Does leaving the church = leaving the faith?

[Mike Schutz]

I have spent much of the last 25 years studying and thinking about adolescent and young adult spiritual formation. Over the last few years, the academic work of sociologists such as Christian Smith (Soul Searching and Souls in Transition) and more popular writers such as David Kinnaman (You Lost Me and unChristian) have documented the unique characteristics of this generation of young adults who are leaving the church. Some return, some live on the margins of the institutionalized church, and some actively reject the faith.

One of the frustrations I have with Kinnaman is his equating leaving the church with leaving the faith. He sees the exodus of young adults from the church as a failure of disciple-making.

As I spend time talking with young adults, especially articulate, well-educated young people, a theme I hear is that they are not rejecting Christ - they are rejecting the institutional church. Some have gone so far as to say that the only way they can continue to follow Christ with any integrity is to leave the church.

What has been your experience with this conversation? What should be the response of churches, pastors, youth leaders, parents, and others to what seems to be an authentic desire to follow Jesus while rejecting the institutions of the faith.

(Please understand - I desire to approach this from a pastoral perspective. I know I can't control the conversation, but if your only experience with the spiritual formation of contemporary adolescents and young adults is that they wait on you at Starbucks, perhaps you should refrain from responding. Like those who pontificate about abortion yet do not know a woman who has struggled with the decision, or who speak with eloquence about gay marriage but don't personally know any same-sex couples, or who have strong opinions about the immigration debate but have never had a conversation with an undocumented person, you may have wonderful opinions - but I would like to first read the responses of those who are on the front lines of loving and sharing Christ with folks under the age of 30.)

[John Kennedy]

Glad it's the 'small-c' church you're talking about. (At least I hope it is.)

[Paul DeBaufer]

I was at a board meeting for a prison ministry I helped found. We had a dinner and the former CEO, one of the other two co-founders, brought his wife, their roommate and a goddaughter who was 16 or 22, who can tell? A bright, articulate young girl and, not unlike many her age, very left leaning politically. I asked her about faith. She told me that she loves Jesus, but doesn't and won't go to church. She sees the church as inauthentic, exclusive, hypocritical institution that serves only to indoctrinate and inhibit real thinking. I do not know how much experience she has had with church in the past. This girl's impression seems to fit the impressions I get from young women who have attended Bob Jones University and/or grew up in Independent Fundamentalist Baptist churches.

The other week had a young girl bring her car into our vocational training shop for a brake job. I've known this girl for about 7 years, since she was 15 or 16. Hannah has been Goth all that time. Many people in the churches of her youth didn't think she could be a Christian, yes, because of her look. So, while she was there I had a conversation with her. She is very much a Christian. Her hair and lips are no longer black, she has gone with a beautiful variety of purples, the piercings and tattoos remain. She attends church where she doesn't feel judged, the judgment she faced as a teen. But, she has some of the same complaints as the girl from the other day, judgmental, inauthentic, exclusive. Hannah didn't mention indoctrination, but did mention radical inclusion.

So, I told these girls about my small group that is loosely based on Ikon Belfast. That we are artistic and in the sharing of art we are growing closer and becoming involved in each other's lives. That we are carving out space to be who we are, a space where it is safe to remove the masks we may otherwise feel we need to wear. They seemed to like this idea. The one lives in Eugene, OR and was only visiting. The other hasn't come by on a Monday night, yet.

Several of the Christian young people I have talked to that don't attend church or church groups cite scheduling conflicts. Most of them are working and going to college full time. I don't know if that is legitimate, I just take them at their word.

[Ian Gentles]

First of all the church is needed for one's faith to stay whole, to be encouraged, "Forsake not the gathering of yourselfs together" etc.

In my question raised in another thread I seek to look at what Kingdom culture should be? Young people give up on the church, often for good reasons in their thinking. They do see hypocracy, vanity, etc etc. They are looking for genuine christianity and often dont see it. Children of those in ministry often see what is done, happened to their parents, and while honouring their parents, have lost all respect for the people calling themselfs christians.
I feel that many who leave the church still yearn for sincere christianity, but feel that what they have experianced isnt it!

[Ryan Scott]

In general I think young people are seeking authentic community and they just don't find that within Christian congregations.

As we embark on this new ministry/life venture here in Middletown, DE I am constantly struggling with the desire to build an authentic community and the strong call I feel to build an authentic community centered on Jesus Christ. I just don't know of any models of the latter, while there's plenty of examples of the former all around. I don't think I could be a part of a community without pushing the centrality of Christ, but I'm skeptical that anyone would actually want to be a part of a community specifically proclaiming Christ.

I will continue to pursue it, but God has a lot of convincing to do before I'll really believe it will happen.

[Jeremy D. Scott]

Thanks for the thread. This is on my heart and mind a lot lately.

I heard Craig Groeschel speak the other day for the first time and once he stopped talking about himself, he had some good words along these lines. As he spoke to the younger generation, he encouraged their aspirations to idealism in changing the world but denied their feelings of entitlement (he also blamed the older generations for leading them to said feelings). I think he's right. I've seen it in myself. As we say at North Street, we're very passionate about movements, causes, and alleviating the suffering of people...but mostly only for a few minutes. (We've got our music, superhero movies, and Macbooks to get back to, afterall. )

I seem to have a number of friends and acquaintances on Facebook that are particularly angry and vile toward the Church. I have sometimes participated as one of them. And more recently, I often still do in my own heart. But I have become a bit perplexed and admittedly annoyed with this attitude of late. The more well-known names like Rachel Held Evans or Matthew Paul Turner just seem to be looking for more hits. I don't deny their difficult experience in the Church, but I do deny much of the way they handle it. Proper lamenting is okay. Perpetual lambasting is not. And the people I actually know just seem to be generally angry rather than seeking to be a prophetic voice.

I mean really...we're going to declare that the Church failed less than 24 hours after the fact? And we're going to over-generalize that the whole Church failed? How does MPT come to this conclusion so quickly? Was he present in every situation? It seems to me that he's simply judging the Church upon what he sees in the media (which he probably otherwise says he detests...yet uses for his own reporting) and social media (which is really just the megaphone of people who are upset and mostly only feeds the monster it creates).

People in the Church have done and do some really stupid things, denominations are often abominations, and those who are called Christians often act completely other than Christlike. But to those for whom this seems to be a surprise, it could be concluded that they either haven't read the Bible, studied Church history, or both. Our story and history don't excuse the wrong actions of Christians, but those actions don't make right the self-righteous diatribes of those who think they know everything better. (Father, forgive me.)

