Lack of Lament?

[George Wallace]

Here is a short article by Carl Trueman, pertaining to what Christians sing in Worship. A year or two back, prompted by a NN discussion, I informally polled a many of our large number of the "20 somethings" in our congregation as to why they were attending our Church, that is, a plain-jane conservative Reformed church that sings Psalms exclusively and only acappella; instead of one with a more contemporary worship style. One young man surprised me when he said something like 'Here, I don't feel like somethings wrong with me if I am not always happy...'

Such is the topic of this article:

“What Can Miserable Christians Sing?”

It brings many questions to mind...

Do you think lack of lament in worship is a problem?

Does a lack of lament paints a false picture or present an inaccurate picture of the Christian walk?

Basically, what are your thought regarding lamentation in worship music or a lack there of?

EDITED TO ADD (Of course I recommend the Psalms!!)
If lack of lament in worship music is a problem; what are your recommendations for tackling the problem?

[John Kennedy]

Lots of valid points. I can agree with the young man's point that he appreciated not having to feel something was wrong because he wasn't always happy. God knows how we really feel even if we're not willing to own up to it.

[Hans Deventer]

Do you think lack of lament in worship is a problem?

Does a lack of lament paint a false picture or present an inaccurate picture of the Christian walk?

A resounding YES on both counts!

Basically, what are your thought regarding lamentation in worship music or a lack there of?

The lack of it definitely paints a false picture. It turns worship into a drug that we take to escape reality and makes us dishonest towards God, which can only be detrimental to spiritual health.

[David Graham]

We always include prayers of confession in our services..... which are often preceeded by a time of quiet reflection when individuals can bring their own personal confession to God. As for music..... while I see a need for songs of lament from time to time.... I personally don't like "dirgie music".

[Paul DeBaufer]

Very good article and I agree with the author. I'd like to see the lament Psalms sung in church, as well as other songs about our suffering, doubt, anger, feelings of being abandoned by God. I think that most of us, when we are very honest, experience these emotions very now and again. Instead of repressing them and pretending all is hunky dory, lets express them communally, catharticly (did I just make up a word or misspell one here?)

As for it being healthy, I agree with that too. Peter Rollins dealt with an uncomfortable prayer from the Psalms here The Psalms, all of them are there for a reason.

[Hans Deventer]

A few additional thoughts:

I see no reason why we should RESTRICT our singing to Psalms, but as long as most other worship songs are unbalanced in this regard, we should definitely focus on Psalms.

Lately, thanks to the work of for instance Sons of Korah and several groups in the Netherlands http://www.psalmenproject.nl/ and http://www.psalmenvoornu.nl/ , there is an increased interest in the Psalms in evangelical circles in the Netherlands. Which is great! We may hope that this will lead to more balanced worship songs.

[Ian Gentles]

I love the Scottish Metrical Psalms.
Maybe we can over do joy songs in our worship. Maybe this is because many christians dont like to admit failure in their spiritual life, or being down in their mood?
Life is at best often hard, full of pain, so to reflect this in worship can be a good thing. Also "lament" songs, hymns, psalms, help us emotionaly to express our deepest emotions.

[Dennis Bratcher]

Here is a short article by Carl Trueman, pertaining to what Christians sing in Worship. A year or two back, prompted by a NN discussion, I informally polled a many of our large number of the "20 somethings" in our congregation as to why they were attending our Church, that is, a plain-jane conservative Reformed church that sings Psalms exclusively and only acappella; instead of one with a more contemporary worship style. One young man surprised me when he said something like 'Here, I don't feel like somethings wrong with me if I am not always happy...'

Such is the topic of this article:

“What Can Miserable Christians Sing?”

It brings many questions to mind...

Do you think lack of lament in worship is a problem?

Does a lack of lament paints a false picture or present an inaccurate picture of the Christian walk?

Basically, what are your thought regarding lamentation in worship music or a lack there of?

EDITED TO ADD (Of course I recommend the Psalms!!)
If lack of lament in worship music is a problem; what are your recommendations for tackling the problem?

