Could it be that 2 Corinthians 8:10-15, broadly speaking, is what Obama would envision as an ideal in our society?
It says, "...you're shoulder to shoulder with them all the way, your surplus matching their deficit, their surplus matching your deficit. In the end you come out even. As it is written, 'Nothing left over to the one with the most, Nothing lacking to the one with the least." (The Message)
As my kids would end a point with..."just sayin"
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I don't think Obama has much of a theology beyond the generic civil religion most politicians (and americans for that matter) live by.
He's certainly well versed in the Christians life as evidenced by a number of his speeches and interviews. He knows the church language pretty well. I wouldn't doubt his faith in God anymore than the average person in the pew at my church on Sunday morning.
That being said, I don't see him spending too much time applying theology to his job or his outlook on life - he's very typical in that way.
...just my $.02.
I have read that Obama has been influenced by writings of the Sojourners.
I like this verse and its principle. "The goal is equality, as it is written: “The one who gathered much did not have too much, and the one who gathered little did not have too little” (2 Cor. 8:14-15). I am not sure if Obama's ideology is based on this biblical principle. Some people are afraid Obama is pushing socialism but actually not quite. The health care issue, I believe, is rooted in solid constitutional provision for the general welfare of all people. I believe all people need basic access to some level of health care.
Post Thanks / Like - 7 Thanks, 0 LaughingEd DiSante, Valisha Trammell Hall, David Graham, Diane Likens, Steven Burton, Paul DeBaufer, John Kennedy - "thanks" for this post
I disagree. I think that this is true to the extent that Obama does what Hauerwas charges Americans routinely do:Originally Posted by Ryan Scott
However, he does so from a specific theological location. That is, he seems very much to be a UCC Christian from a liberal city who sat under preaching and theology which was heavily saturated with black liberation theology, such as James Cone."This is a presumption shared by the religious right as well as the religious left in America. Both assume that America is the church."
- Ben
Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death! And to those in the tombs, bestowing life!
Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!Post Thanks / Like - 1 Thanks, 0 Laughing
This would not surprise me, as Sojourners has a lot in common with liberal UCC conceptions of "justice" as it relates to Christianity.
- Ben
Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death! And to those in the tombs, bestowing life!
Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!
I have been saying well if you want life as part of the saying (life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness) then you need to take care of it and how do we take care of it with health care.
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I read an interview with Obama today from back when he was still in Chicago politics.
The feeling I get is that he was raised in a melange of influences, including some Muslim, and while he had a conversion experience at Rev. Jeremiah's church, his overall outlook is far more spiritual, perhaps liberal christian oriented, than anything from the Evangelical side.
http://cathleenfalsani.com/obama-on-...ive-interview/
Yep. I've been saying this for a long time. The reason Franklin Graham doubts Obama's faith is because Obama wasn't able to give him the answer he was looking for, because Obama isn't an evangelical trained in the vocabulary and dialect of Evangelical Christianity, and uses language much more at home in his own setting he was converted in and spent the first 20 years of his Christian life -- Black, Liberal, Mainline Protestant.perhaps liberal christian oriented, than anything from the Evangelical side.
- Ben
Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death! And to those in the tombs, bestowing life!
Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!Post Thanks / Like - 6 Thanks, 0 Laughing
Sojourners had its beginning at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School in a Chicago suburb. It still claims to be following Christ and living out the social implications of the gospel. This is, undoubtedly, extremely infuriating to those who feel that true Christian faith must be lived out within the context of conservative political/economic beliefs - Jesus would've been part of the tea party.
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Given Obama's background I think I understand at least the motivations behind his wanting universal healthcare. From a theological standpoint it makes sense if there is care for the poor, the widows and the orphans. Granted there is more to that, but in modern society as it is where better to start doing so on a governmental platform if not universal healthcare? I can't say the whole plan makes sense or that it isn't in need of improvements, but the theological ideal I see behind it makes good sense.
