Mormon charity, theology and etc - the latest news

[Marian Schwaller Carney]

I just read this, and some of the comments posted by readers found below the article. One, or more, suggests that Mormons leaders are softening on orthodox views of our faith. I've been praying for that for years! Have you heard anything about such movement in their thought?

The storehouses are amazing. My question mostly is, why is it Nazarenes have not done this when it seems so close to what we hold dear, too? We have our Crisis Care Kits and those warehouses, and that is great. This really takes it up several levels though it seems. What do you think?

http://rockcenter.nbcnews.com/_news/...afety-net?lite

[Gina Stevenson]

Read some of the responses ... did you read far enough to learn that the good ol' KJV has been around 2000 years!? Some poor person let their ignorance slip out.

[Betty Bolerjack]

Good question, Marian. We do have things like Love Link here in OKC, but it pales in comparison. I've gotten to "know" a number of Mormons online in the past couple of years and, while they hold some pretty weird beliefs, I've been amazed at their love and compassion. Kinda puts us to shame.

[Greg Farra]

One of my former pastors tells the story of being caught in a hurricane in the South back in the 60's. A local school was set up as a safe place to stay. The LDS came in with cots for people to sleep on- their own people, and no one else.

[Jim Chabot]

I just read this, and some of the comments posted by readers found below the article. One, or more, suggests that Mormons leaders are softening on orthodox views of our faith. I've been praying for that for years! Have you heard anything about such movement in their thought?

The storehouses are amazing. My question mostly is, why is it Nazarenes have not done this when it seems so close to what we hold dear, too? We have our Crisis Care Kits and those warehouses, and that is great. This really takes it up several levels though it seems. What do you think?

http://rockcenter.nbcnews.com/_news/...afety-net?lite

Great stuff Marion, thanks for sharing! Beyond the scale of their operation, I'm seeing where their methodology is superior as well. From what I'm seeing, they use a similar model to the Salvation Army. They don't just go out and spread compassion around, they make folks aware that they are willing and able and then allow folks to come to them. This appears to be compassion coupled with the greater compassion of evangelism! It would be great to see Nazarene's come around to this methodology, we seem to favor an organic effort and my estimation is that we are soft on evangelism, many seem to believe that the alleviation of human suffering is evangelism in and of itself. I disagree, the bulk of my giving goes to the Army and to Teen Challenge. I sure would love to see Nazarene's reach out in a way that I could get behind.

I'm hearing the same thing regarding Mormon's softening their stance on some of their fringe doctrines. Personally I have no issue with calling them brothers and sisters in Christ. The existence of Mormons is the reason for my objection to creedal orthodoxy, while it is good that we recognize all who agree with the creeds as brothers and sisters, when we exclude others by this method, I'm out. Take some time and read their statements of faith from their website, it's encouraging!

[Benjamin Hobbs]

I just read this, and some of the comments posted by readers found below the article. One, or more, suggests that Mormons leaders are softening on orthodox views of our faith. I've been praying for that for years! Have you heard anything about such movement in their thought?

The storehouses are amazing. My question mostly is, why is it Nazarenes have not done this when it seems so close to what we hold dear, too? We have our Crisis Care Kits and those warehouses, and that is great. This really takes it up several levels though it seems. What do you think?

http://rockcenter.nbcnews.com/_news/...afety-net?lite

No, the Mormon leadership is not softening up at all. They want to be seen as mainline Christians, but without abandoning any of the heretical doctrines.

As to the reason why Nazarenes don't have canneries, storehouses and loads of money, it's simple. Our salvation and/or good standing in the church does not depend on them (it does with Mormons).

[Benjamin Hobbs]

One of my former pastors tells the story of being caught in a hurricane in the South back in the 60's. A local school was set up as a safe place to stay. The LDS came in with cots for people to sleep on- their own people, and no one else.

That type of mindset continues to show it's ugly head with the Western Fires crisis. Since Mormons consider their meeting houses consecrated for purity they won't allow any coffee, tea, or tobacco anywhere on the premises. That's understandable. What isn't understandable is that they are the only faith group not allowing anyone to stay on or use their facilities for fear of violating this "consecration".