I have said much the same thing for several decades, both in response to excessive emphasis on evangelism in services of worship as well as to the more recent redefinition of "praise" to mean "happy." (See Biblical Realism as Faith: The Wisdom and Psalms Traditions)

I think that there is something fundamentally dishonest in defining Christianity, whether directly or more subtly, in terms of the emotion of being happy. I have done enough counseling to know that in any given group of 50, there will be a significant percentage of people who are in some form of crisis, experiencing some form of pain, or who are facing significant personal issues that threaten spiritual and emotional well-being. To assume that worship must be totally up-beat and positive forces them to be inauthentic, and both invites and encourages spiritual role playing (lots of examples here). That is the significant problem I see in worship that begins with nothing but positive praise, which is often the typical opening set of worship, and provides no other mode.

On the other hand, all worship should involve movement, or as Dan Boone put it, should follow a "plot" (The Worship Plot: Finding Unity in Our Common Story). That is, worship should take us from one place to another, not just psychologically or emotionally, but spiritually. Most biblical lament psalms do precisely this structurally as well as theologically, which is why I have suggested the structure of lament psalms as a model for worship liturgy. Yet, that suggests that lament alone cannot be the dominant mode of worship. Lament as such may provide a beginning point to allow people to engage from their grief or pain, or may provide an opportunity for confession (penitence is a form of lament in the OT). But if it is to be authentically Christian it must move toward hope and joy (theologically, joy is much different from happiness), toward grace and faith.

I am convinced that it is this plotted movement, with a deliberate shift and movement between modes of praise that allows people to enter from whatever their circumstance, that is the most authentic worship. That movement does not depend on style or form of worship. However, it does require the movement to govern the worship regardless of style.

Grace and Peace,

Dennis B.

[Susan Unger]

Also "lament" songs, hymns, psalms, help us emotionaly to express our deepest emotions.

When I need to process those emotions, I play these songs on my flute. I always feel so much better afterwards.

[Ian Gentles]

I have said much the same thing for several decades, both in response to excessive emphasis on evangelism in services of worship as well as to the more recent redefinition of "praise" to mean "happy." (See Biblical Realism as Faith: The Wisdom and Psalms Traditions)

I think that there is something fundamentally dishonest in defining Christianity, whether directly or more subtly, in terms of the emotion of being happy. I have done enough counseling to know that in any given group of 50, there will be a significant percentage of people who are in some form of crisis, experiencing some form of pain, or who are facing significant personal issues that threaten spiritual and emotional well-being. To assume that worship must be totally up-beat and positive forces them to be inauthentic, and both invites and encourages spiritual role playing (lots of examples here). That is the significant problem I see in worship that begins with nothing but positive praise, which is often the typical opening set of worship, and provides no other mode.

On the other hand, all worship should involve movement, or as Dan Boone put it, should follow a "plot" (The Worship Plot: Finding Unity in Our Common Story). That is, worship should take us from one place to another, not just psychologically or emotionally, but spiritually. Most biblical lament psalms do precisely this structurally as well as theologically, which is why I have suggested the structure of lament psalms as a model for worship liturgy. Yet, that suggests that lament alone cannot be the dominant mode of worship. Lament as such may provide a beginning point to allow people to engage from their grief or pain, or may provide an opportunity for confession (penitence is a form of lament in the OT). But if it is to be authentically Christian it must move toward hope and joy (theologically, joy is much different from happiness), toward grace and faith.

I am convinced that it is this plotted movement, with a deliberate shift and movement between modes of praise that allows people to enter from whatever their circumstance, that is the most authentic worship. That movement does not depend on style or form of worship. However, it does require the movement to govern the worship regardless of style.

Grace and Peace,

Dennis B.

I agree what you say in reguards to those you have councilled. In my own experiance evengelicals want to stress the positive, success, etc. Evengelicals, to fit in, are almost forced to be joyfull in appearance, always victorious. In our worship, it often would seem, we have no place for defeat, or struggle. Put on your smile, raise your arms, look joyfully victorious, or you may not fit in.
There is a place for both "joy" and "lament" in worship. Yes, we are to "rejoice with those who rejoice", but also "to weep with those who weep."

[Billy Cox]

A resounding YES on both counts!



The lack of it definitely paints a false picture. It turns worship into a drug that we take to escape reality and makes us dishonest towards God, which can only be detrimental to spiritual health.

What's the point of lamenting and complaining, if it's all foreordained before the creation of the world?

[Hans Deventer]

What's the point of lamenting and complaining, if it's all foreordained before the creation of the world?

You may be reacting to the wrong person? I don't recall ever having argued for such an idea here on NazNet, but some folks remember stuff I wrote 10 years ago so one can't be absolutely sure.

