Does Individualism = Selfishness?

[Billy Cox]

Within Nazarene conversations, I have observed that individualism is frequently cited as a prevailing philosophy or worldview that has an adversarial relationship with the Kingdom. I have lately been wondering why exactly that is the case.

So I offer these three questions:

1. Is individualism really the adversary (satan) of all that the Kingdom stands for?

2. Given the fact that selfishness is nearly as old as the human experience, is it accurate to refer to individualism and selfishness interchangeably?

3. Industrialized contemporary society is individualistic. (whatever that means) What can we do about it?

[Craig Laughlin]

The term I use is "radical individualism" which at least in my thinking goes to an imbalance between community and self.

[Dale Cozby]

The kingdom is made up of individual parts forming the whole. Thus the whole can exist without the individual parts but the part cannot exist without the rest of the body.
Each part has its own identity but also has an identity within the body.

A disembodied hand is a creepy thing. But dead body parts is yucky.

[Todd Erickson]

Individualism is generally tied to consumerism, the desire to have the self fulfilled in all things, with no room for sacrifice or self denial.

Of course, the drive against Individualism is often used as a club for "thus, whatever you want must be sacrificed for the greater good...which is the thing we want". Lots of subjectivity there.

YMMV.

[Steven Burton]

Change the philosophy we use.

[Billy Cox]

Change the philosophy we use.

Sounds easy. What does that look like? How does it happen?

[Billy Cox]

Individualism is generally tied to consumerism, the desire to have the self fulfilled in all things, with no room for sacrifice or self denial.

It's either my anthopology or a belief in prevenient grace, but something won't let me buy this sentiment. So, on the question of whether individualism = selfishness, your answer is 'yes'?

[Steven Burton]

Sounds easy. What does that look like? How does it happen?

Well if you are really wanting to do this then you better be ready from some migraines on the way. Nothing about changing the way you think is easy or a walk down on certain path. I have done so by looking into more eastern thought and ideas. Whether that be the orthodox church or the Jewish ideas. My main lines of change comes from reading forums and having discussion with a highly educated Jew. Even though I have come to realize that your average Jew is highly educated in consideration to the average Christian in their religion and understanding of their culture. It all about getting yourself out of your comfort zone and into something new and strange and forcing yourself to learn these new ideas so you have a better understanding of where they are coming from and can further understand your own self. I have discovered though most people don't like this idea of don't even care for this approach so you have few and far in between you actually excel at changing the way in which they think or in understanding new or other philosophies.

[Ryan Scott]

I like the "radical individualism" aspect. Clearly individualism isn't just a philosophy, but a reality - we do all have the ability to act on our own. Craig's recognition that no one can be a true individual is helpful. It is here we begin to realize that our balance between selfishness and sacrifice must be dealt with.

[Todd Erickson]

It's either my anthopology or a belief in prevenient grace, but something won't let me buy this sentiment. So, on the question of whether individualism = selfishness, your answer is 'yes'?

I don't believe that this is what I said. But then, you only quoted half the post.

People in Africa are identified in terms of their tribe, and what they bring to it. Their sense of individuality is much more muddled than ours, and they have no issue with coming to America and working and sending money back home.

But as Americans, we grow with a sense of "who will I be, what will I become?" We're expected to move out of the house after high school or college, and be self sufficient, and we are in a culture which still very much holds to the idea of manifest destiny. That particular sense of individuality can be anti-community, in terms of how it raises up the nuclear family, and even the individual outside of marriage, as somehow the most successful.

I'm not sure that we can make broad statements about the individual outside of cultural context and expect them to stand and make sense.

I will also note that Christ went to the cross as an individual, and that while Paul acted as part of a team in many cases, he still spoke and died as an individual.

I believe that, at least in our modern (or even post-modern) world, to truly be an effective part of the body, I must first know myself as an individual...my strengths, my weaknesses, my drives, my goals, my passions. I may be able to act outside of those things, but the energy I will bring to any task that I am truly in alignment with will be far greater, and God did not make us screwdrivers to be used as hammers, no matter how willing the church is to waste it's resources in the name of platitudes and willful ignorance.

