Does leaving the church = leaving the faith?

[Billy Cox]

St. Cyprian speaks to the same effect: "He cannot have God for his father, who has not the Church for his mother" (Treatise on Unity 6). circa ad215.

Must have been a problem before today!

Freud would like that one. A lot!!

[Randy Wise]

Does leaving the church = leaving the faith?

Not in itself.

In fact going to a church building on sunday while considered a positive outward sign doesn't in itself mean one belongs to Jesus. Not everyone preaches or attends from pure motives.

1 John Those that deny Jesus by word and/or by their actions (hate) are signs of never belonging to Jesus.

I have read of those who claimed Jesus at one time and then changed to another faith. As I asked before," how can one have the Spirit of Christ in them and not know Jesus lives?"

Randy

[Billy Cox]

Does leaving the church = leaving the faith?

Not in itself.

In fact going to a church building on sunday while considered a positive outward sign doesn't in itself mean one belongs to Jesus. Not everyone preaches or attends from pure motives.

If affiliating with a congregation is not the same thing as accepting faith, the 'dis-affiliating' would not be the same as rejecting faith.

I would even say that some people need to leave 'the church' before they can have faith, in much the same way that God couldn't use Gideon to deliver Israel until he chopped down his father's idol. (Asherah pole)

[Randy Wise]

If affiliating with a congregation is not the same thing as accepting faith, the 'dis-affiliating' would not be the same as rejecting faith.

I would even say that some people need to leave 'the church' before they can have faith, in much the same way that God couldn't use Gideon to deliver Israel until he chopped down his father's idol. (Asherah pole)

We are sanctified by faith in Jesus. So I agree. I myself went to Jesus prompted by my love for Him. Though I had the advantage of a Christian Mom who steered me to Jesus from my beginning.

Reminds me of Mary and Martha. Only one thing is needed despite objections of others. Thank God I actually think one is more productive in understanding the freedom we have in Christ.

Randy

[Larry Parsons]

John,
I think your first sentence is probably where we have an issue. While I think I understand what you are saying:
1. My goal is not "to make heaven." My goal is to be like Jesus, and for the young people I am talking about, that is not simply a matter of semantics. Which takes me to -
2. One of their chief frustrations with the church, and keep in mind that these are highly intelligent young people, is that they see the church as, in the words of a former pastor of mine, " so heavenly minded that it is of no worldly good." These young people know their history, know how the church has used future glory as a cop out for not addressing present day injustice, and find the desire for "pie in the sky, by and by" to be horribly offensive when the world around them is being at best neglected and at worst condemned to hell by Christians who are altogether comfortable with the eternal fate of their neighbors.
Again, in the words of one of the young people I know, "Hell begins right here and now, and if we are not willing to help our neighbors deal with the hell they face every day, why should they trust us with what comes next?"

Mike, I would like add a thought to what you are saying. Why should our Christian activity come to a halt when reach the age of 65. I know people will say well we need to let young take over and say why can't we work together In other word there is no retirement from kingdom building
Thanks
Larry

[Kyle Borger]

Mike, I would like add a thought to what you are saying. Why should our Christian activity come to a halt when reach the age of 65. I know people will say well we need to let young take over and say why can't we work together In other word there is no retirement from kingdom building
Thanks
Larry

Thank you Larry. I think the church is hurting because we don't have our older adults mentoring the young adults in greater numbers. I think a big part of why the two age groups don't get each other is because they don't talk to each other.

[Randy Wise]

Thank you Larry. I think the church is hurting because we don't have our older adults mentoring the young adults in greater numbers. I think a big part of why the two age groups don't get each other is because they don't talk to each other.

I was once young and understand youth. We use truth from the written testimony to both young and old and rich and poor. We can get Jesus and what He taught. The gospel message was first preached to a world with many different Gods and customs. Perhaps disagreements arise from what man has added to the message or traditions over the 2000 years since Jesus appeared to man.

When people are downcast in Sunday School instead of teaching them all that they must do (as if we could earn Gods love) I suggest teaching how much God does LOVE us.

I tell you the man on the cross next to Jesus asked and received eternal life. I could ask what work did he do to have his sins forgiven? And if our sins are forgiven by the one who has authority to forgive sins there is no guilt left. A righteousness by faith.

When one goes on a sunday school/church outside activity does one then plan bible studies and work missions? Are there times when one can simply can enjoy the fellowship without such bible studies and work activities in such outings?

There may be a reason people are leaving a church but again that doesn't equal leaving the faith.(Jesus)

Our religion promotes Holiness and righteousness as God is Holy. As is also written the body is the temple of the Holy Spirit. That is truth to the young and old, rich and poor. I would point out to anyone they are not alone in that. Music and dancing are not in themselves forbidden acts. Beware of the yeast of the Pharisees....

Randy

[Ian Gentles]

We are sanctified by faith in Jesus. So I agree. I myself went to Jesus prompted by my love for Him. Though I had the advantage of a Christian Mom who steered me to Jesus from my beginning.

Reminds me of Mary and Martha. Only one thing is needed despite objections of others. Thank God I actually think one is more productive in understanding the freedom we have in Christ.

Randy

I left the church in my early teens, except for occasional visits. My life style was certainly not christian, but I still beleived in God, the Bible, etc. I came to faith as an adult aged 23.

[Dale Cozby]

I left the church in my early teens, except for occasional visits. My life style was certainly not christian, but I still beleived in God, the Bible, etc. I came to faith as an adult aged 23.

I can't leave the church for I am the church. I can leave my faith in Christ, but I would be miserable if I did.
Everywhere I go the church is there, because I am there, but like a fish out of water I yearn to be back in fellowship with like spirited people who are also the church just as I am. I draw my strength and courage from the church as part of the church and I give that strength and courage to whosoever I meet. I love the church as I love myself, the church isn't perfect but neither am I. Jesus prayed that we would be one even as He and the Father are one. How can I be one if I am never with the other members of the church. I am one with the church...and by an act of my freewill choose to love the church as the church loves me. I offer grace to her as she offers grace to me.

The church invisible and glorious, and part of me and I part of it.

The church is holy and catholic.

