The Salvation Army's man problem

[Billy Cox]

Saw this article linked on Facebook. Since the Salvation Army is a cousin group, I found it interesting.

interesting excerpts:

I recently spoke at the Salvation Army Southern Territory Men’s Conference in Atlanta. Many officers told me that their weekend services suffer from enormous gender gaps – two or three women for every man in most cases. At least three officers claimed a 10-to-1 gender ratio in their Sunday worship services. I was dumbfounded.

Army Corps worship services suffer the same feminizing as other small churches: poor quality music, too much sentimentality, lengthy personal testimonies, handholding and hugging, etc. The quality of preaching can be inconsistent, since officers may not have received extensive training in Biblical exegesis and public speaking

[Craig Laughlin]

I think it would be interesting to know what the numbers are in the COTN. I suspect we have the same problem. In fact I suspect the COTN is on Sunday morning significantly more feminine, older, whiter and more affluent than the population as a whole.

[Rich Schmidt]

I think it would be interesting to know what the numbers are in the COTN. I suspect we have the same problem. In fact I suspect the COTN is on Sunday morning significantly more feminine, older, whiter and more affluent than the population as a whole.

I'd be interested to see those stats as well. I'd like to think our gaps aren't as great as those described in Billy's excerpts.

[Marsha Lynn]

I'd be interested to see those stats as well. I'd like to think our gaps aren't as great as those described in Billy's excerpts.

We would have a pretty good "random sample" if all of us who are attending Nazarene churches would submit our numbers.

Being a compulsive record keeper, mine are easy to come up with.

Last Sunday: 52 adults (not counting visitors) -- 22 men, 30 women

17 couples

4 married women whose husbands seldom or never come (one is incapacitated)
2 widows
1 divorced female
6 single females

1 married man whose wife was working
4 single males

[Gary Creely]

I would say my church has a slight advantage with females, but that comes primarily by way of widowed older ladies.

Just statistically speaking a church with predominately old people will have more females becuase of the 5 year life expectancy advantage.

That would not explain the kind of imbalanced in the SA.

[Billy Cox]

I would say my church has a slight advantage with females, but that comes primarily by way of widowed older ladies.

Just statistically speaking a church with predominately old people will have more females becuase of the 5 year life expectancy advantage.

That would not explain the kind of imbalanced in the SA.

I think the following excerpt is likely a primary factor, and would have a fair amount of overlap for the Nazarenes:

Worldwide, the Salvation Army assists tens of thousands of needy single mothers every month. These women get invited to church, and in gratitude they come. They make friends, become Christians and join the church. Their children get plugged into the kids ministry. But there’s no man of the house to come along

The Salvation Army also assists single men, but many of these fellows are dealing with poverty or substance abuse. They are not the most reliable churchgoers

I have observed more than one pastor who consciously tries to make the congregation and ministry "man-friendly", but to no avail. The gender ratio is skewed toward women, sometimes by nearly a 2:1 margin.

[Hans Deventer]

So why is a poor quality of music "feminizing"? Sounds like a pretty sexist remark to me.

But anyway, it's not something I recognize in my local church. We have quite good music, lots of men and women involved in it. Too much sentimentality? We're not going for the old "boys don't cry" stuff, are we? We don't have lenghty personal testimonies. Don't think we hold hands often if at all. Hugging? It happens. And what is wrong with that?
And we have a pretty strong men's group. They seem to like it (not me, I don't like that "men only" stuff at all. Been in the army, drafted ).

[John Kennedy]

The hand-wringing over the 'feminization' of the church would be amusing if it weren't so sad. The lengths that some go to to attempt to counter this are ludicrous (or however you spell it).

[Gina Stevenson]

The hand-wringing over the 'feminization' of the church would be amusing if it weren't so sad. The lengths that some go to to attempt to counter this are ludicrous (or however you spell it).

(spelled right, John) Only reason I can see, Hans, for equating bad music/feminization would be the sometimes innate (tho not always, for sure!) "mothers are tolerant of their offspring's attempts at whatever," whether high quality or not(?) that perhaps (some) men may not be as tolerant of ... ?? Not sure .... I know that I, as a musician, would/have sometimes help(ed) those attempting music, rather than merely tolerating bad music (ouch! My ears!).

