Does leaving the church = leaving the faith?

[Billy Cox]

I did a blog post a long time ago about how I go to church without getting angry. Sometimes doing so is easier than at other times. What helps me the most is when I have the feeling that I am in a position to change the things that offend me. I think many young people leave because they not only are consistently offended, but they have little or no hope of making a difference. That may go along with some of what you said about the older people being self-centered, but part of it has more to do with the impression that the older people can't possibly understand how a person can be, for one example out of many, both Christian and pro-choice, and are unwilling to listen to the thought processes of those who are. Even if Grandma Suzy is concerned enough about the spiritual well-being of her grandchildren that she's willing to give up the hymnal and work in children's church every week, is she going to take the bumper sticker they find so offensive off her car (or that same message off her lips)?

Interesting thing about generational selfishness... When young people are selfish, it looks downright sinful - delaying marriage and child-rearing, sowing their wild oats with sex, tattoos, piercings, alcohol, and all manner of behaviors that offend good church people. When old people are selfish, it looks downright missional - protecting legacy, safeguarding tradition, defending holiness, doing good things for their church friends while pouring contempt on their unchurched enemies.

[Jon Bemis]

Well, to be fair, Jon, I was in a church like Kyle described. It does suck the life out of young people. And everyone else as well.

I recognize that I've been fortunate in that regard. And few cases I had like that have now been gathered with their fathers.

[Greg Farra]

Well, I've been a member of two churches. The Lord saved me in the first one, despite having a number of people that were legalistic, bigoted and mean-spirited. God can work anywhere. The problem is that a few really bad eggs can give a church all kinds of trouble that drive people away.

[Peggy Gray]

I am tired of watching the "saints" in our churches ... pray that they will die quickly so they can go to heaven.

I pray that you will show grace to any saints who pray that prayer. No one WANTS to feel that way.

[Kyle Borger]

Regarding how I respond to those who lament life. I do show grace.

The purpose of my post was to give you some insight into what many youth think and feel. Don't you see how the conversation appears to the young?

If you attend a conservative church how many times have you heard the president bashed lately? Is that wholesome talk that Jesus would have engaged in?

Many of the prayer requests that the youth hear about seem to selfish because they are about something that person is experiencing. Loss of Job, health issues, etc...

There do seem to be many conversations about the way it used to be. If only it were the way it used to be... Why is your way so much better? Why can't it be good now? It sounds as if you are writing off the world the kids live in as evil and nonredeemable.

My experience is that a large percentage in our church sit. Am I wrong? Why is the American church not growing like on the mission field. Don't give me the excuse that they are different places. The cultures are different but it all boils down to relationships and the willingness to submit. Primarily America is more selfish and concerned about keeping what they have.

Jesus sacrificed everything for us and we are called to follow His example. The youth of today see some of the older generation doing just that and they are in awe of you, but the vast majority sit.

Have you sacrificed everything for Jesus? Are you willing to give up all of your possessions to save one life? Yeah, that's the point. Because so many are not willing it seems as if the church doesn't actually care about their generation. If the church did care the church would be doing everything possible to reach them. That doesn't mean using different music that might attract. It isn't about attract and the youth aren't that hung up in the music. They live for real relationships and authenticity. They want someone to care about them. To get dirty if necessary to find them.

The church talks about heaven and it comes across as our only hope is death. What hope is there for the living? I don't want heaven to come. I have too many people left to reach. I wasted too much time before and I need to catch up. In fact I am in heaven right now. I am in the center of God's will. I have the relationship with Jesus I am supposed to have. What more is there? Why not have eternal service to God? Why do I have to die and rest for eternity? No! Please don't make me stop! Please I must have more opportunities to reach others for Jesus. It is why I was created. It is what makes me alive! I don't want to die and drink tea all day. I want an eternity of working for God. I want an eternity of making a difference in peoples lives and demonstrating to them who Jesus is and what he can do in their lives. Please don't make me stop.

I do feel that the generation before is on an average selfish. How else did our country (USA) get to be the way it is? Who built most of the fences? Who built the subdivisions with the garages? Who built bigger and bigger houses? Which generation actually got to retire and travel the country if they want? The generation before that didn't really get a chance to retire. The generation before that planted almost all of the churches in the US Nazarene church. The generation before that got excited about church.

So do I want my dad's church or my grandpa's church? I'll take crazy grandpa who got a little emotional and liked to wave his hanky every time.

Generalizations again? Yep. Can't get away from them. I know there are those out there that don't fit, but remember perception is reality. You want to know why the youth are leaving? I'm trying to get you to see that the conversation and tone in church is all about us and very little about actually doing what Jesus did. That is the reason.

[Greg Farra]

The church is at present a colony of heaven, with the responsibility (as we say in The Lord’s Prayer) for bringing the life and rule of heaven to bear on Earth. -NT Wright




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[Dale Cozby]

If you attend a conservative church how many times have you heard the president bashed lately? Is that wholesome talk that Jesus would have engaged in?

If you attend a liberal church how many times did you hear president Bush bashed? How many in a liberal church are bashing Romney? It isn't a conservative exclusive club for baching, grumbling or complaining.

Many of the prayer requests that the youth hear about seem to selfish because they are about something that person is experiencing. Loss of Job, health issues, etc...

Not in my church. The only requests for prayers for self come from my young people(those in thier 20's) My elderly as for prayers of others....exclusively. Even when one is hurting phycially, someone else asks us to pray for them rather than they asking themselves.

My experience is that a large percentage in our church sit. Am I wrong?

Not in my church. The only sitters I have are the 20 somethings that can't seem to make it regularly enough to be counted on for anything. Between jobs, and the lake and parties and the like they seem to place Church as an option. The ones I have given responsibilites to some because I asked and some because they asked me have usually fizzled after a few times. Do I fault them. Not in the least they are young and IMMATURE.

Why is the American church not growing like on the mission field.