[Randy Wise]

I left the church in my early teens, except for occasional visits. My life style was certainly not christian, but I still beleived in God, the Bible, etc. I came to faith as an adult aged 23.

The way I read what you wrote is at some point you were ready to live like a believer and commit your life to Christ and at that time God called you.



John 6:37 "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away."

[Todd Erickson]

I think that it would be nice to be able to go to church and be excited about something.

When I see people who are extroverts and pretty much always positive, I can't really take their excitement seriously, because they constantly exist at that level. For me, there has to be actual content and involvement to something for it to be exciting. If it's just the same thing again, that's not exciting, that's rote.

Mind you, I really get excited, even passionate, when I get to talk about God and how He loves us. This just isn't necessarily something that happens very often in church.

I suppose maybe one could see that as a designed element of the church. "If we frustrate you enough in church, surely you'll talk passionately to people elsewhere about God". But in the same way that I'm passionate about God, I'm compassionate about those around me, and I'm going to be very careful not to overwhelm them, especially with something that is somewhere between uninteresting and offensive to them. Much like my Lord, I want to seduce them to the Love of God...

So church is not seductive, it is not passionate, it is not exciting. Programs aren't any of those things in the long run...but things that actually engage people's gifts in a creative and life giving manner do, in my experience. But that isn't what church is for...

[Mike Schutz]

I think it is time for me to be unpopular. I hate it when people use the word "institutional church." As soon as three people sit down and agree what time to meet and have a Bible Study the church is institutional. If 5 people pool their resources and then agree on where to give - again the church has just become institutional.

With that being said, I have the privilege of teaching at one of our colleges, and this is a discussion that comes up with some frequency. Here is how I address the issue.

First, there does need to be a reminder of what the "institutional" church has done. There needs to be a honest look at the hospitals, clinics, NGOs, and wide ranging work the church has done and is doing around the world to end disease, hunger, and alleviate suffering. Many of the young people I talk to also receive nice scholarships provided by the "institutional" church. Depending on the attitude, I have from time to time expressed my concern about their life, and added my hope they remain consistent with their beliefs. To further this wish, I have suggested that they go to the registrars office and surrender their scholarship money provided by the "institutional" church. Let's not cherry pick here. I might also remind people that a lot of people trudged to a factory every day, and worked in a steel mill, and gave every week so that schools could be built, churches provide a place of family, and aid stations opened around the world. You cannot even talk of an "institutional" church without really thinking about the thousands of people who did this, and do this every day.

To be frank, I do not know how you do the Christianity without the church. And as soon as two people meet to discuss an issue - it is institutional. I then try to challenge them to change the church. I tell them quite honestly that there is nothing more powerful, more appreciated than young adults who serve. it is invigorasting and energizing. I also apologize that the church is not better, but it is better than it used to be, and encourage them that I have been able to add my voice to the church in my little corner, and their voice will be heard as well. Yet their voice is only heard through involvement, prayer, and sacrifice.

We live in a world, especially in the west, where if everything is not just like I like it, well then, I will leave. I see much of this attitude at work at every level. My challenge for the young adult is that their generation do it better. But doing it better involves relationships - even with people who will see things differently. We just can't go it alone.

Doug,
I also do not know how to do Christianity without the institutional church. However, that doesn't mean it is not possible.

1. When I hear the phrase "institutional church" (IC), when most folks use it, they seem to mean the structures we have built in order to carry out the mission. So, if the mission of the local church is "Love God, Love People, Make Disciples of Christ" (which is the mission of our local congregation), the facilities, staff, programs and budget we have built in order to carry out that mission are the IC. Could the mission be done without the IC? Sure. Could it be done as well? A good and important question. Are there occasions when it seems that the IC seems to become more important than the mission - sometimes.
2. Every single person I know who works for the general church is a good person (that's my experience - your mileage may vary), and I know quite a few, considering I live in the wilderness of the denomination. Yet there have been times when decisions have been made which seemed to reflect a desire to protect institutional structures rather than promote mission. The key word is "seem," but we are talking about perception in this entire thread. The same was certainly the case during my 23 years at a Nazarene college. Decisions were made defensively, to protect programs and structure, rather than for the sake of the mission. This is the very nature of institutions. They are by nature defensive.
3. Thus, when younger folks - in this particular situation, anyone younger than 50 - asks, "Why should we give to this program? What does it do? Are we supposed to give just because some office at the GMC tells us to give? "- there is a generational disconnect. Older folks see loyalty to church programs and structures as loyalty to the church, and thus loyalty to God. They see those asking the question as either immature believers, or a person unwilling to give to God. However, go younger - say under 30, and you get an even deeper question. "Why do we need these programs at all? What good does the Sunday morning gathering do if it simply helps people believe that they are fine with God, and thus don't feel a need to be Jesus in their community? Is the church just providing the panem et circenses necessary to appease the people - with their focus on material comfort now and heaven later? Why do we need the building, the programs?"
And when they ask these questions, most folks in the church tell them they are not really Christians, or immature believers, or don't respond at all, because for us our faith in Christ and life in the church is the same thing.
4. I was speaking to a young person this week who told me, through tears, "I cannot be in the church any longer. It is offensive to me. I read the words of Jesus and read his actions, and I see none of it there. Folks are more excited about culture wars and politics and eating at Chick-fil-A then they are being radical for Christ. But the problem is, when I walk out of the church, I walk out of my family. I no longer have a culture, I no longer have a people. The church doesn't want me, because I keep asking questions - questions it taught me to ask at its colleges and in its youth groups. And my secular friends, even those who are passionate about social justice and change, don't want me because I pray, don't smoke, drink, do drugs, sleep around, and I read my Bible and talk about Jesus. Who are my people?"

[Paul DeBaufer]

Doug,
I also do not know how to do Christianity without the institutional church. However, that doesn't mean it is not possible.

