A friend of mine that I see only on Facebook these days wanted to officiate at his daughter's wedding. He professes to be a Christian, so he got one of those online ordinations and was empowered by the State of Ohio to solemnize marriages. He said he did not take the situation lightly, and prayed about it. I have my opinion on it, but I'd like to hear yours.
I am the Lone Locust of the Apocalypse! Think of me when you look to the night sky!
I'm so glad he prayed about it, and ultimately ordination signifies the approval of God, but not just God alone... I greatly look forward to ordination (next District Assembly, Lord willing) as I will be welcomed fully into the work of the Church by the Church. Anything less seems to only self-appease, and denies the nature of the collective whole of Scripture found in the language of the Body affirming in faith. I suppose in this instance it fulfills the requirement to do what he wants, but the first half of this sentence really seems to sum up my apprehension on the whole.
Seeking to participate in the recreation of that which was called "good" and is being renewed. natepruitt.com
Well, the only reason he did it was to officiate at the wedding.
I am the Lone Locust of the Apocalypse! Think of me when you look to the night sky!
Yeah, that's sort of the main issue I have- it's almost like putting in for a "temporary ordination" as though being ordained isn't an entry into a lifelong commitment to servant leadership.Originally Posted by Greg Farra
However, for the purpose stated I can see why this "temporary" matter is of utmost significance and that's maybe for me one thing I can't fully get into without breaking down my views of marriage as covenant and (traditional) sacrament. Of all sacraments that the Protestants have not accepted, Christ as bridegroom seems to be just one reason to heavily consider marriage as one (for a grotesque over-simplification). I do believe that ordination and sacrament should go hand in hand. To this extent I have never served Holy Communion without supervision of an Elder and only after seeking approval beforehand. However, I fear I came across as lacking grace, and I should express that my earnest hope would be that the entire ceremony would be edifying for all involved and a true blessing.
Last edited by Nate Pruitt; July 16th, 2012 at 05:35 PM. Reason: Forgot about how verb tenses work.
Seeking to participate in the recreation of that which was called "good" and is being renewed. natepruitt.com
I think its more a semantic issue. The online groups have to call it ordination to make sure it complies with requirements in all states. All it really is, is a piece of paper that makes someone eligible to officiate a wedding - there's no religious connotation at all.
My concern is more about the couple - if they are Christian and want a Christian wedding, a congregation and some officiant recognized to speak for both that congregation and for God, should be a part of the ceremony.
In Colorado, there's no clergy requirement at all - anyone can officiate any wedding - there's really no need for an officiant at all - just a bride, groom, and witness.
...just my $.02.
That would take care of the problem. This guy just wants to do weddings, but I have a problem with instant ordination. They don't know you or have any idea if you have a calling. Just send some money, and you're in. The guy is perverting the ordination process, and that's our job!
I am the Lone Locust of the Apocalypse! Think of me when you look to the night sky!
Same in California.
Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth. 1 John 3:18
There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. 1 John 4:18a
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The Manual has an article on membership that specifies that anyone who engages ordination outside of the Church of the Nazarene seizes to be a member of the denomination.
112.1. Laypersons. When a lay member of a local church
has accepted membership, license to preach, or ordination
from any other religious organizations, or is engaging in in-
dependent church or missionary work, his or her member-
ship in the local church shall, because of that fact, immedi-
ately cease, except in case that person shall secure the
annual written approval of the local church board of the
church in which said membership is held, and the annual
written approval of the District Advisory Board of the dis-
trict in which that church is located.
The guy is not Nazarene, and I'm not sure he's still in his denomination.
I am the Lone Locust of the Apocalypse! Think of me when you look to the night sky!
Greg,
I know a gentleman that took it upon himself to perform a wedding outside of denominational ordination and I can't say it was done with a great deal of thought or consideration. There was simply no accountability and no formal training involved whatsoever. It seems to serve people who, for the most part, have no business getting married in the first place. Unfortunately, a member of our family recently did just that (got married without the blessing of parents and pastor). The minister performing the ceremony has no credibility in my view and no business standing before God and performing what many of us would consider a "sacrament."
Online ordinations aren't worth the paper and print. Not a good day for me to comment on this! I'm probably blowing off a bit of steam.
I was going to ask, Greg, has he sought you for some level of training and insight into what he is about to undertake?
Seeking to participate in the recreation of that which was called "good" and is being renewed. natepruitt.com
No, none at all. He just did his daughter's wedding and is doing another relative's. He did not seek advice from anyone before doing this, and our Facebook interchange led me to drop him. The best move? I don't know, but he is rather angry because I challenged him on getting ordained without any call or accountability. We were not close friends, and have not seen each other in years. He has always played by his own rules.
I am the Lone Locust of the Apocalypse! Think of me when you look to the night sky!
