Christians their own worst enemy...ouch this hurts.

[Bob Hunter]

I ran across this article on CNN and I'm afraid it has a ring of truth.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/24/opinio...html?hpt=hp_t1

What do you think?

[Paul DeBaufer]

I think he's right. I don't think it has just a ring of truth, I think he hits the nail squarely on the head.

[Roy Richardson]

Yep. That about says it. We do have a tendency to make ourselves look foolish

[David Parker]

Never heard of him or his group. He doesn't speak for me.

[Craig Laughlin]

Worked with a lady once who had never been in church. Her Christian neighbor had hounded her and her husband to go to church with them for decades. When he died, as they were wheeling his body out she walked across the street and said to her (literally across his body) "You know he's in hell right?" - True Story.

[Larry Parsons]

I ran across this article on CNN and I'm afraid it has a ring of truth.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/24/opinio...html?hpt=hp_t1

What do you think?

Who has elected Jerry Falwell,John Hagee and Jerry Newcomb to repersent Christianity. Most Christian that I know are thoughful .
Thanks
Larry

[Susan Unger]

Oh heavens.... especially Newcombe's statement considering he is a congressman.

[Greg Farra]

we just got an email from a member whose husband does not go to church. I'm not sure if he still believes, but here's the gist of it: he lost his job after either 20 or 30 years (sorry, don't have that e-mail) and we asked people to pray for him to find a job. We sent job leads, and he has a job after 3 weeks of being without one. He said that only Christians would do this for someone they don't know.

Despite bad press about a few well known Christians, I think most people get their opinions about Christianity from everyday experiences. This one was a good one. The one Craig related was not.

[Pete Vecchi]

we just got an email from a member whose husband does not go to church. I'm not sure if he still believes, but here's the gist of it: he lost his job after either 20 or 30 years (sorry, don't have that e-mail) and we asked people to pray for him to find a job. We sent job leads, and he has a job after 3 weeks of being without one. He said that only Christians would do this for someone they don't know.

Despite bad press about a few well known Christians, I think most people get their opinions about Christianity from everyday experiences. This one was a good one. The one Craig related was not.

This is good to hear. Unfortunately, it seems that all too often throughout the years, Christians have often seemed to have the reputation of being known for what we are against, rather than being for introducing people to Jesus, who can reconcile them to God the Father.

[George Wallace]

Here is what Newcombe actually said:

"If a Christian dies early, if a Christian dies young, it seems tragic, but really it is not tragic because they are going to a wonderful place ... on the other hand, if a person doesn’t know Jesus Christ ... if they knowingly rejected Jesus Christ, then, basically, they are going to a terrible place."

Seems reasonable unless one believes that those who reject Christ go to a heavenly reward.

As for the idiotic quotes of others during times of tragedy, I have just one word: DISPENSATIONALIST! (Which pretty much means, instant moron just add tragedy!)

[Paul DeBaufer]

Here is what Newcombe actually said:



Seems reasonable unless one believes that those who reject Christ go to a heavenly reward.

As for the idiotic quotes of others during times of tragedy, I have just one word: DISPENSATIONALIST! (Which pretty much means, instant moron just add tragedy!)

Standing alone, yes it is reasonable. But it was in response to the murder of several people and said while the family and friends were in the midst of the pain of grief. Even the most accurate of statements can be hurtful and even seen as hateful when spoken at the wrong time. And far too many Christians are far too likely to say something like this to someone who is grieving, while it may well be truth it is not loving.

[Craig Laughlin]

Standing alone, yes it is reasonable. But it was in response to the murder of several people and said while the family and friends were in the midst of the pain of grief. Even the most accurate of statements can be hurtful and even seen as hateful when spoken at the wrong time. And far too many Christians are far too likely to say something like this to someone who is grieving, while it may well be truth it is not loving.

Truth should never be used as a weapon.

[George Wallace]

Standing alone, yes it is reasonable. But it was in response to the murder of several people and said while the family and friends were in the midst of the pain of grief. Even the most accurate of statements can be hurtful and even seen as hateful when spoken at the wrong time. And far too many Christians are far too likely to say something like this to someone who is grieving, while it may well be truth it is not loving.

Do you know for sure that the context is as you say? I don't. This statement in the linked CNN Article is linked through Digital Journal, and Think Progress (an LGBT publication no agenda there right?) So at best this is third hand info, the only way to know the context is to listen to the AFA broadcast and see what he said in context.

So what does a Pastor say, what is or should be his message at the funeral of a Devout Unbeliever?

[Paul DeBaufer]

Do you know for sure that the context is as you say? I don't. This statement in the linked CNN Article is linked through Digital Journal, and Think Progress (an LGBT publication no agenda there right?) So at best this is third hand info, the only way to know the context is to listen to the AFA broadcast and see what he said in context.

So what does a Pastor say, what is or should be his message at the funeral of a Devout Unbeliever?

