Is It Part of a Pastor's Job to ___________?

[Pete Vecchi]

Before I start, please let me make clear that this is NOT at all meant to be negative or complaining in any way. Rather, it is something that I hope will be an honest discussion about what types of things pastors should and shouldn't be expected to have in a formal "job description" (generally speaking). I say "generally speaking" because each pastorate is unique, and there will likely be things that one pastor will do in a job that another pastor (or even the same pastor if pastoring a different congregation) might not do (and vice-versa).

The Manual clearly sets out expectations and duties (broken down into "core" duties and "administrative" duties) of a pastor, and many things can fall under the umbrella of one or both of those. I'm hoping that we will be able to discuss specifics. And one word of definition, is that this is talking about the Lead Pastor (or Head Pastor, or Senior Pastor--or ONLY pastor if there is just one pastor in the congregation).

Let's start with a common one.

Is it part of a pastor's job to have a role in the regular time of weekly worship (usually Sunday mornings) with the congregation?

I've heard two different sides of the issue. I've heard of people telling pastors that they get paid to preach. Jokes are told that pastors only work one day a week, with the obvious understanding being that pastors only work on Sundays.

On the other hand, I've heard people say that pastors shouldn't consider the time they spend in worship services (including leading, preaching, etc...) as "work" time because "everybody is supposed to be in church" or "other people volunteer to do things (music, tend the nursery, count offerings, etc...) during the worship service so the pastor is just doing his/her own part to contribute to the worship service and shouldn't count it as time working."

What do people think about this particular issue?

Are there other specifics that people would like to discuss as generally being or not being part of a pastor's duties?

[Dave McClung]

Before I start, please let me make clear that this is NOT at all meant to be negative or complaining in any way. Rather, it is something that I hope will be an honest discussion about what types of things pastors should and shouldn't be expected to have in a formal "job description" (generally speaking). I say "generally speaking" because each pastorate is unique, and there will likely be things that one pastor will do in a job that another pastor (or even the same pastor if pastoring a different congregation) might not do (and vice-versa).

The Manual clearly sets out expectations and duties (broken down into "core" duties and "administrative" duties) of a pastor, and many things can fall under the umbrella of one or both of those. I'm hoping that we will be able to discuss specifics. And one word of definition, is that this is talking about the Lead Pastor (or Head Pastor, or Senior Pastor--or ONLY pastor if there is just one pastor in the congregation).

Let's start with a common one.

Is it part of a pastor's job to have a role in the regular time of weekly worship (usually Sunday mornings) with the congregation?

I've heard two different sides of the issue. I've heard of people telling pastors that they get paid to preach. Jokes are told that pastors only work one day a week, with the obvious understanding being that pastors only work on Sundays.

On the other hand, I've heard people say that pastors shouldn't consider the time they spend in worship services (including leading, preaching, etc...) as "work" time because "everybody is supposed to be in church" or "other people volunteer to do things (music, tend the nursery, count offerings, etc...) during the worship service so the pastor is just doing his/her own part to contribute to the worship service and shouldn't count it as time working."

What do people think about this particular issue?

Are there other specifics that people would like to discuss as generally being or not being part of a pastor's duties?

Pete

I have to confess that my perspective is influenced by my view of a "call." I have viewed the call that pastors have from God is the important thing, so the question should be, "What has God called you to do?"

I have never had an employment agreement that said "I want you to work X number of hours each week." My employment agreements have always said something like "You will provide the executive leadership to implement the plans and achieve the goals established by the board of directors." Whether or not I have done my job doesn't depend on how much time I spend in the office, which meetings I go to, or how many sales calls I make. Whether or not I have done my job depends on whether or not the company earns profit.

In my opinon, a pastor should approach his or her job the same way. How many hours a pastor works is irrelevant. The important questions are, are people being won to God and the church? Are the new converts being effectively discipled? Are the members of the church personally involved in the ministries of the church? Is the pastor personally growing in his or her relationship with God? If a pastor can answer "yes" to all those questions, then it doesn't matter how many hours it takes. If any of those questions can't be answered with a "yes" then the pastor needs to be giving more effort.

[John Kennedy]

Before I start, please let me make clear that this is NOT at all meant to be negative or complaining in any way. Rather, it is something that I hope will be an honest discussion about what types of things pastors should and shouldn't be expected to have in a formal "job description" (generally speaking). I say "generally speaking" because each pastorate is unique, and there will likely be things that one pastor will do in a job that another pastor (or even the same pastor if pastoring a different congregation) might not do (and vice-versa).

The Manual clearly sets out expectations and duties (broken down into "core" duties and "administrative" duties) of a pastor, and many things can fall under the umbrella of one or both of those. I'm hoping that we will be able to discuss specifics. And one word of definition, is that this is talking about the Lead Pastor (or Head Pastor, or Senior Pastor--or ONLY pastor if there is just one pastor in the congregation).

Let's start with a common one.

Is it part of a pastor's job to have a role in the regular time of weekly worship (usually Sunday mornings) with the congregation?

I've heard two different sides of the issue. I've heard of people telling pastors that they get paid to preach. Jokes are told that pastors only work one day a week, with the obvious understanding being that pastors only work on Sundays.

On the other hand, I've heard people say that pastors shouldn't consider the time they spend in worship services (including leading, preaching, etc...) as "work" time because "everybody is supposed to be in church" or "other people volunteer to do things (music, tend the nursery, count offerings, etc...) during the worship service so the pastor is just doing his/her own part to contribute to the worship service and shouldn't count it as time working."

What do people think about this particular issue?

Are there other specifics that people would like to discuss as generally being or not being part of a pastor's duties?