I know this from contact with someone who was setting up relief efforts. Even when the organization of Churches offered to mitigate any use of any of those substances on Mormon property (i.e. weed out families that would use such from being located there) the mormons refused.

[Benjamin Hobbs]

Great stuff Marion, thanks for sharing! Beyond the scale of their operation, I'm seeing where their methodology is superior as well. From what I'm seeing, they use a similar model to the Salvation Army. They don't just go out and spread compassion around, they make folks aware that they are willing and able and then allow folks to come to them. This appears to be compassion coupled with the greater compassion of evangelism! It would be great to see Nazarene's come around to this methodology, we seem to favor an organic effort and my estimation is that we are soft on evangelism, many seem to believe that the alleviation of human suffering is evangelism in and of itself. I disagree, the bulk of my giving goes to the Army and to Teen Challenge. I sure would love to see Nazarene's reach out in a way that I could get behind.

I'm hearing the same thing regarding Mormon's softening their stance on some of their fringe doctrines. Personally I have no issue with calling them brothers and sisters in Christ. The existence of Mormons is the reason for my objection to creedal orthodoxy, while it is good that we recognize all who agree with the creeds as brothers and sisters, when we exclude others by this method, I'm out. Take some time and read their statements of faith from their website, it's encouraging!

I don't mean to divert this thread, but you really should have an issue with calling them brothers and sisters in Christ.

They deny the diety of Christ, monotheism, the uniqueness of God, and many other key doctrines. Once you start recognizing as well that they use Christian vocabulary with completely different underlying definitions it becomes a whole different ballgame.

As a missionary to the LDS people I would be glad to help you "translate" what they are saying. But again, any faith that has teachings like:

-God saying that his purpose is "to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man". (Meaning that God is here to glorify and teach men how to become gods like him)

- "it is necessary we should understand the character and being of God and how He came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. These are incomprehensible ideas to some, but they are simple. It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, and to know that we may converse with Him as one man converses with another, and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; and I will show it from the Bible."

...is definitely not a Christian (much less orthodox) faith.

[Marian Schwaller Carney]

No, the Mormon leadership is not softening up at all. They want to be seen as mainline Christians, but without abandoning any of the heretical doctrines.

As to the reason why Nazarenes don't have canneries, storehouses and loads of money, it's simple. Our salvation and/or good standing in the church does not depend on them (it does with Mormons).

Oh, that is an interesting point, Benjamin. An incentive. It also occurs to me that tithing, which is paying for a lot of this in the first place, is almost like taxing, you are expected to do it and I don't get the sense there is the slippage in that we see in our churches.

[Marian Schwaller Carney]

That type of mindset continues to show it's ugly head with the Western Fires crisis. Since Mormons consider their meeting houses consecrated for purity they won't allow any coffee, tea, or tobacco anywhere on the premises. That's understandable. What isn't understandable is that they are the only faith group not allowing anyone to stay on or use their facilities for fear of violating this "consecration".

I know this from contact with someone who was setting up relief efforts. Even when the organization of Churches offered to mitigate any use of any of those substances on Mormon property (i.e. weed out families that would use such from being located there) the mormons refused.

This is good to know. There does seem to be a sort of separatism. Amazing that any religious group claiming to follow Jesus could refuse people in trouble some simple creature comforts - runs exactly counter to his words to the Pharisees.

[Jim Chabot]

Oh, that is an interesting point, Benjamin. An incentive. It also occurs to me that tithing, which is paying for a lot of this in the first place, is almost like taxing, you are expected to do it and I don't get the sense there is the slippage in that we see in our churches.

And our good standing in the Church of The Nazarene, most assuredly depends upon tithing. The Mormons are better at getting the message to the masses, our manual does require that our members tithe, we don't really try to enforce it excepting for Board members and leaders.