[John Kennedy]

A church could do far worse than include the Psalms as part of their musical diet. Indeed, many have.

To me, balance, or the lack thereof, is a key factor in the music ministry of many churches. In one of the churches where I worked in music ministry, we used the text of the Scottish paraphrases (metrical psalms) with familiar hymn tunes and 'sang' that Sunday's Psalm rather than reading it.

(George will appreciate this: one of our prime resources for the Psalm was the Orthodox Presbyterian Church' TRINITY HYMNAL.) If appropriate material ws available, we would couple the Psalm with a contemporary selection that completmented it.

There have been an incredible number of tragic by-products of using church music as a marketing tool rather than as an avenue of praise and adoration.

[Peggy Gray]

I think that there is something fundamentally dishonest in defining Christianity, whether directly or more subtly, in terms of the emotion of being happy. I have done enough counseling to know that in any given group of 50, there will be a significant percentage of people who are in some form of crisis, experiencing some form of pain, or who are facing significant personal issues that threaten spiritual and emotional well-being. To assume that worship must be totally up-beat and positive forces them to be inauthentic, and both invites and encourages spiritual role playing (lots of examples here). That is the significant problem I see in worship that begins with nothing but positive praise, which is often the typical opening set of worship, and provides no other mode.Dennis B.

Had this been the widely accepted point of view over the last 40 years, my journey would have been much less painful.

[Jon Bemis]

The lack of it [lament] definitely paints a false picture. It turns worship into a drug that we take to escape reality and makes us dishonest towards God, which can only be detrimental to spiritual health.

This and the overly evangelistic flavor Dennis referenced are two of my major dislikes in regards to way too many services I have attended in the past. A friend of mine calls them "crank them up for Jesus" services. Lament and confession in the right balance are two important aspects of our worship experience IMO.

[John Kennedy]

This and the overly evangelistic flavor Dennis referenced are two of my major dislikes in regards to way too many services I have attended in the past. A friend of mine calls them "crank them up for Jesus" services. Lament and confession in the right balance are two important aspects of our worship experience IMO.

It's interesting that you mention "crank 'em up for Jesus" services. A minister I worked with for several years would frequently reject certain hymns and songs on the basis of their not having enough 'torque' - never mind the content, it was all a matter of tone and style.

[Ryan Scott]

Yet to see any disagreements on the main point of the thread. Perhaps the world is coming to an end.

[Jeremy D. Scott]

EDITED TO ADD (Of course I recommend the Psalms!!)
If lack of lament in worship music is a problem; what are your recommendations for tackling the problem?

I recommend observing the season of Lent, George. Try it out.

[Billy Cox]

You may be reacting to the wrong person? I don't recall ever having argued for such an idea here on NazNet, but some folks remember stuff I wrote 10 years ago so one can't be absolutely sure.

Haha, No it wasn't meant for you, but I thought you would appreciate a dig at the original poster, whose Reformed sympathies are well known or yea, infamous.

[Billy Cox]

I recommend observing the season of Lent, George. Try it out.

Unless Lent is hijacked by the notion that the happiest moment of Jesus' life was when he was betrayed, unjustly condemned, tortured, humiliated and executed. It kinda aborts the whole lament thing.

[Debi Peck]

This thread dovetails with a book I'm currently reading regarding worship. The title is: The Worship Architect: A Blueprint for Desingning Culturally Relevant and Biblically Faithful Services by Constance Cherry. She brings up some of these same points and then offers some valuable insights and tools for balancing these different areas. The book has really changed my life--not just with how I view worship, but also in my ability to "hear" and "see" God's part of the conversation in my daily life.

[George Wallace]

A few additional thoughts:

I see no reason why we should RESTRICT our singing to Psalms, but as long as most other worship songs are unbalanced in this regard, we should definitely focus on Psalms.

Lately, thanks to the work of for instance Sons of Korah and several groups in the Netherlands http://www.psalmenproject.nl/ and http://www.psalmenvoornu.nl/ , there is an increased interest in the Psalms in evangelical circles in the Netherlands. Which is great! We may hope that this will lead to more balanced worship songs.

Thanks Hans,

Here is another artist you and others might enjoy; Jason Coghill his site is called Ministryofpsalms.com. I’ll link directly to the page that allows you to listen to some of his work. Also, I believe I have recommended it before but there is a short collections of writings entitled Sing a New Song: Recovering Psalm Singing for the Twenty-First Century, edited by Drs. Joel Beeke and Anthony Salvaggio. This book is not a specific polemic for exclusive psalmody, but traces their use in the Church and advocates for including them in 21st century worship. (There are 1 or 2 articles within that come from the exclusive psalmody position but that is not the main thrust of this book.)

