Nazarene Moorings

[Mike Schutz]

I wonder your reaction to this statement:


A local Church of the Nazarene that does not walk alongside the "least of these," ministering to the marginalized in its own community, has lost its way, regardless of its theological proclamations, polity, or worship style.

[Dale Cozby]

Who gets to decide when that local Church has failed to "walk alongside the least"? should that be the General Church Board? the GS? the DS? the DAB? The home Mission dept? The Pastor? The local board?

I suggest it is often easier to condemn in others what we do not see in ourselves.
Should the poor church be condemned for NOT taking food from its mouth and giving it to others while the rich church gives of its abundance yet has plenty to spare?
Which church received gave and which church received Jerusalem or Rome? Should Rome have passed judgment on Jerusalem for failing to provide for thier flock and the needy around them?

I just think we ought to pray for our sister churches that seem to be struggling to find its way or its means. Sometimes it isn't the way that is lost. It is just the means they are lacking.

I would love to have an ESL teacher AND a SSL teacher. But I need someone who can do that. Someone willing AND able. We may have teh desire but no means. We may see the need but have not the means. Pray that the Lord will send the workers into the harvest.

[Peggy Gray]

I was going to agree with the statement, as a worthwhile lens through which to view and evaluate ourselves, but now I don't dare.

[Mike Schutz]

To clarify - the quote is mine.

It is not meant to be adversarial, but prophetic. As I read the documents of our founding, I continue to be struck both by the explicit and implicit understanding that the Church of the Nazarene was uniquely called, not only to proclaim "scriptural holiness," but to do so through word and action in the midst of the worst of human suffering. It was understood that it was the poor in our society who were the target audience of our calling.

[Craig Laughlin]

I wonder your reaction to this statement:


A local Church of the Nazarene that does not walk alongside the "least of these," ministering to the marginalized in its own community, has lost its way, regardless of its theological proclamations, polity, or worship style.

It is spot on. - Given the Biblical mandate I'm not sure that this is even controversial. - That being said I think Dale's point could have validity if the larger political structure of the church decided to make some sort of "rule" as to what this looked like.

Walking alongside the least of these looks very different based on the church and the community. When I was in urban KC it looked very different than in a church in suburban Seattle. A church unwilling (no such thing as unable in my opinion) to come alongside the least of these would raise serious questions about the spirituality of the church.

[Paul DeBaufer]

I will agree with the statement with one alteration. I would exchange CotN for any Christian church.

ETA: CotN history and beginnings are of a church for the least of these, so one that fails to minister to the margfinalized within its community steps outside CotN tradition, as well.

[Ed DiSante]

Couldn't agree more Mike

[Dale Cozby]

Perhaps Craig is right that it is never a matter of unable and it is always a matter of unwilling. That is if we look at a bigger picture...

Suppose the other chruches didn't give to Jerusalem. Jerusalem had the willingness, but not the means. The other churches had the means and provided for them what they needed. Likewise, suburban churches that are big and strong and well provided for in means ought to be willing to help those smaller inner city churches in the places where the means is weak but the need is great. And on a grander scale as sister churches help at the local level so our great and wealthy nation of churches has the means to make a huge difference around the world where means is limited but the spirit is abundant. How much can we accomplish here with $500 but how far will that go in Bangladesh or India to cming alongside the marginalized?

A church needs to have the Way and the Means. Pray not just for the Way to be clear but also the Means to be clear as well.

[Nate Pruitt]

I have discussed this on multiple occasions, Mike, at dinner tables and in small groups whether at my church or with fellow Nazarene pastors. I am greatly encouraged by churches that are still reaching out to those with great need, and there are many Nazarene churches that do this in one way or another, but I have been disheartened to see some congregations "follow the money" to remove their church from a community because a few lofty members lived in a well to do area and seek to have the church in their area. There is a distinct pain, and I have definitely winced from it, hearing of vacating the very places that early church fathers like Bresee, McClurkan and more would have made the central place of ministry. In such instances it does seem that a CotN has either abandoned the early stance of the denomination, or have become willfully unaware of what we were to better serve a current agenda.

As Dale mentions, helping those who have the Way to minister (access) the poor when a church has the Means to enable it is very worthwhile. Rather than creating a vacuum where a church had been it's always nice to see a congregation that is willing to move into a new space while leaving those who long to continue the ministry where they are to continue with some means by which to continue that work. It's always a blessing to see beyond the local congregation to the larger work of the Church.

