Brother Craig,
I'd say that your initial words were adequate. Let's, indeed, let Oliver speak for himself.
Friend,
Wes
Brother Craig,
I'd say that your initial words were adequate. Let's, indeed, let Oliver speak for himself.
Friend,
Wes
I was just thinking about how healthy this conversation is, and how it reminds me of what Naznet can be. People are disagreeing, but nobody is being disagreeable. When someone makes a claim others ask for clarification, examples, or biblical support. Nobody is name calling and the conversation isn't being taken down a ton of rabbit trails. People are saying things like, "that's your opinion, but my opinion is..." instead of, "you're just wrong and here's why."Originally Posted by Wes Smith
Post Thanks / Like - 7 Thanks, 0 LaughingMike Schutz, Ed DiSante, Wes Smith, Nate Pruitt, Jim Chabot, Billy Cox, Cynthia Prentice - "thanks" for this post
I think that this dynamic ebbs and flows. We will try hard to exercise respect and restraint sometimes and revert to disrespect and impulsiveness at other times. If most NazNettters are the 'glass half-full' optimists that they profess to be, then we wouldn't despair during those times when the community seems on the verge of all-out cannibalism.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
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Wes, I appreciate your post. Of course the situation differs from person to person. On a scale from 1 tot 10, with some I'm at 1 (hardly any understanding) and probably with nobody I am at 10 (I guess not even with myself). Most of the people will be somewhere in between.
You say that you mostly agree. Well, that means we're not at 1 but at a higher level, where I presume that we words I used mean the same to you.
"No scripture can mean that God is not love, or that his mercy is not over all his works" (John Wesley - Free Grace, 26)Post Thanks / Like - 1 Thanks, 0 Laughing
Craig,
I fail to see your "authority" or "extra sensory perception" here regarding what Oliver wrote. Let's give Oliver a chance to declare that his post was not connected to this thread.
He didn't just fall out of the sky or post without context. Being an effective communicator usually has something to do with context, don't you think?
And, I didn't say anything other than "it seems to me" which I think is language of the new kinder, gentler NazNet.
Save your preaching for Sundays! Ha!
Friend,
Wes
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Hans,
I'd like to change my mind and say that I find myself in agreement with nearly everything you said in this post.
"Everything" seems too much like the American Holiness Movement and I'm more of a "process" person. Give me a few more days to grow in understanding and I may find myself in full agreement.
Friend,
Wes
If it is, I'm happy to ride it with you.
Hopefully we can all write clearly and read carefully, since we don't have any non-verbal or visual clues to go by...
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There is always a Scriptural basis for ignoring the meaningless laws of a meaningless country if they contradict our King and his Kingdom. Always.
- Ben
Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death! And to those in the tombs, bestowing life!
Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!
You're right, they go directly against God's will. That is, they favor those who are of value, and of use to America. That is, we choose them because we think they are more valuable to America than to other people.
That is okay. That is what I expect a worldly nation to do. They have to.
That is not what the Church is called to support. That is what the Church is called to be against. How that opposition manifests itself might be a more important conversation.
Hauerwas is right, per usual.
- Ben
Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death! And to those in the tombs, bestowing life!
Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!
Lord, have mercy on us. This is so, so, so scary. Forgive us.
- Ben
Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death! And to those in the tombs, bestowing life!
Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!
Scary? I begin by stating that Ryan's view appears to me to lack Scriptural basis and appears to be contrary to Scripture. I believe that I did this in a charitable way, I didn't blurt out "you are wrong" or "this is scary" or anything of the kind. I then cited an example where personally I would consider myself to be rude and inconsiderate is I disrespected the Canadian people in this way. You see Countries are people Ben, they have territory which is similar to a person's home, it's where these people live. To run roughshod over their borders is, to me, akin to just walking into someones home.
I then re-iterated that my view is that Ryan's understanding is faulty, we have had discussions in the past and I believe he is well aware that we have a difference of opinion in this regard. I proposed should he wish to be charitable, he could offer something to show where his view originates. I'll freely admit that I have little interest in adopting his view, still I'm interested how he gets there, because I'm interested in Ryan as a person. Would I lose interest in him simply because we disagree? And so, while you are interrupting with your catcalls and hurled derision, I'm waiting for Ryan.
At the end I pointed out that I do agree with Dr. Porter in the area of compassion and that I've stated this on numerous occasions. I asked that I be acknowledged, and I pointed out that it would be uncharitable not to do so. Again, while you interrupt, I'll wait.