A pastor probably shouldn't be giving the message at the funeral of a "Devout Unbeliever". And should he not recuse himself his concern is or should be for the comfort of the living and not his agenda.

The statement was public in the wake of a horror and whether or not directed at any victim it would still be heard/read by the grieving survivors of the horror. It was poorly timed at best. Lacking compassion for the families, friends of the victims and for the survivors and callous, or seemingly so especially in the eyes of the non-religious.

[George Wallace]

A pastor probably shouldn't be giving the message at the funeral of a "Devout Unbeliever". And should he not recuse himself his concern is or should be for the comfort of the living and not his agenda.

The statement was public in the wake of a horror and whether or not directed at any victim it would still be heard/read by the grieving survivors of the horror. It was poorly timed at best. Lacking compassion for the families, friends of the victims and for the survivors and callous, or seemingly so especially in the eyes of the non-religious.

So you are saying that if a Pastor is asked by the family, in the "wake of the horror" of loosing an unbelieving family member, that he should "recuse himself"?!!

Wouldn't that be a gross statement, "lacking in compassion for the family" wouldn't that be the epitome of being "callous to the friends of the victim and survivors"

And then if by some miracle the family still wants him after he tries and tries to weasel out of the stench that apparently is IYO, in performing a funeral for an unbeliever then at this time he is to forget his "agenda" which is the proclamation of the Gospel in the hopes of saving souls, he is to just lay that aside and comfort others who are potentially paddling a boat straight for the shores of Hell!

That is your answer?? Seriously?

[Paul DeBaufer]

So you are saying that if a Pastor is asked by the family, in the "wake of the horror" of loosing an unbelieving family member, that he should "recuse himself"?!!

Wouldn't that be a gross statement, "lacking in compassion for the family" wouldn't that be the epitome of being "callous to the friends of the victim and survivors"

And then if by some miracle the family still wants him after he tries and tries to weasel out of the stench that apparently is IYO, in performing a funeral for an unbeliever then at this time he is to forget his "agenda" which is the proclamation of the Gospel in the hopes of saving souls, he is to just lay that aside and comfort others who are potentially paddling a boat straight for the shores of Hell!

That is your answer?? Seriously?

My answer is that there is a time and a place for that particular proclamation. To the grief stricken at a funeral is not the place nor the time. It lacks compassion, is devoid of love to add to the suffering of the surviving loved ones (IMO). IF one thinks that that particular proclamation needs to be said at every opportunity regardless of the added pain it can cause the already suffering, then I feel sorry for them.

Given your scenario the family of the "Devout Unbeliever" are believers already or they wouldn't ask a theistic pastor to speak at the funeral. Therefore, the proclamation serves only to cause them further grief, telling them what they already know only too well. And in the callousness of making such a proclamation, telling grieving people that their deceased loved one is burning in Hell is NOT going to win any converts and will push them even further away. George, you have been a believer all of your life and just are not in tune with how non-believers react to these proclamations. They are not too effective in the best of circumstances. Listen to what unbelievers say about Christians, all this condemning people to hell just turns them off. Now say it to grieving families and you are seen as promoting your own egocentric agenda and not caring and certainly devoid of love. It has the opposite effect. I am not that far past being an atheist that I do not recall my own responses. I have many non-believing friends and this is their greatest complaint.

[George Wallace]

My answer is that there is a time and a place for that particular proclamation. To the grief stricken at a funeral is not the place nor the time. It lacks compassion, is devoid of love to add to the suffering of the surviving loved ones (IMO). IF one thinks that that particular proclamation needs to be said at every opportunity regardless of the added pain it can cause the already suffering, then I feel sorry for them.

Given your scenario the family of the "Devout Unbeliever" are believers already or they wouldn't ask a theistic pastor to speak at the funeral. Therefore, the proclamation serves only to cause them further grief, telling them what they already know only too well. And in the callousness of making such a proclamation, telling grieving people that their deceased loved one is burning in Hell is NOT going to win any converts and will push them even further away. George, you have been a believer all of your life and just are not in tune with how non-believers react to these proclamations. They are not too effective in the best of circumstances. Listen to what unbelievers say about Christians, all this condemning people to hell just turns them off. Now say it to grieving families and you are seen as promoting your own egocentric agenda and not caring and certainly devoid of love. It has the opposite effect. I am not that far past being an atheist that I do not recall my own responses. I have many non-believing friends and this is their greatest complaint.

First, what is this “love” that says this is not the time to step on any precious unbelieving toes? Are you actually telling me that it is more loving to NOT preach the Gospel and let these people leave a funeral, confronted with mortality, their own mortality, for that is also always present at every funeral, and leave them without answers and without hope? What kind of love is this? It’s not Christian love and it is not at all Christian to just let the whole gospel thing slide and wait for a better time, this is not Christian and it is not Love at all ! It is being ashamed of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It is hate or apathy and uncaring masquerading as “comfort” comforting them right into hell!