[Hans Deventer]

Only reason I can see, Hans, for equating bad music/feminization would be the sometimes innate (tho not always, for sure!) "mothers are tolerant of their offspring's attempts at whatever," whether high quality or not(?) that perhaps (some) men may not be as tolerant of ... ?? Not sure .... I know that I, as a musician, would/have sometimes help(ed) those attempting music, rather than merely tolerating bad music (ouch! My ears!).

Not sure how's that a female thing. We have a woman who plays the oboe, sometimes even appears on nation wide tv, with a degree in music, and if anyone, she's been pushing for higher levels of competence. Her sister used to play in church too, and she was even better.

[Gina Stevenson]

Not sure how's that a female thing. We have a woman who plays the oboe, sometimes even appears on nation wide tv, with a degree in music, and if anyone, she's been pushing for higher levels of competence. Her sister used to play in church too, and she was even better.

Not saying they do not push themselves ... we do. Was just wondering if it is sometimes that so-called "motherly instinct" that causes some to be more tolerant/protective of some things/people ... ??

[Marsha Lynn]

So why is a poor quality of music "feminizing"? Sounds like a pretty sexist remark to me.

But anyway, it's not something I recognize in my local church. We have quite good music, lots of men and women involved in it. Too much sentimentality? We're not going for the old "boys don't cry" stuff, are we? We don't have lengthy personal testimonies. Don't think we hold hands often if at all. Hugging? It happens. And what is wrong with that?

And we have a pretty strong men's group. They seem to like it (not me, I don't like that "men only" stuff at all. Been in the army, drafted ).

Amen and amen.

I initiated a food-focused gathering at the church last night in the absence of our usual Wednesday schedule. (I have figured out that I can't make church happen, but I can make food happen.) Among others, it attracted a 20-something young man who has followed the pattern of his generation by drifting away from formal church gatherings. It was great to see him and get a hug from him. I guess it's not the hugs that have been keeping him away.

And I'm with you on the gender-specific subgroups in the church. On our usual Wednesday evenings, there's a women's Bible study that meets. I don't miss being part of it as I gather with what started as a group with mostly young ladies but which has evolved -- after three of the young ladies moved -- into a "men's ministry". When someone tried to start an actual men's ministry, the guys in my group didn't sign up for it, agreeing that groups which exclude people based on their gender are unattractive. Right now, we're a few people short of having enough for a good group discussion, but I'm hoping and praying that we can increase in numbers (i.e., viability) and gender diversity in the months to come.

Marsha

[Houston Thomas]

Saw this article linked on Facebook. Since the Salvation Army is a cousin group, I found it interesting.

Hasn't this always historically been the case? In fact, as Rodney Stark points out in The Rise of Christianity, this is one of the aspects of the early church that made it compelling in the Roman Empire. In the Roman Empire men outnumbered women and women were lowly valued. In the church, women were given higher status. As a result, in the early church women outnumbered men.

We don't live in the Roman Empire. But we do live in a society that still doesn't treat women as it treats men (I'm not arguing if that is right or wrong). Could it be that a community that gives higher status to women is an unattractive or threatening community to some (most?) men?

[Marsha Lynn]

Could it be that a community that gives higher status to women is an unattractive or threatening community to some (most?) men?

Only if there is a corresponding perception that the church gives lower status to men.

[Billy Cox]

So why is a poor quality of music "feminizing"? Sounds like a pretty sexist remark to me.

But anyway, it's not something I recognize in my local church. We have quite good music, lots of men and women involved in it. Too much sentimentality? We're not going for the old "boys don't cry" stuff, are we? We don't have lenghty personal testimonies. Don't think we hold hands often if at all. Hugging? It happens. And what is wrong with that?
And we have a pretty strong men's group. They seem to like it (not me, I don't like that "men only" stuff at all. Been in the army, drafted ).