-Jim
To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.
Garrison Keillor
Are you beginning a new pattern here? This is the second time in recent memory where you have opened with a wrong categorization and stated it as though it were fact. I believe you have categorized our policy wrongly, Not sure what to do with that.
Sorry Ben, I don't read Hauerwas, I've read a bit about him and I've seen some of his quotes which to me appear quite vile.
-Jim
To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.
Garrison Keillor
Ben,
I do appreciate you zeal and enthusiasm re. this discussion. Help me understand your sentiments better.
Considering we are a nation on a financial precipice and subject to unprecidented dangers from Islam, drug gangs, business and technical terrorists, common and vicious criminals, etc., how is it that immigration restraints are "meaningless"?
And, am I reading you right that you consider the United States to be "meaningless"? My question is cloaked in my personal conviction that immigration laws are in place to create and sustain order for a VERY important piece of what makes the United States the "United" States as well as for a just and meaningFUL plan to strengthen our ability to help people in this world...long term. Just wondering if you are truly committed to your statement here? (Not, in general. Rather, specifically, in light of our discussion on this thread.)
Friend,
Wes
Wes, I think you ask Ben a good question asking for clarification. I don't want to take away from that and I am interested in what he will say, but I do find this part of your last post that lists "Islam" first among your "dangers" interesting in the context of a thread discussing Porter's article on loving the foreigner.
Fear of the other is still a big part of why we perpetuate the sin of not loving and seeing the other as ourselves.
This kind of fear along with so many other fears about the "foreigner" is really what keeps us from loving those we are called to love the way we should; I think this is what Dr Porter's article reminds us of.
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James,
I strongly agree...let's keep working at the respect and listening issue!
I intentionally listed "Islam" first. My personal opinion is that their plans and intents are at the heart of open borders and loving the foreigner concerns. Militant Islam has established a track record that is undeniable and impossible for me and people like me to turn our heads away from. Their intentions toward us are crystal clear and I want as few of them in our nation as possible. Those that make it in should come in through legal means and give our surveilance people the greatest odds of tracking them
What I think is vastly overlooked in a rush to love on the poor foreigners is the reality that dropping wise and varifiable immigration procedures and methodologies exposes us, all of us, our children, etc., to indescribable harm and danger...economically, physically, freedom-ly, and spiritually.
To be clear, I love militant Islamists, but I want to go visit them instead of having them come and visit me, especially the ones that just want to...drop in on us!
Friend,
Wes
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Thanks Wes-
I think we need to make an important distinction between "militant Islamists" and Islam. I say this in the the spirit of Christian love called to love the foreigner and does not want to let prejudiced fears of Islam keep us from breaking down barriers with those who practice Islam- particularly those who do so peacefully. I am not saying that you were prejudice, I just want to be careful with our language so that it doesn't perpetuate the fear of "Islam".
As to how the issue plays out politically and "open boarders" I have already said on the previous page that I am for a broader path of legislation when it comes to immigration. I don't think we are even close to being there yet where we could negotiate a policy of open boarders. Maybe some day we may be able to and I would hope for it as it reflects the Kingdom of God, but I am not pushing for this politically (other than encouraging the "political" aspects of loving one another as the gospel calls as I trust the gospel to break down barriers that Pharaoh and Caesar create and even the "best" governments aren't able to tear down. )
As for "working at the respect and listening issue". I can tell you that I am, as I hope all of us are. I appreciate your encouragement in this. I hope that it did not come from a place that interpreted anything I did as not coming from a heart of respect and a desire to listen. I honestly respect you and am trying to listen to what you are saying.
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One thing is evident: we sure have a multiplicity of ideas about the meaning and authority of scripture. Depends on whether we are talking about abortion, homosexuality, or illegal border crossings.
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No, I didn't. It is well known that when one applies for a visa, they go through a selection process. Those who are more productive are often selected first. It is pretty well-known that a successful doctor or professor will have a much easier and quicker time than an unskilled laborer. I haven't categorized anything incorrectly. We know a couple of families in St. Lucia who have been waiting 7 years now, and they keep waiting..... while some wealthier families they know got in after a year.
- Ben
Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death! And to those in the tombs, bestowing life!
Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!
As Christians we are not to recognize borders against those who are our brothers and sisters in Christ. A nation's - any nation's - laws are meaningless when it comes to the Body of Christ.