Only a moron says (much like Craig’s post) at a funeral says, ‘Hey your loved one is burning in hell!’ That’ s just stupid, sometimes I don’t think you think before you post, but hey that is just my opinion. But, one can say at a funeral, “I am sure John Doe here would want you to know the love of Christ…." And head on into a very explicit no holds barred Gospel presentation.

There is no better time, ever to present the Gospel than a funeral! Everyone there is mandatorily confronted with their own mortality, they can’t shine it on, they can’t stop thinking about it. It is very real here and now, next Tuesday at work, well not so much. Any pastor who does not Preach the Gospel at a funeral is a wimp and a man-pleaser, not called of God at all, he is a hireling not a man of God, just a scmuck in a business suit with some platitudes to spout off. Might just as well sell appliances at Sears, or better yet why not have the Sears guy do the funeral!

It is real simple:

John 3:16

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Is followed by John 3:18:

“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

You are either united to Christ and among the living or you are united to Adam and are a walking corpse!

And I couldn't give a rat's patoot what unbelievers say about Christians! Who in their right mind let's unchurched, unconverted Harry and Mary dictate what they think ought to happen in a Gospel presentation??! Shear lunacy!

Repent and believe or die!

[Paul DeBaufer]

First, what is this “love” that says this is not the time to step on any precious unbelieving toes? Are you actually telling me that it is more loving to NOT preach the Gospel and let these people leave a funeral, confronted with mortality, their own mortality, for that is also always present at every funeral, and leave them without answers and without hope? What kind of love is this? It’s not Christian love and it is not at all Christian to just let the whole gospel thing slide and wait for a better time, this is not Christian and it is not Love at all ! It is being ashamed of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It is hate or apathy and uncaring masquerading as “comfort” comforting them right into hell!

Only a moron says (much like Craig’s post) at a funeral says, ‘Hey your loved one is burning in hell!’ That’ s just stupid, sometimes I don’t think you think before you post, but hey that is just my opinion. But, one can say at a funeral, “I am sure John Doe here would want you to know the love of Christ…." And head on into a very explicit no holds barred Gospel presentation.

There is no better time, ever to present the Gospel than a funeral! Everyone there is mandatorily confronted with their own mortality, they can’t shine it on, they can’t stop thinking about it. It is very real here and now, next Tuesday at work, well not so much. Any pastor who does not Preach the Gospel at a funeral is a wimp and a man-pleaser, not called of God at all, he is a hireling not a man of God, just a scmuck in a business suit with some platitudes to spout off. Might just as well sell appliances at Sears, or better yet why not have the Sears guy do the funeral!

It is real simple:

John 3:16



Is followed by John 3:18:



You are either united to Christ and among the living or you are united to Adam and are a walking corpse!

And I couldn't give a rat's patoot what unbelievers say about Christians! Who in their right mind let's unchurched, unconverted Harry and Mary dictate what they think ought to happen in a Gospel presentation??! Shear lunacy!

Repent and believe or die!

So you're okay with telling grieving parents, grieving brothers & sisters, grieving sons & daughters that their loved one is doomed? And you call that love? Of course you wouldn't say it as straight forward as "Hey, your loved one is burning in Hell" but isn't that the message many send? I don't care how well you clean up the language, it is what will be heard. I actually don't know how you could say it without sounding like, "Hey your loved one...." It gives no comfort. Is completely without benefit to the grieving. You will win no one to Christ like that. I just polled several hundred non-Christians and all that responded said that they have a negative view of any preacher who would do this at a funeral of a non-believer and that it would not influence them towards Christ. I'd rather forsake the opportunity to give a negative impression to give a positive one in talking about love, and leave post-mortem destination out of it. But then I never use Hell when talking to people about the Gospel.

Lunacy? Lunacy? Your the one who can't even follow your own scenario. We are talking about the funeral of a "Devout Unbeliever", that is NOT a gospel presentation, it's not a sermon, not a church service.

Repent and believe or die!

Unfortunately far too many would rather die than accept your ultimatum. Jesus models Gospel presentation the best, present love and acceptance. Paul never tells people repent or die. He presents good arguments for being in Christ. Never does he tell prospective converts that they are Hell bound if they do not believe. I am convinced that neither Paul nor Jesus would add to people's grief to try to win a convert. Think Jesus might have harsh words for any who would hold to this proclamation of doctrine over love and compassion for people. But I could be wrong, I just don't think so.

[Hans Deventer]

Repent and believe or die!

Frankly, I never understand what people who believe this are doing on NazNet (and that is not just you, George!). They could have saved a precious soul from eternal hell while they waisted their time on an online forum. But by the fact that they don't, their behaviour tells me that they either don't care about people getting lost, or don't actually believe this themselves.