I think Dave gave a very good and rational answer. Unfortunately individuals or congregations that lower themselves to the kind of nit-picking described here wouldn't know rational if they saw it coming toward them. No explanation is likely to be accepted by them. A pastor confronted with such a situation would do well to protect him/herself as much as possible.

[John Reilly]

My life verse has been 2 Peter 3:18, "grow in grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savoir Jesus Christ." So in keeping with this personal call I read the Bible daily, pray daily, read devotional material daily, and read scholars daily. As my personal passion and mission motivated me in further study, I spent many weeks continuing education and on May 13, graduated from NTS with a Doctor of Ministry degree. My call as Pastor is to shepherd God's people by preaching his word and showing his love. This morning I led a "Celebration of Life" service for a young mother, 50 years old, stricken down too early in her life. I spent time with family sharing God's comfort and love and the Holy Spirit came in the service to witness of God's love and grace for family, husband, 5 children including the youngest daughter only 15 years old, 8 grandchildren, and God's Presence was there for us as time stopped and we spent time talking about eternal life. As difficult as those moments can be, holding a weeping daughter, the privilege is more meaningful than most anything else we can to for each other in this life, whether a Pastor or a people, perhaps because we all face our own mortality in the face of the death of our friends and family. "Thanks be to God who gives us the victory!"

[Dave McClung]

I think Dave gave a very good and rational answer. Unfortunately individuals or congregations that lower themselves to the kind of nit-picking described here wouldn't know rational if they saw it coming toward them. No explanation is likely to be accepted by them. A pastor confronted with such a situation would do well to protect him/herself as much as possible.

I have served on church boards where some of the board members attempted to project the requirements of their own work on the pastor. I remember one individual who suggested that he church put a time clock in the church office to keep track of when the pastor was there. His argument was, "I have to do it, why shouldn't the pastor?" Such thinking totally misunderstands the role and function of a pastor.

[John Kennedy]

I have served on church boards where some of the board members attempted to project the requirements of their own work on the pastor. I remember one individual who suggested that he church put a time clock in the church office to keep track of when the pastor was there. His argument was, "I have to do it, why shouldn't the pastor?" Such thinking totally misunderstands the role and function of a pastor.

Exactly my point. Given that, is there anything a pastor can do for protection? I know of non-Naz churches where there is a contractual agreement between pastor and church.

[Pete Vecchi]

Replying to basically all of the posts thus far, first I say, "Thank you." This is the type of discussion I was hoping for.

Dave's point about "the call" is absolutely correct, and I don't know how to practically explain or describe that to someone who hasn't experienced it. His mentioning of the goals and objectives is a point well taken--one that I've seen him make before. I believe he called that and the "time clock" view the difference between "white collar" and "blue collar" thinking.

Now, this is NOT me that I'm talking about, but rather a person who is in youth ministry. He has a "part time" position at a (non-Nazarene) congregation where he actually is expected to keep track of his hours, and then he's paid on an hourly basis. He's not supposed to go over a certain number of hours per week, unless he has the approval of his superior(s). I've told him that I'd never heard of such a thing in ministry, yet he has said that he previously worked under similar circumstances at another (non-Nazarene) church.

My gut reaction is that I basically want to agree with Dave, but my practical reaction is that in my personal experience in being a member of 5 different congregations (of 3 different denominations) over the past 28 years (the past 22 years in 3 different Nazarene congregations), most congregations tend to take the "blue collar" approach. That's probably because most of the congregations with which I've been involved have been more "blue collar" in make-up.

So, aside from "the call" and the "white collar" viewpoint, what about the basic premise of that question with which I started: is participating in/leading the main worship service to be considered part of a pastor's job, or is it volunteer because the pastor is only participating in something that everyone else from the church is supposed to participate in?

[Dave McClung]

...
So, aside from "the call" and the "white collar" viewpoint, what about the basic premise of that question with which I started: is participating in/leading the main worship service to be considered part of a pastor's job, or is it volunteer because the pastor is only participating in something that everyone else from the church is supposed to participate in?

Most pastors I know spend 70 hours or more a week in their ministry. That would include preparing for and attending worship services.

[Pete Vecchi]

Most pastors I know spend 70 hours or more a week in their ministry. That would include preparing for and attending worship services.

So what about "bi-vocational" pastors? by definition, they are "part-time." If the pastor is "part-time" then how does one quantify that?

[Doug Ward]

As a matter of principle, I do not count hours that I perform duties, nor do I count calls, etc. If I interviewed at a church, and a time card, or call counting was required, I would decline right away. I will not treat people, or time with people as a commodity. I will not use people as a means to quantify job performance. No, no, no. As most are aware, if I count hours, I can make the stats look as good as I want. Phone calls, meeting for coffee, golfing with a board member could all "count" as hours. I have a great role, in that I get to invest in people. I get to talk with people. I have the privilege of going to concerts and ball games, and they even let me preach. I could fill my hours with many activities - look at how hard I work - look at all these hours. Yet if I am not meeting the needs of the people, they will know, regardless of the time card stats.

My duties as pastor change from year to year, and church to church. What is a role in one place, may not be a role in another. I paint, unstop a drain, change light bulbs, preach, teach, counsel, pick up chairs, meet for lunch, etc. All of life is part of my role, whatever that means in my setting now. In the last 8 years, I have pastored 3 different churches, and not once have I changed assignments.

[Gary Creely]

I have served on church boards where some of the board members attempted to project the requirements of their own work on the pastor.