The action of leaving the Church in and of itself seems to be participating in the individualistic culture that these people frequently chide. Quite often, they appear to me to be acting as individualistic as the actions they are trying to speak to. A continued ecclesiological question I have even for myself is: Can you even really leave the Church? (Can you leave your family? If your mother has been a whore, is she yet not your mother? Tough question, but it's the story of God's people.) Just as often, it may just be a defense against and excuse to run from the hard, patient work of Jesus to change the Church and speak a gracious-prophetic voice for the means of transformation.

I'm not really sure if they're "leaving the faith." That's ultimately not up to me. But they are certainly departing from the hope and faith that Jesus had in this pathetic group of people. In Jesus' words and actions, we see him saying, "Yes...woe to them. Now I'm going to go and die for them." While there may be times to leave a local church, the truth of the matter in our story is that Jesus never left the people of God.

And that people killed him.

[John O Comstock]

What is always missing in this conversation is what does the scripture teach about being able to follow Christ and be totally disconnected from the Church. Where is there scriptural basis for such and idea? Honest study of scripture reveals it’s impossible to separate the Church from Christ. The Church is the Body of Christ. Mt 16:18 And I tell you –“I will build my church.” To separate from the Church is to separate from Christ. Also the bible makes it clear some organization and other things that should exist in the Church. Eph 3:10 “His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known” Eph 5:25b Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. The issue is simple those who claim they can follow Christ and reject the Church simply refuse submission to the scriptures and to Christ. Think how this will open the door for other misguided thinking. Now we always should teach the Church can be full of false teaching and problems. [very scriptural] In the 7 churches of Revelations Jesus pointed out errors and faults of 5 out of 7 that needed correction. Certainly there is great hypocrisy sometimes in the Church but that cannot be used as an excuse to reject the Church. In America we have to many choices of Churches surely one can find someplace to be connected to the Church.

[Jeremy D. Scott]

Some things that have helped me stay with Christ's Church:

• Jesus
  
• People who live as Christ within the Church yet acknowledge that the Church has a lot of need for transformation. I'll refrain from names at the moment but this group ranges from a seminary president to a GS to divinity school professors/writers to my 85 year old grandfather who I often totally disagree with but who is willing to have half of his traditional sanctuary turned into a cafe if it just might mean that it'll reach people for Jesus.
  
• Post-liberalism
  
• Reading the story of the people of God in scripture. Weeping. Realizing grace is so important. Weeping some more.
  
• Studying church history. Weeping. Realizing that grace must be it. Weeping some more.
  
• Tim Suttle's book, An Evangelical Social Gospel? Finding God's Story in the Midst of Extremes
  
• Churchmen (& women) in the old-fashioned sense of this word
  
• Stanley Hauerwas - at face value, often appears to be the vilest of them all, but from whom I've learned that ultimately, we can't leave the Church, but that instead it is our hope to work with Jesus for transformation. He says, like Jesus, "You oughta stick with the people who harmed you."
  
• And of course: Jesus, who charged this pathetic group of people with carrying on his work of love, just days after they denied him, ran from him, and abandoned him.

[John Reilly]

Mike, great question. John Wesley had strong feelings about this question as you know. "Holy solitaries is a phrase no more consistent with the Gospel than holy adulterers. The Gospel of Christ knows no religion but social; no holiness, but social holiness." John Wesley The church is the body of Christ. The great miracle of the church is that we as a community of faith function together to be an example of Christ and to display the fruit for the Holy Spirit as a body. Wesley used the term, "dissipation" meaning the opposite of participation and it is a lot like "backsliding." I believe Christians are called by God to participate together as a community of faith, the church, and to live out the great commandment, the great community and the great commission. So perhaps initially leaving the church may not be leaving the faith but I think people who stay away from the church long enough suffer from false doctrines and false theologies as they "make God in their own image."

[Eric Frey]

This is a wonderful thread. Thank you for raising the question. I only wish I had something meaningful to contribute...

[John Reilly]

I am hopeful concerning young adults attending church. One young couple, who began attending a few years ago on Easter Sunday, just celebrated their 1st wedding anniversary and birth of their second child. Their four year old daughter attends our church regularly and one sunday as dad dropped her off for our VBS she said, "You go up stairs and learn with the adults." Another young couple just celebrated their 1st wedding anniversary and birth of their third child. Mom grew up in our church but dad has no church background. So interesting to me to have this couple in church and to watch as God works in their hearts and in their family. Their children love church.

[Kyle Borger]

The issue with today's youth is the same issue with today's adults with one primary difference. The adults attend church based on habit and because they think it is what they should do so that they can go to Heaven. Young people who take the time to explore the scriptures do not find requirements for salvation other than Jesus. They see the church as an organization that creates rules and many of those rules just don't jive with what they see in scripture. They also observe behavior in the church that doesn't fit scripture.

They fail to recognize that the church is a living organism filled with imperfect people who also need Jesus. They have been told that they need to do certain things to be like the people in the church and then they see people in the church act anti-Jesus and in their eyes it causes the church to lose its credibility regarding truth.

There are many youth who desire to find Jesus and believe that they have to get away from the sin that is in the church to do it. Others simply use it as an excuse to claim Christ and live as they desire without being held accountable.

Yes, church (the community of believers) is necessary (in most cases) for long term spiritual health. The community of believers help speak for Jesus and help us see God at work in our lives and in the community. However, the church does need fixed. I'm not saying we need to purify the church by removing the sinners. Quite the opposite. We need to stop suggesting that everyone in church is perfect or can be perfect on their own. We also need to change our focus from "me" and make our focus be on God.

As I reflect upon the church I have experienced it has brought me great frustration. God has called me to reach the lost. But until recently the churches I was involved with focused on teaching the Christians and making sure the Christians did the right things. I witnessed everyone sitting and being concerned about music or decor or coffee instead of being desperate to find ways to tell others about Jesus. If we have found the truth why is it that we are not willing to sacrifice everything we have to tell others? Why is it that churches spend so much time and money on socials and committees and the like but spend almost no money out in the community. (Generalization, I know, but it fits my impression of church.)

Do we wonder why our youth who decide to find an authentic relationship with Jesus would be turned off by the church? How many of our churches are any different then the Jewish synagogue? How many times have we watch our adults respond to the kids much like a pharisee responded to Jesus? How many times have you experienced someone being very concerned about something that makes them uncomfortable or that they feel is wrong all the while doing absolutely nothing for the woman next door with 2 kids and no husband?

