Do those who believe in a "classic" view of predestination, extend that view to ALL things or is it only a salvation issue?
Wilson
Do those who believe in a "classic" view of predestination, extend that view to ALL things or is it only a salvation issue?
Wilson
"But by the grace of God I am what I am." (1 Cor. 15:10)
What is your definition of the "classic" view?
"Preach the gospel; if necessary use words" is like saying "feed the poor and; if necessary use food."
I put the word in quotes because I am using it in any kind of technical sense. Think in terms of: common, majority, ordinary, typical, etc.Originally Posted by George Wallace
Wilson
"But by the grace of God I am what I am." (1 Cor. 15:10)
As a believer in what "I" believe to be a "classic" view on predestination... I have to readily admit I am not quite sure what you are asking..Not trying to be obtuse, but I don't see the doctrine of predestination as having to do with anything but salvation, so I guess that is my answer. Predestination deals with Salvation or Soteriolgy if you prefer. That's all it ever has dealt with as far as I am aware.
George
"Preach the gospel; if necessary use words" is like saying "feed the poor and; if necessary use food."
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So just because a person (you) believes that God predetermined my salvation (or lostness) that doesn't mean he also predetermined my spouse? Or, the color of the car I drive?As a believer in what "I" believe to be a "classic" view on predestination... I have to readily admit I am not quite sure what you are asking..
That is, do they (you) believe we have free-will in daily life even if not in salvation?
Wilson
"But by the grace of God I am what I am." (1 Cor. 15:10)Post Thanks / Like - 2 Thanks, 0 Laughing
I think there are two things going on here. Predestination, as George wrote, deals with soteriology only. However, the other question is whether or not God controls everything that happens or not. Which comes pretty close to the discussion on open theism, because you end up discussing if God knows something is going to happen, does that mean it has to?
"No scripture can mean that God is not love, or that his mercy is not over all his works" (John Wesley - Free Grace, 26)Post Thanks / Like - 1 Thanks, 0 LaughingPaul DeBaufer - "thanks" for this post
My current interest is only how those "two things going on here" relate to each other. Specifically, do those who believe in George-type predestination usually, typically extend their belief of God's control beyond soteriology to everything else as well?
Wilson
"But by the grace of God I am what I am." (1 Cor. 15:10)Post Thanks / Like - 1 Thanks, 0 Laughing
Many do actualy beleive all things are determined by God. Danger here is, things happen because God ordaines them, leads to fatalism.
And it's huge problem when it comes to theodicy.
"No scripture can mean that God is not love, or that his mercy is not over all his works" (John Wesley - Free Grace, 26)
This is an excellent question Wilson. I'm looking forward to George's answer, while we can only guess, he will be able to give us an answer from the horses mouth so to speak.
-Jim
To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.
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What ever George says it will be what he was intended to say since before the Creation of the world.
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I know of a lot of people who believe that God has one specific person that he intends them to marry, and everything about their life points to them marrying that one person.
Mr. Piper seems to believe that everything that happens happens because God intends it to. Not just knows about it, but is actively working to cause it.
Prevenient Grace and Open Theism both seem to indicate theological beliefs that, in fact, God works with us, rather than causing us directly.
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This boils down to a language or phrasing problem, while people often use predestine, or destine as in our ‘destiny’- what will happen. When we speak theologically of the Doctrine of Predestination we are only speaking of Salvation which is, in my “classic” view monergistic, derived from Sovereign Free Grace. This deals with God as Redeemer or the redemptive process.
Now, it seems you are asking, “Does God control everything?” Or some similar question. To answer, Yes, I believe God is in absolute control of everything, nothing happens by chance. This deals with an entirely different doctrine; this is Divine Providence. This deals with God in his role as Creator, Preserver or Governor.
Both of these fall under God’s Sovereignty.
But, you’ve also brought in free-will, which is a whole ‘nother Oprah… Free will is different for believers and non believers. As Luther wrote in his Bondage of the Will; Adam and Christ were able to sin or were able not to sin. Unregenerate humans are not able, to not sin. Regenerate humans have the ability to not sin restored, the bondage is broken, that is sin no longer reigns, but until glorification, regenerate man is still imperfect and does still sin, it just no longer reigns, he is no longer bound to it.
The Confessions have the best concise answers.
FREE-WILL (Westminster Confession)
PROVIDENCE (Belgic Confession)I. God has endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that is neither forced, nor, by any absolute necessity of nature, determined good, or evil.
II. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom, and power to will and to do that which was good and well pleasing to God; but yet, mutably, so that he might fall from it.
III. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, has wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation: so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.
IV. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, He frees him from his natural bondage under sin; and, by His grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good; yet so, as that by reason of his remaining corruption, he does not perfectly, or only, will that which is good, but does also will that which is evil.
V. The will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to do good alone in the state of glory only
Hope this helps.Article 13: The Doctrine of God's Providence
We believe that this good God, after he created all things, did not abandon them to chance or fortune but leads and governs them according to his holy will, in such a way that nothing happens in this world without his orderly arrangement.
Yet God is not the author of, nor can he be charged with, the sin that occurs. For his power and goodness are so great and incomprehensible that he arranges and does his work very well and justly even when the devils and wicked men act unjustly.
We do not wish to inquire with undue curiosity into what he does that surpasses human understanding and is beyond our ability to comprehend. But in all humility and reverence we adore the just judgments of God, which are hidden from us, being content to be Christ's disciples, so as to learn only what he shows us in his Word, without going beyond those limits.
This doctrine gives us unspeakable comfort since it teaches us that nothing can happen to us by chance but only by the arrangement of our gracious heavenly Father. He watches over us with fatherly care, keeping all creatures under his control, so that not one of the hairs on our heads (for they are all numbered) nor even a little bird can fall to the ground without the will of our Father.
In this thought we rest, knowing that he holds in check the devils and all our enemies, who cannot hurt us without his permission and will.
For that reason we reject the damnable error of the Epicureans, who say that God involves himself in nothing and leaves everything to chance.
"Preach the gospel; if necessary use words" is like saying "feed the poor and; if necessary use food."
Also, others have already brought up theodicy, so I thought this brief 5 min. video would be helpful.
"Preach the gospel; if necessary use words" is like saying "feed the poor and; if necessary use food."
Yes, thanks for taking the time/effort to explain.
Wilson
"But by the grace of God I am what I am." (1 Cor. 15:10)
I still don't understand that.
Everything happens because God wants it to, but Christians have the power to sin or not sin. That seems to be contradictory to me.
Either God controls everything, or you can choose. But not both.
Well, the idea is that God uses evil for good. But ultimately, we cannot know. So it is more of a confession. The statements contradict, but it is claimed that we cannot know anyway and thus, the contradiction is resolved.
For Arminius, this wasn't satisfactory, he wanted to defend God's righteousness.
That we cannot understand everything and certainly not all God's ways are clear. The question is, where do we accept the gap.
But that is an oooooooold discussion.
"No scripture can mean that God is not love, or that his mercy is not over all his works" (John Wesley - Free Grace, 26)Post Thanks / Like - 2 Thanks, 0 Laughing
That's right, just because I don't believe it doesn't make it not so.What ever George says it will be what he was intended to say since before the Creation of the world.
-Jim
To know and to serve God, of course, is why we're here, a clear truth, that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard. But a little faith will see you through.
Garrison KeillorPost Thanks / Like - 1 Thanks, 0 Laughing
Not really, he doesn't answer the question. Unless he would argue that we don't have a clue about right and wrong. But in that case, we would not be guilty. But we are. So if indeed we know right from wrong, we can truthfully speak about what is right and what is wrong, there is a problem. And the preacher should work a little harder at answering it.
We are the heirs of Jacob, the one who wrestled with God and in doing so, was blessed. Not of Ismael, who's decendents created an image of a god who is really hot on sovereignty and on us to submit and shut up.
I am at God's mercy. Sure. I live by grace. Understood. But we serve a God who even changes His mind (would you believe it?) based on what mere mortals say. Yes, we have dignity. Not because of who we are of anything we have earned, because we're mere sinners deserving of hellfire. But we have dignity because we are the subject of God's incomprehensible love. And He calls us friends. Again, would you believe it? The most Holy One, through whom everything has been created, calls us friends. And accepts our struggles. And is even willing to listen to us. It's beyond comprehension, but it is true.
Man, it's even more crazy: He died for us!! Sounds like gospel to me.
I'm sorry, but I always get carried away when it is about God's righteousness. In that respect, I'm definitely a theological heir of Jacob Hermansz.
"No scripture can mean that God is not love, or that his mercy is not over all his works" (John Wesley - Free Grace, 26)Post Thanks / Like - 3 Thanks, 0 Laughing
Here is the link to the full teaching, it was part of a 2006 Pastor's Conference The Title of this teaching is The Supremacy of Christ and Truth in a Postmodern World. But since theodicy was not the main point, he still may not answer it to your satisfaction, but at least if you want you can view the 5 min. clip in context of the full hour.