[George Wallace]

So you're okay with telling grieving parents, grieving brothers & sisters, grieving sons & daughters that their loved one is doomed? And you call that love? Of course you wouldn't say it as straight forward as "Hey, your loved one is burning in Hell" but isn't that the message many send? I don't care how well you clean up the language, it is what will be heard. I actually don't know how you could say it without sounding like, "Hey your loved one...." It gives no comfort. Is completely without benefit to the grieving. You will win no one to Christ like that. I just polled several hundred non-Christians and all that responded said that they have a negative view of any preacher who would do this at a funeral of a non-believer and that it would not influence them towards Christ. I'd rather forsake the opportunity to give a negative impression to give a positive one in talking about love, and leave post-mortem destination out of it. But then I never use Hell when talking to people about the Gospel.

Lunacy? Lunacy? Your the one who can't even follow your own scenario. We are talking about the funeral of a "Devout Unbeliever", that is NOT a gospel presentation, it's not a sermon, not a church service.



Unfortunately far too many would rather die than accept your ultimatum. Jesus models Gospel presentation the best, present love and acceptance. Paul never tells people repent or die. He presents good arguments for being in Christ. Never does he tell prospective converts that they are Hell bound if they do not believe. I am convinced that neither Paul nor Jesus would add to people's grief to try to win a convert. Think Jesus might have harsh words for any who would hold to this proclamation of doctrine over love and compassion for people. But I could be wrong, I just don't think so.

I am really trying for the whole forum decorum thing, honestly. Either you have a reading comprehension problem or I have a writing apprehension problem. So I'll chalk our lack of understanding up to my inability to clearly articulate what I am saying.

I am just like you and the others that have commented, like I said it stupid and insensitive and just flat out wrong to imply or state "your loved one is roasting.." while at a funeral for an unbeliever. I am just like you, I would leave His/Her destination out of the equation completely. But, I do believe and have seen it handled quite lovingly and tactfully, to state something like, "What I am sure John Doe here would want you to know is that there is an afterlife, and he'd want you to know of the love of Christ...." (Isn't that true of everybody? Doesn't the believer want folks to hear the Gospel? Doesn't the Unbeliever writhing in the pit want to shout to his family, "Hey its real!... Repent and believe...!)

This can all be done without ever even approaching the characature you are talking about. I've been to probably about 30 funerals and this includes Baptist, Methodist, Free Methodist, Nazarene, Non-Denom, Roman Catholic and more (I've only been to two Reformed); these have been for believers and unbelievers and there are really only two thing in common for all of these.

1. I have always heard the Gospel preached at a funeral, that stated negatively is; I have never NOT heard the Gospel preached at any of these funerals no matter the flavor of the preacher and no matter the status of the deceased relationship to Christ.

2. I've never witnessed the idiocy you describe or attribute to a Gospel presentation at a funeral. That is, insensitively proclaiming or " telling grieving parents, grieving brothers & sisters, grieving sons & daughters that their loved one is doomed" or telling them "Your loved one is burning in hell" etc.

But at the end of the day, I'd rather see that, which I have never seen than be a party to your compassionless "compassion" that pats people on the back and hands them tissues all the way to hell.

Unfortunately far too many would rather die than accept your ultimatum.

Let die! Let them smoke, and scream!!!! Let them live with that until they writhe in agony! I don't save souls, you don't save souls, the preacher doesn't save souls. Only the Holy Spirit can change a heart, convert, regenerate or bestow the rebirth from above.

If somebody spurns the Gospel, shake the dust of your feet and move on to more fertile soil... or keep preaching the Gospel to them - it all depend on the circumstance. But, up til they are laying in the casket there is hope for them, for their salvation.

If they are an unbeliever and laying in the casket, then they are beyond the pale and the best thing you can do for those gathered is to tell them of the Great Love of the Triune God and that Jesus Saves!

[George Wallace]

Frankly, I never understand what people who believe this are doing on NazNet (and that is not just you, George!). They could have saved a precious soul from eternal hell while they waisted their time on an online forum. But by the fact that they don't, their behaviour tells me that they either don't care about people getting lost, or don't actually believe this themselves.

(like i said we don't save souls, the Holy Spirit does)

Well, I think both Wesley and Whitefield believed it! They both lived it. I think we are just lazier, more selfish and apathetic. In the end we just don't share their sense of intimacy or immediacy when it comes to presenting the Gospel and living for Christ. You present this as black and white, maybe it is but you and I live in the gray.

[Paul DeBaufer]

I am really trying for the whole forum decorum thing, honestly. Either you have a reading comprehension problem or I have a writing apprehension problem. So I'll chalk our lack of understanding up to my inability to clearly articulate what I am saying.

I am just like you and the others that have commented, like I said it stupid and insensitive and just flat out wrong to imply or state "your loved one is roasting.." while at a funeral for an unbeliever. I am just like you, I would leave His/Her destination out of the equation completely. But, I do believe and have seen it handled quite lovingly and tactfully, to state something like, "What I am sure John Doe here would want you to know is that there is an afterlife, and he'd want you to know of the love of Christ...." (Isn't that true of everybody? Doesn't the believer want folks to hear the Gospel? Doesn't the Unbeliever writhing in the pit want to shout to his family, "Hey its real!... Repent and believe...!)

