Jesus made perfect through suffering

[Jon Bemis]

Hebrews 2:10 says that Jesus was made perfect through His suffering:

In bringing many sons and daughters to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through what he suffered.

Here's one author's opinion on this verse's meaning:

Jesus, as the author of our salvation, was made perfect – or complete through the suffering He experienced. We often say that Jesus paid the price for our sin. The price, the penalty for that sin could not be paid in full without experiencing the suffering that is both the punishment and the consequence of that sin. God could not have laid all the sin of the world upon His Son without Jesus experiencing the suffering that the sin caused. Christ was not “made perfect” through suffering, but His sacrifice was made complete through suffering; His authorship of our salvation was completed.

So what do you think the writer of Hebrews intended when he wrote "it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through what he suffered. "?

[James Diggs]

Love perfected is one that completely loves the other as itself and you can't embrace a suffering other without embracing the reality of that suffering too. Love perfected in mankind came from God himself finding solidarity with man through the willing embrace of the collision course with suffering, injustice, hatred, and sin set in motion in the very incarnation and culminated in the cross. in Christ, God truly loved us as himself.

[John Reilly]

Jesus was and is perfect. Jesus is and was perfect in holiness and obedience. So in suffering, Jesus is the perfection of being God in flesh perfectly experiencing Divine eternal nature and human finite nature. Jesus in suffering makes perfect in completion the Divine-Human incarnation (hypostatic union) that is God with us, Emmanuel.

[Ryan Scott]

I would also say that it's not really love if it doesn't cost you something. It is our suffering that proves our love. It was Christ's suffering that proved Christ's love.

[Randy Wise]

Hebrews 2:10 says that Jesus was made perfect through His suffering:

In bringing many sons and daughters to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through what he suffered.

Here's one author's opinion on this verse's meaning:

Jesus, as the author of our salvation, was made perfect – or complete through the suffering He experienced. We often say that Jesus paid the price for our sin. The price, the penalty for that sin could not be paid in full without experiencing the suffering that is both the punishment and the consequence of that sin. God could not have laid all the sin of the world upon His Son without Jesus experiencing the suffering that the sin caused. Christ was not “made perfect” through suffering, but His sacrifice was made complete through suffering; His authorship of our salvation was completed.

So what do you think the writer of Hebrews intended when he wrote "it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through what he suffered. "?

I tend to see this which is vs 18

Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

Jesus suffered human life as we do firsthand (in a human body) so He knows/felt/experienced what man goes through in everything including hard work to put food on the table. People shy away from saying Christ wasn't made perfect because they believe Jesus always was and always was God. That to me is the Father. The one who dwells in Jesus the Son. But I leave it at that. I do state though Jesus was without sin which shows the power of sin had no hold on Him but I also believe part of that is that Jesus loved the Father and the one in Jesus was greater then the one tempting Him. Jesus spoke of things He saw at the beginning of creation so can such memories come from just a human experience. That also helped Jesus overcome the world which Jesus did as a servant. Jesus like the Father is ancient of days.

Randy

[George Wallace]

Hebrews 2:10 says that Jesus was made perfect through His suffering:

In bringing many sons and daughters to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through what he suffered.

Here's one author's opinion on this verse's meaning:

Jesus, as the author of our salvation, was made perfect – or complete through the suffering He experienced. We often say that Jesus paid the price for our sin. The price, the penalty for that sin could not be paid in full without experiencing the suffering that is both the punishment and the consequence of that sin. God could not have laid all the sin of the world upon His Son without Jesus experiencing the suffering that the sin caused. Christ was not “made perfect” through suffering, but His sacrifice was made complete through suffering; His authorship of our salvation was completed.

So what do you think the writer of Hebrews intended when he wrote "it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through what he suffered. "?

Christ as man, the second Adam, needed to accomplish His life and ministry under two broad categories.

1. He needed to do what Adam did not; to succeed in obedience where Adam failed He kept the Law- He was perfectly sinless.

2. With this Active obedience complete; He was also required to bear the Sin, to endure the requirement of the Law. He drank the Cup!

This is closely tied to Matthew 28:18

18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “ All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

Wasn't He always God? Didn't he say," Before Abraham was I AM";? Doesn't the verse in in question here state "for whom and through whom everything exists"?