[Ian Gentles]

We are very much a society of individualism, which has many good points, the self made business person etc, who creates jobs for others. In societies of old however individualism wasnt such a great thing, the unit, tribe, nation, being more important, one was part of the nation etc. Although OT had its individuals, the health of the nation, spiritualy and otherwise, seems the important thing.
Individualism isnt sinfull, after all we each have different gifts. However our indidualism must be as part of the whole, the body, the church. Now many times I have felt, "I'm fed up with the church (church in general meant here), I am better on my own". Yet God tells me, my individualism must be as part of thar body.
I dont think individualism is sinfull, we individuals, our gifts, natures, etc are meant for the benefit of the whole.

[John Reilly]

Within Nazarene conversations, I have observed that individualism is frequently cited as a prevailing philosophy or worldview that has an adversarial relationship with the Kingdom. I have lately been wondering why exactly that is the case.

So I offer these three questions:

1. Is individualism really the adversary (satan) of all that the Kingdom stands for?

2. Given the fact that selfishness is nearly as old as the human experience, is it accurate to refer to individualism and selfishness interchangeably?

3. Industrialized contemporary society is individualistic. (whatever that means) What can we do about it?

Billy, For me the most important point about individualism is that as Christians we are part of the Judea-Christian heritage which has always been a community of faith. Israel in the OLD Testament was/is embraced by God as a whole "the people of God" and so we are united with Israel through faith bonded and adopted into the family of Abraham.

Concerning your questions: ...
1. Satan gains an influence as an adversary when Christians consider their individuality more important than their commitment to the whole community of the faith, that is "The mystical body of Christ" as Paul extensively teaches about the Body of Christ in his letters.

2. In brief, I would say that individuality is selfishness. Paul writes in Philippians 2:3-4, "Consider others better than yourselves." As Christians we work for the common good of the united body of Christ as a force of love and witness of Christ in our broken world.

3. Ironically, an industrialized society requires a community working together to achieve an end. A factory is a community of workers with a common purpose. It is not industry that dismantles community towards individuality bit rather the lust for money and wealth. Capitalism without Christian values contributes to selfishness and individuation. Paul said, "The love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people eager for money have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs" (1 Tim. 6:10).

Christianity at its best is lived out in community. Jesus created community calling apostles and disciples to follow him. Jesus exists in perfect community of Father Son and Holy Spirit. The church is to model community after the love and unity of the trinity as a witness to the world.

[Paul DeBaufer]

Is there a difference between Individuality and Individualism? I think that I tend to think so. While individuality, that is being an individual, is biblical in that communities are made up of individuals with a common purpose/life together. Each individual has a different role toward that purpose/ life together. I see individualism as elevating the individual above the community. There is nothing sinful in individuality, but I think that there just may be in individualism as I understand them.

ETA: With this understanding I think that individualism comes very close to egocentricity and certainly gives rise to it by lending legitimacy.

[Sarah Smith]

Just a quick thought after reading very good posts:

I think rugged individualism is the backbone of the church.

By that I mean that each individual in the body of Christ has to have enough gumption and backbone to stand for the right--even if the group as a whole has abandoned it.

Only if each member is spiritually healthy can the whole be healthy.

Sort of the old thought about marriage--it is two distinct whole people coming together in one flesh. At least, if it is a healthy marriage.

But the sad sloppy codependent thought of each only being half a person until they come together doesn't make a whole, it just makes a mess.

If I am spiritually healthy and move to a new town, I can pretty easily find where Christ would have me serve.

But if I am not healthy, no amount of church joining will get me there.

[John Kennedy]

No more than free will.

[John Reilly]

Is there a difference between Individuality and Individualism? I think that I tend to think so. While individuality, that is being an individual, is biblical in that communities are made up of individuals with a common purpose/life together. Each individual has a different role toward that purpose/ life together. I see individualism as elevating the individual above the community. There is nothing sinful in individuality, but I think that there just may be in individualism as I understand them.

ETA: With this understanding I think that individualism comes very close to egocentricity and certainly gives rise to it by lending legitimacy.

Paul, I agree with your definitions of individualism and individuality. In Paul's teaching for example, each Christian offers the whole community specific and unique talents and skills for the benefit of the whole. So in Paul's analogy of the church as a human body with parts which function according to individuality, the whole community benefits and works together in unity.

[Dale Cozby]

Individual accountability versus Corporate accountability
Individual responsibility versus Corporate responsibility
Individual action versus Corporate action
Individual heroism versus corporate heroism
Individual sacrifice versus corporate sacrifice.