I think there must be more to this than just the observation that congregational demographics are skewed toward women and so-called effeminate men. Perhaps it is not just men, but certain types of men - possibly Joe 6-pack, working class, rough around the edges guys who apparently hate sentimentality. (?)

[Billy Cox]

The hand-wringing over the 'feminization' of the church would be amusing if it weren't so sad. The lengths that some go to to attempt to counter this are ludicrous (or however you spell it).

Curious... Do you dispute their statistics, or their interpretation? ...or both?

I think they have a point to a certain degree, but then I'm one of those dreaded girlie men who would prefer to read or talk theology rather than killing things and showcasing my physical prowess. I am conflicted.

[John Kennedy]

Curious... Do you dispute their statistics, or their interpretation? ...or both?

I think they have a point to a certain degree, but then I'm one of those dreaded girlie men who would prefer to read or talk theology rather than killing things and showcasing my physical prowess. I am conflicted.

Kind of both. But, I must confess a real, deep-seated antipathy toward the crowd that pushes this agenda. I have found many of them to be in opposition to women in ministry and I have little, if any, appreciation for that mindset.

[Billy Cox]

Kind of both. But, I must confess a real, deep-seated antipathy toward the crowd that pushes this agenda. I have found many of them to be in opposition to women in ministry and I have little, if any, appreciation for that mindset.

I have a feeling that there is a way for congregational culture to honor people of both genders without being compelled to villainize one or dominate the other. However, the default culture seems to be feminine; at least if we take into account men voting with their feet.

[Marsha Lynn]

I have a feeling that there is a way for congregational culture to honor people of both genders without being compelled to villainize one or dominate the other. However, the default culture seems to be feminine; at least if we take into account men voting with their feet.

I wish others would share their attendance ratios. The church I am in has historically been dominated by male leadership -- no woman served on the board for over 25 years unless she was the missionary president (a woman's job) or had no husband qualified or willing to represent her household -- and we have multiple men who have higher commitment levels than their wives. I wonder if there is a correlation between that data.

[Greg Gates]

I think the Salvation Army is a phenomenon. They are original in every way and it could never be imitated or duplicated.

I have no idea how they even have 600,000 members considering that they make their leaders wear childish costumes. And they have a problem attracting men?? hahaha

The Salvation Army churches in the communities I have pastored are stuck in time. Honestly, if William Booth were to come back to life today, everything would be as familiar to him as the day he died.

Also, as you move out of the gutter (so to speak) the Salvation Army doesn't seem to know what to do with you. The few guys who are willing to make the financial and social sacrifices necessary to stay in near poverty are the ones they have.

Contrary to what it might seem, I am a huge fan of the Salvation Army. I assume that God is directing them to play their vital part in the big picture, while taking care of them (and us) all the same.

[Bob Hunter]

This is interesting stuff. As many of you know, I am concerned about the state of men in our Churches. I find myself at loss for answers. In one of my finer moments on NN (not quite), I tried to advocate for men in the local Church. I've discovered almost any attempt to do so comes off as chauvinistic, bigoted, and somehow biased. Of course, I went about it the wrong way, generalized too much, and ended up with a inbox full of messages accusing me of being irrational, erratic and intellectually careless. But then, this problem (AWOL men) just doesn't go away and it keeps rearing its ugly head. I'm still troubled with the idea that we would eliminate traditional gender roles for the sake of equality. There is something about our biology that lends itself to fulfilling those roles. Of course, elevating gender roles can be a set-up for all kinds of problems, I get that.

Here is the thread on hyper-masculinity for a few months ago. Again, this is not a super friendly, pat each other on the back thread. This topic is extremely divisive.

http://www.naznet.com/community/show...-strikes-again

[Andy Mistak]

I think this is a particularly tough issue for the Church of the Nazarene because of our steadfast historical stand on women in ministry and our extreme cultural and political conservatism. Those two things rarely go together.

My suggestion is to rethink our conservatism, but that's probably not gonna happen.