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I beleive in universal health care, that all should have access to medical help. I beleive also we should help the poor. But here is the question, Who are the poor? Seems to me Bible talks of folks helping themselfs, in other words, working! What gets to me is, imigrants takes millions from UK ecconomy in hand outs. Sure Bible tells us to welcome the stranger in our midst, but not soo sure it say finance his lifestyle?
As a European I feel Americans look too much to spiritual life of their leaders. I would rather a wise pagan leads my country than wooly minded christian. After all, Carter was an evangelical, and America didnt like him over much.
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Our immigrants are, for the most part, very hard working and highly exploited. But I suspect that there are different elements involved in getting to Australia than there are crossing the border into the U.S.
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Sadly in UK many imigrants pass through other European countries to get here as our hand outs are better. I speak from experiance as once, when a chaplain, worked with imigration.
Of course he has he is friend of Jim Wallis who is the founder of the anti -capitalist magazine call Sojourner.
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Larry
The thing is Ian, that your country and mine have had "Universal health care" systems in place for many decades, and so it has become a fact of every day life for us. We also have a "greater" sense of "Mateship" within our respective societies than e.g. US society which appears to be more individualistic and entrepreneurial than ours. So we often scratch our heads and ask..... what's all the fuss about???
Great question Ian...... Jesus said that the poor will always be with us.... in our neighbourhoods, in our cities, in our States/Provinces/Countries. i.e. Both at home and abroad. I think that the question is very much tied in with Jesus answer to the question "Who is my neighbour?"I beleive also we should help the poor. But here is the question, Who are the poor?
Yes indeed..... if they can, although some for numerous legitimate reasons cannot. We need to support them too!Seems to me Bible talks of folks helping themselfs, in other words, working!
Yep, we have the same problem too..... they come to us in leaky boats because they are desperate!What gets to me is, imigrants takes millions from UK ecconomy in hand outs.
If his/her lifestyle is "food, clothes, housing" then fair enough, we must do that. But I'm not so sure about those who e.g. live near our Golden beaches and spend their days enjoying the sun and the sand and the surf while living off welfare payments. The DSS out here are starting to clamp down heavily on these people and ensure that they are genuinly seeking paid work.Sure Bible tells us to welcome the stranger in our midst, but not soo sure it say finance his lifestyle?
Luther once said that: "he would much rather be ruled by a wise but ungodly ruler if he ruled well, than to be ruled by a Christian fool"! Trouble is, that we are content to be ruled by "ungodly fools" too often in your society and mine. I can think of many examples here that I won't mention on line..... so yes I would like to be ruled by a "sound Christian leader" for a change. In that respect I think that the US has gotten that part right!As a European I feel Americans look too much to spiritual life of their leaders. I would rather a wise pagan leads my country than wooly minded christian. After all, Carter was an evangelical, and America didnt like him over much.
Last edited by David Graham; July 4th, 2012 at 11:03 PM. Reason: Typo correction
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I don't believe that he has considered this verse. The President often speaks of the downtrodden and the disenfranchised, he speaks of them as helpless victims in need of aid. Whether his observation has any merit is probably better for another discussion. This isn't the tenor of this verse at all, rather equality is sought by cooperative effort, the recipients of the gift will provide when fortunes are reversed. I don't see this spirit contemplated in any true fashion by our President. His theology is continual enslavement of those who have for the benefit of those who do not,
-Jim
To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.
Garrison Keillor
Well that simply isn't true. It may work out that way, but it isn't the way the theology or ideology functions. I can get you in touch with some great UCC Christians, and a couple of Black mainliners if you'd like to know how the theology and ideology actually function. Again, it may work out the way you've stated, but that has nothing to do with the theology, on which you're quite wrong.
- Ben
Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death! And to those in the tombs, bestowing life!
Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!Post Thanks / Like - 2 Thanks, 0 Laughing
You are simply advancing facts without basis. The thread is about the President's theology, if in fact he has one. If their theology doesn't work this way then so be it. Really doesn't matter unless your looking at the differences between their theology and that which plays out in his utterances and actions.
So let's go back to "it might work out that way." Well yeah, as a matter of fact it does work out this way in words and in deed attributed to the President. We may differ on this, however as far as I'm concerned, "how it works out" is the theology, no matter what is stated or the theory espoused.
No need to introduce me anyone, this isn't germain to the thread. If the President attended a UCC church, and if you see similarities with his theology and theirs, great. And I've thanked your post when you indicated this. However, should his theology differ from theirs. So what? Doesn't really matter.
BTW; "Simply isn't true" and "your quite wrong" Surely is language where a "laughing" to your post would be deserved. Nothing more than bombast and bravado, puffing up your chest so to speak, you say these things then offer nothing to back your claims. In this case you propagate a non-sequitor.
-Jim
To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.
Garrison Keillor
So then the AHM people believe in lying and covering up sins constantly in the name of ES, labeling them "infirmities" instead?
That's essentially what you're saying, as this is what the effects of their theology -- in words and deeds -- for much of the CotN's history.
I don't believe such a thing, and I think it applies here to the President. He may have some very misguided ideas about how justice is achieved and his beliefs on how and his methods may in fact lead to a lot of injustice. However, to say that his theology is one of injustice simply obfuscates the issue, giving you a chance to slam a guy you hate so much.
I know, I know, you don't care about consistency. You've made that clear. You're more then comfortable being inconsistent so long as you win on every side. Good luck with that. Enjoy the recreation. I'll stick to calling it what it is.
- Ben
Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death! And to those in the tombs, bestowing life!
Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!Post Thanks / Like - 3 Thanks, 0 Laughing
Ben, I don't hate the guy at all. I was actually trying to point out that most in this thread seem to have missed the point of the verse. One hand washing the other. I don't believe this is where the President comes from.
Good grief, get a grip on yourself, your off the rails here.
-Jim
To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.
Garrison Keillor
Have no clue as to O's theology, but do NOT think the AHM folks were content with lying and calling it infirmity.
Rather, they recognized a difference in the following scenario's:
1. Man "A" goes fishing and catches a larger than usual trout--around a 15 incher. He tells his buddies over coffee next day and shows them by holding his hands apart. Trouble is, that trout grew about 5 inches in his fridge over night, apparently. His intention is to tell the truth, his human nature and poor spatial skills turn his "truth" into "not truth." That is infirmity.
2. Man "B" goes fishing and catches a measly 9 incher, but when man "A" is telling the story he just has to top it, and knowingly and intentionally states he caught a 20 incher. That is a lie.
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Hate probably isn't your preferred theological term ... And you seem to miss the fact that the President's position presupposes this. That is, if the rich are responsible for benefitting the poor, then said responsibility would apply to the poor when they become rich.... Just as this verse proposes.
- Ben
Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death! And to those in the tombs, bestowing life!
Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!Post Thanks / Like - 1 Thanks, 0 Laughing
To understand what I am referencing you would need to read mark quanstrom's century of holiness
- Ben
Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death! And to those in the tombs, bestowing life!
Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!
Your making the assumption that the poor will someday become rich. This is a mistake. The programs and policies that this President has championed are not those which will enhance movement out of poverty. I believe that it has been demonstrated by various means that this President's policies have actually increased the ranks of the poor.
There is more to the verse than a simplistic monetary see-saw. Implicit within the verse is the notion that these two groups are working together toward prosperity, shoulder to shoulder. Sorry but I don't see this being played out in what this President brings forward. It just isn't there.
-Jim
To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.
Garrison Keillor
Your making an assumption that seems unfounded to me. Sarah's posts here indicate to me that she understands the holiness movement and hominess people quite well. Maybe she could edit the book? Her answer to your assumption was spot on.