If you want my opinion, the number one reason is because first and foremost the government has usurped our task and call to help the poor, the orphan and the widow. As well as numerous other obstacles they place to caring for the sick, imprisioned etc. You need licenses and certifications, which means formal education in most cases, you must meet code and zoning regulations that oft are enforced on a whim by cities. (See how hard it is to run a half-way house anywhere.) The CotN used to have a number of orphanages, one where my dad was born in Peniel Texas. It closed, the Baptist one in Dallas that was once huge housing several hundred kids is a shell, now they work with the state to provide foster families that are state licensed. As a result we are marginalized by the socialist government tht has chosen to usurp our call to society and take on things it was not supposed to handle and it is bankrupting itself doing it while making us more and more irrelavant in the daily needs of society.

Don't give me the excuse that they are different places. The cultures are different but it all boils down to relationships and the willingness to submit. Primarily America is more selfish and concerned about keeping what they have.

I think that in places where a medical tam can have an impact on the local village before showing the Jesus film they are going to be more grateful and more willing to listen than anything we do here on the same scale. Do we send teams of medics out into our communities to meet peoples need? Would the government even permit such a thing for very long if we did? Do we have free education here or should we set up a school to teach kids that have no where to go to learn to read and write? Are we still using Sunday school to teach poor kids that can't go to school because they have to work all to read and write? No things have changed here but not so in the mission field. The church is relevant in those places impacting the daily needs of people.

Jesus sacrificed everything for us and we are called to follow His example. The youth of today see some of the older generation doing just that and they are in awe of you, but the vast majority sit.

But again you condemn them for sitting. Are you as a pastor giving them meaning work to to do? Have3 you as the leader come up with a plan to motive them? The government has sidelined much of our team effort to reach the community through regulation, usurping control, zoning, codes, required professional education, driving the cost up and the opportunity down. I see many of the older people saddened by not knowing what to do orhow to do it. You make it seem like they are all just lazy. Perhaps it is you who are in the way, you who are failing to lead them onto the field. Search your own sould Kyle before you settle on condemning your elders.

Have you sacrificed everything for Jesus? Are you willing to give up all of your possessions to save one life? Yeah, that's the point. Because so many are not willing it seems as if the church doesn't actually care about their generation. If the church did care the church would be doing everything possible to reach them. That doesn't mean using different music that might attract. It isn't about attract and the youth aren't that hung up in the music. They live for real relationships and authenticity. They want someone to care about them. To get dirty if necessary to find them.

Have you given up everything Kyle. Lead the way by example. How can they be expected to do something they have never seen modeled? As to the young people I question what you say about what they want. "real relationships" authenticity" and the like are the new catch phrases being bantied about in grow circles these days. So what is meant by these terms? Lay out what that looks like in terms of actions to take and instill those actions into your elders. If those actons don't come off as silly or absurd they will go with you. Wisdom may be in longer supply than passion with your older people.

PS. I used to lament my older people as well. Until I started seeing myself as the problem. Me the leader not leading them into fruitful life changing purpose.

[Hans Deventer]

If you want my opinion, the number one reason is because first and foremost the government has usurped our task and call to help the poor, the orphan and the widow.

Ah, that will work! I just see it before me. The Lord returns, asks what we have done, and we reply that we couldn't do a thing because of the government. I'm sure He'll fully understand. Of course there was nothing wrong with us, we just couldn't help it.

Instead of "the woman Thou gavest me" it is now "the government we ourselves elected". Yeah, that will fly.

[Greg Farra]

My observation is that we can't sterotype any group, particularily age-based ones. We can find good and bad in young,old, and in-between.

[Marsha Lynn]

So given all that ... when young adults walk away from the dated, messy, selfish, offensive church are they walking away from the faith represented by the church?

Rather than changing the question to why young adults are leaving, which has been discussed and can still be discussed in other threads, can we focus on the spiritual status/ministry needs of young adults who are currently outside the church but who may still count themselves as followers of Jesus Christ?

I'm watching young adults who were raised in the church and have (at least at one time) chosen the way of Christ for themselves now focus on relationships outside the church. If our church is too offensive/selfish/last-century/rigid/informal/whatever for them, and our best brow-beating of the "saints" hasn't fixed that, are there still ways we can continue to encourage "our" young adults in their walk with Christ?

Marsha

Regarding how I respond to those who lament life. I do show grace.

The purpose of my post was to give you some insight into what many youth think and feel. Don't you see how the conversation appears to the young?

If you attend a conservative church how many times have you heard the president bashed lately? Is that wholesome talk that Jesus would have engaged in?

Many of the prayer requests that the youth hear about seem to selfish because they are about something that person is experiencing. Loss of Job, health issues, etc...

There do seem to be many conversations about the way it used to be. If only it were the way it used to be... Why is your way so much better? Why can't it be good now? It sounds as if you are writing off the world the kids live in as evil and nonredeemable.

My experience is that a large percentage in our church sit. Am I wrong? Why is the American church not growing like on the mission field. Don't give me the excuse that they are different places. The cultures are different but it all boils down to relationships and the willingness to submit. Primarily America is more selfish and concerned about keeping what they have.

Jesus sacrificed everything for us and we are called to follow His example. The youth of today see some of the older generation doing just that and they are in awe of you, but the vast majority sit.

Have you sacrificed everything for Jesus? Are you willing to give up all of your possessions to save one life? Yeah, that's the point. Because so many are not willing it seems as if the church doesn't actually care about their generation. If the church did care the church would be doing everything possible to reach them. That doesn't mean using different music that might attract. It isn't about attract and the youth aren't that hung up in the music. They live for real relationships and authenticity. They want someone to care about them. To get dirty if necessary to find them.

The church talks about heaven and it comes across as our only hope is death. What hope is there for the living? I don't want heaven to come. I have too many people left to reach. I wasted too much time before and I need to catch up. In fact I am in heaven right now. I am in the center of God's will. I have the relationship with Jesus I am supposed to have. What more is there? Why not have eternal service to God? Why do I have to die and rest for eternity? No! Please don't make me stop! Please I must have more opportunities to reach others for Jesus. It is why I was created. It is what makes me alive! I don't want to die and drink tea all day. I want an eternity of working for God. I want an eternity of making a difference in peoples lives and demonstrating to them who Jesus is and what he can do in their lives. Please don't make me stop.