As for a RESTRICTION to the Psalms, I guess one man’s RESTRICTION is another’s LIBERTY. Certainly, this has been discussed before, but for us with the understanding of the Regulative Principle of Worship (God ordains the method of His worship - not man. Only that which is revealed by God in Scripture can be used as an element of Worship), that having man-made songs in worship would inflict harm on a brothers conscience and be contrary to Christian Liberty. (Among many other reasons for omission.)

As a Nazarene, you, you-all, at least from the Anglican-Wesleyan side of the house fall under what we call the Normative Principle of Worship. (Man can do what ever he wants in worship as long as it doesn’t go against Scripture. That is often followed by the clause from Corinthians about being done in decency and good order.) Unfortunately, “decency and Good order” are often very subjective, Pastors dressed as Superman, Motorcycle jumps in the Worship Hall and Clown make-up for Communion are just a few examples. These certainly are the extremes, but the difference in the principles is just the same at the level of 7-11 and Jesus is my Boyfriend songs or even hymns – some are great theological treaties, others not so much. With the Psalms you don’t have to worry about error, they are Inspired.

Contemporary folks don’t realize that instrumental music was not used very much for the first several hundred years of the Church, really not catching on until the 11-1200s and that this was mostly out of Conviction not do to lack of funds or instruments.. And many do not realize that besides Anglican Chant the CofE has a long history of psalmody also for years using the Sternhold and Hopkins Psalter and others.

All of the Wesleys’ Hymns were written and produced for metrical hymn singing, Wesley said he had no problem with instruments in chapel… as long as they were neither seen nor heard.

It was all about the “fruit of lips.”

Hope you enjoy the links.

[George Wallace]

I love the Scottish Metrical Psalms.
Maybe we can over do joy songs in our worship. Maybe this is because many christians dont like to admit failure in their spiritual life, or being down in their mood?
Life is at best often hard, full of pain, so to reflect this in worship can be a good thing. Also "lament" songs, hymns, psalms, help us emotionaly to express our deepest emotions.

Ian,
Here is a link to the online The Scottish Metrical Psalter. This website is great as it has a multiple Psalters, with their metre (Explanations of the Metrical System) and links to the various tunes.

Of course you can sing any CM (Common Metre) Psalm to New Brighton which is Amazing Grace...Psalm 1 in this Psalter is CM give it a try!

[George Wallace]

A church could do far worse than include the Psalms as part of their musical diet. Indeed, many have.

To me, balance, or the lack thereof, is a key factor in the music ministry of many churches. In one of the churches where I worked in music ministry, we used the text of the Scottish paraphrases (metrical psalms) with familiar hymn tunes and 'sang' that Sunday's Psalm rather than reading it.

(George will appreciate this: one of our prime resources for the Psalm was the Orthodox Presbyterian Church' TRINITY HYMNAL.) If appropriate material ws available, we would couple the Psalm with a contemporary selection that completmented it.

There have been an incredible number of tragic by-products of using church music as a marketing tool rather than as an avenue of praise and adoration.

Certainly appreciate any Psalmody John!

Here are some resources:

http://psalter.org/

http://www.crownandcovenant.com/Psalters_s/31.htm

The Trinity Paperback for $5.00 and the The Psalms of Davis in Metre in hardback for $8.00 are really good deals.

Point of Order: The Metrical Psalms aren’t really paraphrases, they are translations. (Watts first made the Paraphrases.)

Our (RPCNA) Psalters are still Metrical Psalms, but they have an assigned tune that is usually used. So it works much like a hymnal. Have you ever tried using a Scottish split-leaf Psalter… now that’s fun!

[George Wallace]

I recommend observing the season of Lent, George. Try it out.

Thanks for the offer Jeremy, but I'll have to decline. As a Reformed and specifically Presbyterian worshiper, I don't involve myself with such things, our liturgical calendar consists of 52 Lord's Days! or 52 "Easter Sundays."

[George Wallace]

We always include prayers of confession in our services..... which are often preceeded by a time of quiet reflection when individuals can bring their own personal confession to God. As for music..... while I see a need for songs of lament from time to time.... I personally don't like "dirgie music".