In that vein, who do we trust to care for us in the midst of this financial storm, or to protect us from radicals? The USA, their guns, bombs, etc? Or our God's love, compassion, and faithfulness?
My care as a Christian is not at all about who does or doesn't get into the United States of America or whether or not they are here legally. That means nothing to the Church, and it has no effect on the way we live or our ethics. No effect at all.
As far as the USA beingn meaningless, yes, I mean that. If the USA ceased to be a country, and another took over, God wouldn't bat an eyelash. Our existence as a nation is quite meaningless to the Church.
I've learned the more and more we get wrapped up in the nation, and letting it have meaning, the more and more we reinterpret Christian ethics to accommodate the nation's interests. And vice versa.
- Ben
Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death! And to those in the tombs, bestowing life!
Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!Post Thanks / Like - 2 Thanks, 0 Laughing
Pretty good example of what I was talking about the other day. As a foreigner, I could have written the latter paragraph as a general principle. As a foreigner, it would not be wise for me to write what you did in the former one. But as Americans among each other, it's a fair topic.
"No scripture can mean that God is not love, or that his mercy is not over all his works" (John Wesley - Free Grace, 26)Post Thanks / Like - 4 Thanks, 0 Laughing
I'll give you credit, you are sure of yourself, no doubt about it. You may actually believe this, still it isn't true. I've worked in the construction industry, in the auto and truck repair industry and I began my working life in a steel mill. For 36 years I've been hanging around with unskilled, marginally skilled and skilled mechanics in their trades. Many of them are immigrants a bunch are illegal aliens, there is a difference. I've worked with and befriended many folks from other countries over the years, and they have come from many different places. They tell me that what you have said here just isn't true, I'll take their word for it.
-Jim
To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.
Garrison Keillor
And I'll take the word of all of those whom I know who have been forced to come here illegally with no other option, all of those who are still waiting, and the reports which corroborate their story.
- Ben
Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death! And to those in the tombs, bestowing life!
Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!
This might be a good place for me to say that I think I have fairly and succinctly stated my position and to back away. After all, if a guy doesn't have anything more to say, why say it!!!
Friend,
Wes
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Of course you will. Since I know better, and since no one has been forthcoming with any arguments from Scripture. I'll remain satisfied with my take on this.
-Jim
To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.
Garrison Keillor
I don't think I've seen anyone here point to specific passages of Scripture, including you. I've seen plenty of people, including you, point to Scriptural principles and describe how they relate to the topic at hand.Of course you will. Since I know better, and since no one has been forthcoming with any arguments from Scripture. I'll remain satisfied with my take on this.
If you're looking for something different... perhaps you'd like to go first?
Last edited by Rich Schmidt; July 20th, 2012 at 07:49 AM. Reason: Typo
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I find it strange that "you know better" than the true experiences of others, based upon your own anecdotes. Lol, that's just funny.Of course you will. Since I know better, and since no one has been forthcoming with any arguments from Scripture. I'll remain satisfied with my take on this.
- Ben
Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death! And to those in the tombs, bestowing life!
Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!
Seriously Ben, are you disconnected from reality? Your statements on this are simply not true. You point to a couple of families you know of in St. Lucia, while I have worked with and have been friends with literally hundreds of folks who are not wealthy, they are not educated, yet they came here legally just the same, and still they come. And I've known them well enough to have heard their stories, sure it wasn't easy for them, they had to scrimp and save for money for passage, they had to work hard, they had to study, they needed friends and relatives to help them. But they are here, they are legal, and they have been welcomed here. Exactly as they would have been welcomed in Israel, their wish was to come, be a part, and assimilate into our culture.
So you have two anecdotes and I've got hundreds, or you have the true experiences of two others while I cite the true experience of hundreds. Your playing language games here Ben.
You are also working in the restaurant/bar business, there are no shortage of illegals there. My brother is the Executive Chef for the faculty club at Brown University, he tells me that they have quite a few illegals working there, yet very few immigrants, he tells me that he isn't aware of any who attempted to come here legally before just showing up.
I would suggest that you need to broaden your experience.
-Jim
To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.
Garrison Keillor
I didn't just point to a couple. I only alerted you to a couple. Sorry, Jim. You seem to think you know everything. Good luck with that.
- Ben
Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death! And to those in the tombs, bestowing life!
Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!
So it looks like Ben & Jim know different people with different experiences and different takes on the issue. I don't think any of us should be surprised by this. Two sides to every story, and all that. As long as we understand that neither side has 100% of the truth and that both sides see part of it, we can all get along and learn from both. Right?