Bob,
I agree. He told me he is not a pastor, that he is just a minister, as we all are, whatever that means. He wants to do this one thing, but I told him it was offensive to ordained clergy who have done it the right way (years of preparation) and ministered to the dying, doing the hard work of pastoring for him to accept an ordination with no accountabuility, an ordination he purchased for a few bucks.
I am the Lone Locust of the Apocalypse! Think of me when you look to the night sky!
I wished he would have just appplied to be a Notary Public, which would have given him the authority to "officiate" a wedding. At least, thats the law in South Carolina.
Theologically can we really consider this "empowerment" a real ordination? Sure (S)he can have the power to officiate at weddings, but civil celebrants do this also. But what about the laying on of hands in the Apostolic tradition? If this doesn't happen can a person be truly ordained irrespective of what it might say on any piece of paper?
So yes Bob, I agree that the person has no business standing before God administering a sacrament..... indeed it would seem to be a very dangerous thing to do! Remember Saul offering the sacrifice out of expediency when he wasn't authorised to do so! Different age I know, but the principle remains the same.
Had to deal with that in a previous church. A member sent away for a $25.00 ordination so he could perform his brothers wedding ceremony. Said he had never heard of paragraph 112.1 until I read it to him.
Loving God . . . Loving others.
Well, I never ... ! Had no idea ... have heard something re a ship's captain, not in any particular jurisdiction (while at sea), but had not heard such things re various states. Wonder how many others are like that!? Seems strange. {Later} So, we went googling ... did not realize things varied that much from state to state. Found a list that seemed to indicate that some only require "ordination" {[if not allowed by virtue of being a judge, elected official, notary public~~!was one for years, ha!]}, while some others specify that they must be ordained by/"in good standing with" organizations chartered within the state (which would seem to exclude by-mail "ordinations" in those locations).
Funny how some of the "strictest/pickiest" are neighbors/up north ~~ Minnesota, Wisconsin & Michigan, along with (further east, but up north) New York had some of the lengthiest/most detailed specs regarding who may perform marriages.
Interesting . . . .
Lastly, if I recall correctly, seems TN and AZ had the shortest note re whom, which could include just about any self-appointed person (as it says for Tennessee ~~ unusual language, compared to how some states worded it):
" . . . More than eighteen (18) years of age, having the care of souls..."The site, tho', seems to be one of those mail-order ordination sites, nevertheless, since several states would seem accepting of such a self-appointed status:
http://openordination.org/state_faq.php
Life beats down and crushes the soul and art reminds you that you have one.
~ Stella Adler ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
It takes a great deal of maturity to accept that trying to eliminate all risk eliminates life.
~ Susan Lapin ~
but the crucial question remains: can he get a clergy discount?
In Alaska anyone can go to some office and register to perform a wedding- no ordination required. My brother recently officiated at very brief ceremony for his son and now-daughter-in-law. There was nothing particularly religious or Christian about it (except my brother, so I was hoping he would introduce something about Christian commitment/covenant, if even just his, but he did not). The entire service, including processional and recessional, couldn't have lasted 10 minutes. It seemed that most couldn't wait for the reception, complete with DJ and dance floor, photo booth, and $70 per plate dinner. Most, that is, except the wedding party; they needed about 90 minutes for photos after the "ceremony".
All this for a couple who has been living together for the past 2 years.
My "daughter" and her husband wanted the music leader of his church to perform the ceremony (Nicole did not care for the minister there). The minister would not sign the paperwork required by that denomination that would allow the music leader to perform the ceremony. So he too got an on-line "permit". He did a beautiful, meaningful, Christ centered ceremony.
Alisa
Then ordination and church authority means nothing. It becomes something that you buy. We used to call theem 'indulgences'.
I am the Lone Locust of the Apocalypse! Think of me when you look to the night sky!
In that denomination, ordination was not a requirement for performing weddings (my understanding anyway - which is why it only required the senior pastor to authorize a staff member). Neither the music leader or the couple viewed it as defying "church authority" as much as defying a minister who may have outlived his calling. They no longer attend that church/denomination but are back at our church enthusiastically serving there in large part because of that minister and his non biblical preaching.
Alisa
In that denomination, ordination was not a requirement for performing weddings (my understanding anyway - which is why it only required the senior pastor to authorize a staff member). Neither the music leader or the couple viewed it as defying "church authority" as much as defying a minister who may have outlived his calling. They no longer attend that church/denomination but are back at our church enthusiastically serving there in large part because of that minister and his non biblical preaching.
Alisa
That is still a circumvention of the pastoral and church authority. Getting an 'online ordination'. If someone wants to perform pastoral duties, then they need to go through proper channels, not some internet ordination mill. Those are an affront to those who have went through the proper channels, training, and schooling to heed the call. If someone wants to do marriages, fine, just don't get 'ordained', as that is a confirming act of the church. Online ordinations are out of order, and do far more harm than good.