This can all be done without ever even approaching the characature you are talking about. I've been to probably about 30 funerals and this includes Baptist, Methodist, Free Methodist, Nazarene, Non-Denom, Roman Catholic and more (I've only been to two Reformed); these have been for believers and unbelievers and there are really only two thing in common for all of these.

1. I have always heard the Gospel preached at a funeral, that stated negatively is; I have never NOT heard the Gospel preached at any of these funerals no matter the flavor of the preacher and no matter the status of the deceased relationship to Christ.

2. I've never witnessed the idiocy you describe or attribute to a Gospel presentation at a funeral. That is, insensitively proclaiming or " telling grieving parents, grieving brothers & sisters, grieving sons & daughters that their loved one is doomed" or telling them "Your loved one is burning in hell" etc.

But at the end of the day, I'd rather see that, which I have never seen than be a party to your compassionless "compassion" that pats people on the back and hands them tissues all the way to hell.



Let die! Let them smoke, and scream!!!! Let them live with that until they writhe in agony! I don't save souls, you don't save souls, the preacher doesn't save souls. Only the Holy Spirit can change a heart, convert, regenerate or bestow the rebirth from above.

If somebody spurns the Gospel, shake the dust of your feet and move on to more fertile soil... or keep preaching the Gospel to them - it all depend on the circumstance. But, up til they are laying in the casket there is hope for them, for their salvation.

If they are an unbeliever and laying in the casket, then they are beyond the pale and the best thing you can do for those gathered is to tell them of the Great Love of the Triune God and that Jesus Saves!

I have been specifically referring to the statements from the linked article and those like them that come off as telling the grief stricken that their loved one perished and will not be in Heaven. Those statements to the grieving concerning the post mortem destination of their loved ones. I guess I just thought that a fair assumption. I have never said or alluded to (or at least didn't intend to) the Gospel should not be spoken into the lives of the grieving. If the deceased is a non-believer final destination should not be discussed, but love and life abundant could well be.

Turn or burn is NOT the Gospel, the love of Christ is. If I present it in such a way as to not emphasize this love and only emphasize fire insurance and people walk away, shame on me. Turn and burn are NOT love, do not reflect the love of Christ. I'd rather say nothing than use that approach and chase people from Christ. I know many who actually let me speak Christ's love, but will not listen to a word a turn or burn Christian has to say. Again, I do not see the turn or burn model in biblical Christianity. But we each will evangelize in our own way.

[George Wallace]

Again, I do not see the turn or burn model in biblical Christianity.

What Bible do you read????

THE GOSPEL according to Mark 1:15

14 Now after John was put in prison, Jesus came to Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, 15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.”

So how do you preach the gospel??? Well my Bible says you do it by saying..." “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe..."

PS
I never said turn or burn I said repent and believe just like the Biblical example above. You are right it is about Christ's Love, the Triune God's love and it is about relationship. It starts with telling a person they're in a broken relationship..because they are a disgusting, no-good, rotten unrepentant sinner! If you don't let them no they are a sinner in need of a Savior you've not preached the Gospel, you've just offered them a life enhancement product. You'd just be yapping away selling them the Christian labeled version of a SHAM-WOW!

[Paul DeBaufer]

What Bible do you read????

THE GOSPEL according to Mark 1:15





So how do you preach the gospel??? Well my Bible says you do it by saying..." “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe..."

PS
I never said turn or burn I said repent and believe just like the Biblical example above. You are right it is about Christ's Love, the Triune God's love and it is about relationship. It starts with telling a person they're in a broken relationship..because they are a disgusting, no-good, rotten unrepentant sinner! If you don't let them no they are a sinner in need of a Savior you've not preached the Gospel, you've just offered them a life enhancement product. You'd just be yapping away selling them the Christian labeled version of a SHAM-WOW!

Repent or die is just another way of saying turn or burn. Nothing in Marks statement has Jesus saying that people will die (or burn). There is a huge difference between "repent and believe" and "repent or die".

Thank you for the repartee, I am done.

[Jim Chabot]

I have been specifically referring to the statements from the linked article and those like them that come off as telling the grief stricken that their loved one perished and will not be in Heaven. Those statements to the grieving concerning the post mortem destination of their loved ones. I guess I just thought that a fair assumption. I have never said or alluded to (or at least didn't intend to) the Gospel should not be spoken into the lives of the grieving. If the deceased is a non-believer final destination should not be discussed, but love and life abundant could well be.

Turn or burn is NOT the Gospel, the love of Christ is. If I present it in such a way as to not emphasize this love and only emphasize fire insurance and people walk away, shame on me. Turn and burn are NOT love, do not reflect the love of Christ. I'd rather say nothing than use that approach and chase people from Christ. I know many who actually let me speak Christ's love, but will not listen to a word a turn or burn Christian has to say. Again, I do not see the turn or burn model in biblical Christianity. But we each will evangelize in our own way.