Church is necessary, but if we want to be relevant with our youth and if we want to actually see movement within our adults, we must be a church that practices what Jesus teaches and is willing to lay it all down on the line. We have adults who are very concerned about us preaching the sanctification message. They view themselves as sanctified when they are really petrified. They fail to see that a sanctified person doesn't sit and contemplate on what sins they have not committed. The sanctified person is out investing in lives and living as an example of Christ's love for us. What I am seeking is a true Holiness church that teaches us how to live for Christ everyday. That teaches us how to really be Holy and demands that we give everything we have to Jesus and that we sacrifice everything including our lives if necessary to follow Christ.

That is what I see as the issue. Youth are ready and willing to give their lives to something. Why should they give it to a church that claims to change the world but actually sits in decay while complaining about everything the youth are doing?

I am fortunate to be a part of a church that is changing. It is slow and hard, but we do see God moving and people becoming more willing to sacrifice in the name of Jesus.

[Mike Schutz]

What is always missing in this conversation is what does the scripture teach about being able to follow Christ and be totally disconnected from the Church. Where is there scriptural basis for such and idea? Honest study of scripture reveals it’s impossible to separate the Church from Christ. The Church is the Body of Christ. Mt 16:18 And I tell you –“I will build my church.” To separate from the Church is to separate from Christ. Also the bible makes it clear some organization and other things that should exist in the Church. Eph 3:10 “His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known” Eph 5:25b Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. The issue is simple those who claim they can follow Christ and reject the Church simply refuse submission to the scriptures and to Christ. Think how this will open the door for other misguided thinking. Now we always should teach the Church can be full of false teaching and problems. [very scriptural] In the 7 churches of Revelations Jesus pointed out errors and faults of 5 out of 7 that needed correction. Certainly there is great hypocrisy sometimes in the Church but that cannot be used as an excuse to reject the Church. In America we have to many choices of Churches surely one can find someplace to be connected to the Church.

John - This is why I raised it as a pastoral concern, and not a theological one.

Honestly, with the young people I talk to every day, their response to your comment would be:

"Okay, church - start living according to the Sermon on the Mount, and then we will consider following the much less clear teachings in scripture that you offer tying the 21st century institutions to the fellowship of believers encouraged in God's word."

A battle of dueling Bible quotes is not really helpful when you are trying to encourage 21 year olds to not give up on a church that they know from the inside out, and find not only lacking, but painful. As one expressed it, "when your dad regularly cheats on and beats up your mom, refuses to practice what he preaches, and still justifies his behavior by saying ' I'm your father, so you have to obey me,' the healthy thing to do is leave the room and not come back."

[Hans Deventer]

I used to think that the church should be a society of saints. No more. If there is an image, it would be much closer to be a hospital for sinners, and it is often hard to tell who is patient and who is staff.

That means that we all solely live by grace. In my view, becoming radically "graced" churches is the only way we can live in integrity with the obvious and undeniable fact that we mess up big time.

[Billy Cox]

Mike, thanks for raising this topic. Some may dismiss it as something we have discussed many times, but I am convinced that one never steps into the same river twice.

I have spent much of the last 25 years studying and thinking about adolescent and young adult spiritual formation. Over the last few years, the academic work of sociologists such as Christian Smith (Soul Searching and Souls in Transition) and more popular writers such as David Kinnaman (You Lost Me and unChristian) have documented the unique characteristics of this generation of young adults who are leaving the church. Some return, some live on the margins of the institutionalized church, and some actively reject the faith.

I recently read unChristian. I found his research findings extremely interesting but I was profoundly disappointed with his very 'small' interpretation of the research.

Like Thom Rainer, Kinnaman looks face to face into some hard realities, but ultimately he is an institutional apologist. They have eyes, but they don't see squat.

One of the frustrations I have with Kinnaman is his equating leaving the church with leaving the faith. He sees the exodus of young adults from the church as a failure of disciple-making.

I argued with Kinnaman's conclusions to the extent that I almost quit reading the book - a rarity for me.

As I spend time talking with young adults, especially articulate, well-educated young people, a theme I hear is that they are not rejecting Christ - they are rejecting the institutional church. Some have gone so far as to say that the only way they can continue to follow Christ with any integrity is to leave the church.

The defensive and often dismissive responses I see in these sorts of conversations only serve to confirm the harsh critique offered by many young people (and not so young people like myself).

Someone as recently as yesterday has suggested that I hate the church and see only negativity among 'the saints'...an interesting irony to say the least. I take it as a sad confirmation that the critique offered by those with the courage to leave 'the building' are spot on.

What has been your experience with this conversation? What should be the response of churches, pastors, youth leaders, parents, and others to what seems to be an authentic desire to follow Jesus while rejecting the institutions of the faith.

Mike this is a good question, and one that I'm still trying to answer. I'm not convinced that those within the institution are capable of seeing anything beyond a self-serving conclusion, but I keep hoping.

I am intrigued by this phrase, 'institutions of the faith'.

Two observations:

1. The word 'the' is a powerful modifier. When we put 'the' in front of something, it becomes an object or a thing to be used, harnessed, protected, marketed, packaged, and transmitted. Someone who refers to their spouse as 'the wife' or 'the husband' has demeaned that person. Likewise with 'the' faith. What if we stopped worrying about 'the faith' and try instead to live by faith?

2. If we live our faith - as Kinnaman calls for, but can't get beyond his organizational blinders - then institutions become a means to an end, not an end in themselves. The institution properly understood is a tool or method for promoting faith, but is not the sole venue in which faith can be realized.

[John Reilly]

The essential mission of the church is to protect and to proclaim the doctrine of Christ as fully God and fully human. This incredible reality makes leaving the church unthinkable.

[Gene Tatsch]

...One of the frustrations I have with Kinnaman is his equating leaving the church with leaving the faith. He sees the exodus of young adults from the church as a failure of disciple-making.
... a theme I hear is that they are not rejecting Christ - they are rejecting the institutional church. Some have gone so far as to say that the only way they can continue to follow Christ with any integrity is to leave the church.
What has been your experience with this conversation? What should be the response of churches, pastors, youth leaders, parents, and others to what seems to be an authentic desire to follow Jesus while rejecting the institutions of the faith.
(Please understand -...but I would like to first read the responses of those who are on the front lines of loving and sharing Christ with folks under the age of 30.)

Well, I'm waaaay not under 30! So it may not necessarily be an age-specific phenomena. But my wife & I did leave the organized/institutional church while actively working to find the church of Jesus. When we study the character of God in Scripture & nature, we can't align it with the functional goals of most congregations we've encountered. And this is of long duration.