"Preach the gospel; if necessary use words" is like saying "feed the poor and; if necessary use food."
Not that I believe God's righteousness needs defending for his Sovereign Grace, but where did Arminus write about this, where can I find him refuting a God of active Providence?
"Preach the gospel; if necessary use words" is like saying "feed the poor and; if necessary use food."
I didn't say so. I said he defended God's righteousness in His actions. Though his main focus was not so much on providence as on soteriology. You can read that pretty much on any page he wrote.
BTW, though I don't agree with his solution, I do agree with Tom Oord that the problem of theodicy is a crucial one in our world today. So yes, for most people, you'll have to defend the righteousness of God. For if God is not righteous, why would one believe in Him?
But ehh, George, we're not starting the 400 year old discussion all over again, are we?
"No scripture can mean that God is not love, or that his mercy is not over all his works" (John Wesley - Free Grace, 26)
Thanks George, but I can't really stand sermons that last that long. Unless the preacher is a miracle of anointment, and this one is not. And I already know that Christ is the Truth, in whatever world.
I'm real bad at conferences, you'll understand.
"No scripture can mean that God is not love, or that his mercy is not over all his works" (John Wesley - Free Grace, 26)
No we don't need to rehash a 400 year old argument, it will lead nowhere. I just thought you might have a specific reference where Arminius defends God's righteousness. As for his beliefs on Providence, I am fully aware that he believed that there is no such thing as chance, and that God allows, permits and uses mans sin you know like he said:
Is there nothing specific I can read which references Arminius' thought about this defending of God's Righteousness?Providence, I by no means deprive it of any particle of those properties which agree with it or belong to it; but I declare that it preserves, regulates, governs and directs all things and that nothing in the world happens fortuitously or by chance. Beside this, I place in subjection to Divine Providence both the free-will and even the actions of a rational creature, so that nothing can be done without the will of God,
"Preach the gospel; if necessary use words" is like saying "feed the poor and; if necessary use food."
The reality, Todd, is that it is not rare for people to hold conflicting beliefs...
Wilson
"But by the grace of God I am what I am." (1 Cor. 15:10)Post Thanks / Like - 1 Thanks, 0 Laughing
Oh I thought you guys were talking about pedestrians.........
Carry on.
Dana.
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I was thinking about this thread and the whole tragedy in Colorado, and it does remind me that the Westminster Documents while I think far superior in detail and accuracy, at times do not appear to have the warmth that is reflected in the Dutch documents, like Heidelberg Catechism Q & A # 1.
Question 1. What is thy only comfort in life and death?
Answer: That I with body and soul, both in life and death, am not my own, but belong unto my faithful Saviour Jesus Christ; who, with his precious blood, has fully satisfied for all my sins, and delivered me from all the power of the devil; and so preserves me that without the will of my heavenly Father, not a hair can fall from my head; yea, that all things must be subservient to my salvation, and therefore, by his Holy Spirit, He also assures me of eternal life, and makes me sincerely willing and ready, henceforth, to live unto him.
"Preach the gospel; if necessary use words" is like saying "feed the poor and; if necessary use food."
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They're called Lutherans
"Preach the gospel; if necessary use words" is like saying "feed the poor and; if necessary use food."
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Well, the best example is the Crucifixion. It was and is a sinful act of man, yet it was also ordained by God. It was part of His plan, yet the sin belongs to the humans not Him.
"Preach the gospel; if necessary use words" is like saying "feed the poor and; if necessary use food."
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Should have. I own a complete 300p dissertation on the topic. But, it is in Dutch. I'll check today if there is something where I can find an English translation for. Or at least refer to the source.
"No scripture can mean that God is not love, or that his mercy is not over all his works" (John Wesley - Free Grace, 26)
In fact, when it comes to theology, it's pretty much inevitable. (I would be willing to argue that if your theology makes sense completely, it is utterly mistaken). I don't think the great theological debates are about the problem of having conflicting beliefs. The issue is, where do we accept conflict?
"No scripture can mean that God is not love, or that his mercy is not over all his works" (John Wesley - Free Grace, 26)Post Thanks / Like - 3 Thanks, 0 Laughing
Yes, but did the humans do it because God made them do it, or because they chose to do it? If people crucified Jesus because God made them do it, then saying the sin belongs to them has no meaning.