1. When I hear the phrase "institutional church" (IC), when most folks use it, they seem to mean the structures we have built in order to carry out the mission. So, if the mission of the local church is "Love God, Love People, Make Disciples of Christ" (which is the mission of our local congregation), the facilities, staff, programs and budget we have built in order to carry out that mission are the IC. Could the mission be done without the IC? Sure. Could it be done as well? A good and important question. Are there occasions when it seems that the IC seems to become more important than the mission - sometimes.
2. Every single person I know who works for the general church is a good person (that's my experience - your mileage may vary), and I know quite a few, considering I live in the wilderness of the denomination. Yet there have been times when decisions have been made which seemed to reflect a desire to protect institutional structures rather than promote mission. The key word is "seem," but we are talking about perception in this entire thread. The same was certainly the case during my 23 years at a Nazarene college. Decisions were made defensively, to protect programs and structure, rather than for the sake of the mission. This is the very nature of institutions. They are by nature defensive.
3. Thus, when younger folks - in this particular situation, anyone younger than 50 - asks, "Why should we give to this program? What does it do? Are we supposed to give just because some office at the GMC tells us to give? - there is a generational disconnect. Older folks see loyalty to church programs and structures as loyalty to the church, and thus loyalty to God. They see those asking the question as either immature believers, or a person unwilling to give to God. However, go younger - say under 30, and you get an even deeper question. "Why do we need these programs at all? What good does the Sunday morning gathering do if it simply helps people believe that they are fine with God, and thus don't feel a need to be Jesus in their community? Is the church just providing the panem et circenses necessary to appease the people - with their focus on material comfort now and heaven later? Why do we need the building, the programs?"
And when they ask these questions, most folks in the church tell them they are not really Christians, or immature believers, or don't respond at all, because for us our faith in Christ and life in the church is the same thing.
4. I was speaking to a young person this week who told me, through tears, "I cannot be in the church any longer. It is offensive to me. I read the words of Jesus and read his actions, and I see none of it there. Folks are more excited about culture wars and politics and eating at Chick-fil-A then they are being radical for Christ. But the problem is, when I walk out of the church, I walk out of my family. I no longer have a culture, I no longer have a people. The church doesn't want me, because I keep asking questions - questions it taught me to ask at its colleges and in its youth groups. And my secular friends, even those who are passionate about social justice and change, don't want me because I pray, don't smoke, drink, do drugs, sleep around, and I read my Bible and talk about Jesus. Who are my people?"

Thank you Mike, especially for 3 & 4. I am well past 30 and wonder the same things as you say that the under 30s ask. I also resonate with the statement by the young person you quoted in 4, actually she/he expresses my sentiments almost exactly, though maybe more eloquently.

[Sarah Smith]

Having lived where the only institutional churches were either cults or taught what I believed to be untruth as their theology, yes, at times we could have to leave the church in order not to leave the faith.

Happily not experiencing that now.

[Billy Cox]

Doug,
I also do not know how to do Christianity without the institutional church. However, that doesn't mean it is not possible.

At least you allow the possibility. It's tempting to think that there is no Christianity apart from the organization, but keep in mind that unaffiliated sheep don't have a marketing department to tell their story.

You might be interested in checking out lifestream.org, a post-institutional community started by Wayne Jacobsen.

1. When I hear the phrase "institutional church" (IC), when most folks use it, they seem to mean the structures we have built in order to carry out the mission. So, if the mission of the local church is "Love God, Love People, Make Disciples of Christ" (which is the mission of our local congregation), the facilities, staff, programs and budget we have built in order to carry out that mission are the IC. Could the mission be done without the IC? Sure. Could it be done as well? A good and important question. Are there occasions when it seems that the IC seems to become more important than the mission - sometimes.

My outlook on the IC is more generous than it used to be. Borrowing an Ecclesiastes expression; there is a time for the IC and there is a time for the remnant. There is a time for the comforting priest and there is a time for the firebreathing prophet. Judge for yourself which time we live in.

2. Every single person I know who works for the general church is a good person (that's my experience - your mileage may vary), and I know quite a few, considering I live in the wilderness of the denomination. Yet there have been times when decisions have been made which seemed to reflect a desire to protect institutional structures rather than promote mission. The key word is "seem," but we are talking about perception in this entire thread. The same was certainly the case during my 23 years at a Nazarene college. Decisions were made defensively, to protect programs and structure, rather than for the sake of the mission. This is the very nature of institutions. They are by nature defensive.

I accept that defensiveness is the nature of the institution. What happens when the institution needs to be defended from those who are supposed to be defending it? I will not give money, time, or anything of value to an institution in which some of the stewards have helped a good buddy to fleece the WEF.

So there are plenty of good people working for the general church, many of whom are aware of the fleecing, but who cannot do anything about it. Their goodness is admirable, but does nothing to mitigate my disappointment with that part of the institution.

Older folks see loyalty to church programs and structures as loyalty to the church, and thus loyalty to God. They see those asking the question as either immature believers, or a person unwilling to give to God. However, go younger - say under 30, and you get an even deeper question. "Why do we need these programs at all? What good does the Sunday morning
gathering do if it simply helps people believe that they are fine with God, and thus don't feel a need to be Jesus in their community? Is the church just providing the panem et circenses necessary to appease the people - with their focus on material comfort now and heaven later? Why do we need the building, the programs?"
And when they ask these questions, most folks in the church tell them they are not really Christians, or immature believers, or don't respond at all, because for us our faith in Christ and life in the church is the same thing.

I acknowledge the generational difference, but I think it is more than just the 20-somethings who are dismayed with the system. It is tempting to see it as just young people doing what the young always do; wanting to rearrange the parlor furniture before they understand what function the parlor serves.

4. I was speaking to a young person this week who told me, through tears, "I cannot be in the church any longer. It is offensive to me. I read the words of Jesus and read his actions, and I see none of it there. Folks are more excited about culture wars and politics and eating at Chick-fil-A then they are being radical for Christ. But the problem is, when I walk out of the church, I walk out of my family. I no longer have a culture, I no longer have a people. The church doesn't want me, because I keep asking questions - questions it taught me to ask at its colleges and in its youth groups. And my secular friends, even those who are passionate about social justice and change, don't want me because I pray, don't smoke, drink, do drugs, sleep around, and I read my Bible and talk about Jesus. Who are my people?"