I do feel that the generation before is on an average selfish. How else did our country (USA) get to be the way it is? Who built most of the fences? Who built the subdivisions with the garages? Who built bigger and bigger houses? Which generation actually got to retire and travel the country if they want? The generation before that didn't really get a chance to retire. The generation before that planted almost all of the churches in the US Nazarene church. The generation before that got excited about church.

So do I want my dad's church or my grandpa's church? I'll take crazy grandpa who got a little emotional and liked to wave his hanky every time.

Generalizations again? Yep. Can't get away from them. I know there are those out there that don't fit, but remember perception is reality. You want to know why the youth are leaving? I'm trying to get you to see that the conversation and tone in church is all about us and very little about actually doing what Jesus did. That is the reason.

[Todd Erickson]

Speaking as somebody who was part of the Fostering community, there are very specific reasons why there are so many standard for orphanages, etc., and it's because of how much insane abuse has gone on in those facility in the name of "raising kids God's way".

However, Southern Children's Home in Morrelton is doing pretty well, and they're a Christian facility. So are Bethlehem house and Dorca's House here in Conway.

If the church knows that they need specific things in order to have specific ministries, maybe they need to be looking for church members who are willing to undertake the training to do that, and then pay for it as part of that mission. Count the cost, and then pay it.

Not complain that they can't just do whatever they want how they want it (and not count the cost for the lawsuits that will follow that...)

...

Our Pastor was preaching from John 14 yesterday about Jesus talking to his disciples about being the way, the truth, and the life, reassuring them that they were on the right path, that they had picked the right way.

A street preacher who was visiting us said that what he had found over his career that was most effective for reaching the lost wasn't a better stock of verses, but his ability to share his life with them.

We talked in Sunday School about unity in Love, and how Love brings things like Holiness and Justice with it.

Real love isn't feeling nice about things...it requires involvement in each other's lives, and caring, and compassion, and forgiveness.

If we don't model and practice these things in a way which really touch people in the church...can we really complain?

[Dale Cozby]

Ah, that will work! I just see it before me. The Lord returns, asks what we have done, and we reply that we couldn't do a thing because of the government. I'm sure He'll fully understand. Of course there was nothing wrong with us, we just couldn't help it.

Instead of "the woman Thou gavest me" it is now "the government we ourselves elected". Yeah, that will fly.

Hans, not being in the USA over the few decades you are not aware of the changes the church here has undergone in the nature of its ministry. It costs a lot more, takes more long term comittment from individuals etc to make many of these ministries run than it used to before Big Brother started taking care of us. Big brother is set up to operate everything for itself and Mega corporations to do it from a profit point of view.
Instead of providing food(other than just at the initial point of crisis, we help a person enroll in government food stamps(assuming they don't just do it themselves s it isn't that hard) Free housing, ok government puts homeless people at the top of the free housing list, we have to find a place (assuming teh government isn't going to interfere) for them live from our meager means cmpared to the vast and unlimited resources of tax dollars. Need an education turn to Uncle Sam again. He is the savior of us all...free public education, grants low cost loans all courtesy Uncle Sam. But what I see is them forcing the price up of education with the law of supply and demand creating more dependency on them.

We all sit around lamenting the churches irrelavancy and inauthenticness and condemning those who came before and those who are in leadership calling each other names, but Ben Burch is right. Government isn't our savior and I don't even think it is out friend. It self-exists for itself by enslaving its people in poverty or through taxation. I don't expect you to see it nor understand it Hans coming from where you come from. You come from a totally different viewpoint and your sense of always being right and having it all figured out will prevent seeing it any other way.

No one in the US is hungry..courtesy the US government. No one is uneducated courtesy government. No one is homeless unless by choice, courtesy the government. No one will die from a lack of emergncy medical care, courtesy the government. Orphaned? no problem government has that. Elderly and in need? No worries, government has your back. Disaster strikes? No problem FEMA to the rescue. There is no area of need in the US the levels of government isn't deep off into it AND telling others to want inline behind them to help including teh church. Yes we help, but we do so at the pleasure of the government.

Tell us about the size and scope of your local churches outreach into the daily lives of your community. Help us poor ignorant Americans understand the better way.

[Paul DeBaufer]

In the conversations I have had with young people who have left the church, or never really attended, is that they do continue to have faith in Jesus and God. Sure sometimes that faith gets a lil' dose of spirituality in general, yet not enough to render them apostate (better to be heretic and NOT apostate than orthodox and apostate, IMHO). They may not be strictly orthodox, but most I have spoken with are by no means apostate. They are just sick of the hypocrisy, the "believe exactly like I do" impression that they get, less from the elderly, from the middle-aged, their parents generation. They read the Bible and see Jesus' instructions to love, God and everybody else and they take Him seriously. They see an institutional church and its members that seem more interested in preserving what they have, in political conservatism, in spencerian economics, than in actually living like they really believe Jesus. Again, yes some of this comes from the elderly, but the biggest complaint concerns their parents generation, the biggest proponents of the perceived hypocrisy, the twisting the meaning of love. the idea that Jesus didn't really mean, "sell you property and give it to the poor," or "turn the other cheek," or the whole host of things listed in Matthew 25. The institutional church whether conservative or liberal where political ideology is more important than or married to the message of Jesus holds no interest to the young people I have talked to.

[Marsha Lynn]

In the conversations I have had with young people who have left the church, or never really attended, is that they do continue to have faith in Jesus and God. Sure sometimes that faith gets a lil' dose of spirituality in general, yet not enough to render them apostate. They may not be strictly orthodox, but most I have spoken with are by no means apostate. They are just sick of the hypocrisy, the "believe exactly like I do" impression that they get, less from the elderly, from the middle-aged, their parents generation. They read the Bible and see Jesus' instructions to love, God and everybody else and they take Him seriously. They see an institutional church and its members that seem more interested in preserving what they have, in political conservatism, in spencerian economics, than in actually living like they really believe Jesus. Again, yes some of this comes from the elderly, but the biggest complaint concerns their parents generation, the biggest proponents of the perceived hypocrisy, the twisting the meaning of love. the idea that Jesus didn't really mean, "sell you property and give it to the poor," or "turn the other cheek," or the whole host of things listed in Matthew 25. The institutional church whether conservative or liberal where political ideology is more important than or married to the message of Jesus holds no interest to the young people I have talked to.