[John Kennedy]

Oh, that is an interesting point, Benjamin. An incentive. It also occurs to me that tithing, which is paying for a lot of this in the first place, is almost like taxing, you are expected to do it and I don't get the sense there is the slippage in that we see in our churches.

One of the reasons you don't see the 'slippage' is because of the rapid proliferation of LDS temples, buildings set apart for rites like marriage, baptism for the dead, endowments/blessings. When I lived in Utah there were probably less than a dozen in the entire world. Now their constructed as soon as the LDS strength in the area makes them feasible.

You can attend an LDS chapel anywhere - you don't enter a temple without a ticked signed by your 'ward' (local meetinghouse) bishop attesting to your being in good standing, including being up-do-date on your tithing, among other things.

In the LDS church being able to participate in temple ceremonies is not just the 'icing on the religious cake' - it's inextricably tied to you and your family's place both temporally and eternally.

[Jim Chabot]

One of the reasons you don't see the 'slippage' is because of the rapid proliferation of LDS temples, buildings set apart for rites like marriage, baptism for the dead, endowments/blessings. When I lived in Utah there were probably less than a dozen in the entire world. Now their constructed as soon as the LDS strength in the area makes them feasible.

You can attend an LDS chapel anywhere - you don't enter a temple without a ticked signed by your 'ward' (local meetinghouse) bishop attesting to your being in good standing, including being up-do-date on your tithing, among other things.

In the LDS church being able to participate in temple ceremonies is not just the 'icing on the religious cake' - it's inextricably tied to you and your family's place both temporally and eternally.

Even the pseudo mormons out here have similar practices. Years back we sang at a couple of their churches and their camp, and I have a habit of picking up statements of faith and reading them through so that I don't inadvertently say something offensive while there. I remember being surprised at their view on tithing. When one enters into membership, they ask for a tithe. The person is to calculate their net worth and submit a check equal to one tenth of it.

So if anyone is thinking of joining up, just borrow big and underestimate your assets, or it's gonna cost ya!

Oops, did I say that out loud?

[Greg Farra]

Jim,

Up until the time of the Salt Lake City Olympics, the LDS took great pains to not identify with orthodx Christianity. They have been on a PR campaign to present thenselves as just another Christian denomination. What they may have on their main webpage is probably a lot of fluff, but if you delve into their faith a little bit you will find that they consider themselves the true church and the others apostate. Brothers in Christ? Hardly. Search deeper.

[Jim Chabot]

Jim,

Up until the time of the Salt Lake City Olympics, the LDS took great pains to not identify with orthodx Christianity. They have been on a PR campaign to present thenselves as just another Christian denomination. What they may have on their main webpage is probably a lot of fluff, but if you delve into their faith a little bit you will find that they consider themselves the true church and the others apostate. Brothers in Christ? Hardly. Search deeper.

I hear ya. But I also distinctly remember having a copy of "How to Bring Catholics to Christ." And I remember the joked about how surprised the Nazarene's were going to be when they discovered others in heaven. There's a whole lot of fundamentalist churches that consider most others apostate. That's something that they may hold against me, but I'm not going to hold it against them.

I can also remember back when a bunch of folks accused Billy Graham of preaching the truth as a subtle way of leading people astray. If the LDS Church is publicly affirming Christ as their sole Savior and Lord, I'll take them at their word.

[Greg Farra]

Different Jesus, different gospel.

[Benjamin Hobbs]

Even the pseudo mormons out here have similar practices. Years back we sang at a couple of their churches and their camp, and I have a habit of picking up statements of faith and reading them through so that I don't inadvertently say something offensive while there. I remember being surprised at their view on tithing. When one enters into membership, they ask for a tithe. The person is to calculate their net worth and submit a check equal to one tenth of it.

So if anyone is thinking of joining up, just borrow big and underestimate your assets, or it's gonna cost ya!

Oops, did I say that out loud?

Glad you don't have yearly "tithing settlement" meetings with your pastor now aren't you?

[Benjamin Hobbs]

Different Jesus, different gospel.

Absolutely, I still can't believe the difference isn't known worldwide.