Mike, I apprecaite you for asking the question and (perhaps) taking pains to not be threatened by these sorts of questions nor resorting to the tried and true defense mechanisms.

I can certainly relate to the 'where do I belong?' question. On one hand, I'm not about to dive headlong into secular culture, although I could certainly find a live-and-let-live place where everybody knows my name.

I suspect that it's impossible to work out my salvation in a local Nazarene church. My faith requires engagement and dialogue whereas the Nazarene choices in my area seem only interested in recruitment and consensus. Keeping my doubts and questions in a dark closet is a lifestyle I can no longer sustain.

I am convinced that there are others who have graduated from the attractional, transactional church who are feeling like a fish out of water too and would jump at a chance for some refreshing spiritual conversation that is not oriented around closing the sale.

[Steven Burton]

I think I know what the problem is with young people leaving the Church. IT ISN'T MANLY ENOUGH!

Problem solved, save your breath all!

Actually l left because it is overly masculine. Among other things.

Edit:The masculine thing has to with being married to someone who is called to ministry and is a woman and on top of that felt rejected by pastoral sermons at our last church. She sits through the church her brother and mother go to but does has some problem with it. But likes the fact that is makes her mom and brother think about the same things we learned to question or learn at SNU. My other problem is i do not like it when a pastor feels the need to talk about depression and has no experience or true understanding of what is going on. If it was as easy as flipping a freaking switch I would have done that 3 years ago. Some how Jesus taking the penalty for my sins should make me over joyed and not depressed. I mean some days I wish I could take those who see it that way give them all the chemical imbalances in my brain and then watch them go crazy when they think they are having a heart attack or trouble breathing or as psychologist call it panic attack. If I could flip a switch I would. I would love to stop having panic attacks once a week. I would love to stop being able to feel nauseated periodically though out the day due to anxiety. I would love to be able to hold down a proper job and not have to deal with depression and anxiety that get me so bad I have trouble leaving the house due to anxiety. Or be able to drive in traffic with out having a panic attack. You want to know why I left the church tell the church to stop treating me as a sinner because some how genetically I ended up depression and anxiety. Tell the church I have had many crisis situation and prayed so much and cried so much due this brain that I could cover a house in square feet in tears. Tell the church I am not an outsider I have considered myself a Christian ever since I started developing a personal relationship with Christ at the age of 8. Tell the church that because I have suffer from these issue I an not demon possessed. Tell the church that I am broken been broken over and over again have suffered much in my 28 years. Have suffered from depression for over 10 years and still get looked at as something is wrong with me because I have trouble controlling chemicals in my brain. Until there is a church that can accepts the suffering of the broken and those who consider themselves Christian but are still in a situation of needing healing. Maybe I could come to a church like that. Maybe I could get restoration and healing if the church didn't treat me as a sinner because I am depressed and not over joyed. Maybe Just maybe.

[John Kennedy]

I've left churches (both congregations and denominations) in my lifetime - far from considering it leaving the faith, I don't even think I left the Church.

I'm not sure which group irritates me the most - the ones who will mindlessly defend the institution at all costs or the ones who smugly assure me of their spiritual superiority by sacking (or attempting to sack) the institutional church(IC) - God knows I've had my share (and a bit more) of painful interaction with both.

Most of the people who have as their major stock in trade the constant denunciation of the IC are intellectually as dishonest as the ones who are its eternally unquestioning defenders and apologists.

My somewhat less than warm regard for the former comes from the well-founded belief that people who constantly urge me to think outside the box already have a nicely prepared box of their own for me to occupy in order to think their way to my heart's content. (Fools to the left of me - jokers to the right!)

I was talking to someone the other day whose spiritual journey is similar, in many respects, to my own. We agreed that while we're happy with where we are, we're glad we were where we were.

[Susan Unger]

I'm not sure which group irritates me the most - the ones who will mindlessly defend the institution at all costs or the ones who smugly assure me of their spiritual superiority by sacking (or attempting to sack) the institutional church(IC) - God knows I've had my share (and a bit more) of painful interaction with both.

I've had quite a bit of a run in with the latter, lately. "Intellectually dishonest" fits the situation well I think.

[Ryan Scott]

I think Doug is partly right about the institutional church (although I know plenty of people who would argue that all the good that's come from the institutional church has come because of tireless, dedicated people kicking and screaming against the powers that be who try to hold them back - that's certainly the history of compassionate ministry in the Church of the Nazarene).

I think the real entity people long to escape is the enculturated church. From the first Jews to the first Christians, to followers of Christ today, we're called to represent a different culture. Our institutions have largely been co-opted by culture.

I, and many my age, see real and powerful analogous relationships to the empire of Rome that represented the antithesis of Christian culture with the empire of individualism that represents that antithesis today - and we see the institutions of the church, whether it be a local congregation or an international denomination, entirely in the grip of such a culture.

That's what people want to do without.

I've lived long enough and studied enough history and sociology to know that every radical, counter-cultural entity ends up being co-opted by the culture over time. It's a fact of existence.

The answer then, is to constantly support people and groups fighting against those institutions and entities. I am always supportive of anti- movements. I may have strong critiques for their means, motives, and goals - but I am always supportive of their desire to break free and be different.

If we lose that, we lose everything.

[Doug Ward]

Mike, it seems to me you are illustrating my point. Questioning the need for program A or program B is a far different kettle of fish than leaving the church. Of course we question, modify, cancel and even start anew. Sometimes we even disagree, and we do not see a need for program A, but the larger, collective voice does. There are times when I work, and do things of questionable worth, and in doing so modify that questionable worth through my participation and my voice earns the privilege of being heard as I do so. There have even been times I have been wrong about a few things, and see worth later that I did not see earlier.

I truly do not understand your paragraph 4. Is it merely a local body that is being referenced, because it references a church I am not familiar with. I see people excited for going overseas of giving of themselves. I see elements of the church excited for social justice, even social justice that I do not find helpful, or just for that matter. I see people excited about the inner city, surfer youth camps, and now even "cowboy church." The church exists wherever I am. The institutional church has flaws, yes. ( I cannot believe that I am defending it here - new position for me) However, there are a host of things that only it can do. There are things we do together that we cannot do alone. Whatever we do together - is institutional. So we try to expand the good, and diminish the non-reflective. Offensive? Sometimes that word is cast about defining people doing things we have historically frowned upon, and we say people can never be offensive to us - we must love them. We should at least have that same standard for good people, who might be misguided, but we can move them through relationship. I know of no other way.