So what's with all this 'Authority has been given to me business?' He was God; didn't He already have Authority? Hadn't the wind and seas already obeyed Him?

What changed?

--Jesus [by both His Active, and in this context His Passive obedience] earned as a man what he already owned as God.

His suffering was a necessary to part of His actually procuring my Salvation!

Our God is truly an Awesome God!

But the LORD was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand

[Randy Wise]

Christ as man, the second Adam, needed to accomplish His life and ministry under two broad categories.

1. He needed to do what Adam did not; to succeed in obedience where Adam failed He kept the Law- He was perfectly sinless.

2. With this Active obedience complete; He was also required to bear the Sin, to endure the requirement of the Law. He drank the Cup!

This is closely tied to Matthew 28:18



Wasn't He always God? Didn't he say," Before Abraham was I AM";? Doesn't the verse in in question here state "for whom and through whom everything exists"?

So what's with all this 'Authority has been given to me business?' He was God; didn't He already have Authority? Hadn't the wind and seas already obeyed Him?

What changed?

--Jesus [by both His Active, and in this context His Passive obedience] earned as a man what he already owned as God.

His suffering was a necessary to part of His actually procuring my Salvation!

Our God is truly an Awesome God!

The scripture is consistent to me that God the Father created through the Son. Wasn't He always God? It doesn't state at what point Gods fullness was pleased to dwell in Him but my assumption is that it was at the point God brought forth HIS firstborn (before creation). So Jesus has always existed (and He never dies) as one in whom Gods fullness dwells. I don't need to consider the quality of the Him apart from that fullness as that to me has never existed. Jesus and the Father are one in that respect. The Father in Him and He in the Father. Jesus is all that the Father is but He is the Son and the Father is His God. From what I read Jesus was not ashamed to teach or call God His Father and His God as that to me is "I tell you the truth". The Father is the one who glorified the Son to mankind and even to angels and the Son brings glory the Father.

[George Wallace]

The scripture is consistent to me that God the Father created through the Son. Wasn't He always God? It doesn't state at what point Gods fullness was pleased to dwell in Him but my assumption is that it was at the point God brought forth HIS firstborn (before creation). So Jesus has always existed (and He never dies) as one in whom Gods fullness dwells. I don't need to consider the quality of the Him apart from that fullness as that to me has never existed. Jesus and the Father are one in that respect. The Father in Him and He in the Father. Jesus is all that the Father is but He is the Son and the Father is His God. From what I read Jesus was not ashamed to teach or call God His Father and His God as that to me is "I tell you the truth". The Father is the one who glorified the Son to mankind and even to angels and the Son brings glory the Father.

Think Trinity Randy,

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Randy, we went down this road, had this discussion, about 3-4 years ago. And I know you are aware of your somewhat "unique" view of The Second Person of the Trinity. IMO, you view is closer to Arianism than orthodox Christianity. It isn't truly Arian, so I say live and let live brother, but I think it is important to remember that your "assumptions" here don't always seem to line up with the Ecumenical Creeds and that is worrisome.

Will you affirm the following?

Definition of Chalcedon (451 AD)

Following, then, the holy fathers, we unite in teaching all men to confess the one and only Son, our Lord Jesus Christ. This selfsame one is perfect both in deity and in humanness; this selfsame one is also actually God and actually man, with a rational soul {meaning human soul} and a body. He is of the same reality as God as far as his deity is concerned and of the same reality as we ourselves as far as his humanness is concerned; thus like us in all respects, sin only excepted. Before time began he was begotten of the Father, in respect of his deity, and now in these "last days," for us and behalf of our salvation, this selfsame one was born of Mary the virgin, who is God-bearer in respect of his humanness.

We also teach that we apprehend this one and only Christ-Son, Lord, only-begotten -- in two natures; and we do this without confusing the two natures, without transmuting one nature into the other, without dividing them into two separate categories, without con- trasting them according to area or function. The distinctiveness of each nature is not nullified by the union. Instead, the "properties" of each nature are conserved and both natures concur in one "person" and in one reality {hypostasis}. They are not divided or cut into two persons, but are together the one and only and only-begotten Word {Logos} of God, the Lord Jesus Christ. Thus have the prophets of old testified; thus the Lord Jesus Christ himself taught us; thus the Symbol of Fathers {the Nicene Creed} has handed down to us.