1. God clearly wants us to 1) love Him with our whole being, 2) love our neighbor as ourself, 3) love the brothers as Christ loves His church, and 4) make disciples.
2. The focus of most of the institutional church organizations we encounter is on 1) keeping the physical plant in good shape, 2) paying the bills & staff, 3) keeping programs functioning to increase attendance & funding, 4) cement the power of the leadership structure.

While this (even to me) seems a brutal assessment, I am backed into this corner if I'm to be honest. And my terrible choice is whether I choose to follow God or man (exactly what infuriated Jesus).
So, no, a Jesus-follower does not leave the church of Jesus - it just takes more intentional, more unfamiliar actions than are culturally comfortable.

I submit that the issue should be:
=> "is the institutional church doing the right things the right way?".
And I've had to answer (with exceptions): "no" &

[Gene Tatsch]

We need to be very careful in use of the concept "church".

NazNetters seem to have a somewhat common definition of the word.
However, there are many organizations that have the word "church" in their name with little link to Jesus.
And there are many "church of the ___" existing for purely commercial reasons.
So: of which church do we speak of leaving?

[Paul DeBaufer]

The issue with today's youth is the same issue with today's adults with one primary difference. The adults attend church based on habit and because they think it is what they should do so that they can go to Heaven. Young people who take the time to explore the scriptures do not find requirements for salvation other than Jesus. They see the church as an organization that creates rules and many of those rules just don't jive with what they see in scripture. They also observe behavior in the church that doesn't fit scripture.

They fail to recognize that the church is a living organism filled with imperfect people who also need Jesus. They have been told that they need to do certain things to be like the people in the church and then they see people in the church act anti-Jesus and in their eyes it causes the church to lose its credibility regarding truth.

There are many youth who desire to find Jesus and believe that they have to get away from the sin that is in the church to do it. Others simply use it as an excuse to claim Christ and live as they desire without being held accountable.

Yes, church (the community of believers) is necessary (in most cases) for long term spiritual health. The community of believers help speak for Jesus and help us see God at work in our lives and in the community. However, the church does need fixed. I'm not saying we need to purify the church by removing the sinners. Quite the opposite. We need to stop suggesting that everyone in church is perfect or can be perfect on their own. We also need to change our focus from "me" and make our focus be on God.

As I reflect upon the church I have experienced it has brought me great frustration. God has called me to reach the lost. But until recently the churches I was involved with focused on teaching the Christians and making sure the Christians did the right things. I witnessed everyone sitting and being concerned about music or decor or coffee instead of being desperate to find ways to tell others about Jesus. If we have found the truth why is it that we are not willing to sacrifice everything we have to tell others? Why is it that churches spend so much time and money on socials and committees and the like but spend almost no money out in the community. (Generalization, I know, but it fits my impression of church.)

Do we wonder why our youth who decide to find an authentic relationship with Jesus would be turned off by the church? How many of our churches are any different then the Jewish synagogue? How many times have we watch our adults respond to the kids much like a pharisee responded to Jesus? How many times have you experienced someone being very concerned about something that makes them uncomfortable or that they feel is wrong all the while doing absolutely nothing for the woman next door with 2 kids and no husband?

Church is necessary, but if we want to be relevant with our youth and if we want to actually see movement within our adults, we must be a church that practices what Jesus teaches and is willing to lay it all down on the line. We have adults who are very concerned about us preaching the sanctification message. They view themselves as sanctified when they are really petrified. They fail to see that a sanctified person doesn't sit and contemplate on what sins they have not committed. The sanctified person is out investing in lives and living as an example of Christ's love for us. What I am seeking is a true Holiness church that teaches us how to live for Christ everyday. That teaches us how to really be Holy and demands that we give everything we have to Jesus and that we sacrifice everything including our lives if necessary to follow Christ.

That is what I see as the issue. Youth are ready and willing to give their lives to something. Why should they give it to a church that claims to change the world but actually sits in decay while complaining about everything the youth are doing?

I am fortunate to be a part of a church that is changing. It is slow and hard, but we do see God moving and people becoming more willing to sacrifice in the name of Jesus.

Thank you Kyle for this eloquent, well thought, and true post.

[Ryan Scott]

In addition to my earlier post, I think lots of young people need some real life experience before realizing that much of the protectionist, secretive, sinful, ignorance endemic within individual congregations is really about as authentic as it gets - and that we find the life Christ promised in giving ourselves to the other broken people desperately clinging to the hope Christ brings.

[Paul DeBaufer]

I just have to wonder when we engage in conversations with young people, and even not so young people, who love Jesus yet have left the institutional church, if we are really interested in what they have to say. Are we really listening to them? Or are we just looking for an opportunity to tell them, in one way or another, that they really should come back to the church. Do we really take the time and energy, yes it takes a great deal of energy, to listen, truly listen without looking for the opportunity to insert our church apologetics? If we search ourselves and find that maybe we could be listening better, then maybe that is the place to start.

I wonder if we haven't been catering to young families with young children for so long that our thinking hasn't become boxed in such. Sort of developed a hermeneutic for talking with and listening to people based on our catering to the young, 30-somethings with x-number of children. We need to learn to listen to each in their own right, not through the lens of some "focus" or targeted demographic. I think I've heard both young and old complain that they feel left out of the fellowship of the church because the focus is so concentrated on the young families.

[Sarah Smith]

We have a family member in the mid thirties who has dropped out of church and blames it on inauthentic worship, legalism, judgementalism, failure to properly care for the planet, being pro life but anti welfare, etc.

But here is the rub: while deriding the sinfulness of the church, she chooses to try to incorporate Christianity, Buddhism, and Hinduism in her faith system, to co habit serially with men, and generally rebel against scripture any way she can whether it is in extremely revealing clothing, extremely foul language, promiscuous behavior, or whatever.

We continue to try to treat her with dignity and respect, although we do absent ourselves from her company when not to do so compromises our integrity.

We continue to try to live the faith in front of her.

We pray for her.

But we also realize those outside the church are just as capable of those inside of failing to take the beam out of their own eyes before trying to take a splinter out of ours.

We don't let her judgements of us, our church, our lifestyle, our worship, our clothing choices, music choices, political choices, or whatever influence how we live our lives.

We do continue, if she challenges us as to "why won't you" or "why do you" to gently speak the truth in love.

We understand that as long as she is sold out lock stock and barrel to rebellion and sin, she will not hear anything we have to say or approve of anything we do.

So be it. We take her to the one who holds the hearts of kings in His hands, to turn them where He will. We ask the Holy Spirit to intervene, and then leave how He chooses to do it up to Him.