This is a very common way some church boards look at how the pastor works. The thing I have seen/experienced is a very narrow definition of what "work" or hours actually is. For instance a lunch appointment would not count in many parishioners eyes. In many blue collar parts for the country where work equals physical labor some parishioners/board members see a pastors job as a cushy job.

My current assignment is very lax in this regard. I am officially "bivocational" and put in 30-70 hours a week. The fortunate part of my particular bi-vocation is I am part owner of the company so I get work my schedule around the church.

Like doug you could find me doing anything from rewiring lights to preaching.

In churches under 100 it is difficult to have a clearly defined job description, becuase there tends to be more gaps to fill, and they are ever changing.

Last week I mowed the lawn (8 acres) becuase the guy who normally does it got sick, and it was our super important VBS week.

[Greg Farra]

As a licensed minister, I keep track of all my ministry-related activities by the hour. I don't go into detail, but worship, sermon prep, maintainance, reading, visits, etc. all count towards ordination, or so I'm told. As a volunteer associate, I've put in over 40 hours in a week, but usually it's around 15-20.

[Dave McClung]

So what about "bi-vocational" pastors? by definition, they are "part-time." If the pastor is "part-time" then how does one quantify that?

They cut out the unnecessary activities. I know some bi-vocational pastors who work a full-time job and still find time to get all the really important things done.

[Pete Vecchi]

My current assignment is very lax in this regard. I am officially "bivocational" and put in 30-70 hours a week. The fortunate part of my particular bi-vocation is I am part owner of the company so I get work my schedule around the church.

Is that healthy? How do you keep from wearing out?

One thing I like to point out is that a job doesn't have to be "drudgery." To me, I am very inept at doing most types of manual labor; not only am I not a physically large person (and therefore unable to do a lot of "heavy" work), but I am also very bad at trying to tackle tasks that involve any skills that involve manual dexterity--especially with my hands. I find those kinds of things to more often than not be "drudgery." I'll be honest and say that I felt a genuine sense of accomplishment on Saturday morning when I got the baptistry successfully set up for a Sunday baptism--complete with attaching the hose, cleaning out the inside, making sure the drain was closed before I started filling the baptistry, and getting the heating mechanism to turn on. I also changed the air filters in the air conditioner/furnaces. That may not sound like much, but I am being totally honest when I say that I often feel at least a small sense of accomplishment after changing a light bulb (especially when the bulbs don't break in the process of my removing the burnt out ones).

On the other hand, I enjoyed the staff lunch meeting earlier in the week when we went to a restaurant specifically because I knew that a server who works there has come to our church to get bread during our Monday evening distributions and was talking about bringing one or both of her children to a church activity that's scheduled for a few days from now. To me, that was not drudgery, but still was work.

[Craig Laughlin]

So, aside from "the call" and the "white collar" viewpoint, what about the basic premise of that question with which I started: is participating in/leading the main worship service to be considered part of a pastor's job, or is it volunteer because the pastor is only participating in something that everyone else from the church is supposed to participate in?

Before I answer let me say I too object to counting hours for pastors for a lot of reasons some of which have been mentioned already. - I would encourage you to help your board grow in understanding in this matter. I once had a mentor say to me "remember, you are either blessing or cursing your successor" - I think that is right. Pray the person pastoring your next church is blessing you and do the same for the person who follows you. That being said...

Sunday morning is very much a part of the job. Pound for pound I get more pastoral work done on Sunday morning than any other time. It always leaves me excited about what God is doing and totally exhausted physically and emotionally. The more apt analogy would be the student and teacher. While the student is not being paid to be present the teacher certainly is because they have very different function in the time and place. - If they don't require you to be present then I guess it doesn't count, but if they expect you to be there then it counts. I would love to, like my laymen, be able to say - wow the last several weeks have been really tough, wife and I are going to take a three day weekend and get away. Pastor please get someone to cover my Sunday School class. Thanks, see you next week...

At my church we recently made a change specifically because we think Sunday is uber important. I used to, after the first song, stand up, greet folks, pray and start a greeting time among them. I would then sit down and sing along with the music. Now, a staff member does that and I am out in the foyer until just before I preach so that I can "schmooze" with the folks. We decided that personal contact with the pastor was much more important then me singing on the front row through another service. It has been the right choice. I am making contact with people I missed in the past and have significantly increase the number of minutes I have on a Sunday morning for people. -

[Pete Vecchi]

Before I answer let me say I too object to counting hours for pastors for a lot of reasons some of which have been mentioned already. - I would encourage you to help your board grow in understanding in this matter. I once had a mentor say to me "remember, you are either blessing or cursing your successor" - I think that is right. Pray the person pastoring your next church is blessing you and do the same for the person who follows you.

Just to make this clear,while I am indeed a pastor, I'm not specifically talking about me. I don't think (for example from my original posts) I ever remember anyone telling me that I'm paid to preach. I'm trying to make this discussion general in nature, and hoping that I will also hear some thoughts from others in the laity.

It seems pretty unanimous thus far that it is indeed considered part of the pastor's job to participate during the Sunday (or otherwise main) weekly service.

It seems also pretty obvious that the main, overall idea of most who have thus far responded (with which I tend to personally concur) is that "the call" is vital to keep in mind, and that it can entail basically anything that God asks the pastor to do--from (based on some of the responses thus far) preaching, to funerals, to playing golf with someone.

My next question is if there is anyone who would like to suggest something from their experiences or from the experiences of a pastoral situation of someone they have known or heard that called into question whether or not it was part of the pastor's "job." I'll refrain from mentioning anything, because I don't want it to sound as though this is about me.