There are a few "dirgie tunes" but it wouldn't do to have a Souza March accompanying a lament now would it? Most are quite appropriate.

A couple of my favorites are 51E and 32C

http://psalter.org/

[Paul DeBaufer]

Thanks for the offer Jeremy, but I'll have to decline. As a Reformed and specifically Presbyterian worshiper, I don't involve myself with such things, our liturgical calendar consists of 52 Lord's Days! or 52 "Easter Sundays."

This is interesting as both the local Presbyterian and Reformed Church in America churches participate in the annual ecumenical Lenten journey. One of the churches I attend is RCA with a pastor that came out of the PCUSA and this church observes Lent. Guess there is a lot a latitude in these denominations for the local church.

[George Wallace]

This is interesting as both the local Presbyterian and Reformed Church in America churches participate in the annual ecumenical Lenten journey. One of the churches I attend is RCA with a pastor that came out of the PCUSA and this church observes Lent. Guess there is a lot a latitude in these denominations for the local church.

Tis, a strange bowl of Split-P soup indeed. Normally, the distinction between the confessionally Reformed is just that confessional. Meaning the Continental Reformed (Primarily Dutch as we really don't have many Swiss or German Reformed Denominations anymore) follow as their summary of Scripture's teaching and secondary standard The Three Forms of Unity (Heidelberg Catechism, Belgic Confession and The Canons of Dort) and Presbyterians have the Westminster Confession of Faith and Larger and Shorter Catechisms. There are some differences but in the main, we are all one big 'somewhat' happy family.

Historically, the Continental Reformed (With the exception of Geneva) after the Reformation culled their adherence to the Liturgical Calendar down to what are known as the 5 Evangelical Feasts including only; Christmas, Good Friday, Easter, Ascension, and Pentecost. The Church in Scotland (Presbyterians) eliminated all but Lord's Day observances. So, the strictest amongst Presbyterians will not even celebrate Christmas or Easter. However, the only denomination that I am aware of that doesn't currently allow for liberty on this issue is the Free Presbyterian Church of Scotland (not to be confused with the Free Church of Scotland or the Free Church of Scotland (Continuing) or the Free Presbyterian Church of Ulter/US.) In the FPCS denomination celebrating either would be an area for which one could/would be open for church discipline. Originally all Presbyterians believed this.

Today, in the conservative or Traditional denominations the observance varies. But none (other than FPCS) I am aware of make it a matter of discipline. As for my denomination we, have no special services, no decorations ect. Most likely the Pastor will just continue preaching through what ever book he has been preaching through, so basically there will be no corporate or public celebrations. (This would be to burden the conscience of a brother and be a breach of liberty.) But, people in their homes do what their conscience dictates. I have numerous picture-Christmas cards on my refrigerator from families in my congregation.

As for the PCUSA and the RCA well... what can I say both long ago, from our perspective, left the Reservation. (Yet, both still have "some" conservative Reformed pastors and congregations and internal organizations/groups that are trying to call them "back")

The difference between the Traditional R&Ps and the Mainline R&Ps is Grand Canyon-esque. But rest assured that what is now the PCUSA does not in the grand scheme of time have a long history of such observances, and while the RCA has a history of the 5 Evangelical Feasts, here you should note the conspicuous absence of Lent.

A good rule of thumb is that small R&P denoms are more likely to be more conservative, that is, in general to be discerned in the classic sense of "conserving' the ways of old; and large R&P denoms are not. Of course the PCUSA is hemorrhaging people and congregations as from the Carotid or pushing them out with the PSI of a Fire hose!

This is a link to an association of those that would be traditional (But certainly varying on many specifics)

http://www.naparc.org/

EDITED TO ADD:

For our a more International Flavor here is a International link to more conservative denoms ...

http://www.icrconline.com/members.html

The CRC -Christian Reformed Church- was a NAPARC member for a number of years but was their membership was suspended a few years back.

[John Kennedy]

After reading your post I took a look at my tattered 1961 edition of TRINITY HYMNAL - I believe that was the first edition published by the Orthodox Presbyterian Church (the denomination founded by Machen). In the section labelled HIS ADVENT/HIS BIRTH there are 21 songs ranging from 'Come, thou long-expected Jesus' to 'Hark, the herald angels sing' including most of the standard hymns and carols of the season. There are also sections relating to Christ's ministry and death, resurrection, etc., again with many of the standard hymns on those subjects.
I note that while there are quite a few Psalm settings, there are also many of the standard hymns and some gospel hymns and songs (including Lillenas. 'Wonderful grace of Jesus'). Recently, however, in looking at the website of a local OP (Orthodox Pres) I got the impression that many, if not most, OP congregations had forsaken hymns to go back to a Psalm only regimen. Is this the case?