I hear what your saying Paul, I definitely emphasize love as the primary motivation toward evangelism. I don't view "turn or burn" as an effective method when speaking with adults, still I cannot deny the truth contained there. When I hear someone speak disparagingly of one who employs this methodology, I will say that this is a poor way to get the message across, then I will say that it is also true, hell does await the finally impenitent. I tell them that this shouldn't necessarily be their motivation to seek Christ, there is good news and it is so much better. I do tell them that it is a large part of my motivation to share this good news with them, I don't want to see any headed for the lake of fire.

I will not offer my opinion regarding ones final state at a funeral. I will not lie about it though. I have had occasions where someone will say to me that he or she is now in a better place, free of suffering. I'm not going to agree, just for the sake of getting along. We must be truthful, I believe that "turn or burn" is truth, just that we shouldn't be so eager to share it as it is an unpleasant truth.

As to the article, I read part of it. It's clear enough to me that this fellow just doesn't like Christians for whatever reason and he is seeking to portray us in the worst light possible. The things he speaks of aren't representative of what I see.

[Jon Bemis]

I have officiated at scores of funerals, some of which were the result of very difficult situations including suicides, and one who was killed during a robbery attempt. I have never found it necessary to "dodge the truth" but also know that it is possible to tell the truth in such a way that it can minister to the living. Whether the funeral is for a believer or unbeliever I use a similar approach which is "How can we use this moment to prepare for death when it comes to each of us?"

When I have been directly asked by family members or friends regarding the final state of their deceased loved one who died in difficult circumstances I usually reply "God is loving, merciful and just and in His mercy will do all things right."

IMO it is not difficult to present the Good News in times of loss. However, it is possible to turn to Good News into bad news and effectively drive people from God because of spiritual arrogance and/or ignorance.

[Greg Farra]

My friend's uncle, who was notorious sinner, died and the family wanted the preacher to tell everyone at the funeral that it was too late for the uncle to be saved, but it wasn't for them. They wanted people to know what a selfish, rotten life he'd led and outright rejected God. Not something I'd recommend, but the preacher honored the family's request.

[Paul DeBaufer]

My friend's uncle, who was notorious sinner, died and the family wanted the preacher to tell everyone at the funeral that it was too late for the uncle to be saved, but it wasn't for them. They wanted people to know what a selfish, rotten life he'd led and outright rejected God. Not something I'd recommend, but the preacher honored the family's request.

Well, if the proclamation is at the behest of the "grieving" loved ones of the deceased.....

[Paul DeBaufer]

I hear what your saying Paul, I definitely emphasize love as the primary motivation toward evangelism. I don't view "turn or burn" as an effective method when speaking with adults, still I cannot deny the truth contained there. When I hear someone speak disparagingly of one who employs this methodology, I will say that this is a poor way to get the message across, then I will say that it is also true, hell does await the finally impenitent. I tell them that this shouldn't necessarily be their motivation to seek Christ, there is good news and it is so much better. I do tell them that it is a large part of my motivation to share this good news with them, I don't want to see any headed for the lake of fire.

I will not offer my opinion regarding ones final state at a funeral. I will not lie about it though. I have had occasions where someone will say to me that he or she is now in a better place, free of suffering. I'm not going to agree, just for the sake of getting along. We must be truthful, I believe that "turn or burn" is truth, just that we shouldn't be so eager to share it as it is an unpleasant truth.

As to the article, I read part of it. It's clear enough to me that this fellow just doesn't like Christians for whatever reason and he is seeking to portray us in the worst light possible. The things he speaks of aren't representative of what I see.

I think the author of the article portrays us as he sees us. This was my view of Christians most of my adult life. This because it seems that the negative gets a lot more press, the negative Christians are louder in public, and the impact of the negativity imprints longer. Of course this author doesn't portray what I would hope is the majority of Christianity and Christians. He does accurately reflect the opinion of non-believers, maybe not the majority, but a sizable segment. If we are to win these people who have had negative experiences or only know of Christianity through the loud public statements of those who give this negative perception, then it is incumbent upon us to engage in ways that that demonstrate that we, and Christ Himself, are not reflected accurately in the acts of those who can't seem to exercise decorum.

I think my response, in the time of immediate grief, while they are still in the initial stages, of one who would say that their non-believing loved one is in a better place, would be to hold my tongue.

[Jim Chabot]

I think my response, in the time of immediate grief, while they are still in the initial stages, of one who would say that their non-believing loved one is in a better place, would be to hold my tongue.

I wouldn't argue with this, holding ones tongue is often the best thing we can do, (I have to constantly remind myself of this, still I'm not good at it.) while at the same time I'm not going to convey agreement.