We pray a high and easy bottom for her and continue to love and enjoy God.

But there is simply no way we can EVER meet her expectations of what a Christian ought to be while she is running from God herself.

[Paul DeBaufer]

We have a family member in the mid thirties who has dropped out of church and blames it on inauthentic worship, legalism, judgementalism, failure to properly care for the planet, being pro life but anti welfare, etc.

But here is the rub: while deriding the sinfulness of the church, she chooses to try to incorporate Christianity, Buddhism, and Hinduism in her faith system, to co habit serially with men, and generally rebel against scripture any way she can whether it is in extremely revealing clothing, extremely foul language, promiscuous behavior, or whatever.

We continue to try to treat her with dignity and respect, although we do absent ourselves from her company when not to do so compromises our integrity.

We continue to try to live the faith in front of her.

We pray for her.

But we also realize those outside the church are just as capable of those inside of failing to take the beam out of their own eyes before trying to take a splinter out of ours.

We don't let her judgements of us, our church, our lifestyle, our worship, our clothing choices, music choices, political choices, or whatever influence how we live our lives.

We do continue, if she challenges us as to "why won't you" or "why do you" to gently speak the truth in love.

We understand that as long as she is sold out lock stock and barrel to rebellion and sin, she will not hear anything we have to say or approve of anything we do.

So be it. We take her to the one who holds the hearts of kings in His hands, to turn them where He will. We ask the Holy Spirit to intervene, and then leave how He chooses to do it up to Him.

We pray a high and easy bottom for her and continue to love and enjoy God.

But there is simply no way we can EVER meet her expectations of what a Christian ought to be while she is running from God herself.

I am sorry to hear of your family member. It must be difficult. I will keep you and her in my prayers.

[Marsha Lynn]

I'll second those who have expressed appreciation for the question, Mike. I have been focused on young adult ministry for the past eight years and watched several of them drift away from the organized church. One in particular is away from the church but close enough for me to be semi-aware of his living.

John Reilly quoted John Wesley as rejecting the idea of "holy solitaries." Whether young adults leaving the church are leaving the faith, I don't know, but I know they are not leaving society and moving into a monastery. The young man I mentioned is not living a solitary life in any sense of the word. He puts a high priority on spending time with friends and family. His friends are likewise young people who have faith backgrounds but who aren't necessarily finding a place for church in their lives.

It makes me wonder: Is there a possibility that the community young people with spiritual interests experience together is a form of church?

I also wonder: Are the people sitting in the church pews on Sunday morning listening to another sermon further along on their spiritual journey than the young adults home in bed after spending quality time with friends on Saturday night? There's much lament about the lack of Bible literacy among Christians, the statistics that show the divorce rate among church attenders to be the same as or higher than that of the culture as a whole, and the lack of differentiation in other areas between active church members and "the world." How are young Christians who have dropped out of a church that offends their postmodern sensitivities less Christian than those who have stayed?

I would love to see my young friend on Sunday mornings, but I am inclined to think that he would not be significantly more spiritual if he were attending church on a regular basis. He might simply be less true to his values. He might also be worse off for regular exposure to a manifestation of the Christian religion that is sometimes far removed from the life Jesus taught and demonstrated, and which he finds offensive.

As I watch the young people of my acquaintance nurture their relationships outside the church, it makes me wonder at the idea that leaving the church means no longer being in healthy relationships with other Christians. How many relationships does it take with how much "church talk" going on in the midst of the fellowship to avoid being either a "holy solitary" or a pagan?

Marsha

[John O Comstock]

Our goal is to make heaven. Jesus wants us to go to heaven. Satan’s goal is for us to miss heaven. Satan doesn’t care who or what tactic he uses. In my years one of the number one tactic’s Satan uses is simply to use either the a carnal Christens or a phony Christians as an excuse to not obey God. Its one of Satan’s oldest lies to use another person as an excuse to not obey God myself. I’ve personally experienced huge pain at the feet of either carnal or phony Christians in the Church but in the end I had to accept God allowed it to test me and used it to reveal to me my own great lack yet. It’s how we learn holiness. How could I claim to be a follower of Christ and not love them and care about there souls and try to help them find the error of there way instead of being selfish and abandon them. I’ve witnessed the same with countless others and it will never stop as long as Satan is successful in getting us to sympathize with ourselves oh poor me it’s the Churches fault. The Church is so bad it shouldn’t happen/ it should not happen in the Church. Why does anybody think this? We should teach the truth. It’s totally scriptural the Church will have many false teachers and followers and we have to discern the true from the false. Jesus said “Many” who claim to serve him and to there surprise will be cast into hell. Jesus said the tares will grow with the wheat. The Church with all of its problems is still the best thing in this world. The Church is how I found salvation in Christ, the Church taught me the way of Christ and it’s currently helping me find the strength to finish the journey. I owe my life to the Church of Jesus. I’ve never seen one of these Lone rangers lead anybody to Christ. If they do they will have to become the Church to help the new baby grow. When they take responsible for others they will see how truly difficult it is to live the Christian life themselves in community with others. Who of us would know anything about Christ if it were not the work of the Church someplace in our history.

[Billy Cox]

John Reilly quoted John Wesley as rejecting the idea of "holy solitaries." Whether young adults leaving the church are leaving the faith, I don't know, but I know they are not leaving society and moving into a monastery. The young man I mentioned is not living a solitary life in any sense of the word. He puts a high priority on spending time with friends and family. His friends are likewise young people who have faith backgrounds but who aren't necessarily finding a place for church in their lives.

It makes me wonder: Is there a possibility that the community young people with spiritual interests experience together is a form of church?

I also wonder: Are the people sitting in the church pews on Sunday morning listening to another sermon further along on their spiritual journey than the young adults home in bed after spending quality time with friends on Saturday night?

Good observations. I continue to be dismayed when good church folk write these people off as lone rangers or solitaries; as if the local congregation has exclusive rights to the Holy Spirit and the saving work of Jesus Christ.

Does anybody believe that our disapproval is going to have any redemptive value?

In my experience, there are very important benefits to being part of a congregation, but the most touted selling points (avoiding hell, doctrinal integrity, accountability) don't figure prominently into it.

[Paul DeBaufer]

I'll second those who have expressed appreciation for the question, Mike. I have been focused on young adult ministry for the past eight years and watched several of them drift away from the organized church. One in particular is away from the church but close enough for me to be semi-aware of his living.