[John O Comstock]

I think the biblical model for the role of a Pastor is to Preach, Pray and live the example before the folks. Certainly that includes personal contact and concern for there well being. The bible seems to me to teach that what a lot of Pastors are expected to do is like “waiting on tables” is really the laities responsibility. Waiting on tables to me is interpreted means caring for the many needs of the congregation. What I’ve learned is if the people are well fed with good spirit anointed preaching and a good example lived out they will grow and flouriest. To preach well you have to mix with your people to understand where they are living but at the same time you cannot neglect time for sermon preparation by doing to much waiting on tables. It’s a difficult balance but preaching and praying is the first job of a Pastor. Preaching preparation does include contact with the sheep.

[Larry Parsons]

I like what one pastor said when ask what did he do. He said I talk to God and I talk to people.
Thanks
Larry

[Dave McClung]

I think the biblical model for the role of a Pastor is to Preach, Pray and live the example before the folks. Certainly that includes personal contact and concern for there well being. The bible seems to me to teach that what a lot of Pastors are expected to do is like “waiting on tables” is really the laities responsibility. Waiting on tables to me is interpreted means caring for the many needs of the congregation. What I’ve learned is if the people are well fed with good spirit anointed preaching and a good example lived out they will grow and flouriest. To preach well you have to mix with your people to understand where they are living but at the same time you cannot neglect time for sermon preparation by doing to much waiting on tables. It’s a difficult balance but preaching and praying is the first job of a Pastor. Preaching preparation does include contact with the sheep.

I have heard pastors discuss how much time they spend in sermon preparation. I have preached enough to know that isn't a question that can be simply answered. Much of sermon preparation is allowing God to speak to you. That often takes place when you are also doing another activity. My father, a Nazarene pastor, said that his best sermons were prepared while he was fishing. Mine are often prepared while I am hiking, alone in the beautiful outdoors. One who wants to count hours is faced with the question, "Which were you doing, hiking or preparing a sermon?" The correct answer is "both."

People who are seeking to count hours, probably wouldn't be comfortable counting "alone time" as "work." I encourage every pastor to make sure you allow enough time to just be alone with God. That is some of the most important time you have as a pastor.

[Jim Franklin]

I am trying to figure out how my pastor father and mother, both ordained elders whould have answered the questions posed. One scripture that I always greet new ordinands with at an ordination service is the layman's request, "We would see Jesus." Something I heard my dad tell a new pastor was "love the congregation and the community and show that love by goibg above and beyond any requirements and expectations.

I know that there were times he took people to doctors appointment, visit relatives in hopitals who did not yhave their own transportation. He helped folks move, one member asked him at 59 to fill in for the Montgomery Ward softball team when one of their regulars was unavailable. He shoveled walks in the Dakotas for widow ladies. Mother seved as an aide to country doctors at baby birthings Many times pastoring income was what ever came in the offering which on one occassion was a nickle God's calling is the supreme factor in how a pastor carries out that calling, "What would Jesus do."

[Billy Cox]

What do people think about this particular issue?

Are there other specifics that people would like to discuss as generally being or not being part of a pastor's duties?

I perceive that the role of pastor has become comparable to that of owning a mom and pop charity. If that 'charity' is a soup kitchen, then the owner may do everything ranging from purchasing to food preparation to managing volunteers to mopping floors. In short, whatever keeps the organization afloat is fair game. If it has to be done, and nobody else does it, then the 'owner' does it.

With regard to board members who are conditioned to think of 'work' as being in a specific place for specific hours, I think some re-education is called for. Otherwise, I would think that such a person has no business being on the board of a small non-profit organization.

[Alisa Stoll]

As a matter of principle, I do not count hours that I perform duties, nor do I count calls, etc. If I interviewed at a church, and a time card, or call counting was required, I would decline right away. I will not treat people, or time with people as a commodity. I will not use people as a means to quantify job performance. No, no, no. As most are aware, if I count hours, I can make the stats look as good as I want. Phone calls, meeting for coffee, golfing with a board member could all "count" as hours. I have a great role, in that I get to invest in people. I get to talk with people. I have the privilege of going to concerts and ball games, and they even let me preach. I could fill my hours with many activities - look at how hard I work - look at all these hours. Yet if I am not meeting the needs of the people, they will know, regardless of the time card stats.

My duties as pastor change from year to year, and church to church. What is a role in one place, may not be a role in another. I paint, unstop a drain, change light bulbs, preach, teach, counsel, pick up chairs, meet for lunch, etc. All of life is part of my role, whatever that means in my setting now. In the last 8 years, I have pastored 3 different churches, and not once have I changed assignments.

Doug, we require our pastors to count hours - because we don't want them averaging more than 50 hours per week. We don't want the pastor's family to suffer the lack of a pastor. Would you decline our church right away?

As to Pete's original question - when we promoted our youth pastor to senior pastor, one of the understandings was that he did not want to invest time in preaching two sermons in one day. So he did Sunday AM and we had others with a call who rotated preaching Sunday nights. Since then we have eliminated preaching on Sunday nights in favor of Bible Study and prayer. As our associate Spanish pastor now shares in the Sunday morning preaching, our senior pastor has been part of the Sunday night rotation - though now he is leading a small community group so does not even participate on Sunday nights (though his children do). So no, as a board we do not even expect him to be at all services.

Alisa

[Pete Vecchi]

Doug, we require our pastors to count hours - because we don't want them averaging more than 50 hours per week. We don't want the pastor's family to suffer the lack of a pastor. Would you decline our church right away?