So how can we who share those values continue to be the church to believers who can no longer tolerate what happens inside the walls of the church building?

[Paul DeBaufer]

So how can we who share those values continue to be the church to believers who can no longer tolerate what happens inside the walls of the church?

I don't know. I have had the several young people I've talked to express interest in what we are doing in small group, yet none have shown up. But for many Monday evenings are full. I know my group would love to have them, to hear their insights and even complaints. To be fair, the young adults I talk to live 30 miles or more from here. But, besides from having the occasional conversations, I don't know how to involve them.

[Todd Erickson]

1. Take church to them. Invest in small groups, accountable relationships, discipleship.

2. Make room for the organic inside of the institutional, so that they can coexist and inform each other.

3. Get away from the idea that the church is people using this building in this way, 20 years from now.

4. Admit that we've never had a golden age of church, each age has had it's issues, and contemplate how we can give todays' youth the authenticity they yearn for, especially given that it may never have actually existed before.

[Hans Deventer]

We all sit around lamenting the churches irrelavancy and inauthenticness and condemning those who came before and those who are in leadership calling each other names, but Ben Burch is right. Government isn't our savior and I don't even think it is out friend. It self-exists for itself by enslaving its people in poverty or through taxation. I don't expect you to see it nor understand it Hans coming from where you come from. You come from a totally different viewpoint and your sense of always being right and having it all figured out will prevent seeing it any other way.

Thank you for the kind remarks. But do you really understand what you are saying here? You guys are scared to death to BECOME like us. Which means, we're already worse! And I don't understand a government ruling our lives?

Sorry Dale, you can't have it both ways. Either you guys' government is already worse than ours and hence, you have nothing to fear of socialism, or it is the other way around and I understand better how it is to live under socialism than you do.

Tell us about the size and scope of your local churches outreach into the daily lives of your community. Help us poor ignorant Americans understand the better way.

If you're in any way serious (which your words seem to belie, but let's remain optimistic), I would recommend contacting pastor Stephen Overduin of our Rotterdam Church. His church has seen a huge change in this respect, from a close to dying middle class church in a multicultural neighbourhood with no contact with that neighbourhood to speak of, to one that is deeply involved in the community. PM me for his email address, knowing him, he's more than willing to share what he has learned through the years.

[Doug Ward]

I think it is time for me to be unpopular. I hate it when people use the word "institutional church." As soon as three people sit down and agree what time to meet and have a Bible Study the church is institutional. If 5 people pool their resources and then agree on where to give - again the church has just become institutional.

With that being said, I have the privilege of teaching at one of our colleges, and this is a discussion that comes up with some frequency. Here is how I address the issue.

First, there does need to be a reminder of what the "institutional" church has done. There needs to be a honest look at the hospitals, clinics, NGOs, and wide ranging work the church has done and is doing around the world to end disease, hunger, and alleviate suffering. Many of the young people I talk to also receive nice scholarships provided by the "institutional" church. Depending on the attitude, I have from time to time expressed my concern about their life, and added my hope they remain consistent with their beliefs. To further this wish, I have suggested that they go to the registrars office and surrender their scholarship money provided by the "institutional" church. Let's not cherry pick here. I might also remind people that a lot of people trudged to a factory every day, and worked in a steel mill, and gave every week so that schools could be built, churches provide a place of family, and aid stations opened around the world. You cannot even talk of an "institutional" church without really thinking about the thousands of people who did this, and do this every day.

To be frank, I do not know how you do the Christianity without the church. And as soon as two people meet to discuss an issue - it is institutional. I then try to challenge them to change the church. I tell them quite honestly that there is nothing more powerful, more appreciated than young adults who serve. it is invigorasting and energizing. I also apologize that the church is not better, but it is better than it used to be, and encourage them that I have been able to add my voice to the church in my little corner, and their voice will be heard as well. Yet their voice is only heard through involvement, prayer, and sacrifice.

We live in a world, especially in the west, where if everything is not just like I like it, well then, I will leave. I see much of this attitude at work at every level. My challenge for the young adult is that their generation do it better. But doing it better involves relationships - even with people who will see things differently. We just can't go it alone.

[Hans Deventer]

I think it is time for me to be unpopular. I hate it when people use the word "institutional church." As soon as three people sit down and agree what time to meet and have a Bible Study the church is institutional. If 5 people pool their resources and then agree on where to give - again the church has just become institutional.

Doug, I think what people really mean is facelessness. An institution sounds like a Kafka novel, like a system you can fight but never conquer. When 5 people meet and do something, people don't experience that as an institution. But when directives come down from some top guy far a way that nobody's ever seen, yeah, that's when people talk of an institution.

Another example, not sure if it works the same in the USA but here you can see that people tend to give more easily to a person they know than to an abstract World Evangelism Fund. It is way too faceless.

I know not all is bad, I'm part of it myself! But I understand the sentiment.

[Marsha Lynn]

I don't know. I have had the several young people I've talked to express interest in what we are doing in small group, yet none have shown up. But for many Monday evenings are full. I know my group would love to have them, to hear their insights and even complaints. To be fair, the young adults I talk to live 30 miles or more from here. But, besides from having the occasional conversations, I don't know how to involve them.

Thanks, Paul. I was beginning to figure out that the lack of response to my questions and continued fascination with the alternative question of why young adults are leaving the church was adding up to an "I don't know how to do ministry to those who leave" answer. Thanks for making the effort to respond. Obviously, we are not alone in having more questions than answers in this area.