[Billy Cox]

I'm not sure which group irritates me the most - the ones who will mindlessly defend the institution at all costs or the ones who smugly assure me of their spiritual superiority by sacking (or attempting to sack) the institutional church(IC) - God knows I've had my share (and a bit more) of painful interaction with both.

Most of the people who have as their major stock in trade the constant denunciation of the IC are intellectually as dishonest as the ones who are its eternally unquestioning defenders and apologists.

In my experience, those who have 'left the building' can be pretty annoying for a time, when the wound is still fresh. I liken it to the way that someone just divorced can be very negative about their ex and about marriage in general. Over time, the person gains perspective and isn't so extreme in their assessment and the break is not foremost in their consciousness.

Fast forward a few years, and the 'leavers' have moved on, no longer thrown into a spiral at every stray thought about religion or church. By contrast, those who mindlessly defend even the indefensible aspects of the institution are still spouting off the same intellectually dishonest, ad hominem attacks against those who dare leave God's obvious favor bestowed on the organization.

If I had a choice between the leavers and those who consign the leavers to hell, I'll take the former group in a heartbeat.

My somewhat less than warm regard for the former comes from the well-founded belief that people who constantly urge me to think outside the box already have a nicely prepared box of their own for me to occupy in order to think their way to my heart's content. (Fools to the left of me - jokers to the right!)

This is sometimes true, but I chalk it up to the religious impulse: "I have found a way of thinking and living that is good for me, therefore it must be good for you, and you're a fool if you can't see it and/or refuse to accept it." So when someone leaves the IC and can't understand why you stay, just remind yourself that "it's the religion talking." It takes time to stop thinking like a religious slavemaster.

[John Kennedy]

This is sometimes true, but I chalk it up to the religious impulse: "I have found a way of thinking and living that is good for me, therefore it must be good for you, and you're a fool if you can't see it and/or refuse to accept it." So when someone leaves the IC and can't understand why you stay, just remind yourself that "it's the religion talking." It takes time to stop thinking like a religious slavemaster.

So the 'religion talking' is somewhat like 'the bottle talking'?

[Billy Cox]

I, and many my age, see real and powerful analogous relationships to the empire of Rome that represented the antithesis of Christian culture with the empire of individualism that represents that antithesis today - and we see the institutions of the church, whether it be a local congregation or an international denomination, entirely in the grip of such a culture.

That's what people want to do without.

I have to admit I did a double-take when I saw this. One of the standard accusations made by those in the institution is that those who leave are selfish individualist "lone rangers". Heck, someone has even used that terminology in this thread.

So it's quite a shock to see someone turn that accusation right back on the institution.

I've lived long enough and studied enough history and sociology to know that every radical, counter-cultural entity ends up being co-opted by the culture over time. It's a fact of existence.

The answer then, is to constantly support people and groups fighting against those institutions and entities. I am always supportive of anti- movements. I may have strong critiques for their means, motives, and goals - but I am always supportive of their desire to break free and be different.

If we lose that, we lose everything.

I appreciate that. I'm still learning how to be anti-institutional without killing the hostages.

[Billy Cox]

So the 'religion talking' is somewhat like 'the bottle talking'?

That's the metaphor I was going for. It's not a good excuse ultimately, but perhaps could buy a little empathy.

[John Kennedy]

I had clicked laughing at Steven Burton's original post - when I saw the EDIT I immediately removed it. I certainly don't describe Steven's post as a laughing matter. Having dealt with depression myself, I can relate to what he had to say.

As far as concerns the people who read some sort of spiritual element into depression, I make it a point to stay as far away from them as possible. They're not only ignorant - they're cruel, even if ignorantly so.

[Ryan Scott]

I have to admit I did a double-take when I saw this. One of the standard accusations made by those in the institution is that those who leave are selfish individualist "lone rangers". Heck, someone has even used that terminology in this thread.

So it's quite a shock to see someone turn that accusation right back on the institution.

My journey, which I think is pretty typical, was being introduced to scripture, really for the first time, where I had the tools to read it on its own without the theological filters of the adults in my life. I began to realize that the gospel was so much bigger than I was ever told. I wanted to do big things - and most of all, I wanted the world I was promised. In reality, I wanted the eschaton, I wanted a redeemed creation, a world made right.

I looked around at the church I was sitting in on Sundays; they did not look like that world. I spent some brief time trying to excite them the way I am excited, but ultimately they weren't having it.

Turns out they actually lived in the real world, the one that isn't quite perfect yet. I hadn't been made aware that this world still existed. Once I figured that out, I came to realize that scripture was more about being the people of God in the midst of a broken world that it was about fixing the world or waiting on the next one.

That's when I realized I needed people. You can't be a lone ranger because you don't possess everything.

Now I'm sort of at a place where I want/need a community of people to grow together and live together and embody that gospel together. I'm fairly certain it can happen within a congregation; I am less certain it can happen in any sort of institution. I believe such a body will always be a thorn in the flesh of a institution, whether its a traditional congregation or some new fangled community that rises from the ashes.

Those in power in the institution will either encourage it because it reminds them of the passion of the gospel, or they will squash it because they know, while it is helpful and beautiful as a minority approach, if it becomes too big it will topple the institution.

A few in leadership don't mind the institution being toppled. Those are the people who give me hope and keep me in the family.