As to Pete's original question - when we promoted our youth pastor to senior pastor, one of the understandings was that he did not want to invest time in preaching two sermons in one day. So he did Sunday AM and we had others with a call who rotated preaching Sunday nights. Since then we have eliminated preaching on Sunday nights in favor of Bible Study and prayer. As our associate Spanish pastor now shares in the Sunday morning preaching, our senior pastor has been part of the Sunday night rotation - though now he is leading a small community group so does not even participate on Sunday nights (though his children do). So no, as a board we do not even expect him to be at all services.

Alisa

I personally appreciate the care that the board has taken in doing its best to see that the pastor is taken care of by trying to make sure he has a maximum number of hours per week. At the same time, I am wondering how that works on a practical level? If since the previous Sunday, the pastor has put in 49 hours, and on Saturday at 1:42pm he/she receives a call from someone in the church who has an immediate need (I mean a legitimate "need"--not, "Pastor, do you know where they put the table cloths after the last carry-in dinner? Somebody keeps moving them and every time I come in here I can't find them; you really need to do something about this!"). Obviously any good pastor would tend to the need. So is the 50 hours a guideline, is it written into a job description or something, and/or if 50 hours is exceeded one week is the pastor expected to cut down his/her hours by that much the next week?

Also, I thank you for the explanation on the Sunday services. When you mentioned not investing time into preaching two sermons in one day, was something like that put into a job description, or was it just an understanding between the pastor and the church/church board?

[Todd Erickson]

It's the Pastor's job to pick paper towels off the floor of the bathroom, because they're icky, and we don't want to.

it's the pastor's job to unlock the bathroom stalls after our kids lock them from the inside and then slide out the bottom for amusement.

it's the pastor's job to clean up all of our messes.

it's the pastor's job to take out the trash.

It's the pastor's job to bless my mess any time I have a problem, because we pay him to.

Like that?

[Pete Vecchi]

It's the Pastor's job to pick paper towels off the floor of the bathroom, because they're icky, and we don't want to.

it's the pastor's job to unlock the bathroom stalls after our kids lock them from the inside and then slide out the bottom for amusement.

it's the pastor's job to clean up all of our messes.

it's the pastor's job to take out the trash.

It's the pastor's job to bless my mess any time I have a problem, because we pay him to.

Like that?

Well, I wasn't specifically thinking of those types of things, but you know what--I'm sure that some people would want those kinds of things to be expected of a pastor.

Personally, I would hope that any of those things (except the last one listed) would be things that basically any church member would do if the church member came across that situation needing to be done.

[James Johnson]

I have battled with this topic in my own mind as a "Blue collar layman" for many years. If I could give pastor's any advice on this subject it would be to stop telling laymen how many hours they work! I have had pastor's tell me they work 80 hours a week and I will admit I fight rolling my eyes. 80 divided by 6 = 13.33 hours a day and being awake does not = working nor does being on this site or facebook etc etc things that would get most lay people dismissed from their jobs because for the most part it is not considered work, by the way I'm working nights and that is why I can be on this site at this time. That being said I appreciate what pastor's do and bring not only to their congregation but to the society they live in. I am a union construction worker and I know what I do and the physical wear and tear it has on me, my wife is a VP for a large corp and I know the hours she puts in. My wife an I never discuss the hours we put in and I will admit it takes a toll, but we also feel an obligation and are honored to serve the roles that we can within our local church. I also know the frustration of being asked more and more to fill more roles because others within the church are to busy (and they probably are). Many church's have gone to just one service a week where the pastor presents a message so laymen have a hard time understanding why many times they are asked to fullfil roles that historicaly were filled by the pastor or a staff member. I don't have all the answers but we are clearly all called into this work together and should not and can not allow it to come between us. Communication from the pastoral staff is vital in this area to the laymen of the church, I have found that when a need arises the church is faithful to fullfil the need. JMO and just trying to be as honest and open as I can from one layman's point of view, please do not take this has critical towards pastors because that's not the intention.

[Craig Laughlin]

I have battled with this topic in my own mind as a "Blue collar layman" for many years. If I could give pastor's any advice on this subject it would be to stop telling laymen how many hours they work! I have had pastor's tell me they work 80 hours a week and I will admit I fight rolling my eyes. 80 divided by 6 = 13.33 hours a day and being awake does not = working nor does being on this site or facebook etc etc things that would get most lay people dismissed from their jobs because for the most part it is not considered work, by the way I'm working nights and that is why I can be on this site at this time.

James thanks for the transparent response. I was surprised that you listed Facebook and Naznet as nonwork.

Facebook has become for me a lifeline to the younger families in my church. It is the #1 way that young families connect with me, especially new folks. It is also how I keep up with what is going on in their lives. It very often is the way I learn that something has happened. It is also the way they share personal information. They will send me a private Facebook Message. Additionally our churches Facebook page is huge with this crowd. We share lots of pictures, video's and information. http://www.facebook.com/pages/Marysv...z/336739205187

Also check out my personal page. (It is wide open) http://www.facebook.com/craig.laughlin.79 Almost everything you see on it is church related. There is a little from other folks but not much. My interactions with them are all in the context of Pastor.

In addition to that many of our ministries have Facebook pages that they use to keep the members of the ministry in touch with each other. I take pictures from some of these to post on the main church Facebook page. Lastly, probably our most popular page is our Prayer page which has taken the place of our prayer chain. It is a "closed" page so only folks attached to our church can see what is on it. It is very active and folks can update their own information. My personal take on it is if a pastor is not Facebook savvy then she/he is probably not effectively ministering to the younger generation.