[Wilson Deaton]

IA local Church of the Nazarene that does not walk alongside the "least of these," ministering to the marginalized in its own community, has lost its way, regardless of its theological proclamations, polity, or worship style.

I concur!

Wilson

[Mike Schutz]

As a corollary, I refuse to believe that it is not possible to have the rich and the poor in the same worshipping congregation. I say this, not because there are not challenges, but because the Holy Spirit can span difference of wealth in the same way that the Spirit spans all other differences.

[George Wallace]

I wonder your reaction to this statement:


A local Church of the Nazarene that does not walk alongside the "least of these," ministering to the marginalized in its own community, has lost its way, regardless of its theological proclamations, polity, or worship style.

Mike,
Craig has stated that this looks different in different ministerial, congregational, or geographical contexts, can you provide a definition of what you are specifically referring to by "walk alongside" and "ministering to..."?

I realize this has to do specifically with Naz moorings, but Paul has presented that is has implication for "any" or presumably "all" Churches, at any rate I promise to tread lightly.

I ask, with a specific context in mind. In the height of the Modernist-Fundamentalist controversy 1920-30s J. Greshem Machen was excommunicated from what is now the PCUSA and ended up founding the Orthodox Presbyterian Church and Westminster Seminary. One of the initial sparks that became a flame revolved around the question; What is/was the role of missions?

Specifically, this forerunner of the PCUSA had changed direction and subordinated Gospel Preaching and Proclamation (Almost into non-existence) and focused most efforts on temporal needs, education, food clothes, shelter, ect (again almost to the exclusion of preaching the Gospel in and effort to convert souls.)

Machen eventually set up an independent board of foreign missions and this is what he was tried for.

This is the context from which I am asking you to define your terms.

Thanks
George

[Nate Pruitt]

I'll jump in real quick to say that historically speaking the missions of Bresee and McClurkan (as well as others) that became some of the early locations of the Nazarene church were based on two-fold ministry. To meet needs and deny the Gospel, or to ignore needs, but try to preach the Gospel is the sort of false dichotomy that will ruin any church/denomination. If the Church is all talk without action, or all action without explanation then one thing is true- it isn't actually doing the full work of the Church for it is failing to function as the Body of Christ.

[George Wallace]

I'll jump in real quick to say that historically speaking the missions of Bresee and McClurkan (as well as others) that became some of the early locations of the Nazarene church were based on two-fold ministry. To meet needs and deny the Gospel, or to ignore needs, but try to preach the Gospel is the sort of false dichotomy that will ruin any church/denomination. If the Church is all talk without action, or all action without explanation then one thing is true- it isn't actually doing the full work of the Church for it is failing to function as the Body of Christ.

The issue at hand in the history I briefly described would fit into the latter category of your statement above.

In 1932 the Presbyterian Board of Foreign Missions took an ambiguous position in regard to a theologically liberal report on missions, a decision that provided conservatives in the denomination further ammunition when one of the denomination's most prominent missionaries, the author Pearl Buck, endorsed the document as "masterly statement" and labeled traditional notions of salvation "superstitious." The following year, J. Gresham Machen, a theologically conservative intellectual, was most instrumental in creating the Independent Board for Presbyterian Foreign Missions. Interpreting the existence of the new board as a direct challenge to its denominational authority, the Presbyterian church brought the members of its board to trial—although Machen was never given the opportunity to defend his actions. In March 1935, the members of the Independent Board were found guilty and suspended from the ministry.[2] In 1936, fundamentalists less concerned than Machen with the Board's Presbyterian identity, ousted Machen as president and installed "a minister of a nondenominational church."[3]

When one of your leading missionaries says "Salvation is superstitious..." you got a problem...!

[Billy Cox]

It is not meant to be adversarial, but prophetic.

That distinction is typically not perceived by those on the receiving end of the prophesy. You don't think that Israel killed the prophets because of their bad fashion sense, do you?

[John Reilly]

Yes. As I reflect on ministry and in those times I take to reflect on the church in mission, a mooring that I consider is the "walk along side the least of these."

[Dennis M. Scott]

I wonder your reaction to this statement:


A local Church of the Nazarene that does not walk alongside the "least of these," ministering to the marginalized in its own community, has lost its way, regardless of its theological proclamations, polity, or worship style.

So, what's a church to do? A local church that begins among the poor, and does "it's job" well, will experience changed values, redemption and lift, and her people will move on. It is very difficult for the next generation to revert and minister to the group their parents left. The third generation is more likely to be free to respond to perceived needs, and frequently among the very group in which they originated. Seems like each generation needs new local churches. An older church can often respond as they are able, which sometimes is different than the ability of a first generation church. We all need everybody: old churches and new are still various members of the same Body.

