on your life with one of our sibling tribes.

Grace and Peace Brother.

[Susan Unger]

Ryan, I say Amen to much of what has been written in this thread. I think it would be a shame if we loose you without further discussions. I've sat on credentials boards of two districts (KC being one of them). I have processed that question many times with people at all levels. (Course of study to folks wrapping up an M.Div) If you are interested I would be honored to process it and options with you. Send me a PM and we can talk on the phone or Skype or just exchange e-mails. That being said, it is not what you asked for.

Those I've know that have left, especially over this issue, have gone a wide variety of directions. I've seen an increasing number go to the Episcopal church. (I think that requires graduated level theological education but I'm not sure) I don't know this for sure but my experience says that the Christian Missionary Alliance can be more relaxed about the issues. (At least out here in the Pacific Northwest) I have also know many that have gone to the Methodist church. Because I don't know you educational background it is hard to say how much starting over there would be. If you have completed an M.Div then probably not a lot. Some classes. If you have done the modular program then there might be a lot.

Again I hope we don't loose you to our tribe but if we must I hope you will fulfill God's call on your life with one of our sibling tribes.

Grace and Peace Brother.

Episcopal church would require an M.Div. UMC would require eventually an M.Div. as well though my cousin-in-law is a Local Pastor in the UMC without an M.Div. But the expectation is that eventually he will be getting on to continue in the ministry. I don't know about other denominations.

[Ryan Scott]

It was communicated to me that in order to be ordained, one must provide an answer to that question in the affirmative. An experience like yours is not one that I've encountered, in that the candidate, yourself, did not explicitly answer the question. My conflict does not center around a theological understanding of entire sanctification, there's an abundance of thought on that topic. Personally, I'm more along the lines of Wesley, than an "entire consecration" or "all on the altar" model.

The area that I struggled in the most was claiming entire sanctification. That was just something I did not feel that I ethically could do. It was more of a gut decision made over a long period of time. Maybe that will clarify some things. I appreciate your desire to dialogue. If you need more information just let me know, either privately or here. I not sure what else might be helpful for you to know. At the point of making the decision, I was at a crossroads. I wanted to be in ministry with the CotN but was not comfortable with saying "yes". If I am mistaken and saying "yes" is not a requirement, then I would need to reexamine some thnigs.

There might be some awkwardness of me commenting too much - since my father is on the credential board in Colorado. I know I've spoken extensively with him about my own experience, obviously - but I've never actually had to have him pass judgment on my credentials.

As I said, I've not ever filled in the box, but I have extensively filled in the description (maybe most boards just assume a yes if there's something in the box, I don't know). I've simply described my experience of transformation. For me it was a moment, a real experience that I arose from prayer a different person - with internal and external evidences. It is something I wasn't sure I believed possible until I experienced it.

Some boards have asked about my understanding of sanctification - and I've given them the explanation I provided above, especially about how I resonate with the way Wesley spoke of things. Other boards have not asked at all (which I found even more alarming, quite honestly).

Ultimately, every board has seemed to be more interesting in a testimony to life transformation - something that lines up with our theological claims - that sanctification is something God does in us to re-orient our lives towards God.

Most of my concern has been over the subsequent life of holiness. I didn't expect to be perfect, but I haven't acted nearly as "sanctified" as I was led to expect - or quite frankly as I expect of myself.

My best advice would be to be honest with whoever is on the board interviewing you - or even request some meeting with a mentor/pastor outside the interview process. It's important to remember that the point of the credentialing process is not "to be ordained," it's to be discipled in ministry. Ordination may be the result, but it's not necessarily the goal; I do know Colorado does a pretty good job of following through with that mindset most of the time.

I never wanted to be ordained if the district didn't think I was ready. I tried to be as honest as possible in every interview (I often felt like I was giving them reasons to question me). Maybe I was lucky, but I always felt supported in my journey and I don't think questions like the one you've shared necessarily mean you need to step out of the process.

[Ryan Plott]

Ultimately, every board has seemed to be more interesting in a testimony to life transformation - something that lines up with our theological claims - that sanctification is something God does in us to re-orient our lives towards God.

Most of my concern has been over the subsequent life of holiness. I didn't expect to be perfect, but I haven't acted nearly as "sanctified" as I was led to expect - or quite frankly as I expect of myself.

My best advice would be to be honest with whoever is on the board interviewing you - or even request some meeting with a mentor/pastor outside the interview process. It's important to remember that the point of the credentialing process is not "to be ordained," it's to be discipled in ministry. Ordination may be the result, but it's not necessarily the goal; I do know Colorado does a pretty good job of following through with that mindset most of the time.

I never wanted to be ordained if the district didn't think I was ready. I tried to be as honest as possible in every interview (I often felt like I was giving them reasons to question me). Maybe I was lucky, but I always felt supported in my journey and I don't think questions like the one you've shared necessarily mean you need to step out of the process.

Thank you Ryan, this was very helpful. I'll make some inquiries and see what happens.

[Ryan Plott]

Ryan, no comments from me but an expression of my appreciation for raising this topic and being so honest about it. I feel that if we need anything in the church, it is honesty.

Thank you Hans. I appreciate that.