2. Make room for the organic inside of the institutional, so that they can coexist and inform each other.

This has been my approach. For a while I thought I could carve out what I privately called a 'chwach" -- a church within a church -- where young adults would be insulated from the brunt of conservatism in the church. My efforts have yielded mixed results. One of the biggest challenges is doing ministry to young adults who have "drunk the koolaid" of conservatism while also making it a safe place for those who haven't. I end up looking like a heretic to the most conservative when I start questioning conservatism. Do I want to risk driving away the "good kids"? Also, after a while it became obvious that it wasn't healthy for us to look like a clique of people with little interaction with the rest of the church.

1. Take church to them. Invest in small groups, accountable relationships, discipleship.

I think that's the challenge I'm currently looking at. Being the parent of young adult children makes it a challenge to maintain a "peer" (i.e. organic, rather than hierarchical) relationship with their peers, but I'm doing my best. I have accidentally stumbled into some settings lately that put me in fellowship with young adults outside the church. The challenge is to find a way to "stumble" into such situations more often. Or to encourage the young adults who have stuck around and are still in relationship with those who have left to be intentional in encouraging their friends to continue to seek the face of God in their lives. And to approve the time they spend with people outside the church at the expense of further church involvement.

3. Get away from the idea that the church is people using this building in this way, 20 years from now.

4. Admit that we've never had a golden age of church, each age has had it's issues, and contemplate how we can give todays' youth the authenticity they yearn for, especially given that it may never have actually existed before.

Yea, even as I get older and realize that I miss many things our society has lost, I am reminding myself that we have also gained marvelous blessings in the place of those things and working at continuing to embrace the new.

[Doug Ward]

Doug, I think what people really mean is facelessness. An institution sounds like a Kafka novel, like a system you can fight but never conquer. When 5 people meet and do something, people don't experience that as an institution. But when directives come down from some top guy far a way that nobody's ever seen, yeah, that's when people talk of an institution.

Another example, not sure if it works the same in the USA but here you can see that people tend to give more easily to a person they know than to an abstract World Evangelism Fund. It is way too faceless.

I know not all is bad, I'm part of it myself! But I understand the sentiment.

Hans, I agree and good point! At the same time, this can become an easy way to sound cool. No real thought, just an easy excuse. In saying this, I do not mean to diminish those who with great thought struggle against a real issue that has impacted them. However, I do think that is the minority - anecdotally.

[Hans Deventer]

At the same time, this can become an easy way to sound cool. No real thought, just an easy excuse.

I agree. It's one of the reasons though I've tried to have a GS preach in our church, and succeeded a few times too. I wanted to give a face to the concept of HQ, and thus eliminate the excuse.

[Billy Cox]

Not in my church. The only requests for prayers for self come from my young people(those in thier 20's) My elderly as for prayers of others....exclusively. Even when one is hurting phycially, someone else asks us to pray for them rather than they asking themselves.

I see a fixation on prayer requests for distant relatives and co-workers far removed from the life of the group, as 'safe' requests. It takes far more courage to request prayer for oneself.

Not in my church. The only sitters I have are the 20 somethings that can't seem to make it regularly enough to be counted on for anything. Between jobs, and the lake and parties and the like they seem to place Church as an option. The ones I have given responsibilites to some because I asked and some because they asked me have usually fizzled after a few times. Do I fault them. Not in the least they are young and IMMATURE.

Consider the life experiences that tend to 'mature' us: getting married and having a first child. Given the fact that 20 somethings are increasingly delaying these experiences until well beyond age 30, what other experiences could mature them? I am relatively certain that disapproval and guilt aren't very effective at maturing, although they are very repellent.

[Todd Erickson]

My friend Jackie, who I recently got to come to our church with her husband, talks about how all of the churches she's been in want her to have kids, and want her to get together with groups of women to talk about raising and having kids. She'd rather be playing Halo, but that's not a choice, that's not appropriate.

[Dale Cozby]

Thank you for the kind remarks. But do you really understand what you are saying here? You guys are scared to death to BECOME like us. Which means, we're already worse! And I don't understand a government ruling our lives?

Yes you do understand government ruling your lives and have completely adjusted BUT what has happened? I don't live there so I just view it from afar, I see the church in Europe as irrelavant to daily life, dismissed by society, or else apostated, heretical or else held in contempt the culture. Which is where we are heading too in the USA. Just a decade or so behind you now.

If you're in any way serious (which your words seem to belie, but let's remain optimistic), I would recommend contacting pastor Stephen Overduin of our Rotterdam Church. His church has seen a huge change in this respect, from a close to dying middle class church in a multicultural neighbourhood with no contact with that neighbourhood to speak of, to one that is deeply involved in the community. PM me for his email address, knowing him, he's more than willing to share what he has learned through the years.

I would be very intersted in finding out how he is turning it around, who, where, what, how and why it is happening. Including all the obstacles he and his church have had to overcome to make it turn. Does our brother read english well enough to read through my poor typing skills? if so, I will search for him.

I see a fixation on prayer requests for distant relatives and co-workers far removed from the life of the group, as 'safe' requests. It takes far more courage to request prayer for oneself.

I see so many things wrong with your bolded statement I can't properly cover it all short of writing a chapter in a book. So I will just say I disagree. I am not sure a co-worker, next door neighbor, a son, daughter, sister, brother, or parent would be classified distant relative but OK if this is what your mind has conjured go with it. Simon asked for the apostle to pray for him too.

My friend Jackie, who I recently got to come to our church with her husband, talks about how all of the churches she's been in want her to have kids, and want her to get together with groups of women to talk about raising and having kids. She'd rather be playing Halo, but that's not a choice, that's not appropriate.

Well she would do well in my 20's group. Halo is a favorite at the LAN parties held in church and members homes. Of course most of the girls/ladies are more into other games than Halo as the guys get rather intense.

[Todd Erickson]

Jackie is in her mid 30's, Dale. I doubt she'd fit in with your 20's group so well. :P

[Billy Cox]

An interesting corollary to this question:

"What are we supposed to do when the church leaves us?"

[Marsha Lynn]

An interesting corollary to this question:

"What are we supposed to do when the church leaves us?"