[Nate Pruitt]

So, what's a church to do? A local church that begins among the poor, and does "it's job" well, will experience changed values, redemption and lift, and her people will move on. It is very difficult for the next generation to revert and minister to the group their parents left. The third generation is more likely to be free to respond to perceived needs, and frequently among the very group in which they originated. Seems like each generation needs new local churches. An older church can often respond as they are able, which sometimes is different than the ability of a first generation church. We all need everybody: old churches and new are still various members of the same Body.

The intriguing thing about this to me has been the eventual season of abandonment that tends to happen. Those who are blessed begin to accumulate rather than pour out these blessings as a testimony and continuance of the provision and goodness of God begun in them. There seems to be a theological gap in the midst of that from the teachings of Christ to a different mindset. Such things are not limited to the Church, though. Most inner-city business development programs never do provide much income or job opportunity to the inner-city because those who complete such programs quickly move their businesses, along with their households, to different (better) locations. There's a real, "What was good for me isn't good for you" thought process. Those who are the beneficiaries of great outpourings of love to see life change have spent so much time thinking about how they wanted out that when the chance comes they leave.

[Dennis M. Scott]

The intriguing thing about this to me has been the eventual season of abandonment that tends to happen. Those who are blessed begin to accumulate rather than pour out these blessings as a testimony and continuance of the provision and goodness of God begun in them. There seems to be a theological gap in the midst of that from the teachings of Christ to a different mindset. Such things are not limited to the Church, though. Most inner-city business development programs never do provide much income or job opportunity to the inner-city because those who complete such programs quickly move their businesses, along with their households, to different (better) locations. There's a real, "What was good for me isn't good for you" thought process. Those who are the beneficiaries of great outpourings of love to see life change have spent so much time thinking about how they wanted out that when the chance comes they leave.

Intriguing, and often discouraging. Twenty years ago, we worked with "Christian Economic Coalition", an organization that helped inner city people begin cooperatives committed to maintaining economic stability in the central city, as well as providing jobs for individuals who often experience difficulty finding long term employment. Another objective was for the white "do gooders" to transition leadership in the organization to "indigenous" workers. We used a model from the Basques in Mondragon, Spain. The organization no longer exists, having fallen apart shortly after the originators relinquished direction. We had strong funding, a great business plan, and a good model. The vision seemed to die in the transition to the "next generation."

Kinda like many urban churches that relocate shortly after the charter members have all died. It isn't a simple issue. It's demise was not due to lack of money, which usually is decried as a reason for failure. Ours was a multi-million dollar project.



Evaluation

[John Kennedy]

That distinction is typically not perceived by those on the receiving end of the prophesy. You don't think that Israel killed the prophets because of their bad fashion sense, do you?

No, some of 'em had 'interpersonal relational skills' that were about as tattered as their clothing - they really didn't play well with others.

[Billy Cox]

Intriguing, and often discouraging. Twenty years ago, we worked with "Christian Economic Coalition", an organization that helped inner city people begin cooperatives committed to maintaining economic stability in the central city, as well as providing jobs for individuals who often experience difficulty finding long term employment. Another objective was for the white "do gooders" to transition leadership in the organization to "indigenous" workers. We used a model from the Basques in Mondragon, Spain. The organization no longer exists, having fallen apart shortly after the originators relinquished direction. We had strong funding, a great business plan, and a good model. The vision seemed to die in the transition to the "next generation."

Kinda like many urban churches that relocate shortly after the charter members have all died. It isn't a simple issue. It's demise was not due to lack of money, which usually is decried as a reason for failure. Ours was a multi-million dollar project.

Leadership succession is complicated. If the first generation does not begin with succession in mind, it probably won't happen when the time comes.

[Rich Schmidt]

Leadership succession is complicated. If the first generation does not begin with succession in mind, it probably won't happen when the time comes.

It's complicated even when the first generation plans for it from the beginning. It's typically just not easy. Period.

[Rich Schmidt]

I wonder your reaction to this statement:


A local Church of the Nazarene that does not walk alongside the "least of these," ministering to the marginalized in its own community, has lost its way, regardless of its theological proclamations, polity, or worship style.

I agree... with the understanding that it's going to look different from one church to the next, since our communities and congregations are all different, with different needs, resources, gifts, opportunities, etc.

[Dennis M. Scott]

Leadership succession is complicated. If the first generation does not begin with succession in mind, it probably won't happen when the time comes.