[Billy Cox]

I wish others would share their attendance ratios. The church I am in has historically been dominated by male leadership -- no woman served on the board for over 25 years unless she was the missionary president (a woman's job) or had no husband qualified or willing to represent her household -- and we have multiple men who have higher commitment levels than their wives. I wonder if there is a correlation between that data.

I have often wondered how an organization with overwhelmingly male leadership could have a pronounced gender imbalance. This leads me to believe that something else must be at work here.

I suspect (to use a military analogy) that the colonels and majors are almost all male, but it's the mostly female sergeants and corporals who keep the program running and have substantial ownership of the ministry where it really happens.

Show me a congregation with a substantial number of male 'sergeants and corporals' and I wager that any gender disparity will be minimal if it exists at all.

[Gary Creely]

But, I must confess a real, deep-seated antipathy toward the crowd that pushes this agenda.

And by crowd you mean Mark Driscoll?

[Marissa Lynn Coblentz]

Here are a couple of my (very amateur) theories about the issue of lack of male involvement in church:

1. As Houston Thomas pointed out, Rodney Stark has some very strong evidence that the church has ALWAYS been primarily female--not necessarily in leadership, but in regular attendance. In Uncle Tom's Cabin, for example, it was the women who were responsible for the moral education of the children, while the men were responsible for financial support. Even if one might question the historical accuracy of that book, the view of women as the moral compass of the family seems to have been pretty prevalent in colonial days. Also, men have historically been less represented in the adult population due to wars, more dangerous occupations, etc, so of course that disparity showed up in church as well. (In fact, Stark also suggests that average church attendance in the United States in the last 100 years is higher overall than it's ever been in any other part of the world at any time in history.)

2. According to a book I read for one of my classes (Personality Type and Religious Leadership by Roy Oswald and Otto Kroeger), the Myers-Briggs combination of ESTP has very little representation in the church. I think I remember it being around 2%. A person with that particular combination is more likely to be a race car driver than to attend church. I don't know if that personality type is more common among men, but I think in general, the current manifestation of the church in America seems to attract some personality types more than others. I meet men and women both who tend to more "do-ers" than "talkers" and have little patience for church involvement. Some churches seem to do well involving this personality type at the lay level, but others seem to struggle.

In general, churches seem to have more hands-on lay positions for women than men. Female do-ers may work in the nursery or participate on the worship team. However, besides ushering, there aren't very many traditional male positions in the church for men who prefer to be active. Male do-ers may be more comfortable in pastoral positions in order to have something to do in the service.

Anyway, those are just some theories I've been considering since reading the aforementioned "lack of men in church" thread.

[Billy Cox]

I think the Salvation Army is a phenomenon. They are original in every way and it could never be imitated or duplicated.

I have no idea how they even have 600,000 members considering that they make their leaders wear childish costumes. And they have a problem attracting men?? hahaha

The Salvation Army churches in the communities I have pastored are stuck in time. Honestly, if William Booth were to come back to life today, everything would be as familiar to him as the day he died.

Also, as you move out of the gutter (so to speak) the Salvation Army doesn't seem to know what to do with you. The few guys who are willing to make the financial and social sacrifices necessary to stay in near poverty are the ones they have.

Contrary to what it might seem, I am a huge fan of the Salvation Army. I assume that God is directing them to play their vital part in the big picture, while taking care of them (and us) all the same.

The Salvation Army is well thought of by society in general despite some of their eccentricities. It may help that they are known for their thrift stores and Christmas kettles, and not their peculiar ways.

[Rich Schmidt]

I wish others would share their attendance ratios. The church I am in has historically been dominated by male leadership -- no woman served on the board for over 25 years unless she was the missionary president (a woman's job) or had no husband qualified or willing to represent her household -- and we have multiple men who have higher commitment levels than their wives. I wonder if there is a correlation between that data.

I'd share ours, if I knew them. Actually... I could probably find out. Maybe I'll have something to share after this weekend.