[John Kennedy]

I'd never heard the term SPLIT P SOUP used in that ecclesiastical context before. You left out one of the ingredients in the mix - the Protestant Reformed Church (they left the CRC because the CRC was insufficiently Calvinist).
I've noted here before that many of my staunch Dutch Reformed friends (and we have quite a few in my part of SoCal) snort derisively when they hear Baptists referred to as Calvinists. The Protestant Reformed contingent could probably lead the SWD (snorting with derision) parade (but that's probably because I don't know any ARPC people in this area).

[George Wallace]

After reading your post I took a look at my tattered 1961 edition of TRINITY HYMNAL - I believe that was the first edition published by the Orthodox Presbyterian Church (the denomination founded by Machen). In the section labelled HIS ADVENT/HIS BIRTH there are 21 songs ranging from 'Come, thou long-expected Jesus' to 'Hark, the herald angels sing' including most of the standard hymns and carols of the season. There are also sections relating to Christ's ministry and death, resurrection, etc., again with many of the standard hymns on those subjects.
I note that while there are quite a few Psalm settings, there are also many of the standard hymns and some gospel hymns and songs (including Lillenas. 'Wonderful grace of Jesus'). Recently, however, in looking at the website of a local OP (Orthodox Pres) I got the impression that many, if not most, OP congregations had forsaken hymns to go back to a Psalm only regimen. Is this the case?

No, not really. Most are hymn singing churches that are or have been trying to recover Psalmody. What you will find in most OPC Churches is the Trinity Psalter/Hymnal. But, you often find the Trinity Psalter in the pew-back as well. I don't know how many congregations they have but the denom has about 35,000 communicant members and I am aware of only 2 Sessions (Congregations) that sing Psalms exclusively, oddly enough they are in the liberal playground of the SF Bay area!

The OPC never was an Exclusive Psalmody (EP) Church, that ship had sailed prior to its founding, yet back in the day many did adhere to exclusive psalmody or used many more Psalms than hymns. It came up before their Synod or GA (I forget which they have?) in 1946-47 and they published a majority report in favor of NOT adhering exclusively to Psalms and a minority report in favor of EP. They just like the Succeders (Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church- ARP) allow for it at the discretion of the individual Session (Congregation) as does the PCA. But you can count the number of EP Sessions in all three denoms on one hand and not drop your cigar!

As for EP denoms in the US you'll find us - the RPCNA, the Free Church Continuing has a couple of congregations, the Free Presbyterian Church of Uslter/US has a few and a tiny seminary in Greenville SC, a few micro Presbyterian denoms and a handful of Dutch Reformed, the Heritage Reformed Congregations, The Canadian and North American Reformed Churches, the Free Reformed Churches of North America, The Protestant Reformed Churchs and a few others. However most Dutch denoms do not sing acappella.

George

[John Kennedy]

I am aware of only 2 Sessions (Congregations) that sing Psalms exclusively, oddly enough they are in the liberal playground of the SF Bay area! George

Extremes breed extremes.

[George Wallace]

I'd never heard the term SPLIT P SOUP used in that ecclesiastical context before. You left out one of the ingredients in the mix - the Protestant Reformed Church (they left the CRC because the CRC was insufficiently Calvinist).
I've noted here before that many of my staunch Dutch Reformed friends (and we have quite a few in my part of SoCal) snort derisively when they hear Baptists referred to as Calvinists. The Protestant Reformed contingent could probably lead the SWD (snorting with derision) parade (but that's probably because I don't know any ARPC people in this area).

Many consider the PRC to be Hyper-Calvinist. I do not. They do not fully meet any of the classical requirements for HCism. (Although, they do have some different ideas on Common Grace and the Free Offer of the Gospel) Even though I love the RPCNA greatly, if we ever have to move back to "God's waiting room" -- the one down the hill from you --not the one to your West I would probably attend the PRC congregation in Redlands because the only RPCNA Churches are LA and San Diego.