I share this because I think it illustrates why pastors often tell people how many hours they work. I think it comes from a certain insecurity that people only value limited pastoral roles but do not agree on what those roles should be. You don't value Facebook, I would discipline my staff it they didn't keep up with Facebook. Someone else in the congregation doesn't think going to lunch with parishioners is work, I think it is some of the most productive time we have with people. Another person doesn't think Sunday morning is work, for me it is my biggest day and on and on it goes. - The poor pastor, despite working a lot of hours, feels like they are constantly devalued. One of the most difficult parts of pastoring, especially in solo pastorates, is managing the wide range and passionately held list of expectations.

[James Johnson]

Good points Craig, and this is why communication is so important between pastors and laymen on this subject because you made the light bulb come on for me that facebook can be a lot more than just playtime which is all I've ever used it for.

[Pete Vecchi]

I want to sincerely thank James for that layman's point of view! And from the outset, let me state emphatically that the things I am going to say are not meant to be negative or complaining in any way, but rather explanatory in nature.

What James said about not wanting to hear about pastors working 80-hour weeks is interesting. It helps me to realize that different people see things in different lights. Let me explain.

Part of the reason why I started this topic was because of conversations I've had recently with some people regarding pastors' and associate pastors' remuneration, schedules, job expectations, etc... Those conversations brought to mind many of the issues I've seen other pastors and/or church staff work with over the past nearly 27 years that I have been involved in church ministries (as a non-clergy staff member, as a layperson not on staff, as a layperson board member, and as clergy). It seems that all too often, no matter what a pastor or staff person does, someone isn't happy.

My experiences tell me that most likely, pastors who try to show how they work 80 hours per week (or for that matter, any other number of hours per week) are attempting to respond to a question someone had. It was probably, though, not an "up front" question. It was probably more along the lines of the pastor hearing talk that people wonder if the pastor earns his/her compensation, or what a pastor does all week besides Sunday morning. Oftentimes, it's not a single incident that brings this to the forefront, but rather an accumulation of years' worth of experiences.

My earliest church staff position began in 1984 when I was called (or hired) to be a "Congregational Youth Associate" (CYA) in a non-Nazarene congregation (I think this was before I'd ever even heard of the Church of the Nazarene). My job was specifically called a "half-time" job, with the expectations that I was to put in 20-24 hours a week, within various broad and some specific guidelines. For the first year things went well. At the end of the first year, I went to my annual training (something that was required by that denomination for a church to be part of the CYA program, and which was required by the CYA program of anyone serving as a CYA). While I was away, the church board held its regular monthly meeting and a discussion ensured as to just what I actually did. Despite the fact that I gave them regular monthly reports, and that specific youth ministries were being developed and underway in the church, the church board decided in my absence that it wanted more of an accounting--specifically as to how I spent my 20-24 hours per week for which I was paid (Parenthetically, I always sensed that the church treasurer was never happy with having to pay me--just from idiosyncrasies I'd notice and the way she would say things when she would hand me my paycheck; I later found out that she brought the idea to the church board that part of my job ought to be cleaning and straightening out the pews--even though there was already a custodial staff--and checking all of the pencils each week in the pew racks and sharpen the ones that needed sharpening).

So, prior to the next regularly scheduled board meeting, I went through my calendar from the past 12 months and tried to reconstruct 4 specific weeks that I thought would give a good representation of the past year. I included the one week over the past year that I had spent the most hours on this job (as I recall, it was like 58 hours for this 20-24-hour-per week job), the one week over the past year when I had spent the least amount of time (16 hours--I remember that one specifically all these years later--during one week in the summer when the vast majority of the youth were away with their families), and two weeks that were what I considered to be pretty "typical"--where I spent between 24 and 28 hours per week in this job that was defined as a 20-24-hour-per week position.

Here's what happened. Not one person commented on the 58-hour week I'd put in, nor did they comment on the typical weeks. The only comments I heard were about the one lone week over the past year when I'd failed to attain the minimum of 20 hours. To top it off, people actually said during that meeting that since some of those hours were during the Sunday morning times when everyone is expected to be there anyway, that 16 hours should have been listed as more like 12 hours.

In the ensuing years, I've found that situation to be one that has played a part in why I feel I at times that I have to "justify" to people how much work I put in. That's because in basically every pastorate I've experienced--either personally as a pastor, as part of a church staff, as simply a congregation member, and as a church board member (not to mention the numbers of pastors to whom I have spoken during my years in ministry with whose congregations I really have no connection), there has almost always been somebody who brings up the question of just what the pastor does and/or how much time the pastor spends in doing ministry work. So to me, explaining these things has become somewhat of a conditioned response--if not sometimes also a way to try to deal with the question before it comes up.

On the other hand, James has brought up the other side of the situation: there are almost always people who don't want to hear "how hard the pastor works."

And therein lies the quandary. When a pastor is supposed to shepherd an entire congregation, and some people want a specific accounting of the pastor's activities and time, while other people don't want it, the pastor can find him/herself in a situation when, no matter what he/she does, someone's not going to be happy.

And for the record, I am not saying these things in any way to complain. Things are what they are, and I work within the way things are.

And once more, my sincere thanks to James for sharing his honest opinion!

[Billy Cox]

I share this because I think it illustrates why pastors often tell people how many hours they work. I think it comes from a certain insecurity that people only value limited pastoral roles but do not agree on what those roles should be. You don't value Facebook, I would discipline my staff it they didn't keep up with Facebook. Someone else in the congregation doesn't think going to lunch with parishioners is work, I think it is some of the most productive time we have with people. Another person doesn't think Sunday morning is work, for me it is my biggest day and on and on it goes. - The poor pastor, despite working a lot of hours, feels like they are constantly devalued. One of the most difficult parts of pastoring, especially in solo pastorates, is managing the wide range and passionately held list of expectations.

