I thought maybe it got moved to current events, but no dice. What up with that?
I thought maybe it got moved to current events, but no dice. What up with that?
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
- C.S. Lewis
It was moved to Current Events, and then Ryan, who started the thread, killed it.
While I hesitate to speak for Ryan, I do know that he did not want the thread to go where most threads in that forum go.
"Fully embracing the Gospel, fully engaging the world"Post Thanks / Like - 3 Thanks, 0 Laughing
Yeah, I deleted my initial post, which, on this forum, deletes the whole thread. It wasn't and isn't a current event. It didn't belong there.
By the way, I got the NCM magazine on immigration yesterday. It was very well done.
...just my $.02.
Understand that.Originally Posted by Ryan Scott
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
- C.S. Lewis
My church and the neighbor Nazarene church combine for a monthly senior's luncheon. I visited (I'm too young to be a full member!) yesterday's lunch.
The special speaker was one of my members who has PhD in Christian Ed. and is a professor and associate dean at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. He is also very Republican. He spent a good part of his time sharing from, and promoting, the current NCM edition! It was an excellent presentation. (Part of which I'm sure surprised and stretched some of the conservative seniors.)
Wilson
"But by the grace of God I am what I am." (1 Cor. 15:10)Post Thanks / Like - 2 Thanks, 0 Laughing
It wasn't and isn't a current event, but people started treating it as one and then you get the usual political **** that we thankfully limit to the CE forum, in order for it to intoxicate the rest of the forums.
"No scripture can mean that God is not love, or that his mercy is not over all his works" (John Wesley - Free Grace, 26)
I think that's the first time I've seen "intoxicate" used quite that way. Another word that might have fit would be "inoculate", but that wouldn't have gotten our attention. Stateside Nazarenes don't really know how to use the word "intoxicate".
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I may have gotten it wrong, Dennis. The link in my mind was that "toxic" is similar to "poisonous", and I somehow like "intoxicate" better than "poison" (as a verb), though I did understand the word is usually connected to alcohol abuse.
"No scripture can mean that God is not love, or that his mercy is not over all his works" (John Wesley - Free Grace, 26)Post Thanks / Like - 0 Thanks, 1 LaughingDennis M. Scott - thanks for this funny post
You don't very often get words wrong: in fact, I sometimes learn from you. Besides, I don't know either of those words in Dutch. You have such an endearing way: no wonder we love you!
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Of course it was a current event, it was a political piece, with just a touch of theological window dressing.
I was actually looking forward to the possible promised theological debate, I believe that Dr. Porter's take was very shallow, I believe that a deeper look into the subject reveals a different outcome.
-Jim
To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.
Garrison Keillor
I'm sorry Dennis, but I just can't stand the narrow mindedness any longer. It's getting too much. I'm suffocating in this toxic mess.
"No scripture can mean that God is not love, or that his mercy is not over all his works" (John Wesley - Free Grace, 26)
You write better in a 2nd language than I do in my native tongue. You have a long way to go to catch up to my mistakes. Plus, we understood and in my case agree.
It is not enough to be right, you have to be like Jesus.
The word you wanted was probably 'taint'.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
- C.S. Lewis
I have observed that one's agreement with the point of view being advanced has substantial bearing on whether one sees it as a political piece with theological window dressing, or as a theological piece that some want to drag into the political mud.
For example, when Warrick sent out a letter about opposition to gay marriage shortly before an American general election (2008 I think), it was clearly a political message. BUT I would be a hyprocrite if I didn't apply the same logic to Porter's article similarly weighing in on a topic with political dimensions shortly before an American general election. Just because I happen to agree with Porter's point of view doesn't mean that I'm going to turn a blind eye to the unaviodably political nature of the piece.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
- C.S. LewisPost Thanks / Like - 1 Thanks, 0 LaughingRich Schmidt - "thanks" for this post
I also do not think the Dr Porter post by Ryan belonged in the CE forum either. I was hoping to gain from a discussion about the topic it raised. I was sorry to see it gone when I checked back after being off NazNet for a day. It was leaning political, but I'd hoped it would lean back to the topic as a biblical and theological discussion. I see it as a discussion about God's Kingdom here and now, and if the sovereign border issue is relevant to Dr Porter's topic, then also about the Kingdom to come. And, I was hoping we'd have this discussion in the light of Dr Porters article specifically since he is our general, rather than simply introduce it ("how to love immigrants"?) as a topic that is interesting and important in its own right. Now the article is published I suppose it will be vetted somewhere (other than NazNet).