[Peggy Gray]

I mean some days I wish I could take those who see it that way give them all the chemical imbalances in my brain and then watch them go crazy when they think they are having a heart attack or trouble breathing or as psychologist call it panic attack. If I could flip a switch I would. I would love to stop having panic attacks once a week. I would love to stop being able to feel nauseated periodically though out the day due to anxiety. I would love to be able to hold down a proper job and not have to deal with depression and anxiety that get me so bad I have trouble leaving the house due to anxiety. Or be able to drive in traffic with out having a panic attack. You want to know why I left the church tell the church to stop treating me as a sinner because some how genetically I ended up depression and anxiety. Tell the church I have had many crisis situation and prayed so much and cried so much due this brain that I could cover a house in square feet in tears. Tell the church I am not an outsider I have considered myself a Christian ever since I started developing a personal relationship with Christ at the age of 8. Tell the church that because I have suffer from these issue I an not demon possessed. Tell the church that I am broken been broken over and over again have suffered much in my 28 years. Have suffered from depression for over 10 years and still get looked at as something is wrong with me because I have trouble controlling chemicals in my brain. Until there is a church that can accepts the suffering of the broken and those who consider themselves Christian but are still in a situation of needing healing. Maybe I could come to a church like that. Maybe I could get restoration and healing if the church didn't treat me as a sinner because I am depressed and not over joyed. Maybe Just maybe.

The Church (institutional or not) is a long distance from accepting (much less understanding) depression, anxiety and their cousins as "real" illness. It's hard to muster up that one-in-the-bond-of-love feeling when you can't breathe, your heart is pounding in your throat, and you seriously feel like you might die if you don't escape RIGHT NOW...and someone feels led to share with you that "God hath not given us the spirit of fear..." As though that applies.

[John Kennedy]

My journey, which I think is pretty typical, was being introduced to scripture, really for the first time, where I had the tools to read it on its own without the theological filters of the adults in my life. I began to realize that the gospel was so much bigger than I was ever told. I wanted to do big things - and most of all, I wanted the world I was promised. In reality, I wanted the eschaton, I wanted a redeemed creation, a world made right.

I looked around at the church I was sitting in on Sundays; they did not look like that world. I spent some brief time trying to excite them the way I am excited, but ultimately they weren't having it.

Turns out they actually lived in the real world, the one that isn't quite perfect yet. I hadn't been made aware that this world still existed. Once I figured that out, I came to realize that scripture was more about being the people of God in the midst of a broken world that it was about fixing the world or waiting on the next one.

That's when I realized I needed people. You can't be a lone ranger because you don't possess everything.

Now I'm sort of at a place where I want/need a community of people to grow together and live together and embody that gospel together. I'm fairly certain it can happen within a congregation; I am less certain it can happen in any sort of institution. I believe such a body will always be a thorn in the flesh of a institution, whether its a traditional congregation or some new fangled community that rises from the ashes.

Those in power in the institution will either encourage it because it reminds them of the passion of the gospel, or they will squash it because they know, while it is helpful and beautiful as a minority approach, if it becomes too big it will topple the institution.

A few in leadership don't mind the institution being toppled. Those are the people who give me hope and keep me in the family.

Ryan -
I'm in general agreement with what you're saying, but I think you're failing to recognize that the community of people who seek to grow together and embody the gospel together are, in a very real sense, an institution. The things we do to facilitate the 'together' part have an inescapable 'institutional' effect.
A de-institutionalized church will probably, of necessity, have a membership of one. Collaboration has that kind of effect. Probably the best we're going to be able to do, as the body grows, is to establish some checks and balances.
I view groups that seek to convey the idea that they're 'non-institutional' with the same wariness that I have for those who try to tell me their church doesn't have any theology or doctrines - 'we just preach the Bible'. Yeah!
Whenever someone tries to approach me with the "I'm jus' an ole country boy" line I immediately check to see if my wallet's still there and start putting some distance between us.

[Gene Tatsch]

Not sure how the transformation occurs,
but when the purpose for existance of the institution/organization is to carry out a shared mission, it seems healthy.
Yet very quickly, as the vision of the mission fades into the nuts & bolts of "administrivia", the purpose transforms into protecting & growing the institution/organization - not healthy.
IMO.
Hence, every institution/organization is in danger at its initiation.

[Susan Unger]

Actually l left because it is overly masculine. Among other things.

Edit:The masculine thing has to with being married to someone who is called to ministry and is a woman and on top of that felt rejected by pastoral sermons at our last church. She sits through the church her brother and mother go to but does has some problem with it. But likes the fact that is makes her mom and brother think about the same things we learned to question or learn at SNU. My other problem is i do not like it when a pastor feels the need to talk about depression and has no experience or true understanding of what is going on. If it was as easy as flipping a freaking switch I would have done that 3 years ago. Some how Jesus taking the penalty for my sins should make me over joyed and not depressed. I mean some days I wish I could take those who see it that way give them all the chemical imbalances in my brain and then watch them go crazy when they think they are having a heart attack or trouble breathing or as psychologist call it panic attack. If I could flip a switch I would. I would love to stop having panic attacks once a week. I would love to stop being able to feel nauseated periodically though out the day due to anxiety. I would love to be able to hold down a proper job and not have to deal with depression and anxiety that get me so bad I have trouble leaving the house due to anxiety. Or be able to drive in traffic with out having a panic attack. You want to know why I left the church tell the church to stop treating me as a sinner because some how genetically I ended up depression and anxiety. Tell the church I have had many crisis situation and prayed so much and cried so much due this brain that I could cover a house in square feet in tears. Tell the church I am not an outsider I have considered myself a Christian ever since I started developing a personal relationship with Christ at the age of 8. Tell the church that because I have suffer from these issue I an not demon possessed. Tell the church that I am broken been broken over and over again have suffered much in my 28 years. Have suffered from depression for over 10 years and still get looked at as something is wrong with me because I have trouble controlling chemicals in my brain. Until there is a church that can accepts the suffering of the broken and those who consider themselves Christian but are still in a situation of needing healing. Maybe I could come to a church like that. Maybe I could get restoration and healing if the church didn't treat me as a sinner because I am depressed and not over joyed. Maybe Just maybe.

Too bad we live in different parts of the country. My heart really goes out to you, my friends and anyone who suffers from depression and other mental health issues. It is easy to over look or ignore those who are one of the "least of these" in our society yet they are the ones who need love and compassion the most. You are in my prayers.

[Paul DeBaufer]

Actually l left because it is overly masculine. Among other things.