The pastor I am most familiar with is a conflicted introvert - meaning that he could easily sit in the office most of the day and keep up with people via email and Facebook, but someone from his pastoral preparation years convinced him that face to face (usually 1-2 people at a time)...is where 'real ministry' happens and time spent 'staring at a computer screen' is a tragic waste of time.

He honestly tried to convince me that I should likewise see introversion as a thorn in the flesh. For a time, he succeeded.

I'll stop there because it makes my heart hurt to talk about it.

[Billy Cox]

My experiences tell me that most likely, pastors who try to show how they work 80 hours per week (or for that matter, any other number of hours per week) are attempting to respond to a question someone had. It was probably, though, not an "up front" question. It was probably more along the lines of the pastor hearing talk that people wonder if the pastor earns his/her compensation, or what a pastor does all week besides Sunday morning. Oftentimes, it's not a single incident that brings this to the forefront, but rather an accumulation of years' worth of experiences.

When I was part of a church plant, the pastor frequently talked about how much time he spent 'working'...funny thing, 80 hours seems to be the holy grail.

At the time I saw it as boasting, but since I've had time to think about it, it surely was insecurity. This was the pastor's second pastorate and his starting salary/benefits package was $50K per year. He probably felt like he had to justify that type of compensation because it was so much more than he made doing part-time work for NPH and odd jobs. I'm relatively certain that his first pastorate didn't pay a living wage either since he was the final pastor of that church. I think he was also aware that most of his peers with far more experience were paid far less than he was getting right out of seminary.

I therefore suggest that pastors who talk about how hard they work may be responding to the accusations in their own mind - namely that they are not valuable enough to be making 'x' number of dollars. Whether the accusation has merit or not is beyond my ability to judge.

This isn't even isolated to pastors. I have been a paid church musician for about 4 years now and I have referred some of my musician friends to paid positions. With rare exception, they have felt like they were robbing God by accepting pay for doing what they were accustomed to doing for no pay. Afterward I felt ashamed for trying to 'help them'.

I think that in the church there is an abundance of unhealthy attitudes toward money. It's really a shame.

[Pete Vecchi]

The pastor I am most familiar with is a conflicted introvert - meaning that he could easily sit in the office most of the day and keep up with people via email and Facebook, but someone from his pastoral preparation years convinced him that face to face (usually 1-2 people at a time)...is where 'real ministry' happens and time spent 'staring at a computer screen' is a tragic waste of time.

He honestly tried to convince me that I should likewise see introversion as a thorn in the flesh. For a time, he succeeded.

I'll stop there because it makes my heart hurt to talk about it.

I'm sorry to hear about this. I think it all plays into the insecurity some pastors can feel because no matter what they do, there's almost always someone out there who thinks that there's a better way to do things.

[Pete Vecchi]

Facebook has become for me a lifeline to the younger families in my church. It is the #1 way that young families connect with me, especially new folks. It is also how I keep up with what is going on in their lives. It very often is the way I learn that something has happened. It is also the way they share personal information. They will send me a private Facebook Message.

Amen to that! I was explaining the other day to someone how internet communications have almost completely replaced what used to be telephone communications for me. That includes Facebook. For the first time in my ministry, everyone on the church board has internet service. They also all have Facebook, so we are often able to communicate between meetings via Facebook.

[James Johnson]

My pastor in the Kansas city metro area does a very good and might I add smart job of reporting to the church board on a monthly basis by breaking down books read, hospital visits etc etc the problem is this is something not seen or heard by anyone except the board. Like I said communication is everything and the fact still remains no matter what you report or do as a pastor some will always question or believe it's not enough. As long as you can look yourself in the mirror and stand before God with an honest evaluation of the fact you're doing your best and using your time properly than that's just got to be good enough. God Bless you as pastors for what you do and know you are appreciated, sometimes the verbal few seem stronger than the silent majority even though we both know or anyway we hope that's not the case! Communicate communicate communicate.

[Craig Laughlin]

Amen to that! I was explaining the other day to someone how internet communications have almost completely replaced what used to be telephone communications for me. That includes Facebook. For the first time in my ministry, everyone on the church board has internet service. They also all have Facebook, so we are often able to communicate between meetings via Facebook.

You brought back a memory... When I was in college I remember Dr. Kinzler, then at college church in Nampa, sharing with a bunch of us first year students how he did very little "calling" in people's homes because he used the phone. He went on to say that in many ways the phone was superior because people would say things over the phone that they would not say looking him in the face. - I was scandalized! - I grew up in a church of 40 and the pastor always called in our home! I later came to understand that he was spot on and now I use the internet much, much more than the phone. -- constant change.

[Pete Vecchi]

You brought back a memory... When I was in college I remember Dr. Kinzler, then at college church in Nampa, sharing with a bunch of us first year students how he did very little "calling" in people's homes because he used the phone. He went on to say that in many ways the phone was superior because people would say things over the phone that they would not say looking him in the face. - I was scandalized! - I grew up in a church of 40 and the pastor always called in our home! I later came to understand that he was spot on and now I use the internet much, much more than the phone. -- constant change.

And I am dreading the high likelihood that I'll have to soon upgrade to a more expensive cell phone and/or start following Twitter, and or posting things church-related to Facebook from my phone. I have thus far been able to avoid that step; it keeps me at least somewhat in control of my schedule in that I don't do internet communications unless I am at my computer.

That's one of the reasons why I tend to try to totally stay off my computer on my one day off per week (which right now is scheduled for tomorrow, so if no one sees any responses on here from me tomnorrow, well that will probably be why).