-Jim
To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.
Garrison Keillor
It actually failed to even address the point, which is why I suggested reading the book.
- Ben
Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death! And to those in the tombs, bestowing life!
Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!
Lets no start this foolishness all over again. She understands just fine. You lack understanding, of this I'm pretty confident.
-Jim
To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.
Garrison Keillor
And you illustrate my point well. The affects of policies is very different than the theology from which they come.
In this verse it is always those who have who shoulder the burdens of those who are in need. Knowing that this will be reciprocated. Suprluses covering deficits in community. To say it isn't the case in what Obama brings to the table is to completely overlook context. The verse assumes a "we." thus, Obama's theology likely mirrors the Ucc humanism "we." however, there is no we in America, there is us vs them. Thus, it doesn't translate well.There is more to the verse than a simplistic monetary see-saw. Implicit within the verse is the notion that these two groups are working together toward prosperity, shoulder to shoulder. Sorry but I don't see this being played out in what this President brings forward. It just isn't there.
You keep proving my point, and you keep bringing into focus how wrong and baseless your charge of a theology of "enslavement was.
- Ben
Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death! And to those in the tombs, bestowing life!
Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!
Sorry, Jim. I am speaking about a specific book, and a specific thing. Her post did not address those specifics. I know you like to think they did, but that doesn't make it the case. Likewise, regional anecdotes simply do not address wide-scale research. It just is what it is.
- Ben
Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death! And to those in the tombs, bestowing life!
Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!
Problem is that you posited the information as factual, rather than one man's opinion, and you gave no cite as to the source. And although it may in fact be factual, you really have not the wherewithal to know this for sure.
Many years ago I did a little research project out of curiosity. I was curious as to the cause and effect behind International Harvester's bankruptcy in 1981. I had read a book titles "A Corporate Tragedy" while at the same time I had access on a first name basis with many former IH employees, including engineering and high level management. Putting the two together revealed that many folks who were actually "there" lacked understanding of some of the things going on at higher levels, while the author of the book was unaware of some of the emotional constructs given the solid facts she presented in her book. You don't possess this level of sophistry nor discernment on this subject. Your not well enough informed to make this statement.
Perhaps, but you don't really know.
-Jim
To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.
Garrison Keillor
Ok, so he is simply a rube. A useful idiot, so to speak? Perhaps, you haven't actually made this point, rather convenient to say that people make your point as you think of them after the fact. "L'esprit de l'escalier"
Maybe so, excepting that your allusions to UCC theology are just that, you haven't adequately shown this. We are all just speculating here, you seem to be taking this far to seriously.
You can repeat this three times, yet still you lack the Ruby Slippers.
-Jim
To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.
Garrison Keillor
It confuses me why so many American friends dislike Obama? He hasnt been a bad president surely? The ecconomy isnt his fault. He did get Bin laden. Universal health care, well it works well here. Personaly cant think of a scriptural argument against it?
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You should follow the news more, Ian. You'll learn that he makes the devil himself look like an amateur. So now they want a guy who pretty much did the same in Taxachusettes. No, don't ask me to explain.
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It's really fascinating to me to hear comments from folks who are "outside looking in". I suppose we Americans look rather foolish to the rest of the world sometimes. And for good reason, I'm sure.
As for me, I take comments like Ian's and Hans' and accept them as a good reason to be introspective -- to take a fresh look at my preconceived thoughts and re-evaluate them.
Thanks, guys.
Wherever I am, God is, and all is well.Post Thanks / Like - 2 Thanks, 0 Laughing
Diane, I wasn't really serious. I disagree with the healthcare view of the GOP, but I've come to understand that it derives from a rejection of government control of personal lives. (I don't understand why the same principle doesn't seem to apply to gay marriage, but that's another story.)
But it is true, it is at least rather ironic how the GOP now has a candidate who introduced pretty much the same healthcare system in Massachusetts when he was governor.