John Reilly quoted John Wesley as rejecting the idea of "holy solitaries." Whether young adults leaving the church are leaving the faith, I don't know, but I know they are not leaving society and moving into a monastery. The young man I mentioned is not living a solitary life in any sense of the word. He puts a high priority on spending time with friends and family. His friends are likewise young people who have faith backgrounds but who aren't necessarily finding a place for church in their lives.

It makes me wonder: Is there a possibility that the community young people with spiritual interests experience together is a form of church?

I also wonder: Are the people sitting in the church pews on Sunday morning listening to another sermon further along on their spiritual journey than the young adults home in bed after spending quality time with friends on Saturday night? There's much lament about the lack of Bible literacy among Christians, the statistics that show the divorce rate among church attenders to be the same as or higher than that of the culture as a whole, and the lack of differentiation in other areas between active church members and "the world." How are young Christians who have dropped out of a church that offends their postmodern sensitivities less Christian than those who have stayed?

I would love to see my young friend on Sunday mornings, but I am inclined to think that he would not be significantly more spiritual if he were attending church on a regular basis. He might simply be less true to his values. He might also be worse off for regular exposure to a manifestation of the Christian religion that is sometimes far removed from the life Jesus taught and demonstrated and which he finds offensive.

As I watch the young people of my acquaintance nurture their relationships outside the church, it makes me wonder at the idea that leaving the church means no longer being in healthy relationships with other Christians. How many relationships does it take with how much "church talk" going on in the midst of the fellowship to avoid being either a "holy solitary" or a pagan?

Marsha

I think that this is a distinct possibility. Maybe not for us, but maybe for them.

[Todd Erickson]

During the week of CFA madness, I repeatedly saw people say (usually on facebook) "this is the last straw, I'm leaving the church". The response was almost always something between the above verse about not forsaking the gathering of believers, and the common statement that our Faith must be in Christ, rather than men.

Tripp Fuller observed the other day that many kids grow up through sunday school, children's church, teen group, college group, maybe singles group.

But the moment they're married, they're in with the 60 year olds, unless it's a particularly young church, and those people may have no cultural connections to them, and may take things for granted which are loathesome to them.

We had a fellow at church to see somebody's son get Baptized two weeks ago, and he had this thing about how, when we read our bibles, the Spirit speaks to us and tells us what we're reading, and thus we know what the bible says...and nobody can really question us on that.

Despite the Quadrilateral, I would venture that this most UnWesleyan, most Baptist, individual approach to church has taken over our culture to a large degree.

If I say "This bigoted thing is simply unloving, and to say one is a believer and to believe it is not only hypocritical, but it makes Christ a liar" can be very difficult if the local congregations all say "if you do not believe this thing is true, you are not a Christian".

We talk about forsaking the gathering of believers, but we continue to act as if what they believe is somehow central.

We claim the centrality of Christ, but this in no way demands specific belief or behaviour in a general sense. So people can honestly say that saying homosexuality is an abomination and that people who "choose" it are going to hell, or that atheists who are fighting for equal rights and separation of church and state are commiting wrongs against society...that these things are not hateful...

...when anybody who doesn't believe those things sees them as hateful and bigoted. No matter what the book says.

It's not entitlement to believe that Christ's love and Grace come first, and overcome all things. But love is a bad word in our churches. We would prefer holiness and judgement, as the American church. And I think that it's simply impossible for our youth to read the Sermon on the Mount, or see Jesus at the well, or with the adultress, and then look at that behaviour, and say "this is the community that I belong with, that shares my love for Christ".

So instead, they say "you can have your holiness, and your standards, and your church. And they will die with you."

[Mike Schutz]

Our goal is to make heaven. Jesus wants us to go to heaven. Satan’s goal is for us to miss heaven. Satan doesn’t care who or what tactic he uses. In my years one of the number one tactic’s Satan uses is simply to use either the a carnal Christens or a phony Christians as an excuse to not obey God. Its one of Satan’s oldest lies to use another person as an excuse to not obey God myself. I’ve personally experienced huge pain at the feet of either carnal or phony Christians in the Church but in the end I had to accept God allowed it to test me and used it to reveal to me my own great lack yet. It’s how we learn holiness. How could I claim to be a follower of Christ and not love them and care about there souls and try to help them find the error of there way instead of being selfish and abandon them. I’ve witnessed the same with countless others and it will never stop as long as Satan is successful in getting us to sympathize with ourselves oh poor me it’s the Churches fault. The Church is so bad it shouldn’t happen/ it should not happen in the Church. Why does anybody think this? We should teach the truth. It’s totally scriptural the Church will have many false teachers and followers and we have to discern the true from the false. Jesus said “Many” who claim to serve him and to there surprise will be cast into hell. Jesus said the tares will grow with the wheat. The Church with all of its problems is still the best thing in this world. The Church is how I found salvation in Christ, the Church taught me the way of Christ and it’s currently helping me find the strength to finish the journey. I owe my life to the Church of Jesus. I’ve never seen one of these Lone rangers lead anybody to Christ. If they do they will have to become the Church to help the new baby grow. When they take responsible for others they will see how truly difficult it is to live the Christian life themselves in community with others. Who of us would know anything about Christ if it were not the work of the Church someplace in our history.

John,
I think your first sentence is probably where we have an issue. While I think I understand what you are saying:
1. My goal is not "to make heaven." My goal is to be like Jesus, and for the young people I am talking about, that is not simply a matter of semantics. Which takes me to -
2. One of their chief frustrations with the church, and keep in mind that these are highly intelligent young people, is that they see the church as, in the words of a former pastor of mine, " so heavenly minded that it is of no worldly good." These young people know their history, know how the church has used future glory as a cop out for not addressing present day injustice, and find the desire for "pie in the sky, by and by" to be horribly offensive when the world around them is being at best neglected and at worst condemned to hell by Christians who are altogether comfortable with the eternal fate of their neighbors.
Again, in the words of one of the young people I know, "Hell begins right here and now, and if we are not willing to help our neighbors deal with the hell they face every day, why should they trust us with what comes next?"

[Bob Hunter]

I think I know what the problem is with young people leaving the Church. IT ISN'T MANLY ENOUGH!

Problem solved, save your breath all!

[Hans Deventer]

I think I know what the problem is with young people leaving the Church. IT ISN'T MANLY ENOUGH!

Problem solved, save your breath all!

Yeah, that's why the girls are leaving, of course.

[Gene Tatsch]

... But love is a bad word in our churches. We would prefer holiness and judgement, ...

and this, when our claimed Master says "by this shall all men know you are my disciples, if you LOVE one another" (John 13:35)

[Ian Gentles]

I think I know what the problem is with young people leaving the Church. IT ISN'T MANLY ENOUGH!