I have very limited experiences with first-generation immigrants, documented or otherwise. I'm inclined to give more respect to those who worked hard to play by the rules than those who haven't. But I also understand (from the stories of the pastors I know who are here from other countries) that our immigration officials sometimes make things unnecessarily difficult for those wanting to come work here. I'd love to see our immigration process simplified and streamlined, or whatever needs to happen to make it easier for people to come, work, and become citizens. That would have to include some better way of keeping track of our guests, so they don't overstay their visas and melt into the mass of the undocumented.
For example, it seems silly to me that some should be kept waiting for years and years. I obviously don't know the story behind Ben's friends in St. Lucia, but I think we've all heard similar stories.
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You'd say that is a reasonable approach. Beyond the pope, I don't think any of us mere mortals can claim infallibility.
"No scripture can mean that God is not love, or that his mercy is not over all his works" (John Wesley - Free Grace, 26)
What I am about to say is purely anecdotal observation and may not be born out by any systematic research, if there ever is any. But the Canadians I know freely cross over from Canada, yet Mexicans have to sneak in from Mexico. This leads me to think that maybe there is a colour/language issue involved. Many of the immoral laws that have recently been enacted, like the one in Alabama, target people of colour and not their white counter parts.
As an aside, I had a DS tell me that the CotN will give District Licenses to undocumented aliens and have done so.
You can be right or you can be in relationship
The difference in social class is far more pronounced between Mexicans and Americans than between Canadians and Americans.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
- C.S. LewisPost Thanks / Like - 1 Thanks, 0 Laughing
That is true. I think I may have known fairly well to do Mexicans who freely cross the boarder. Think I was related to one at one point. Maybe I should ask around my new neighbourhood, predominantly Mexican nationals
You can be right or you can be in relationship
At the 2009 General Assembly a resolution was considered that would require all Nazarene congregations to 'uphold the laws' of their respective lands...a not so veiled attempt to make undocumented people (illegals) less welcome in the Church of the Nazarene.
I wager that the resolution will be back in 2013.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
- C.S. Lewis
No need to get snippy Ben, it's not like I've referred to your statements as "hogwash" or anything like that. Perhaps you could tell me something about the folks you know who have come here legally, how long they had to wait or whatever difficulties they may have faced.
I can tell you that my first Pastor was a former missionary to Vietnam, after his return to the States he and our church assisted many folks coming from Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos and Thailand. I remember we would take up collections, we would assist with housing, finding jobs etc... I still remember Sok Hout, he was a delightful older Cambodian gentleman, he was the patron of the Cambodian community in our church, I can remember sitting with him talking about his country and culture, about his hopes for himself and his fellow countryman here. They all came here legally, it was difficult yet they were thankful for a better life.
My mom worked at Fernandes Supermarket, in it's heyday Joe Fernandes owned 67 markets, at least half of his workforce were Portuguese immigrants he would bring over from the old country. many of these folks who came here legally are still living around here today. Back in my days on the Planning Board, I used to talk with Joe quite often, he was also a member of our local Lions club, we used to have a couple of cookouts a year at his house. Same stories I heard from him, it wasn't easy for the folks who came here, he helped them by providing jobs and encouraging those here to sponsor and look out for those coming. Not easy, but no complaints.
I've mentioned a few times about the two families that our church sponsored from Liberia. Sure it cost us some money for attorney fees, I'm guessing that there was additional difficulty because the two men came here illegally. But we got through it, they are all here legally now. Sadly one of the men left his wife soon after she came here with the children, apparently he had a mistress he would visit in the Liberian community in Philadelphia. But you know what, she was not left bereft and stranded here without resource. Our country gives her assistance and she lives in subsidized housing. I don't think that we are treating Sondo, Sandra and Marcia badly at all. We worked within the system, we found that it works.
I'll be singing tomorrow night at First Church in Providence, RI, as part of their 125th anniversary celebration. As you may be aware, the AHM folks from this area were very active in sending missionaries to Cape Verde. Providence church's Pastor and my friend Rev. Silas Almeida hails from Cape Verde, he came here with eleven brothers and sisters, one of his sisters is married to Manny Silva. As you may know Manny's dad pastored for many years in Cape Verde before coming here and pastoring in Rumford, RI. Silas dad was one of our associate pastor's at my previous church. The present associate pastor there is Rev. Ramiro Monteiro, our church sponsored him when he came here from Cape Verde a few years back. There are many that I could list from Cape Verde, I am honored that they would befriend me, such wonderful people. Never have I heard a complaint regarding immigration.