I am in favor of bringing the Bible, theology and anthropology to the table on issues where the application in the real world is legislative, judicial and ultimately political. The impulse to surgically remove the political aspects of a question so that an untainted theological discussion can emerge is admirable...but 100% unrealistic in this sort of forum. It was Ryan's thread to euthanize, but this one is mine.
I suppose it's possible to have a purely theological discussion with no thought toward how it applies in society, but at some point it will have political implications. I don't understand why that eludes some people.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
- C.S. LewisPost Thanks / Like - 2 Thanks, 0 Laughing
There is a fundamental difference in a theological discussion with practical (political) application and a political discussion with theological "application".
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Fine, but it's naive to think that one can just flip a switch and banish the political elements of a topic.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
- C.S. Lewis
If Jerry Porter had a new message with political overtones and "timed" it, perhaps some could cry "foul", but this article is vintage JP, and one of the same mantles that has produced negative votes. His "timing" on this concern has been consistent from before his election. It's current, pertinent, unpopular and Christlike: the kind of thing we might want of a GS.
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Dr. Porter is not coming new to the perspective presented here. He has preached it many times, talked about it in conversations with large groups and with me personally. In fact, I remember him "chastising" me about nomenclature years ago.
Speaking from your heart and from scripture about issues you believe are important, especially when the topic is currently a matter of intense conversation, even though you know it will not be universally popular - that sounds like leadership to me.
"Fully embracing the Gospel, fully engaging the world"Post Thanks / Like - 9 Thanks, 0 Laughing
To be clear, Im not crying foul, but I understand why some others would.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
- C.S. LewisPost Thanks / Like - 1 Thanks, 0 Laughing
I would defend Jerry's right to have his opinion/thoughts on this subject with my life and I'm glad that he is where he is and keeps us thinking about the personal aspects of the subject.
The controversial side of this issue revolves around the complication of people illegally coming into the country. If I ignore the legal side of this particular, specific subject, I'm pretty obligated to ignore the legal aspects of other issues.
Friend,
Wes
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Not so sure. I don't recall the specifics of Warrick's piece, yet I believe that I would have agreed with him and with you. From what you describe his input was probably political in nature, and I'm thinking that theologically I would have agreed with him. The same goes for some of our manual statements, we believe a certain way and we are called to act politically as well. To me this seems natural as we live out our faith, just the same as when we disagree theologically, we would disagree politically as well.
I do think you are right, the nature of Dr. Porter's piece is political. Doesn't make it a problem for me, it is what it is. He surely has the right to speak his mind and as one of our leaders he should do so. Doesn't mean that we have to agree with him, nor he with me.
-Jim
To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.
Garrison Keillor
Same here, surely there has been no foul. It's just a disagreement, not a big deal. Not even a total disagreement at that.
-Jim
To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.
Garrison Keillor
Acts 5:29 - But Peter and the apostles answered, ‘We must obey God rather than any human authority.
- Ben
Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death! And to those in the tombs, bestowing life!
Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας! καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι, ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!Post Thanks / Like - 1 Thanks, 0 Laughing
Is it possible to provide the link to JP's article even though the thread had been removed- sounds like I may have missed something I might want to read.
Thanks
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Billy, I guess I do not grasp what 'Current Events' forum is about, so my bad. I engage NazNet by the postings, not primarily by the forums (altho I get the parameters for a line of discussion, I find those organic in most postings, so I do not ignore the meaning of the forums) , so its not my ken to see it one way or another, really. Ryan may one day choose to tell us why he felt it did not belong there, and that was his reason for taking it down, so it must mean *something*. >bleagh< oh well.