Selfless individual versus Corporate Selflessness?

So what happens if the corporate isn't but the individual is? What then? Isn't the corporate made up of individuals?
The kidney is part of the body but it can be transplanted.....etc.

P.S. I would suppose that when the body's head is cut off from that body it dies. The healthy parts can find new bodies to be a part of to replace sick ones that are killing thier body. Fun these anomorphic metaphorres.

[Jim Chabot]

Within Nazarene conversations, I have observed that individualism is frequently cited as a prevailing philosophy or worldview that has an adversarial relationship with the Kingdom. I have lately been wondering why exactly that is the case.

So I offer these three questions:

1. Is individualism really the adversary (satan) of all that the Kingdom stands for?

2. Given the fact that selfishness is nearly as old as the human experience, is it accurate to refer to individualism and selfishness interchangeably?

3. Industrialized contemporary society is individualistic. (whatever that means) What can we do about it?

My first thought is that I recoil whenever these thoughts come up. I get the same feeling that comes over me when I realize someone is trying to "sell" me on something. But after thinking on your questions a bit, I think I can be rational. I need to say that I don't find this thought to be prevalent in Nazarene conversation, perhaps naznet conversation, but not overall.

1. No individualism isn't even close to adversarial with the kingdom. Paul was incredibly individualistic, even to the point of eschewing marriage, yet he was chosen as the one to bring the gospel forward.

2. No, I don't believe that we can interchange the two. One may certainly be individualistic and selfish, they want to keep what they have for themselves. While at the same time, greedy selfish folks who have little sometimes seek community out of selfish motivations. I consider myself to be individualistic, I don't ask for help, I would rather suffer than put some one else out by reason that they would have to help me. When I seek community, it has always been with the thought that I would offer my help, never with the thought that I could get something.

When we move beyond the material realm, I've found that some seek community because they have a need for control. Luckily my individualism protects me from the myriad of little caesars in the church world.

3. Well we can get used to it and quit kicking against the goads. There's really no problem, unless one has control issues. I've already said that Paul's life is textbook regarding individualism. The man that God chose was thoroughly western and individualistic in his thoughts. Then again, that makes perfect sense, I remember a fellow who was a man after God's own heart, David was pretty individualistic himself. I'm now reminded that we are a Kingdom of priests, we now have individual access. Could it be that those who rail against individualism are likened to the Judaizers.

[Hans Deventer]

1. Is individualism really the adversary (satan) of all that the Kingdom stands for?

Well, a definition would be helpful. I proceed from what Wikipedia says, just to have a start, not because it is the last word or anything:

Individualism is the moral stance, political philosophy, ideology, or social outlook that stresses "the moral worth of the individual".[1] Individualists promote the exercise of one's goals and desires and so value independence and self-reliance[2] while opposing external interference upon one's own interests by society or other institutions such as the government.[2]

Individualism makes the individual its focus[1] and so starts "with the fundamental premise that the human individual is of primary importance in the struggle for liberation." Liberalism, existentialism and anarchism are examples of movements that take the human individual as a central unit of analysis.[3]

The definition makes clear that the answer is generally yes. Though each individual is definitely valuable as object of God's love and there is a healthy way of being an individual. But it is the lifting up of the "I" that stands diametrically opposed to whatever God wants from us. The Gospel tells us that giving up our very lives for others is the way of Christ.

2. Given the fact that selfishness is nearly as old as the human experience, is it accurate to refer to individualism and selfishness interchangeably?

I don't think so. They can and often do overlap, but need not. Even though many cars here are black, you can't say every car is.

3. Industrialized contemporary society is individualistic. (whatever that means) What can we do about it?

Teach the Gospel and become a subversive force.

[John Kennedy]

Giving up ourselves for others is one thing. Giving up ourselves for this that or the other individual or group claiming to represent others is something else entirely. It would be nice to be able to say, without further reflection, that individualism=selfishishness and, thus, live our lives accordingly.

Or, from the other perspective, it would be ncie to, without further reflection, state that individualism does not equal selfishness and live our lives in that way.

In the real world, however, it isn't that easy. The devil is in the details. Like most 'bumper sticker theology, statements like 'individualism=selfishness are essentially a waste of time. They simply serve to give aid and comfort to unreflective non-thinkers. Simply another technique used by the manipulative on the unthinking.