Edit:The masculine thing has to with being married to someone who is called to ministry and is a woman and on top of that felt rejected by pastoral sermons at our last church. She sits through the church her brother and mother go to but does has some problem with it. But likes the fact that is makes her mom and brother think about the same things we learned to question or learn at SNU. My other problem is i do not like it when a pastor feels the need to talk about depression and has no experience or true understanding of what is going on. If it was as easy as flipping a freaking switch I would have done that 3 years ago. Some how Jesus taking the penalty for my sins should make me over joyed and not depressed. I mean some days I wish I could take those who see it that way give them all the chemical imbalances in my brain and then watch them go crazy when they think they are having a heart attack or trouble breathing or as psychologist call it panic attack. If I could flip a switch I would. I would love to stop having panic attacks once a week. I would love to stop being able to feel nauseated periodically though out the day due to anxiety. I would love to be able to hold down a proper job and not have to deal with depression and anxiety that get me so bad I have trouble leaving the house due to anxiety. Or be able to drive in traffic with out having a panic attack. You want to know why I left the church tell the church to stop treating me as a sinner because some how genetically I ended up depression and anxiety. Tell the church I have had many crisis situation and prayed so much and cried so much due this brain that I could cover a house in square feet in tears. Tell the church I am not an outsider I have considered myself a Christian ever since I started developing a personal relationship with Christ at the age of 8. Tell the church that because I have suffer from these issue I an not demon possessed. Tell the church that I am broken been broken over and over again have suffered much in my 28 years. Have suffered from depression for over 10 years and still get looked at as something is wrong with me because I have trouble controlling chemicals in my brain. Until there is a church that can accepts the suffering of the broken and those who consider themselves Christian but are still in a situation of needing healing. Maybe I could come to a church like that. Maybe I could get restoration and healing if the church didn't treat me as a sinner because I am depressed and not over joyed. Maybe Just maybe.

I'm sorry for your pain Steven. I am sorry that the place you should be able to find love and comfort doesn't and that you had to leave.

Some guy over on Twitter posted, "Being strong for others empowers you to overcome personal obstacles," and, "Depression is often rooted in a kind of narcissism which suggests that life is all about you." This is a Christian guy representing what many in the church think about depression and other mental illness.

[Ryan Scott]

Ryan -
I'm in general agreement with what you're saying, but I think you're failing to recognize that the community of people who seek to grow together and embody the gospel together are, in a very real sense, an institution. The things we do to facilitate the 'together' part have an inescapable 'institutional' effect.
A de-institutionalized church will probably, of necessity, have a membership of one. Collaboration has that kind of effect. Probably the best we're going to be able to do, as the body grows, is to establish some checks and balances.
I view groups that seek to convey the idea that they're 'non-institutional' with the same wariness that I have for those who try to tell me their church doesn't have any theology or doctrines - 'we just preach the Bible'. Yeah!
Whenever someone tries to approach me with the "I'm jus' an ole country boy" line I immediately check to see if my wallet's still there and start putting some distance between us.

Well sure, if we're defining the word institution, but we're really not - we're trying to communicate what lots of young people mean when they decry the institutional church.

For me, it's community. If I know the people I worship with and we have real relationship, not just the superficialities of Sunday Morning, then it's an institution I can work with. If it becomes bigger, wider than a group with whom I can have some relationship, then, while it might be useful for some purposes, it is institutional.

Perhaps the distinction is between institution and institutional.

An institution becomes institutional when its motivating factor becomes self-preservation.

I don't think it benefits us to argue over semantics; that's the sort of thing the very people we're talking about run from.

More than anything, I think young Christians are looking for a worshiping community so committed to the gospel it doesn't care if it continues to exist, grow numerically, make money, or gain recognition. Those are signs of institutionalism.

[Ryan Scott]

Marriage is a wonderful institution. If the one and only reason two people stay married is because they promised to do so, the institution of marriage has become institutionalized.

If we translate that image to the Church, there's a lot of idealistic young people out there who think you should just give up on an institutionalized marriage, whereas the wisdom of the ages says you need to figure out how to recapture the institution and lose the institutionalism - to revive what seems dead.

However, most of these people go to leaders and say, "we're only staying married because we promised to do so," and the response is, "great, that's what a marriage is - two people sticking together forever no matter what." "But couldn't it be better?" "Sure it could, and some people have figured out how to make it better, but that's just not realistic for most couples - be happy with what you've got."

Are these kids more likely to try and revive the marriage or quit altogether and give up?

Shouldn't the Church be more than this? Yeah, for some people it works out that way, but it's just not realistic for everyone.

This leads to a cycle of moving from group to group searching for authentic living, constantly being disappointed and moving again to greener pastures.

They end up choosing between a neverending search with guaranteed failure and a lifetime of lowered expectations.

I don't know the answer, but it has something to do with convincing one other person that "these bones can live again."

I sort of make it my practice to tell people that the Church can be what it's called to be and hope somebody actually believes me - then we've got something. My prayer is that I can be the someone who affirms and agrees with some disillusioned young person that the bones can live again before they give up believing.

[Doug Ward]

More than anything, I think young Christians are looking for a worshiping community so committed to the gospel it doesn't care if it continues to exist, grow numerically, make money, or gain recognition. Those are signs of institutionalism.

Yes, I agree. However, there is also an element of truth if you change this statement to "so committed to the gospel it doesn't care if it demands attention, commitment, and tithe." I do know what you mean, but I see some of this as well.

[Doug Ward]

I sort of make it my practice to tell people that the Church can be what it's called to be and hope somebody actually believes me - then we've got something. My prayer is that I can be the someone who affirms and agrees with some disillusioned young person that the bones can live again before they give up believing.

Ryan, I like all of this. I am with you in your call to see the church embody authentic living. Yet, if we all just become wanderers looking for bones that have already sprung to life, then we truly are in trouble. Most of the places where the dry bones live, live because some people walked into a valley of dead, dry bones, and said live. The bones came to life, some quicker than others, but it takes a brave voice to act as catalyst, and some time in the dry bones division.