Problem solved, save your breath all!

Actualy, I agree with you.

[Kyle Borger]

I agree with Mike here. I am getting sick and tired of hearing about heaven. I am tired of watching the "saints" in our churches sit in their pews and complain about everything we are doing to their church all the while they dream of the old days and pray that they will die quickly so they can go to heaven.

What about the rest of us? What about your duty to help this generation find Jesus? Why must you be so focused on yourselves you can't see all of the opportunities Jesus is giving you right now to live! I am tired of watching those I should respect and look up to sit in their homes and complain that no one visits them. How about you invite someone over? How about you take the first step? You don't think the youth know anything about how to treat your generation? Then teach them.

How many times have I heard people tell me that they can't help in the nursery or children's department because they are retired and they did their time. So it is left to the parents that are struggling to figure it out. There is no one in there who can give them hints or support. The children's department has no choice but to be run by those who don't have the experience.

This is what they youth see. They see an older generation that simply is so wrapped up in themselves that they can't make an effort to care about the youth.

To those of you here that are older and involved; thank you. I know that there are a lot of our older generation that is involved, but there are many more of you that are simply focused on their eternal retirement. How is it that such a selfish generation was created?

Yes. I said it. With all the generosity that I receive on a daily basis from previous generations including my freedom to worship God, there is also an overwhelming focus on themselves.

You don't get to retire from ministry! Stop focusing on heaven! Jesus wants us to have eternal life today and it starts by giving him complete control of our lives. Now go and lay your life down and do everything possible to be involved in the lives of those who are younger than you and then you might see a difference.

Don't like the music? Get over yourself. It isn't about what you like or really what any of us like. Don't like the fact that the young people don't wear nice clothing to church? Get over yourself. Focus on their heart first and then maybe they will give you permission to tell them why it is important to you. Think everyone is a false teacher because they are pointing to Jesus in a way that is different then what you are used to? Think everyone is going to Hell because they use different methods to glorify God? Really? Really? Are they pointing to the one true God? Are they declaring and glorifying the Triune God? Are they magnifying Christ? Are they pointing to Jesus as our Lord and Savior?

Yes. The youth want an authentic relationship and they are tired of the pharisee like behavior coming from our churches. Wear the right clothes. Sing my songs, not yours. Sit up straight! Look at that gross hair? Look at her clothes, how could that slut even think of coming in here dressed like that? You don't think they see your condemnation? You don't have to say it. It is in your eyes just as much as it has been in my eyes as well.

We as a church must first be concerned about the condition of their heart. Too much of our concern has been if a person appears to be a good Nazarene and much less on if they really are. Kids today are too smart for that and they can spot a phony a mile away.

May God help us all withhold our judgment long enough to actually show the love of Christ and build relationships with those who have come after us.

[Marsha Lynn]

I agree with Mike here. I am getting sick and tired of hearing about heaven. I am tired of watching the "saints" in our churches sit in their pews and complain about everything we are doing to their church all the while they dream of the old days and pray that they will die quickly so they can go to heaven.

You may be seeing what you have described where you are. I'm not seeing it. I'm seeing the "saints" working themselves nigh to death trying to keep things going in a place where there are too few committed young adults -- not none, but too few. I'm seeing a willingness to accept change in the name of survival and to appeal to the next generation. And the young adults are still leaving -- the church, but not necessarily the faith. I think the reasons for their rejection of the church go deeper than the older adults being too "heavenly minded."

I saw a bumper sticker this week. It said, "You cannot be both Christian and pro-choice." Even though I am a devoted disciple of Jesus Christ and view abortion as a terrible thing, I found the message on that bumper sticker offensive. Yet, it's a message that one can readily hear in the church: "You can't be a Christian if you don't have a worldview that matches mine." How many times can we expect our postmodern Christian young people to listen to that message before they find somewhere else to be while it is being delivered?

I did a blog post a long time ago about how I go to church without getting angry. Sometimes doing so is easier than at other times. What helps me the most is when I have the feeling that I am in a position to change the things that offend me. I think many young people leave because they not only are consistently offended, but they have little or no hope of making a difference. That may go along with some of what you said about the older people being self-centered, but part of it has more to do with the impression that the older people can't possibly understand how a person can be, for one example out of many, both Christian and pro-choice, and are unwilling to listen to the thought processes of those who are. Even if Grandma Suzy is concerned enough about the spiritual well-being of her grandchildren that she's willing to give up the hymnal and work in children's church every week, is she going to take the bumper sticker they find so offensive off her car (or that same message off her lips)?

Marsha

[Greg Farra]

I agree with Mike here. I am getting sick and tired of hearing about heaven. I am tired of watching the "saints" in our churches sit in their pews and complain about everything we are doing to their church all the while they dream of the old days and pray that they will die quickly so they can go to heaven.

What about the rest of us? What about your duty to help this generation find Jesus? Why must you be so focused on yourselves you can't see all of the opportunities Jesus is giving you right now to live! I am tired of watching those I should respect and look up to sit in their homes and complain that no one visits them. How about you invite someone over? How about you take the first step? You don't think the youth know anything about how to treat your generation? Then teach them.

How many times have I heard people tell me that they can't help in the nursery or children's department because they are retired and they did their time. So it is left to the parents that are struggling to figure it out. There is no one in there who can give them hints or support. The children's department has no choice but to be run by those who don't have the experience.

This is what they youth see. They see an older generation that simply is so wrapped up in themselves that they can't make an effort to care about the youth.

To those of you here that are older and involved; thank you. I know that there are a lot of our older generation that is involved, but there are many more of you that are simply focused on their eternal retirement. How is it that such a selfish generation was created?

Yes. I said it. With all the generosity that I receive on a daily basis from previous generations including my freedom to worship God, there is also an overwhelming focus on themselves.

You don't get to retire from ministry! Stop focusing on heaven! Jesus wants us to have eternal life today and it starts by giving him complete control of our lives. Now go and lay your life down and do everything possible to be involved in the lives of those who are younger than you and then you might see a difference.

Don't like the music? Get over yourself. It isn't about what you like or really what any of us like. Don't like the fact that the young people don't wear nice clothing to church? Get over yourself. Focus on their heart first and then maybe they will give you permission to tell them why it is important to you. Think everyone is a false teacher because they are pointing to Jesus in a way that is different then what you are used to? Think everyone is going to Hell because they use different methods to glorify God? Really? Really? Are they pointing to the one true God? Are they declaring and glorifying the Triune God? Are they magnifying Christ? Are they pointing to Jesus as our Lord and Savior?