Before the foundation of the world, GOD looked forward, (foreknew) because of His omniscience, and "saw" that the mankind of His creation would need a Savior. Because He desired a relationship with you and I, He allowed (how He could love us so, knowing the awfulness that sin would bring into the world, my feeble mind can not comprehend) creation to go forward, foreknowing that today I/we, in our human weakness, would have a relationship with Him through His Son Jesus Christ. WHAT AN AWESOME GOD!
So, I do not believe that GOD made them/us crucify His Son, He allowed it because He wanted to restore the relationship between GOD and man through His Son, Jesus Christ.
From my limited human perspective, I would never have created us. We are not worth the pain!
My Prayer: Father, use me until I am used up, then call me home and may I hear "well done good and faithful servant". Amen.Post Thanks / Like - 2 Thanks, 0 Laughing
George, the dissertation has a summary in English. I've scanned the pages. Will send them to you in email.
"No scripture can mean that God is not love, or that his mercy is not over all his works" (John Wesley - Free Grace, 26)Post Thanks / Like - 1 Thanks, 0 Laughing
There's a distinct difference between "God knows what's going to happen" and "God causes things to happen".
Predestination, especially supralapsarianism, is not so much foreknowledge as "everything that will happen was intended to happen by God before the foundation of the world for His glory". Which means that humans do what they do as a sort of massive machima play which has no meaning unless God says it does, and God is the only real audience.
I do not believe that GOD "intended" that His creation, mankind, would sin, bringing us to the place where mankind would need a Savior. That He would have "intended" for His Son to be the sacrifice for our sin. I believe that He "looked forward"/foreknew how mankind would act and with that foreknowledge, He still desired a relationship with you and I and created mankind. In other words, He knew how we would act and react with our "free will". He did not/does not cause "sin" to happen! If I were to try and assign a "cause to happen" label to GOD, it would be that with His foreknowledge, He created mankind anyway, and that would not be "cause to happen" but "allowed to happen".
My Prayer: Father, use me until I am used up, then call me home and may I hear "well done good and faithful servant". Amen.
This thought burnt my brain for a little bit a while back.
Think of the Trinity and the way in which we interact with God as the Triune God. God is the creator, Jesus is the savior, and the Holy Spirit is our advocate.
All 3 were in existence when God created us. Jesus wasn't created after we sinned. Jesus and his nature as our savior existed when we were created. We were created to live in perfect relationship with God the creator, Jesus the savior, and the Holy Spirit our advocate. We were built to need all of God.
The Triune God requires relationship. God requires our dependence upon Him and God requires us to choose Him.
I believe that God pre-destined that all His creation would live in relationship with Him through the saving grace of Jesus. Because Jesus was involved in our creation God would create us to be in relationship with who Jesus is. It is against God's nature to create man to be lost.
Sorry, if I got off track. But Dwayne's comments got me thinking.
I know we can further reflect upon God's behavior in the old testament against the enemies of Israel, but I will save that for another time.
In terms of the question. Predestination does determine salvation. My view is that God predestines all of us to be His children. However I have noticed a tendency in those who would claim that God chooses whom He will save and those whom He will condemn also view God as determining how their life turns out. I simply can't accept a God who does nothing but play around with me. If God is some being who gets his kicks out of watching me suffer, then He can forget it. If, however, God is calling me to Him and gives me the option to choose Him and allows me to live in relationship with Him, then I will do all that God asks and I will suffer anything that my creator requires to tell others about Him.
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Neither do I see GOD as puppeteer who created us to be His puppets. It is difficult if not impossible to understand His omniscience, His ability to know/foreknow all things, and at the same time giving us the will to accept or reject Him. His desire is for us to accept Him and through His prevenient grace, He works toward that end, but the choice is for me to make.
WHAT AN AWESOME GOD!!!!!
My Prayer: Father, use me until I am used up, then call me home and may I hear "well done good and faithful servant". Amen.
We are quite close in our beliefs about this - however, I believe God knows not just one future, but all possible futures and that he is prepared to work in redemptive ways based on how creatures he endowed with free will exercise that free will.
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I believe He is so omniscient, that he knows exactly what the "future" holds, but if there are more than one "future", I'm with you, He is prepared to work in redemptive ways based on how creatures he endowed with free will exercise that free will.
My Prayer: Father, use me until I am used up, then call me home and may I hear "well done good and faithful servant". Amen.Post Thanks / Like - 1 Thanks, 0 Laughing
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