I feel like we're fairly balanced, but we probably have slightly more women than men present in worship each week. I've tried to keep our board balanced over the years (3 women, 3 men, plus me), but for the past year we've tipped toward women (4 women, 2 men, plus me). I know we have more female volunteers than male, due to women overwhelmingly outnumbering men in the Sunday morning kids ministries & breakfast table. Some volunteer teams have about an equal number of men and women, but I think the band is the only team that has men outnumbering women.

[Billy Cox]

2. According to a book I read for one of my classes (Personality Type and Religious Leadership by Roy Oswald and Otto Kroeger), the Myers-Briggs combination of ESTP has very little representation in the church. I think I remember it being around 2%. A person with that particular combination is more likely to be a race car driver than to attend church. I don't know if that personality type is more common among men, but I think in general, the current manifestation of the church in America seems to attract some personality types more than others. I meet men and women both who tend to more "do-ers" than "talkers" and have little patience for church involvement. Some churches seem to do well involving this personality type at the lay level, but others seem to struggle.

I imagine that anyone having a Myers Briggs type beginning with the letters ES will feel a bit like a fifth wheel in the average congregation. If my math is right that could represent a sizable chunk of the population.

In general, churches seem to have more hands-on lay positions for women than men. Female do-ers may work in the nursery or participate on the worship team. However, besides ushering, there aren't very many traditional male positions in the church for men who prefer to be active. Male do-ers may be more comfortable in pastoral positions in order to have something to do in the service.

As the Sunday morning worship service moves from the main event to the only event, the number of volunteer opportunities is in decline.

[Bob Hunter]

Can anyone successfully refute this claim: When women lead, men leave.

Bad question hun? You'll probably hate me for posing it. It's a very amateurish observation isn't it?

[Mike Schutz]

So, some of us got bored watching the Olympics...

... and decided to throw Bill Murray's "Groundhog Day" into the DVD.

I believe this is the reason why was made available.

Well, thank goodness my moderating duties do not require me to watch this movie.

Only a fool attends every fight to which they are invited

[Ryan Scott]

I found, in our last congregation - an older, blue collar place - that a lot of the women had really terrible lives (lots of early marriage, abuse, children with drug/alcohol problems). In general, women get a pretty rough shake in life. For a lot of those women I knew, the Church was really the only way they survived the pain of their lives.

God's people should be those who go to and welcome the hurting and oppressed. In a male dominated society it makes perfect sense that there would be less men.

[Rich Schmidt]

Can anyone successfully refute this claim: When women lead, men leave.

No, but I can express a counter-claim: No, they don't.

There. Neither of our claims are proven, of course.

Bad question hun? You'll probably hate me for posing it. It's a very amateurish observation isn't it?

Yes, it is.
No, I don't.
Yes, it is.

[Bob Hunter]

No, but I can express a counter-claim: No, they don't.

There. Neither of our claims are proven, of course.



Yes, it is.
No, I don't.
Yes, it is.

As I recall we went at it pretty hard over this one a few months ago. Let me try to understand where you are coming from...

So you claim people are mistaken, misguided and wrongheaded when they observe firsthand that "When women lead, men leave." Just trying to figure this out. We had a Naznetter that recently lamented his church was full of women and he could not attract men. In my work with men, I rarely find them eager to join a women's club.

B.T.W. Before I get hammered for being chauvinistic. I currently attend a S.S. class taught by a woman (Pastor's wife). Remember, I helped my wife develop pulpit skills. I'm not out to run women down, just don't have time for that nonsense.

[Rich Schmidt]

As I recall we went at it pretty hard over this one a few months ago.

Yes, I remember, though I don't remember the details.

Let me try to understand where you are coming from...

So you claim people are mistaken, misguided and wrongheaded when they observe firsthand that "When women lead, men leave." Just trying to figure this out.

I'm not arguing against anyone's personal observations. Because I haven't been given anyone's personal observations. I certainly haven't been shown any set of observations systematic enough to warrant a general statement like, "When women lead, men leave." That's a statement of a general principle, very different from someone saying, "When we called a female pastor, a lot of our men quit attending."

If you have some support for that general statement, feel free to share it.

[Bob Hunter]

Yes, I remember, though I don't remember the details.