I can only think of one instance where I was clear. A childhood friend of mine had passed due to cirrhosis of the liver, and yes this was by his own hand. I had talked with him quite often over the years, his response was always the same. "Bud, I'm glad you have this God of yours, He makes you a really good person, but I know that when you die you get buried six feet under and you assume room temperature. Fade to black buddy, that's how it works." He was always easy to talk to yet his rejection was complete. At the graveside, his wife said to me, "At least Dave's suffering is over, he is in a better place." Through my tears I quietly said, "I don't think it works that way Robin, I really wish that it did." What else could I say? My friend of so many years passed and on his way to hell, it wasn't like I didn't know.

[Ian Gentles]

Having attended disastors, terrorist bombings, I find these kind of people repugnant. I simply loath their brand of christianity, it most certainly isnt mine.

[Cam Pence]

My friend's uncle, who was notorious sinner, died and the family wanted the preacher to tell everyone at the funeral that it was too late for the uncle to be saved, but it wasn't for them. They wanted people to know what a selfish, rotten life he'd led and outright rejected God. Not something I'd recommend, but the preacher honored the family's request.

Eh...don't think I could potentially lie...even at the request of the family...I am certainly not the one to speak with any authority as to whether or not in the final moments of this mans life, he cried to Jesus. We can say it is or is not likely, but we cannot speak with absolute certainty to the matter whether it is indeed "too late" for this gentleman. No matter what I think is likely, I would like to err on the side of hope.

[Benjamin Burch]

Repent or die is just another way of saying turn or burn. Nothing in Marks statement has Jesus saying that people will die (or burn). There is a huge difference between "repent and believe" and "repent or die".

How about Matthew?

In those days John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness of Judea, proclaiming, ‘Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near.’ This is the one of whom the prophet Isaiah spoke when he said,
‘The voice of one crying out in the wilderness:
“Prepare the way of the Lord,
make his paths straight.” ’
Now John wore clothing of camel’s hair with a leather belt around his waist, and his food was locusts and wild honey. Then the people of Jerusalem and all Judea were going out to him, and all the region along the Jordan, and they were baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.

But when he saw many Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, ‘You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bear fruit worthy of repentance. Do not presume to say to yourselves, “We have Abraham as our ancestor”; for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children to Abraham. Even now the axe is lying at the root of the trees; every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

‘I baptize you with water for repentance, but one who is more powerful than I is coming after me; I am not worthy to carry his sandals. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing-fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing-floor and will gather his wheat into the granary; but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.’

[Joseph Ellis]

I'm not sure what all the uproar is about. He did not address any specific victims. His exact quote (at least the portion in the article) is:

"If a Christian dies early, if a Christian dies young, it seems tragic, but really it is not tragic because they are going to a wonderful place ... on the other hand, if a person doesn’t know Jesus Christ ... if they knowingly rejected Jesus Christ, then, basically, they are going to a terrible place."

What he says is true, isn't it? He's not speaking at the funeral. He's not addressing the victim's loved ones. He's speaking on a radio broadcast with a largely Christian audience. The tragedy brings up the point that life is uncertain and none of us knows when we will die. Reflection is appropriate, isn't it? We need to be ready for death because we have no idea when it will come for us.

"I can't help but feel that to some extent, we're reaping what we've been sowing as a society. We said to God, 'Get out of the public arena.' Lawsuit after lawsuit, often by misguided 'civil libertarians,' have chased away any fear of God in the land -- at least in the hearts of millions."

This is perhaps misguided logic. However, he is observing a lack of the fear of the Lord. I think I can say I've observed the same. I don't think we can blame the Aurora tragedy solely on that, but I don't see why he can't have that opinion.

I think these comments would be inappropriate at the funeral, or in any speech directed at the victims and their families, but on a radio program talking about the larger issues that this tragedy raises, what's the problem?

[Paul DeBaufer]

I wouldn't argue with this, holding ones tongue is often the best thing we can do, (I have to constantly remind myself of this, still I'm not good at it.) while at the same time I'm not going to convey agreement.

I can only think of one instance where I was clear. A childhood friend of mine had passed due to cirrhosis of the liver, and yes this was by his own hand. I had talked with him quite often over the years, his response was always the same. "Bud, I'm glad you have this God of yours, He makes you a really good person, but I know that when you die you get buried six feet under and you assume room temperature. Fade to black buddy, that's how it works." He was always easy to talk to yet his rejection was complete. At the graveside, his wife said to me, "At least Dave's suffering is over, he is in a better place." Through my tears I quietly said, "I don't think it works that way Robin, I really wish that it did." What else could I say? My friend of so many years passed and on his way to hell, it wasn't like I didn't know.

I am sure you were heartbroken. In this instance you were among the grieving and grieved all the more knowing your friend's fate. I am sorry. I am also sure you had informed him and his wife many times over the years the consequences of final impenitence. I cannot disagree with how you handled the situation.

[Paul DeBaufer]

How about Matthew?

I did consider John the Baptist's warnings but he was not a Christian per se.