Split-P Soup is the way our history professor describes it. With the exception of us RPCNA, the ARP's and a few of the johnny-come-lately micro denoms, virtually all of the other Presbyterian Denominations in the US have a connection with what is now the PCUSA. OPC and the Bible Presbyterian Church left in 1935 or 36. The PCA left in the mid-70s the Evenagelical Presbyterian Church left in the Mid-80s and now ther is a new confederation or denom, (not quite sure) that is catching the latest rounf of exiles from the PCUSA (I don't recall the Name?)

And this doesn't count all the fractures and reconciliations from within - Northern v Southern; Old School v New School; Old Light v New Light and others.

Pretty much the same on the other side of the pond also. Most All of them started out as part of the Church of Scotland and ..... Split-P Soup!

It looks pretty bad when you think of it but almost every break has occurred when one group wants to liberalize or move away from what has been traditionally held, not just by tradition but by conviction!

By God's Providence we have been spared any splitting for a long while (Our Spliters left us and join other existing demoms in the 17-1800s) so we haven't really split from anyone or left. For a long while the reason was because of our stance on Civil Government, now i think it is our stance on EP that keeps us purer!

George

EDITED TO ADD: We did gain two congregations and a Church plant in Scotland when the Free Church voted to allow for hymns at the discretion of the Session two years ago. (Most that left went to the Free Church Continuing which was part of the Free Church until 2001, they split at that time do to a perceived or real failure to disciple by the the Free Church.)

[Paul DeBaufer]

Tis, a strange bowl of Split-P soup indeed. Normally, the distinction between the confessionally Reformed is just that confessional. Meaning the Continental Reformed (Primarily Dutch as we really don't have many Swiss or German Reformed Denominations anymore) follow as their summary of Scripture's teaching and secondary standard The Three Forms of Unity (Heidelberg Catechism, Belgic Confession and The Canons of Dort) and Presbyterians have the Westminster Confession of Faith and Larger and Shorter Catechisms. There are some differences but in the main, we are all one big 'somewhat' happy family.

Historically, the Continental Reformed (With the exception of Geneva) after the Reformation culled their adherence to the Liturgical Calendar down to what are known as the 5 Evangelical Feasts including only; Christmas, Good Friday, Easter, Ascension, and Pentecost. The Church in Scotland (Presbyterians) eliminated all but Lord's Day observances. So, the strictest amongst Presbyterians will not even celebrate Christmas or Easter. However, the only denomination that I am aware of that doesn't currently allow for liberty on this issue is the Free Presbyterian Church of Scotland (not to be confused with the Free Church of Scotland or the Free Church of Scotland (Continuing) or the Free Presbyterian Church of Ulter/US.) In the FPCS denomination celebrating either would be an area for which one could/would be open for church discipline. Originally all Presbyterians believed this.

Today, in the conservative or Traditional denominations the observance varies. But none (other than FPCS) I am aware of make it a matter of discipline. As for my denomination we, have no special services, no decorations ect. Most likely the Pastor will just continue preaching through what ever book he has been preaching through, so basically there will be no corporate or public celebrations. (This would be to burden the conscience of a brother and be a breach of liberty.) But, people in their homes do what their conscience dictates. I have numerous picture-Christmas cards on my refrigerator from families in my congregation.

As for the PCUSA and the RCA well... what can I say both long ago, from our perspective, left the Reservation. (Yet, both still have "some" conservative Reformed pastors and congregations and internal organizations/groups that are trying to call them "back")

The difference between the Traditional R&Ps and the Mainline R&Ps is Grand Canyon-esque. But rest assured that what is now the PCUSA does not in the grand scheme of time have a long history of such observances, and while the RCA has a history of the 5 Evangelical Feasts, here you should note the conspicuous absence of Lent.

A good rule of thumb is that small R&P denoms are more likely to be more conservative, that is, in general to be discerned in the classic sense of "conserving' the ways of old; and large R&P denoms are not. Of course the PCUSA is hemorrhaging people and congregations as from the Carotid or pushing them out with the PSI of a Fire hose!

This is a link to an association of those that would be traditional (But certainly varying on many specifics)

http://www.naparc.org/

EDITED TO ADD:

For our a more International Flavor here is a International link to more conservative denoms ...

http://www.icrconline.com/members.html

The CRC -Christian Reformed Church- was a NAPARC member for a number of years but was their membership was suspended a few years back.