[George Wallace]

I don't need to consider the quality of the Him apart from that fullness as that to me has never existed. Jesus and the Father are one in that respect.

Well, He is one person, two natures, the Theanthropos, God-man. While we have to tread lightly when discussing this, I am not quite sure what you mean by; "I don't need to consider the quality of the Him apart from that fullness." Didn't Christ have to be both man and God?

[Randy Wise]

Well, He is one person, two natures, the Theanthropos, God-man. While we have to tread lightly when discussing this, I am not quite sure what you mean by; "I don't need to consider the quality of the Him apart from that fullness." Didn't Christ have to be both man and God?

I think the Jesus that was dwelled in a fully human body. Jesus taught the Father was in Him. Jesus the Son however has His own Spirit. That Spirit was what I mean in regard to the qaulity of the Him. As the fullness was pleased to dwell in HIM. I don't believe Jesus ever existed apart from that fullness. It doesn't state at what point the fullness was given but the way I read Paul it was at His birth from the Father as Firstborn of all creation. Jesus taught the Father is His God and Father.

"Father into your hands I commit MY SPIRIT".

Randy

[Benjamin Burch]

I think the Jesus that was dwelled in a fully human body. Jesus taught the Father was in Him. Jesus the Son however has His own Spirit. That Spirit was what I mean in regard to the qaulity of the Him. As the fullness was pleased to dwell in HIM. I don't believe Jesus ever existed apart from that fullness. It doesn't state at what point the fullness was given but the way I read Paul it was at His birth from the Father as Firstborn of all creation. Jesus taught the Father is His God and Father.

"Father into your hands I commit MY SPIRIT".

Randy

I just don't know that discussing this any further is going to be helpful.

[Hans Deventer]

I just don't know that discussing this any further is going to be helpful.

No, it is not. Either one is willing to abide by the ecumenical creeds of the Church, or not. The issue is willingness, nothing else.

[Benjamin Burch]

No, it is not. Either one is willing to abide by the ecumenical creeds of the Church, or not. The issue is willingness, nothing else.

That's part of it. The other is that there are plenty of things that we could beat a dead horse over and, despite the fact that we've discussed it 4x, no one is suddenly going to have an "aha" moment where they change their minds.....

This seems to be the most futile of all. Certainly no one is going to hear an explanation and say "Hey! That makes perfect sense. I guess they really were wrong at Constantinople!"

[Randy Wise]

Hebrews 2:10 says that Jesus was made perfect through His suffering:

In bringing many sons and daughters to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through what he suffered.

Here's one author's opinion on this verse's meaning:

Jesus, as the author of our salvation, was made perfect – or complete through the suffering He experienced. We often say that Jesus paid the price for our sin. The price, the penalty for that sin could not be paid in full without experiencing the suffering that is both the punishment and the consequence of that sin. God could not have laid all the sin of the world upon His Son without Jesus experiencing the suffering that the sin caused. Christ was not “made perfect” through suffering, but His sacrifice was made complete through suffering; His authorship of our salvation was completed.

So what do you think the writer of Hebrews intended when he wrote "it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through what he suffered. "?

Below is also from Hebrews

During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. 8 Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him 10 and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.

[Randy Wise]

That's part of it. The other is that there are plenty of things that we could beat a dead horse over and, despite the fact that we've discussed it 4x, no one is suddenly going to have an "aha" moment where they change their minds.....

This seems to be the most futile of all. Certainly no one is going to hear an explanation and say "Hey! That makes perfect sense. I guess they really were wrong at Constantinople!"

I am one but to me its a matter of following truth. If I told you I believed Jesus always was and always was God then I would be dishonest with you. As I stated as long as Jesus has existed (for He is Gods firstborn) I believe Gods fullness has been in Him (all that the Father is. I would also note I am responding to threads not creating them. I neither seek to start a movement nor want people to follow me. I point people to Jesus for life and state "follow Him" I am asking people to believe in Him (Jesus)

Randy