At an even more serious level, in the CotN as much as in the USA, when the strings that unite become weaker, the result is not a pretty sight. Of course differences of opinion are in themselves healthy. Nobody but a lunatic can claim to be right in everything he/she believes. But the way we deal with the differences is not healthy.
"No scripture can mean that God is not love, or that his mercy is not over all his works" (John Wesley - Free Grace, 26)Post Thanks / Like - 3 Thanks, 0 Laughing
The question is, do we look at the entire picture. I'm not seeking to bash those looking in, but lets face it, our worlds society isn't balanced very well in terms of cost. So I have to wonder if we consider.
Why is it that the American health care system is the best in the world, as evidenced by heads of state and very wealthy people choosing to come here for care as opposed to their home countries? Our facilities and our compensation for medical professionals are the most costly. Our research benefits the rest of the world.
Why is it that breakthroughs in medicine, both in technology and in chemistry come mostly from America. We do maintain very costly research and development facilities, the rest of the world benefits.
We have been criticized for being the worlds police force, yet most if not all of europe would not enjoy freedom or self determination if not for our efforts and our current very high expenditures in the area of defense.
So as we consider these things, do we ask how expensive it would be to provide universal health care here, should we cut back on research, compensation and technology commensurate to bring us to "average."
How much could we save if we pulled back our defense efforts to protect our country alone, unless fully compensated by those whom we provide protection?
And for those who would criticize us for not providing this for our citizens. Are you willing to do with less, in order that our priorities could be to our own people rather than to the rest of the world?
I must admit that I do have a rather dim view of those who would criticize us from without, as they have benefited greatly from our largess. By most any measure, Americans take on much of the burdens of the world, I don't appreciate the criticism.
-Jim
To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.
Garrison Keillor
Jim, the health care discussion has nothing to do with the quality of American health care, it deals with the availability. So claiming that the quality is terrific is like kicking in an open door: nobody denies it.
But if I claim that a Bugatti Veyron is the best car in the world, that claim is merely academic if I can't afford one. And I can't. So I'm driving an old Mercedes and that's one heck of a lot better than not being able to drive any car at all.
But this thread is heading towards the CE forum.
"No scripture can mean that God is not love, or that his mercy is not over all his works" (John Wesley - Free Grace, 26)Post Thanks / Like - 3 Thanks, 0 Laughing
I know Americans who cant afford proper health care, meds, etc. While here in the UK its paid for through National Insurance and tax. This means poorer folks have same access to health care as the more better off. Jesus said we would always have the poor with us, so I guess He might think health care for all is a good idea?
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I'm not saying that this is necessarily a bad idea, in fact I have been a proponent of nationalized healthcare as opposed to Obamacare. My preference would be a pay as you go system with each person individually purchasing health insurance and making their own payment arrangements with the doctors. I believe this would lower the cost of health care here in the US, thus making it affordable for most, with the government offering assistance to the indigent. I believe that it would also afford us better primary care and that doctor's just might learn to actually be businessmen instead of highly paid and highly regulated functionaries.I know Americans who cant afford proper health care, meds, etc. While here in the UK its paid for through National Insurance and tax. This means poorer folks have same access to health care as the more better off. Jesus said we would always have the poor with us, so I guess He might think health care for all is a good idea?
But that wasn't the point of my post. My point is that we are presently 16 Trillion dollars in debt and it is getting worse. We have 1 Trillion of this out on presently underproducing student loans and we are in need of austerity measures in our government. We simply cannot afford to do more. My question is whether the countries who do provide universal care would mind picking up their own defense budgets, paying in full for any protection they receive through treaty agreements or otherwise with the US in order to help us afford this? My point is that most of the world does not have the bills and obligations which we have. Or to put it simply, "easy for you to say?"
-Jim
To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.
Garrison KeillorPost Thanks / Like - 1 Thanks, 0 Laughing
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