Leaves how? Moves physically? Moves spiritually? Falls in love with a different demographic?

Sorry to be dense, but I don't understand the question.

[Ryan Scott]

I'm very intrigued by this idea that the institutional church has somehow morphed the gospel into moral theraputic deism - mainly that God wants us all to be nice to each other and get along and that the most important thing in life is to be happy.

A friend posted this brief definition of the basic tenets of the idea today on facebook:

1. A god exists who created and ordered the world and watches over human life on earth.
2. God wants people to be good, nice, and fair to each other, as taught in the Bible and by most world religions.
3. The central goal of life is to be happy and to feel good about oneself.
4. God does not need to be particularly involved in one's life except when God is needed to resolve a problem.
5. Good people go to heaven when they die.


Scott Daniels preached an amazing series of sermons around this topic almost two years ago now - I've repeated his line here and other places many time, but it continues to fuel my understanding of ecclesiology and worship.

He said, "Our children are pleading with us to give them something worth dying for... and we refuse to do it."


Give all of this, what incentive is there to remain connected to the institutional church? I can be happy elsewhere and it seems like there's more important things going on outside the church than inside.

[Gene Tatsch]

...what incentive is there to remain connected to the institutional church? I can be happy elsewhere and it seems like there's more important things going on outside the church than inside.

Exactly the issue in many situations.

[Hans Deventer]

I'm very intrigued by this idea that the institutional church has somehow morphed the gospel into moral theraputic deism - mainly that God wants us all to be nice to each other and get along and that the most important thing in life is to be happy.

Which is why I pretty much always connect to suffering and pain in my sermons. And when I read Rom 8, it seems to me that "in all things God works for the good of those who love him" has as goal "to be conformed to the image of his Son". And we all know what He had to go through, and how even He "learned obedience from what he suffered".
.

[Todd Erickson]

I think that part of the problem we run into with this kind of conversation is that we want to assign blame, at some level.

"it's those spoiled, entitled kids, not willing to engage in the same church we do". "it's those old people, who only want things their way."

What if it's actually a working of the Spirit that the established church refuses to engage with?

I see churches engaging in revivals, highly emotional prayer services, going for charasmatic gimmee's, all in an attempt to restore some kind of fire that's going to change things.

What if the change is already here, but because it doesn't look like all of the changes we've had before (with the altar and the sawdust and the camp hymns) we won't see it?

[Marsha Lynn]

I'm very intrigued by this idea that the institutional church has somehow morphed the gospel into moral theraputic deism - mainly that God wants us all to be nice to each other and get along and that the most important thing in life is to be happy.

...

Given all of this, what incentive is there to remain connected to the institutional church? I can be happy elsewhere and it seems like there's more important things going on outside the church than inside.

My understanding of MTD is that it is the spiritual mindset of typical young "Christian" Americans outside the church. There is no need for such people to go to church because their faith requires nothing of them beyond being "good," in whatever way they define good. And you don't have to go sit in a stuffy church every week in order to be good in that worldview.

I would say that for those adhering to MTD religion, leaving the church does indeed correlate with leaving the faith. Such people are rejecting the picture drawn by the church of a God who wants to be involved in the details of our lives. They are no longer interested in hearing God's voice in their lives and are adopting a lifestyle that allows them to tune out that voice.

I wonder what percentage of those leaving fall into that category (as opposed to leaving the church out of concern for their spiritual health). And, of those who do, I wonder how much of their push-back is actually against the in-your-face demanding voice of the church rather than the quieter but more compelling voice of the Holy Spirit. Full response to the latter is much more costly, but also much more satisfying and exciting.

I made a little personal not-so-funny joke Sunday morning. My pastor produces handouts with blank spaces to fill in during the sermon. This past week's included two lines:

__________ doesn't seem to have the answers for us.

__________ has not saved us from a melancholy depression.

I was looking ahead and filled in the first line with "[American] Christianity" and the second with "The church". As it turns out, surprisingly enough, those were not the correct answers, but I wonder how many people both in and out of the church would answer them as I did. (I neglected to write down the correct answers and don't remember the first one. The second was wealth.)

The challenge for the church is to somehow reveal the vibrant and ever-challenging Kingdom of God rather than allowing it to remain obscured by a stuffy and often offensive institution that sometimes seems to have no higher goal than to consume one's resources -- time, money, volunteer hours, etc.

Marsha

[Kyle Borger]

If you attend a liberal church how many times did you hear president Bush bashed? How many in a liberal church are bashing Romney? It isn't a conservative exclusive club for baching, grumbling or complaining.

Not in my church. The only requests for prayers for self come from my young people(those in thier 20's) My elderly as for prayers of others....exclusively. Even when one is hurting phycially, someone else asks us to pray for them rather than they asking themselves.

Not in my church. The only sitters I have are the 20 somethings that can't seem to make it regularly enough to be counted on for anything. Between jobs, and the lake and parties and the like they seem to place Church as an option. The ones I have given responsibilites to some because I asked and some because they asked me have usually fizzled after a few times. Do I fault them. Not in the least they are young and IMMATURE.

If you want my opinion, the number one reason is because first and foremost the government has usurped our task and call to help the poor, the orphan and the widow. As well as numerous other obstacles they place to caring for the sick, imprisioned etc. You need licenses and certifications, which means formal education in most cases, you must meet code and zoning regulations that oft are enforced on a whim by cities. (See how hard it is to run a half-way house anywhere.) The CotN used to have a number of orphanages, one where my dad was born in Peniel Texas. It closed, the Baptist one in Dallas that was once huge housing several hundred kids is a shell, now they work with the state to provide foster families that are state licensed. As a result we are marginalized by the socialist government tht has chosen to usurp our call to society and take on things it was not supposed to handle and it is bankrupting itself doing it while making us more and more irrelavant in the daily needs of society.