[Cam Pence]

I wouldn't argue with this, holding ones tongue is often the best thing we can do, (I have to constantly remind myself of this, still I'm not good at it.) while at the same time I'm not going to convey agreement.

I can only think of one instance where I was clear. A childhood friend of mine had passed due to cirrhosis of the liver, and yes this was by his own hand. I had talked with him quite often over the years, his response was always the same. "Bud, I'm glad you have this God of yours, He makes you a really good person, but I know that when you die you get buried six feet under and you assume room temperature. Fade to black buddy, that's how it works." He was always easy to talk to yet his rejection was complete. At the graveside, his wife said to me, "At least Dave's suffering is over, he is in a better place." Through my tears I quietly said, "I don't think it works that way Robin, I really wish that it did." What else could I say? My friend of so many years passed and on his way to hell, it wasn't like I didn't know.

I often times think about situations like this and I always come to the question of how profound a moment it is when we reach the end of this life. Perhaps it is profound enough for some that their whole thinking can change. I do not know how radically ones point of view can change in their final moments, but I certainly cannot write off the possibility that people can cry out to Jesus in that final moment and see him in paradise. There certainly can be people who choose to remain impenitent (and believe there are) to the end. There also certainly may be those who in their last moment in the deep regions of themselves cry out for forgiveness. (and I also believe there are) I do not believe however that we know for sure one way or another, but I believe that grace is so amazing that I can comfortably choose to be hopeful of the latter over the former, even if I could be wrong. I think our hope in this amazing grace is what continually drives us to preach and live the Gospel. All this to say that I am deeply sorry about your friend, but you still have the hope that, against even what you or I think is likely, that he very well could be in a better place.

[John O Comstock]

I saw the CNN article as an attempt to use the political correctness of the secular culture to try to make Christians look ignorant and shut them up. A way to try to shut up any possible truth about the punishment of God for evil. I think we need to ask ourselves has the politically correct preaching that seems to be so prevalent these days really been effective? Does anyone see the freefall of evil in our culture with the be nice and do offend anyone preaching? Have we succeeded with appeasing the culture with soft sin accommodating preaching? The question is does God punish evil? Or do Christians have no business pointing out evil and Gods judgment of it. Isn’t God punishing evil part of the biblical message? The Flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, the final judgment, plus there are simply multitudes of examples in the bible of God hating and punishing evil. It’s also true in New Testament Gal. 6:8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; Are the following statements quoted by CNN so terribly inconsistent with Gods truth about punishment of evil in the bible? Quote CNN “For example, after the September 11 terror attacks, Jerry Falwell blamed the ACLU, as well as feminists, gays and lesbians, for lifting God's veil of protection. After Hurricane Katrina, Pastor John Hagee said he believed God caused the largest natural disaster in U.S. history to stop a gay pride parade in New Orleans. Bodies were still being recovered from the 2010 earthquake in Haiti when Pat Robertson said the country was struck because it made a "pact to the devil." Let me quote the greatest preacher ever according to Jesus, John the Baptist. Mt 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance.” Didn’t John point out wicked adultery in his culture and got his head cut off for pointing out evil. Was Jesus concerned about being soft on pointing out evil with these words “Mt 13:41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Mt 25:30 And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Lu 13:3 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. Was Stephen concerned about political correctness when he pointed out there sins and was stoned to death for it? Am I the only one who has witnessed the huge increase in wickedness and sin in America on our watch in the last 30/40 years? Maybe we need to seriously consider if we have failed with our non offensive soft approach? I don’t have the answer for sure but I do believe the American Church universal has been a great failure in whatever we have done when I see the great falling immorality of our nation. I don’t know whether Falwell, Hagee, Robertson spoke for the Lord but I do beleive what they said would not necessary have been inconsistent with the teaching of the bible if they were speaking for God. They pointed out evil and pointed out that God does punish evil. I support that as being consistent with scripture.

[Glenn Messer]

I have conducted funerals for a number of people who were not believers (Christians, saved, however you wish to phrase it). I have never "preached anyone into hell". I have conducted funerals for a number of people who were believers; I have never preached anyone into heaven. As a minister of the Gospel, that's not my job. I sorta remember a story about 3 men dying together and the narration has left me wondering how much I know about who goes to heaven and who doesn't.

I have always used the opportunity to love a hurting family and to proclaim a Gospel of promise and hope to the living. That's my job.

I once did a funeral for an individual who was well known in the community. I knew the person to be a loving, caring individual; this person touched the lives of families and children in ways that society often neglected. Many in the community also knew this person had addictive issues. There must have been 300 - 400 people at the service. Afterwards, one lady came up to me and introduced herself to me as a fine upstanding member of the community and such and such congregation. She told me that she came to the service because she wanted to see what the preacher was going to say about the deceased. Her analysis??: I did good. My analysis??: I could have done without the "compliment".

Did the deceased go to heaven? I don't know, but I hope so. I would welcome them as a neighbor in heaven, but I hope I never run across that 'fine, upstanding lady' in the great hereafter.