[David Gerber]

For what it is worth:

First, 78.25% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

Second, the most important thing for me, as far as I understand the pastorate, is that the life of a pastor should be follow-able. Here is what I mean: a picture is worth a thousand words. Is my life a "do as I do" or "do as I say, not as I do"? Do I make time for my wife? Do I make time for my kids (both of which I will have far longer than I will have any of my pastorates put together)? Do I take my health and fitness seriously? Do I take regular and adequate times of rest and Sabbath? Are there activities outside of 'church life' that give me life and in which I find enjoyment?

Here's the point: If the only thing I could do for discipleship was to invite someone to follow me from the beginning of my day until the end of my day for 30,60, or 90 days would they be lead into rhythms of life that bring life? Would they see adequate care for the soul when confronted with extreme stress and high emotional engagement? Would they see the value of self-care in those times? Would they recognize the value of family, etc?

What drives my work and the hours I put in? Do I think I have to be someone in other people's eyes? Do I dream of being like the 'famous' pastors? Answer those questions and see if the work load shifts dramatically. Do I need to be needed?

Some things I have told my previous board and the senior pastor of the church I now serve: I will be the best pastor I can be without damaging my health (mental and physical) or my relationship with my wife and daughter.

As for the Sunday not being work thing, I think Craig said it too, If Sunday isn't my job why do you expect me to show up every week and would likely fire me if I didn't show up one Sunday because family was coming into town?

I reported my hours for a little while to my board. The never asked about my personal well-being or whether or not I was taking days off or when I would take a vacation. So, I quit reporting the numbers. If I was preaching, reaching, teaching, and...I can't find a word that works for discipleship (Discipleshipping, yes!) then I was getting my job done regardless of how many hours I work.

Blah, blah, blah....

Dead Leader Running:

[Alisa Stoll]

I personally appreciate the care that the board has taken in doing its best to see that the pastor is taken care of by trying to make sure he has a maximum number of hours per week. At the same time, I am wondering how that works on a practical level? If since the previous Sunday, the pastor has put in 49 hours, and on Saturday at 1:42pm he/she receives a call from someone in the church who has an immediate need (I mean a legitimate "need"--not, "Pastor, do you know where they put the table cloths after the last carry-in dinner? Somebody keeps moving them and every time I come in here I can't find them; you really need to do something about this!"). Obviously any good pastor would tend to the need. So is the 50 hours a guideline, is it written into a job description or something, and/or if 50 hours is exceeded one week is the pastor expected to cut down his/her hours by that much the next week?

Also, I thank you for the explanation on the Sunday services. When you mentioned not investing time into preaching two sermons in one day, was something like that put into a job description, or was it just an understanding between the pastor and the church/church board?

There are times when an emergency comes up or something special is going on at the church and the hours exceed 50. Typically they do cut back in the following weeks. The staff policy states" Full time pastors work 45-50 hours per week which includes Sunday morning, Sunday evening, and mid-week services. Expectations and work hours for part time Pastoral Staff will be determined b he Senior Pastor and Church Board. The demands placed upon pastoral staff make it difficult to maintain a consistent work schedule. For this reason, staff must complete a schedule of their "normal" working hours and record any deviations to this schedule in the staff notebook located in the main office. Staff is expected to track the number of hours worked each week. Supporting other staff members and church leaders in various activities/ministries is also a unique challenge for our pastors. Therefore, it is critical that each pastor properly prioritize their time and responsibilities. The organization, responsibilities and management of your primary ministry must always take priority. Part-time employees in particular need to carefully apply their working hours first to their specific ministry and secondarily to supporting roles, while avoiding working excess hours. Hours and ministry involvement will be regularly reviewed with the Senior Pastor." (Staff spent almost 6 years creating a 13 page Staff Policy document which was brought to the church board last meeting and will be voted on next month. It covers employment policies, working hours, compensation, allowances/reimbursement, records/reporting, meetings/reviews, time off, vacation guidelines, paid holidays, sabbaticals, sic time, maternity/paternity leave, family and medical leave act (copy of gov. policy).

If a staff member consistently exceeds 50 hours then the senior pastor works with them. If the senior pastor does - then it is the board's responsibility.

Each member is now supposed to have a general job description on file. At the time Mark was promoted, I don't believe that was in place and it was merely an understanding between the board that hired him and him.

Alisa

[Rich Schmidt]

(Staff spent almost 6 years creating a 13 page Staff Policy document which was brought to the church board last meeting and will be voted on next month. It covers employment policies, working hours, compensation, allowances/reimbursement, records/reporting, meetings/reviews, time off, vacation guidelines, paid holidays, sabbaticals, sic time, maternity/paternity leave, family and medical leave act (copy of gov. policy).

I don't want to derail this thread, but I'd love a copy of that document, if there's any way you could get it to me.

[Larry Parsons]

I have heard pastors discuss how much time they spend in sermon preparation. I have preached enough to know that isn't a question that can be simply answered. Much of sermon preparation is allowing God to speak to you. That often takes place when you are also doing another activity. My father, a Nazarene pastor, said that his best sermons were prepared while he was fishing. Mine are often prepared while I am hiking, alone in the beautiful outdoors. One who wants to count hours is faced with the question, "Which were you doing, hiking or preparing a sermon?" The correct answer is "both."

People who are seeking to count hours, probably wouldn't be comfortable counting "alone time" as "work." I encourage every pastor to make sure you allow enough time to just be alone with God. That is some of the most important time you have as a pastor.

Dave, I heard of great holiness preacher say some of his best sermon came to him when was on the pot.
Thanks
Larry