Thank you George. I grew-up in a Presbyterian church of some flavour, didn't know that there were so many. My mom just referred to it as Presbyterian.

[George Wallace]

However most Dutch denoms do not sing acappella.

And this is the strangest part for me. Because, both Scripturally and historically I believe it is much easier to prove the case for acappella worship than it is to prove the case for EP. Christians of all stripes and denoms throughout the ages have agreed on acappella singing, E.Orthodox, Spurgeon, Wesley and Presbyterians and (some or most Dutch) just to name a few. Most believe it was to Judaize to have instruments in worship, as we have no commandment to use instruments in NT worship and they believed that all OT commandments for instruments were part of the Ceremonial Law thus instruments in worship would be in the same category as sacrifices. It is less obvious that "Spiritual Psalms, Spiritual hynms, and Spiritual songs" all reference the Psalter.

[George Wallace]

Thank you George. I grew-up in a Presbyterian church of some flavour, didn't know that there were so many. My mom just referred to it as Presbyterian.

Trust me this is all recently acquired knowledge for me too! Until about 5-6 years ago I thought there was only one Presbyterian Church and Presbyterian was synonymous with Liberal

[Paul DeBaufer]

Trust me this is all recently acquired knowledge for me too! Until about 5-6 years ago I thought there was only one Presbyterian Church and Presbyterian was synonymous with Liberal

I didn't know the liberal part until the last year or two.

[Hans Deventer]

Most believe it was to Judaize to have instruments in worship, as we have no commandment to use instruments in NT worship and they believed that all OT commandments for instruments were part of the Ceremonial Law thus instruments in worship would be in the same category as sacrifices.

That's quite a stretch, to say the least.

[Hans Deventer]

As for a RESTRICTION to the Psalms, I guess one man’s RESTRICTION is another’s LIBERTY. Certainly, this has been discussed before, but for us with the understanding of the Regulative Principle of Worship (God ordains the method of His worship - not man. Only that which is revealed by God in Scripture can be used as an element of Worship), that having man-made songs in worship would inflict harm on a brothers conscience and be contrary to Christian Liberty. (Among many other reasons for omission.)

I thought about this last night (couldn't sleep for a while).

If people want to stick to the canon when it comes to the content of our worship, I guess they should also stick to reading the Scriptures and avoid preaching and man made prayers. If, on the other hand, the church believes itself to be able to discern proper theology from bad theology, it becomes possible to have people write and preach new sermons, pray new prayers and write new songs.

I guess it comes down to what we believe about the Holy Spirit and the question how He still wants to work among us. Without opening up the canon to new parts of Scripture (and I agree we should not), we can still recognize that some new sermons, prayers, songs are more inspired by the Holy Spirit than others. If we believe He still works through sermons and prayers and in fact liturgy in general, it seems odd if not downright inconsistent to restrict our singing to the Psalms. We are to sing Him a new song, as the Psalms themselves (!) command us.

It also seems to me we are to test the spirits (1 John 4:1). That goes for preachers, teachers, prophets, worship leaders, songs, and pretty much anything that happens in a church. So you guys worry about error when it comes to almost anything that happens in church, but you're just too scared when it comes to the content of what you sing to even try?
And you reject God's ordained method of worship in the OT? You don't dance in church? The NT says very little about modes of worship, the OT does. If you believe Scripture is more important than tradition, there you go. You cannot just throw that away as meaningless.

Jesus says we are to "worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks". That seems to be the heart of the matter to God. Which, I would dare to say, is the consistent theme of OT and NT. He simply doesn't care about anything else.

Bottom line, I just see human preference in what you describe. No problem, that's what we all do, but be honest about it.

[John Kennedy]

As I was marking tomorrow's bulletin for the organist, this caught my eye - I thought of its relevance to this thread:

PRAYER OF CONFESSION (unison)
'Out of the depths I cry to you, O Lord. Lord, hear my voice! If you, O Lord, should mark iniquities, Lord, who couild stand? But there is forgiveness with you, so that you may be revered. I wait for the Lord, my soul waits, and in his word I hope.
(silent prayers of confession)
In your great mercy, forgive our falling short of your intentions and free us from any self-centeredness that we may choose you will and follow your commandments of love through Jesus Christ , our Lord. Amen
DECLARATION OF PARDON
RESPONSE (sung)
The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases! His mercies never come to an end.
They are new every morning....Great is thy faithfulness, O Lord.
Great is thy faithfulness.