I'm not arguing against anyone's personal observations. Because I haven't been given anyone's personal observations. I certainly haven't been shown any set of observations systematic enough to warrant a general statement like, "When women lead, men leave." That's a statement of a general principle, very different from someone saying, "When we called a female pastor, a lot of our men quit attending."

If you have some support for that general statement, feel free to share it.

Rich,

I think we both know how difficult this is. And of course, we're making generalizations! Discussion that involve gender always seem to fall into that trap. Yes, there are studies, research and statistics that seem to support the general observation that men prefer men in leadership and women also prefer men in leadership. Putting that aside, even if it was offered here it would be rejected because we don't want this to be true. We want our ideals to be real! And perhaps they should be to some extent because they are noble and worth striving for. That said, I'm trying to live somewhere between the real and the ideal. And the tension around this issue is quite palpable.

[John Kennedy]

And by crowd you mean Mark Driscoll?

There just seems to be a high correlation between the ones who constantly bemoan the feminization of the church and the ones who come up with this, that, or the other nonsensical rationale for blocking women who are attempting to follow God's call to ministry.

God calls who He will and woe be to those who, on account of some silly cultural bias would attempt to frustrate those who are willing to follow the call.

You know, it's always been incredible to me that people who constantly rattle on about how 'Bible believing' they are will attempt to create situations where their God-called women can only find meaningful places of service in denominations that don't claim for themselves such stratospherically high Biblical fidelity.

Isn't anyone struck by the tragic irony that the UCC, UMC, American Baptist and Presbyterians can find places of service and leadership for women but so-called Bible-believing churches haven't figured out how to do it? The latter have clearly let their perverted cultural biases trump the very word they so ostensibly revere.

[Nate Pruitt]

Can anyone successfully refute this claim: When women lead, men leave.

Bad question hun? You'll probably hate me for posing it. It's a very amateurish observation isn't it?

I worked in a research department for months at a specific (non-Nazarene) publishing house that served a few denominations that had created space for female clergy. What I learned from the hundreds of women on the phone was that the men didn't leave, but that they would run into greater problems with the women. No one put a finger on any particular reason- jealousy, sexism (there are many women who espouse the notion that only men should lead), or some other variable. Still, in my sampling of these hundreds of female clergy and dozens of friends within the church of the Nazarene the overall consensus has seemed to be that most of the men who leave do so because their wife says they're leaving.

There were other fun facts like women being assigned to three congregations in desolate areas no closer than forty miles to each other and asked to keep all alive. The combined salary of the three barely covering expenses, and this was typically for the extremely low cost household of a single individual. But that's not really what this conversation is about.

[John Kennedy]

Can anyone successfully refute this claim: When women lead, men leave.

Bad question hun? You'll probably hate me for posing it. It's a very amateurish observation isn't it?

So the church should just meekly knuckle under and allow the most bigoted to prevail?
How about, "If you allow blacks, or Hispanics, or Asians, or _______________ a place here, we'll leave?"

I'll raise the stakes: "The church is better off without them!"

[Nate Pruitt]

So the church should just meekly knuckle under and allow the most bigoted to prevail?
How about, "If you allow blacks, or Hispanics, or Asians, or _______________ a place here, we'll leave?"

Most churches don't have to worry about that, John. Congregations are ironically "segregations" in most instances. It takes a lot to make something as personal as the shared life of church an integrated activity.

I'll raise the stakes: "The church is better off without them!"

Addition by subtraction is sometimes necessary, yes, but few testimonies speak louder than those of people who have experienced extreme changes of heart. Hearing those once filled with blind hate speak in love toward, and about, brothers and sisters of different races is a thrilling thing.

[Hans Deventer]

Can anyone successfully refute this claim: When women lead, men leave.

Should get very quiet at the office. At the management level, we have 2 men and 3 women. My estimation: doesn't make a shred of difference but I'll keep you updated.

Bad question hun? You'll probably hate me for posing it. It's a very amateurish observation isn't it?

It tells me you learned nothing from the previous thread and are heading in the very same direction again by purposely posting something inflammatory like this. I had hoped for better.