I presume this is an article from the latest print edition of the magazine. The online version lags behind. The only way to be an informed participant in a discussion about the edition that is currently showing up in people's mailboxes is to have access to the print edition.
I know that can be annoying but seems fair for a magazine that depends on subscribers rather than advertisers for its existence. Here's a link to subscribe:
http://www.ncnnews.com/nphweb/html/nph/subscription.jsp
Marsha
(not even thinking about quitting NazNet, not interested in being part of the mudslinging, seeing the mudslinging as an unpleasant offshoot of what is at its core a pleasant place to be, patiently waiting for things to settle down so we can eventually get back to talking about the article. Since not everyone's magazine arrives at the same time, I guess this unpleasant digression gives the rest of us time to catch up on our reading, maybe even time for the article to make it to the online edition)
"Transformation comes more from pursuing profound questionsblog: www.marshalyn.blogspot.com
than seeking practical answers."
-- Peter Block in The Answer to How Is Yes
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Yes, this was/is the article under discussion when Ryan decided to end it. Not really a big deal, some of us agree with Dr. Porter's theology on this, others disagree and believe that he got it wrong. Some here believe that this was/is a theological piece while others believe that it was/is primarily political.
Just one other thing, I believe that we are all in agreement regarding the obligation to compassion, this isn't at issue although some point to it as if it were.
-Jim
To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.
Garrison KeillorPost Thanks / Like - 1 Thanks, 0 Laughing
Oops, my bad. I was wrong about it not being online yet. Glad you found it, and thanks for the link.
I could delete my post now but it was also my way of commenting on the mudslinging as an aside and expressing once again my love for NazNet in spite of it all without joining the fray.
"Transformation comes more from pursuing profound questionsblog: www.marshalyn.blogspot.com
than seeking practical answers."
-- Peter Block in The Answer to How Is Yes
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I guess I'm not sure how this could be seen as Dr. Porter making an election year political statement when both Republicans and Democrats keep bending over backwards to assure everyone they want to find a way for undocumented workers to stay in the country. The Tea Party isn't up for election. What party platform is he supposed to be endorsing here - the Republican dream act or the President's blueprint for immigration reform?
When the General Superintendents came out with a statement on homosexuality, nobody accused them of political pandering. They were making a clear stand on a social issue. I don't believe Dr. Porter is speaking for the whole BoGS, or even in his role as a GS, but why is this not considered a social issue?
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Not necessarily an election year statement, excepting that it is an election year. Still it is a political statement, as would be any social issue.
-Jim
To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.
Garrison Keillor
I think we all can agree that Pentecost is of utmost importance to the church and to us as Christians. What many do not know is that generosity to the "alien" is intrinsic to Pentecost...Pentecost being the Greek word for the Feast of Shavuot. I do not think it is a coincidence that the Holy Spirit was given on the day that was set aside for all of Israel to minister to the poor and the alien. If we call ourselves Holiness people we cannot separate this intrinsic message from Pentecost. Has it been an emphasized part of Pentecost within our experiences...probably not...but the fact that we have been ignorant of the cultural significance of that day and what it stood for does not remove the symbolic importance of that day being chosen for the birth of the church. We can't embrace the symbolism of Jesus as the Passover Lamb (correlating with the Passover Holiday), and the Firstfruit of the Resurrection (correlating with the First Fruit Holiday) without also embracing the ministry to the poor and alien that occurred on Pentecost.