Yes. The youth want an authentic relationship and they are tired of the pharisee like behavior coming from our churches. Wear the right clothes. Sing my songs, not yours. Sit up straight! Look at that gross hair? Look at her clothes, how could that slut even think of coming in here dressed like that? You don't think they see your condemnation? You don't have to say it. It is in your eyes just as much as it has been in my eyes as well.

We as a church must first be concerned about the condition of their heart. Too much of our concern has been if a person appears to be a good Nazarene and much less on if they really are. Kids today are too smart for that and they can spot a phony a mile away.

May God help us all withhold our judgment long enough to actually show the love of Christ and build relationships with those who have come after us.

Kyle, I see where you're coming from, and I agree that we need to have authentic fellowship. But I also have seen the other side, where our worship services have become entertainment venues on Sunday mornings. From my observation, the church has thought that it needs to cater to the consumerist mentality of culture. If it's old, throw it out without thinking of the ramifications. Worship has become about hip, loud rock music, and flashy lights. Why should young people come to Sunday worship when it offers nothing different than what they can get in the media?

I know there are judgmental people, but most of the older folk I know don't look down on those who don't 'dress right'. Maybe your experience is different than mine. We had a few of those at our church, but they're gone. The younger people (I'm talking church members, not visitors) have to take some responsibility as well. We live in a society that values youth and looks down upon older adults. We joke about them wearing diapers, ready to die, worthless, and being old fuddy duddies. The people that have supported the church financially, spiritually and brought their kids to church every week whether they felt like it or not. They kept coming after the kids were grown and supported the church despite having to deal with change in worship style, ministry and each pastor's new vision for the church. I have a small group at church made up of mainly older adults, and on New Year's Day everyone of them was in worship that morning, making up one fifth of the people there. We serve dinners to the people at Lower Lights COTN in Columbus, which is located in what was once called the largest white ghetto in America. And we are moving our small group twice a month to a retirement village as part of our outreach to a portion of society that is often neglected.

I know that you weren't saying all older people are old cranks, but there are a lot of them who are still living the life of holy love. There are young people who are as well, but there are also a lot of narcissistic young adults.

[Jon Bemis]

I agree with Mike here. I am getting sick and tired of hearing about heaven. I am tired of watching the "saints" in our churches sit in their pews and complain about everything we are doing to their church all the while they dream of the old days and pray that they will die quickly so they can go to heaven.

What about the rest of us? What about your duty to help this generation find Jesus? Why must you be so focused on yourselves you can't see all of the opportunities Jesus is giving you right now to live! I am tired of watching those I should respect and look up to sit in their homes and complain that no one visits them. How about you invite someone over? How about you take the first step? You don't think the youth know anything about how to treat your generation? Then teach them.

I must say that after reading this I'm am suddenly more appreciative of our older saints. Except for the ones that are now house-bound, they are proportionally more involved and more faithful in almost every aspect of our church's ministry than any other age group. I would agree that occasionally someone is high maintenance and can be a terrible witness, but that's true of all ages.

[Greg Farra]

Well, to be fair, Jon, I was in a church like Kyle described. It does suck the life out of young people. And everyone else as well.

[Dale Cozby]

Kyle,

I did a lesson about 9 months ago on a Wednesday night that I think had a profound impact on my senior adults.
We talked about death. We talked about life...and that more abundantly. I started the lesson by discussing how long everyone had left according to actuarial tables.

here is the official Social security one :http://www.ssa.gov/oact/STATS/table4c6.html

Needless to say, when we I arrived I had it ready and had already plotted, my own and everyone else that was a regular, even the young adult people.
The sense was stunning; Is that all I have left? If so, what are you still here for? Are you waiting around to perish from under the sun having done all the good you want? Are you taking what you have left of life and burying it in the ground till doomsday?
Have you asked God why He hasn't taken you home but has chosen to leeave you here for a few more years in that old carcass? Is there anyone you love, you know in your heart is not ready to face death as you are ready to face it? I cited my own families lifespans and how they lived up the day they died.

When my grandmother got where she could see any longer , she had most of the new testament, ALL of the Psalms, Many parts of the Proverbs and other OT scriptures memorized. She was a walking Bible with amazing clarity to recite even in her 90's.! It was an amazing thing when my grandfather died he had kept track of how many times he had read the Bible cover to cover and the last entry was over 500 times! And it was added several years before his death. When she could no longer attend church she would consult with the pastor to find out the prayer needs and would add them to her prayer filled life. No one ever visited her that they did not receive more encouragement and more prayer than tehy came to give her. On her death bed, she knew she was dying, and yet instead of worrying, she wanted to pray one more time for each visitor before she could no longer do so. Only the last three days of her life could she could no longer pray as the meds were too strong for her to be awake. She died at the ripe old age of 98.

So I challenged them, wait are you waiting for? Death? Are you going to waste the last years of your life doing nothing for the Kingdom? According to the tables I have 32.69 years left. My group varied from 5 yrs left to 56 years left that night.

I made suggstions on how they could extend thier ministry years without breaking a sweat.
1.Get the young peoples phone numbers and learn to text them when they miss events or services.
2. Become a Facebooker and befriend the young people in the church...take the frst step to new friendships.
3. Stop talking about how your old friends are dead or dying and you have no fellowship opportunities. Make some new ones!
4. Invite a young person, or couple to Sunday dinner , do it on Thursday night or wednesday night so they have time to become expectant. Remind them Saturday by text, if they cancel rescedule for the next available.
5. Hit like or comment on FB when the young people post pictures, etc.
6. Pray for them daily. Ask them what they need prayer for or about. Pray with them. Pray with them. pray with them. Teach them how to pray for themselves and others.
7. Ask them to pray for you too.
8. Finally write everyone you love a letter about your faith, your testimony and about what you desire for them in life and the next and what you are praying for in thier life AND send it. Then write one more, a final word from the grave. Put it in an envelope, sit it with your will and let it ride until such a time as your dead and it becomes your love letter from the grave for them. Delivered by your executor. Want to have an impact even after your gone? Now is the time.
9 One lady sends Standards to missing young people each Sunday afternoon. Letting them know she missed them.

I have been amazed at the new level of interaction between the 20's and the 70-80's in my church. And it all started with one discussion of death and purpose in life.
I keep reminding them all to take action, don't grow weary in doing good, use ALL thier life to God's glory not just the past deeds.

[Billy Cox]

I know that you weren't saying all older people are old cranks, but there are a lot of them who are still living the life of holy love. There are young people who are as well, but there are also a lot of narcissistic young adults.

A bird in hand is worth two in the bush?