[Randy Wise]

Doug,

4. I was speaking to a young person this week who told me, through tears, "I cannot be in the church any longer. It is offensive to me. I read the words of Jesus and read his actions, and I see none of it there. Folks are more excited about culture wars and politics and eating at Chick-fil-A then they are being radical for Christ. But the problem is, when I walk out of the church, I walk out of my family. I no longer have a culture, I no longer have a people. The church doesn't want me, because I keep asking questions - questions it taught me to ask at its colleges and in its youth groups. And my secular friends, even those who are passionate about social justice and change, don't want me because I pray, don't smoke, drink, do drugs, sleep around, and I read my Bible and talk about Jesus. Who are my people?"

Paul could find praise even in chains. I hope your not that tough on people. It seems the fault lies in this persons heart in their reaction as there are many kind and compassionate people in the church.

Did this person give any examples of what questions were rejected by the elders of the church and what this person saw as offensive in the church as "offensive" is a strong rejection. Burden sometimes but offensive?

As far as who Jesus considered His family it was those who heard the word of God and put it into practice. (A way of life not a field trip to feed the poor once a year) Not that you state that. Thats my answer for who is the Lords people and for clarity I don't set aside the need for Christ Jesus for eternal life when I state that.

My faith allows me to smoke and drink. I don't but I could. Though sexual immorality is unlawful as I read the NT. (Not free to sin) But the NT message is my righteousness was credited by faith In Jesus Christ who is Lord of all.



Randy

[Paul DeBaufer]

Paul could find praise even in chains. I hope your not that tough on people. It seems the fault lies in this persons heart in their reaction as there are many kind and compassionate people in the church.

Did this person give any examples of what questions were rejected by the elders of the church and what this person saw as offensive in the church as "offensive" is a strong rejection. Burden sometimes but offensive?

As far as who Jesus considered His family it was those who heard the word of God and put it into practice. (A way of life not a field trip to feed the poor once a year) Not that you state that. Thats my answer for who is the Lords people and for clarity I don't set aside the need for Christ Jesus for eternal life when I state that.

My faith allows me to smoke and drink. I don't but I could. Though sexual immorality is unlawful as I read the NT. (Not free to sin) But the NT message is my righteousness was credited by faith In Jesus Christ who is Lord of all.



Randy

Herein lies the complaint. Far too often the church is see as doing mission to others. Kind of like jewelry, something to be worn rather than a way of life. Seems that young people, and many not so young people, find the status quo as inauthentic, disingenuous because we oft see only the vacation slide shows from people who go on yearly missions trips, including the youth groups, yet don't see the church actively involved in helping the homeless in our own communities. Sure many churches help collect for some community food bank, but that is often seen as throwing money at the situation so as to not have to get involved. I am not saying or implying that this is the situation at every church, someone is running these community, interfaith food banks, but it happens in many. The mission of Jesus is treated like a piece of jewelry, "Oh look at what good we are doing." Yet the heart of it is lacking.

[Sarah Smith]

As to churches interested in closing the deal?

OH THAT WE HAD SOME HERE!

Amazes me that we continually expect folks to become "disciples" and "radical for Christ" when they have never been born again.

Just amazes me.

[Steven Burton]

I am actually a strong believer in the institution and organization of the Church. I have a hard time with those in my generation who want to dismiss organized religion just because it is organized and put the total focus on personal relationship. I find there needs to be some kind of balance between the two. I actually love the idea of organized religion because it give you so much more to work with than just personal feelings and experience. It gives you an abundance of history and tradition. Beside I think there is something to be said about organizing out of chaos anyways. We developed from a pretty organized religion even if they don't have doctrines set in place like Christianity has done over the centuries.

[Bob Hunter]

Actually l left because it is overly masculine. Among other things.

Edit:The masculine thing has to with being married to someone who is called to ministry and is a woman and on top of that felt rejected by pastoral sermons at our last church. She sits through the church her brother and mother go to but does has some problem with it. But likes the fact that is makes her mom and brother think about the same things we learned to question or learn at SNU. My other problem is i do not like it when a pastor feels the need to talk about depression and has no experience or true understanding of what is going on. If it was as easy as flipping a freaking switch I would have done that 3 years ago. Some how Jesus taking the penalty for my sins should make me over joyed and not depressed. I mean some days I wish I could take those who see it that way give them all the chemical imbalances in my brain and then watch them go crazy when they think they are having a heart attack or trouble breathing or as psychologist call it panic attack. If I could flip a switch I would. I would love to stop having panic attacks once a week. I would love to stop being able to feel nauseated periodically though out the day due to anxiety. I would love to be able to hold down a proper job and not have to deal with depression and anxiety that get me so bad I have trouble leaving the house due to anxiety. Or be able to drive in traffic with out having a panic attack. You want to know why I left the church tell the church to stop treating me as a sinner because some how genetically I ended up depression and anxiety. Tell the church I have had many crisis situation and prayed so much and cried so much due this brain that I could cover a house in square feet in tears. Tell the church I am not an outsider I have considered myself a Christian ever since I started developing a personal relationship with Christ at the age of 8. Tell the church that because I have suffer from these issue I an not demon possessed. Tell the church that I am broken been broken over and over again have suffered much in my 28 years. Have suffered from depression for over 10 years and still get looked at as something is wrong with me because I have trouble controlling chemicals in my brain. Until there is a church that can accepts the suffering of the broken and those who consider themselves Christian but are still in a situation of needing healing. Maybe I could come to a church like that. Maybe I could get restoration and healing if the church didn't treat me as a sinner because I am depressed and not over joyed. Maybe Just maybe.

Steve,

I'm sad to hear there are places of worship and community that perpetuate such a lack of understanding. I value our friendship Steve and I am proud of you taking such a bold stance.

There is a danger when the Church becomes oversexed and undersexed. I wouldn't blame this on the masculine drive of a the pastor, but on his ignorance and immaturity. Every pastor would benefit from reading a secular book I have on my shelf: "What to do when someone you love is depressed." by Mitch & Susan Golant. I find Christian books on the subject a bit too prescriptive and lacking compassion. This book gives clinical advice that really works. Anyway, all the best to you Steve, keep pumping iron my friend. You are overcoming more obstacles than you know.

Your friend,

Bob