I think it should also be noted that Dr. Porter experienced first hand what it was to live as an alien in another country. I remember the month his family ate peanut butter and used that money to give to others. Yes, his documents were in order, but the Bible does not distinguish between the alien who is documented or undocumented. We are told to follow Jesus and Jesus used teachable moments to teach. I see the timing of Dr. Porter's article as making use of a teachable moment...a moment when this topic is on the minds of people. I was blessed to live in the land that sheltered Abraham and his descendants as well as Jesus when fleeing from Herod. I bless God for every kindness shown to me by the native people of that land.These symbols and their meaning form the background to the events of the Pentecost on which God sent his Spirit. Following the ceremony of offerings, the Jewish people spent the afternoon and evening in a great festive meal, to which they were to invite the poor. This was both to rejoice in the renewed fellowship with God and to keep God's commandment to provide for the poor. Since true thanksgiving was demonstrated by a generous spirit toward those in need, God commanded the Israelites, "When you reap the harvest of your land, do not reap to the very edges of your field or gather the gleanings of your harvest. Leave them for the poor and the alien" ( Lev. 23:22; see also Lev. 19:9-10 ). http://followtherabbi.com/guide/deta...-of-the-spirit
Cynthia
*It should be noted that Passover, Feast of Unleavened Bread and Feast of First Fruits usually do not occur as a three day-in-a row occurrence. But on the year Jesus was crucified they came back to back. Jesus gave up his spirit at the time of the death of the national Passover lamb, the daily temple sacrifice that occurred on Passover. When all of Israel was planting a symbolic grain of wheat into the ground for the Feast of Unleavened Bread, Jesus was being "planted" in the tomb. On the day all of Israel celebrated the Feast of First Fruits...Jesus was raised from the dead as the first fruit of the Resurrection.
The very next national holiday was the Feast of Shavuot, Pentecost, the day God moved his "home" from the Temple made of stone...to the temple of the heart of flesh...the Believer...literally with symbolic fire coming down on them like at the dedication of the Temple. If God spoke through the symbolism of the other holidays we cannot divorce the symbolism of ministry to the poor and alien from the birth of the church.
"I'll give you a full life in the emptiest of places...You'll use the old rubble of past lives to build anew... You'll be known as those who can fix anything, restore old ruins, rebuild and renovate, make the community livable again." Isaiah 58:11-12 (THE MESSAGE)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmN6qvJe4eU new for 2013Post Thanks / Like - 5 Thanks, 0 Laughing
There seems to be two streams of thought here.
1. Those who presume that Porter's intent and timing was political with a veneer of theology.
2. Those who give Porter the benefit of the doubt on intent/timing, but acknowledge that the article will be perceived as having a clear political subtext...regardless of his intent.
I consider myself to be in that latter group and I will be quite ashamed if those in the other group get my thread shut down.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
- C.S. LewisPost Thanks / Like - 1 Thanks, 0 Laughing
Cynthia, while we knew some other Jewish holiday connections to significant days, don't think we heard re this Pentecost/alien-poor connection. Love the way you bring out the historical connections from time to time!
Life beats down and crushes the soul and art reminds you that you have one.
~ Stella Adler ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
It takes a great deal of maturity to accept that trying to eliminate all risk eliminates life.
~ Susan Lapin ~Post Thanks / Like - 1 Thanks, 0 Laughing
Yeah, before I get verbally jumped, I'm not saying there are *only* two streams of thought, just two that I found interesting enough to comment on.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us wthout end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
- C.S. Lewis
I have never encountered anything shallow from the man, whether it is his message or his lifestyle (which is a reflection of his message). More than anyone else that I have ever met, Dr. Jerry Porter displays to me what it means to live life as a Spirit-filled and -empowered Christ-follower. If only more of us (myself included) were more like him!
Rob Bell, Love WinsSo when the gospel is diminished to a question of whether or not a person will “get into heaven,” that reduces the good news to a ticket, a way to get past the bouncer and into the club. The good news is better than that.Post Thanks / Like - 7 Thanks, 0 Laughing
His take on this as reflected in his recent article is shallow, there is no need for character reference. I'm not doubting that he is a nice man, lets not cast aspersions.
-Jim
To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.
Garrison Keillor
I guess that I am shallow, then, because his "shallow" take made me think about the way I label and treat others. If being "shallow" makes me more compassionate, then I guess I am ok with shallow.
Rob Bell, Love WinsSo when the gospel is diminished to a question of whether or not a person will “get into heaven,” that reduces the good news to a ticket, a way to get past the bouncer and into the club. The good news is better than that.
I'm not sure how anyone could call his position shallow. He had (as I counted it) 10 biblical quotations. The heart of his argument is that there is a difference between illegal and immoral and there are laws that are immoral and are to be ignored by Christians. This is anything but a shallow argument. He certainly could have fleshed it out more, but it is not shallow.
I couldn't agree more with the following line:
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