Most all of the years I have been in business I have been friends with and have used concrete forms contractors from the Polish community. My good friend Joe who passed away nine years now was born in the old country. Most of his workers including my present "form guy" Steve MacZuga were from the old country. Some would come on temporary visas then return home, I remember Yanik and Zbigniev would come on alternate years, others like Stevie decided to stay. I can remember Joe taking days to visit the embassy to make sure his people were ok and had their papers in order. Again no complaints.
I'm not saying that I know everything, surely you cannot expect me to know of things you haven't shared. So tell me of those you know who have come here legally. Tell me their stories.
Another thing I've noticed in our conversation, that perhaps we have missed between the tossing of barbs. The principle you point to appears to be that of fairness, to which I can agree with. While at the same time I can't help but noticing in the verses Dr. Porter offered the same sentiment arose, again no problem. How do we then define fairness? Going back to Ancient Israel which is where 'm drawing my comparison and Dr. Porter appears to be as well. How was fairness contemplated there? Just quickly without resorting to "proof texting" you, I'm thinking that it was "fair" that Israelites could not charge usury against a fellow Israelite, yet to a foreigner it was ok. I'm thinking that it was "fair" to require foreigners to adopt the faith, yet they were confined to the court of the gentiles. I haven't really "dug in" yet, but I'm thinking there is more. We do need to contemplate "fairness" in light of God's demonstration of such, do we not?
-Jim
To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.
Garrison KeillorPost Thanks / Like - 1 Thanks, 0 Laughing
You are correct Paul, I googled "mexicans travelling to the US" and "canadians travelling to the US" and found that there are indeed different rules. It appears that Mexican's require a visa always to enter and must remain within a certain number of miles from the border unless they also possess a travel permit. The visa is $131 while the permit is $6.
I'm guessing we won't agree, but I'm not ready to say the motivation is racial. Canadians are on the whole much less dangerous than Mexicans. Although I did witness the Border Patrol chasing down and catching some Canadian drug runners a couple of winters back. Gotta admit "Canadian drug runners" just doesn't sound plausible though.
I've hung out with Border Patrol guys from time to time, they all tell me the same thing, they are real glad to be on the Canadian Border. One fellow told me "up here we are required to carry guns, down south we have to use our guns!" he had recently been transferred "up."
So regardless of a possible appearance of racism, we must assess risks appropriately. If those crossing our southern border pose a greater risk, then we need different rules for them. It's not fair to hassle everyone simply in the interest of fairness.
As an aside, I sure wouldn't expect a DS or a local congregation to check immigration status on anyone. We treat everyone the same. What I would hope is that any and every congregation would rise to the challenge of assisting anyone interested in pursuing legal status. This is true compassion.
-Jim
To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.
Garrison Keillor
Many years ago I was in a service where the speaker was talking about a ministry he was a part of in California. At one point, he mentioned that the organization would help newly arrived immigrants get access to whatever social services existed to serve them, and I heard someone gasp as though he had just dropped the F-bomb.
It was a surreal moment, if not at all surprising.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
- C.S. LewisPost Thanks / Like - 2 Thanks, 0 Laughing
It's a touchy subject, for sure it isn't ok for someone to just show up here thinking that everything's free in America. While at the same time things happen. In my friend Sondo's case she came here and pretty quick, her cheating husband abandons her. What are we supposed to do? Tell her to go home? No of course not, we need to help her.
I'll admit that it would be nice to send her husband back to hang out with his good buddy Charles Taylor. Oops, did I say that out loud?
-Jim
To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.
Garrison Keillor
I hope that doesn't get raised or at least I would hope it would not be adopted. I agree completely with Dr. Porter that we need to show love and charity to all immigrants (as a church and as individuals). I'm not sure I agree completely with his ideas on immigration law reform (though I suppose I might ... he didn't detail those ideas).
However, one thing he is saying that I agree with 100% is that the day is coming soon (if it is not already here) when we Americans will have to choose between what is legal and what is moral. For many nations, this is already the obvious reality. In that light, I can't overstate the foolishness of such a resolution.
Last edited by Joseph Ellis; July 20th, 2012 at 12:50 PM. Reason: grammar
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Yeah, given the situation of many of our Nazarene brothers and sisters in other countries around the world, some of which live in nations that actively persecute Christians, I can't see the General Assembly ever adopting such a resolution.
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