I think that in places where a medical tam can have an impact on the local village before showing the Jesus film they are going to be more grateful and more willing to listen than anything we do here on the same scale. Do we send teams of medics out into our communities to meet peoples need? Would the government even permit such a thing for very long if we did? Do we have free education here or should we set up a school to teach kids that have no where to go to learn to read and write? Are we still using Sunday school to teach poor kids that can't go to school because they have to work all to read and write? No things have changed here but not so in the mission field. The church is relevant in those places impacting the daily needs of people.

But again you condemn them for sitting. Are you as a pastor giving them meaning work to to do? Have3 you as the leader come up with a plan to motive them? The government has sidelined much of our team effort to reach the community through regulation, usurping control, zoning, codes, required professional education, driving the cost up and the opportunity down. I see many of the older people saddened by not knowing what to do orhow to do it. You make it seem like they are all just lazy. Perhaps it is you who are in the way, you who are failing to lead them onto the field. Search your own sould Kyle before you settle on condemning your elders.

Have you given up everything Kyle. Lead the way by example. How can they be expected to do something they have never seen modeled? As to the young people I question what you say about what they want. "real relationships" authenticity" and the like are the new catch phrases being bantied about in grow circles these days. So what is meant by these terms? Lay out what that looks like in terms of actions to take and instill those actions into your elders. If those actons don't come off as silly or absurd they will go with you. Wisdom may be in longer supply than passion with your older people.

PS. I used to lament my older people as well. Until I started seeing myself as the problem. Me the leader not leading them into fruitful life changing purpose.

Let me set the record straight.

My purpose here was to speak for the youth. Although I am not retired I am more a part of the old generation than I am the young. Perspective is reality for them. My attempt was to challenge you to consider what our conversations sound like. Yes, I mixed in some of my youthful desires to serve, but in many ways I am a part of the generation they see as a failure.

There are many of the older generation who have sacrificed more than the youth can ever imagine. But how do they know that when the conversations are no longer there. In many churches we have separated everyone by age group. It is like we are saying that neither have anything to say to the other. At the same time I have heard many many times that an older person has retired which apparently means retired from ministry as well. So they sit. I'm sorry. I am sure you will correct me. They also have coffee and potlucks and fundraisers and things like that. But how many are involved in mentoring the youth? The excuse is usually that the youth won't want to listen. They may say that at first to keep up appearances, but trust me they are dying to have someone show them the way.

I understand the government changing our environment, but that isn't the cause. It changes our approach, but it doesn't change the cause.

Should I blame the youth? Who is in charge of teaching the next generation? Am I to expect that the youth are supposed to be born with manners, with expectations of service to the church, with a built in desire to be a part of church? I simply can't get around the fact that our church stopped mentoring and discipling people and when that happened our growth seems to have stopped.

I am at the tail end of a generation that seems to understand church based on what we do or don't do. Growing up church was all about following the manual for me. I had it memorized and loved to explain to my fellow teens that they weren't obeying the church. No wonder they didn't like me. It has taken God time, but He has broken me of that.

I look at our church founders and I am inspired. That is an older generation. Why did the generation after them find their methods to be less desirable? Church planting stopped. Churches grew bigger and fancier. We stopped being as involved as much with the "needy" of society. We grew up and become more proper and dignified. I like the messy model where everyone is involved in ministry and involved in the lives of those who are really messed up and because of that sometimes we get nailed and we get blamed for things and sometimes there is turmoil in our church because the crackhead is causing problems. No. I have never been a part of that church. But I can dream.

I have given up everything. Ok, at least I am trying. I moved to a different state away from family. I left a good paying job. I did a short sale on my house. I would have sold my motorhome but it is worth less than the loan I owe and the payments on the current loan are less than the payments on the difference. Right now cash flow is more important. I gave up health insurance. My family lived with another pastor for 5 months because we moved to a new town with no jobs and no housing. We had no savings either. It was the hardest thing I have ever done, but also the best. I work for free as an associate in a church of about 80. I work to supply my own resources. My wife works. She didn't used to. She didn't want to, but she has sacrificed as well. My kids were home schooled. We sacrificed (in our minds) and put them into the public school system. We gave up all that we knew about life for the chance to be a part of a work of God.

We found it. My current church doesn't have many from the older generation that sit. There are a few, but most are interested in learning how to reach the lost and are taking steps to do it. We also have people from my generation that were sitting. They too are taking steps to learn how to reach the lost. Now we are working on providing ministry opportunities for our youth. We are in the midst of creating discipleship groups for everyone. We are dedicated to making sure that our youth and our adults are mentored and taught to tell others about Jesus and what it means to live like Jesus.

When my pastor arrived at this church it averaged in the 30's. That was 4 years ago. When I arrived last year it averaged in the 60's. This year we are averaging in the 70's. We even had over 80 on a summer Sunday and I was the one preaching! I expect we will see our averages in the 80's and 90's this year. The beginning growth is slow because we are working on a multiplication model instead of an addition model.

I am personally attempting to reach those I work with. I am working on building relationships that gives me permission to speak into their lives. There are conversations that are starting to happen. My wife is serving God at her work and she has had several conversations with her co-workers about God. We may even have the opportunity to do a wedding for one of them. Another one, just might come to our Thursday service. We keep praying. I am teaching my children how to talk to others about Jesus and training them to be concerned about the welfare of others before themselves. I am mentoring two men to be the husbands and fathers God has called them to be. They in turn are working on representing Christ to their families.

On a church level my pastor and I are building connections with other pastors in developing a network of churches for our area. We are in a rural area so we don't have huge populations in a concentrated effort. We have a few people spread out over hundreds of miles. We have towns so small a church there can't afford a pastor and the town is so small the pastor would not be able to find a job. We are working on a network that will provide pastoral support to those small towns so that they can have a small church and have the benefits a trained pastor can provide. We don't have slums quite like a big city. We have country folk spread out over huge ranches. We do have workers that have less than others and live in poverty but they are not concentrated to the same point as other ministry areas. So our approach is going to be different.

My church is working on a benevolence policy for the first time. We don't have much to give and one need could wipe out the budget. But we are starting the conversation about how our church can help the needy in our area. We are clarifying what we can do that would be meaningful. We are defining our area of ministry so that we can raise funds more effectively.