I am the Lone Locust of the Apocalypse! Think of me when you look to the night sky!
In your opinion it is a circumvention. In my opinion it is not. I have no problems with disagreements. I have a problem with opinions that are stated as facts. That says to me that you are not interested in anyone who disagrees.
Alisa
So, there I was an atheist in jail. I sent in to the Universal Life Church of Modesto, CA for free ordination. Their paperwork, which I received with the "ordination" certificate said something about god(s) and spirituality and promoting peace and justice. I had no problem with peace and justice, well justice anyway (at that time I thought violent revolution a viable option). I guess my point is that these mail order ordinations really aren't worth the paper they are printed on, except to fulfill some legalities in some jurisdictions.
You can be right or you can be in relationship
Not true that just anyone can officiate at a Colorado wedding, but is true it requires no one but bride, groom, and witness.
Seems that without ordination, one could still perform a marriage if district licensed(?). Have a fuzzy memory of having read that somewhere, but no idea where. (in Naz info somewhere?)
Life beats down and crushes the soul and art reminds you that you have one.
~ Stella Adler ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
It takes a great deal of maturity to accept that trying to eliminate all risk eliminates life.
~ Susan Lapin ~
That is true. I have a district license and have been authorized by the State of Ohio to perform weddings, as long I hold my license. If it was taken away or I let it lapse without renewal, I would lose the right to officiate. Another problem with these indulgence ordinations are that they are good forever.Seems that without ordination, one could still perform a marriage if district licensed(?). Have a fuzzy memory of having read that somewhere, but no idea where. (in Naz info somewhere?)
I am the Lone Locust of the Apocalypse! Think of me when you look to the night sky!
I'm sorry I entered this conversation - I thought you wanted opinions but you only wanted an amen.
Alisa
Alisa,
Sorry you feel that way. Part of having different opinions means that there will be disagreements.
I am the Lone Locust of the Apocalypse! Think of me when you look to the night sky!
Okay, thanks.
I am the Lone Locust of the Apocalypse! Think of me when you look to the night sky!
Alisa,
I did say I have an opinion. You've really given no good responses to the practice and theology of ordination and the authority of church leaders to ordain. Several others here have stated that is is not a good practice. I like several others here, are either ordained pastors or licenced ministers. I am speaking out of my understanding of ordination.I have stated those to you several times. You have told me I did not want to hear any opinions ,just amens. Then you tell me I'm not interested in anyone who disagrees. If that was the case, I would not even respond to you. You seem to have made this a personal thing. Well, I am sorry you feel that way. If I came on too stong on my then I apologize. If we can't disagree agreeably, we can stop here. This isn't worth either of us getting upset with each other.
Last edited by Greg Farra; July 18th, 2012 at 06:43 AM. Reason: Needed to be less harsh on my part
I am the Lone Locust of the Apocalypse! Think of me when you look to the night sky!
Ah you were editing when I tried to quote - very interesting. My issue is that I tried to make it very clear that their opinion was ... and you stated "It is still: - as in a fact. As to Pastor Mark - while he couldn't attend the second ceremony - I honestly don't think he had a problem with their choice. If they had chosen to have the ceremony at our church, he would have stood with Kenny's minister of music so that a true ordained elder as required by the manual was a part of the ceremony and he would have insisted on one of our pastors doing counseling. He would not have denied them the option of a non-ordained person doing the ceremony - my belief based on previous conversations with him but not on this particular case. He certainly doesn't treat them any differently than he does any other young couple in our church that is married even though he didn't perform the ceremony.
There are times (yes, they do happen) that I'm rather happy with our laws. As I've shared before, in the Netherlands, the pastor has no legal authority to marry people. He or she can only held a religious ceremony after the legal wedding has been held at the city hall by a civil servant (though I have once seen that the civil servant present in a church service performed the legal marriage.)
Combined with the fact that in the CotN, marriage is not a sacrament (the GA rejected a resolution to that effect in 2005, if I remember well), the whole authority/ordination thing isn't that big a deal here. Churches will have their rules as to who can do a church wedding, but other than that, it's quite free. As a mere preaching layman, I've done 3 weddings with the permission of my pastor, for instance. Don't need to apply for fake ordination papers.
"No scripture can mean that God is not love, or that his mercy is not over all his works" (John Wesley - Free Grace, 26)
And there's no problems with that. I really don't care who can do a wedding. I do care that you can pay money for an 'ordination' when it takes years of preparation or have a geoup they are accountable to. My friend was ordained as a Freewill Baptist pastor with way less study than I have done (and I don't have as much as a collefe or seminary grad). He was examined by their credentials board and ordained. But he had some people that knew him, held him accountable, and the church ordained him.
I do like the idea that you would go to a civil official and get legally married. That would solve a lot of problems.
I am the Lone Locust of the Apocalypse! Think of me when you look to the night sky!
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