In the case of the coalition, the transition was part of our bylaws.

[Billy Cox]

In the case of the coalition, the transition was part of our bylaws.

I don't know anything about the situation, but I wonder whether the bylaws failed to anticipate the level of indigenous resources that would be needed for the prescribed transition to succeed. That it failed so soon after transition seems to be evidence.

[Roy Richardson]

I wonder your reaction to this statement:


A local Church of the Nazarene that does not walk alongside the "least of these," ministering to the marginalized in its own community, has lost its way, regardless of its theological proclamations, polity, or worship style.

Agreed, as long as you aren't prescriptive in how that walking is to take place. Shelters, kitchens, pantries, job centers, thrift stores, afterschool tutoring centers, daycare, AA host and many other things are all valuable options.

[Dennis M. Scott]

I don't know anything about the situation, but I wonder whether the bylaws failed to anticipate the level of indigenous resources that would be needed for the prescribed transition to succeed. That it failed so soon after transition seems to be evidence.

Truth be known, there were too many "do gooder" priorities. For some reason, others in leadership were committed to transitioning leadership onto one ethnic minority group. The coalition was comprised of several different minority groups. My personal experience has been limited to a few dozen urban churches and settings in only three major eastern cities. That experience has been, however, that a variety of ethnic groups have responded to anglo leadership, but they haven't subsequently responded to subsequent minority leaders. They usually have hung around, but they have stopped thriving. I am able to think of a couple exceptions outside my involvement. I absolutely don't like how that sounds, but sometimes parody trumps thriving.

[Ryan Plott]

Coming in incredibly late to the conversation. My reaction is that this person values the model of church as servant over church as herald, institution, or mystical communion. I think the speaker would probably feel a great need for the church to speak and be active to the contemporary world and give the world a concrete mission in the 21st century to overcome its own ego and lessen human misery.

I would appreciate elaboration on the concepts behind an emphasis on service, scriptural backing that emphasizes service over the other tasks of the church mentioned,(preferably with precedence in church history/thinkers also), and am wondering about the implications of validating the local church on its service to the community rather than its unique identity bestowed on it by God.

[Rich Schmidt]

Coming in incredibly late to the conversation. My reaction is that this person values the model of church as servant over church as herald, institution, or mystical communion. I think the speaker would probably feel a great need for the church to speak and be active to the contemporary world and give the world a concrete mission in the 21st century to overcome its own ego and lessen human misery.

I would appreciate elaboration on the concepts behind an emphasis on service, scriptural backing that emphasizes service over the other tasks of the church mentioned,(preferably with precedence in church history/thinkers also), and am wondering about the implications of validating the local church on its service to the community rather than its unique identity bestowed on it by God.

I think the point the (anonymous) speaker is making is specifically about local congregations of the Church of the Nazarene & our own unique heritage, calling, and identity. If you try to make it about churches in general (as you appear to be doing), it may still hold up... or it may not.

[Kevin Rector]

Agreed, as long as you aren't prescriptive in how that walking is to take place. Shelters, kitchens, pantries, job centers, thrift stores, afterschool tutoring centers, daycare, AA host and many other things are all valuable options.

Agreed, and also think it's important to note that often "walking with" the least of these has nothing to do with formal programming and everything to do with creating a culture where everyone is valued. Too often the only real (unstated) goal of Christian charitable programming is helping the Christians feel good about themselves, which makes it non-Christian charitable programming.

Furthermore, there are a bazillion programs that aim to help a lot of people just a little bit (food pantries, etc). However, often what seems to be most transformational is programs that help just a few people a whole lot. These tend to create relationships between the "haves" and the "have-nots" and the relationships help bonds of love to form, and that creates meaningful transformation in everyone's lives (both the "haves" and the "have-nots").

[Cynthia Prentice]

As a corollary, I refuse to believe that it is not possible to have the rich and the poor in the same worshipping congregation. I say this, not because there are not challenges, but because the Holy Spirit can span difference of wealth in the same way that the Spirit spans all other differences.

I believe this was the key to the spread of Christianity in the Roman world...they had many religions that promised many things but they had never seen a Publican wash the feet of a slave. They had never seen love like that.

[Ryan Plott]

I think the point the (anonymous) speaker is making is specifically about local congregations of the Church of the Nazarene & our own unique heritage, calling, and identity. If you try to make it about churches in general (as you appear to be doing), it may still hold up... or it may not.

Sorry for the confusion. I meant it about the particular(hypothetical) church. Those would just be questions that I have after hearing a statement like that.