We are giving our church a model to follow and they are scared to death, but responding with excitement. Someone is showing them how they can serve God and is giving them the tools to do it. It isn't to my credit or my pastor's credit. We are simply obeying God. But we are also dreaming big. In our town of 10,000 we see the potential for 6 Nazarene churches. In the next town of 3,500 we see the potential for 3 churches. In another town of 200 we see a town with a house church with a trained lay minister. Actually we counted 17 of those towns within 200 miles. We also see a couple of unincorporated areas that can support house churches or churches.

God is taking this little church of 30 people who struggled to have conversations with other people and is filling it with people who are seeking a chance to serve God. The original 30 are overwhelmed but keep taking the next step. I can't report huge successes because we are in our infancy, but we started mentor groups with 3 people about 9 months ago. We now have over 50 people who are being mentored in someway including the children of the adults who are in mentor groups. We have several people in our mentor groups who do not currently attend our church. As a church of 80 we are now getting ready to embark upon a mission to plant at least 17 churches. (Shhh.) Keep that a secret. They don't realize the number is that high yet. We are starting by assisting a church that is starting over in a town 30 miles away. They have less than 10 people but are in a college town. We are working on a plan to send them musicians and others to help them have a complete service. Their pastor has already given us a key to the building. We already had a work in that town and have more involved in our church from that town then they had in attendance. While those connected to us probably won't attend that church, we are hopeful to help them grow and develop a ministry at the college.

To wrap it up.....

I don't lament the old people, just those who think they are done. Who think they have nothing left to give. We desperately need their wisdom, but they have decided that they have given enough or they just can't stand what is happening to their dear church. In the church where I am now, that isn't really much of a problem and that is a blessing. But I have experienced it in other churches. As a teen I experienced some of it and some of that was from pastors. The question was regarding leaving the church and if that means leaving the faith. My hope is that you will understand that youth see the world differently than you. Comments we make seem common and normal but obscene to the youth. The youth act irresponsible or irreverent to us, but to them they are simply expressing their true feelings. They find us to be offensive for hiding the fact that we don't like being in church. You love church? There are plenty of people in church that don't act like they like it to give teens an impression that we are being disingenuous as a whole. Is that a true representation? No. But in what ways are we setting the teens straight? Do they hear the positive stories or do they hear complaints? Remember the negative stands out in our memories much more than the positive. Our youth are more likely to be dramatic and take things to extremes. We can't do much about that, but perhaps we should consider how church appears to them.

Heaven is a wonderful conversation for those who have lived a full life and dream of being able to be with their Lord and Savior in heaven. But how does heaven sound to the kid that is being abused by her father or boyfriend? What about the kid that is being tortured in school by bullies? What about the kid who has expectations that are crushing them? What do they hear when we talk about issues inside the church and how to make it more comfortable when they see their friend living in a car down the street?

My point is that in order to understand why the church isn't something they consider a valid expression of their faith we must understand that in their view the church does not represent Jesus. It may be true or it may be false. Either way all of us could do a better job of expressing Jesus within the faith community. Many people are serving quietly. I understand being modest and not bragging. But at the same time the youth need to hear how Jesus is using us to reach others. We shouldn't point towards ourselves but towards Jesus. We need to be purposeful in creating more opportunities for the adults to share their stores with the teens. Our oldest generation survived the depression and World War I. It shaped who you are. The next generation survived World War II and Korea and Vietnam. It shaped you. If the youth don't know why you are the way you are all they will see is what they perceive to be wrong and who caused it. Trust me, they won't be the problem.

To those who came before me. Thank you. But don't stop now.

[Ryan Scott]

My understanding of MTD is that it is the spiritual mindset of typical young "Christian" Americans outside the church.

My understanding of the research behind this is that results for students in specifically christian colleges were no different from those in public universities. The thought being that this is the general perspective into which most kids today, Christian or otherwise, are raised.

[John Reilly]

Marsha, I agree with your statement, "The challenge for the church is to somehow reveal the vibrant and ever-challenging Kingdom of God rather than allowing it to remain obscured by a stuffy and often offensive institution that sometimes seems to have no higher goal than to consume one's resources -- time, money, volunteer hours, etc." AND I would add that the challenge for the church includes teaching the CHURCH that in God's heart the church is meant to be Christ in our world and that the world needs to see CHRIST in the church.

[John Reilly]

St. Cyprian speaks to the same effect: "He cannot have God for his father, who has not the Church for his mother" (Treatise on Unity 6). circa ad215.

Must have been a problem before today!

[John Reilly]

Origen thinks so.

Origen
"If someone from this people wants to be saved, let him come into this house so that he may be able to attain his salvation. . . . Let no one, then, be persuaded otherwise, nor let anyone deceive himself: Outside of this house, that is, outside of the Church, no one is saved; for, if anyone should go out of it, he is guilty of his own death" (Homilies on Joshua 3:5 [A.D. 250]).

[Billy Cox]

Leaves how? Moves physically? Moves spiritually? Falls in love with a different demographic?

Sorry to be dense, but I don't understand the question.

When a congregation shifts focus or emphasis in some way that devalues a group of people who were formerly prized. I'm not even assuming that the shift is a bad thing for the congregation, just that the newly devalued group may have trouble adjusting to their new role as outcasts.

[Billy Cox]

My understanding of MTD is that it is the spiritual mindset of typical young "Christian" Americans outside the church. There is no need for such people to go to church because their faith requires nothing of them beyond being "good," in whatever way they define good. And you don't have to go sit in a stuffy church every week in order to be good in that worldview.

I would say that for those adhering to MTD religion, leaving the church does indeed correlate with leaving the faith. Such people are rejecting the picture drawn by the church of a God who wants to be involved in the details of our lives. They are no longer interested in hearing God's voice in their lives and are adopting a lifestyle that allows them to tune out that voice.

The only difference I see between MTD and institutional Christianity is that the institution sees itself as the singular source of spiritual authority that God put in charge before he checked out indefinitely. So evangelical MTD would, "be good, feel good, do the church's bidding."