The Mormon Jesus (if you guys didn't know this) is the first spirit child of Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother (no not kidding). He is the elder brother of Lucifer and every human and angel. He volunteered to be the savoir of the world so that everyone would get a resurrection and be able to progress to godhood.

The "gospel" in Mormonism is every precept, every task, every teaching and requirement to attain godhood. It describes every doctrine, and way to live the proper life in eternal progression. So when you hear a Mormon say "you need to live the gospel" that's what they mean. It certainly isn't the Good News Christians know of.

[Benjamin Hobbs]

I hear ya. But I also distinctly remember having a copy of "How to Bring Catholics to Christ." And I remember the joked about how surprised the Nazarene's were going to be when they discovered others in heaven. There's a whole lot of fundamentalist churches that consider most others apostate. That's something that they may hold against me, but I'm not going to hold it against them.

I can also remember back when a bunch of folks accused Billy Graham of preaching the truth as a subtle way of leading people astray. If the LDS Church is publicly affirming Christ as their sole Savior and Lord, I'll take them at their word.

Even when that "Christ" is a completely different person than you believe in? Even when they expect to become gods just like their older brother Christ and the Father Himself?

[John Kennedy]

I always have a certain degree of ambivalence when writing about the LDS Church. My parents pastored a Nazarene church in Provo, UT in the mid-fifties. Every family in the church, save one, worked in the huge US Steel mill in Orem (Osmond City, USA). The one exception worked for Mountain States Telephone. That's worth noting because in those days, outside Salt Lake and Ogden, Gentiles simply didn't make it economically in Utah. That was one of the reasons the Church fought building the mill during WWII.
The ambivalence comes from the fact that probably no American religion has had a greater impact on the area of its predominance. I knew a lot of wonderful Mormon people. They do certainly take care of their own, but they also exert a tremendous amount of control on their people.
I can recall as a Nazarene teen going to camp and studying a couirse called Believe and Behave (You love the Lord, you DO THIS and you DON'T DO THAT).
In terms of behavior control, the Mormons would've turned some of the super-legalistic Nazarenes I knew green with envy.
As far as beliefs are concerned, Mormon theology is essentially what the church's general authorities say it is.
I will leave to God whether or not they are my brothers and sisters in Christ. I'm an American and devoutly believe that one's religious beliefs are betweeen themselves and God. NOMB!
An interesting website that NNers might find interesting is www.mormoncurtain.org (or maybe .com).

[Benjamin Hobbs]

Just so no one misunderstands, I love the Mormon people. I hurt for them. Romans 10:2-3 definitely speaks to me concerning them.

Yes, the Mormons have it down on evangelism in numbers and effort. Yes, the Mormons have it down when it comes to owning canneries, filling storehouses and doing service for elder church members.

But they also have it on the heresy front. I've attended LDS services for years (for a different reason than you might expect) and the culture isn't Christian in nature. Take it from me, it's a pretty picture in the commercials and from the outside... but inside it's nothing more than than rotting men's bones.

[Jim Chabot]

Even when that "Christ" is a completely different person than you believe in? Even when they expect to become gods just like their older brother Christ and the Father Himself?

Hey Benjamin, relax, take it easy. I have no idea who you are or of your experience, but you definitely appear to be protesting just a bit on the strong side here. Spend some time here, check the place out, get involved, maybe once we know each other we could have this conversation.

I've got to tell you that half of naznet believes in a Christ that isn't easily recognizable to me, and some of them have said so coming back in the other direction as well. This isn't exactly the place to be getting folks worried about a little heresy, believe me. I realize that they hold heretical doctrines, I don't believe that they are excluded from the kingdom. Everyone who calls upon the name of Jesus will be saved.

Hey Catholics actually believe that the eucharist becomes the literal body of Christ. They believe a lot of strange stuff about Mary, and apostolic succession, papal authority etc..... We don't exclude them, come on, don't tell me that they are ok and the Mormons are out because of creedal orthodoxy.

[Greg Farra]

But in Catholicism you do have the Triune God. Jim, you seem to have something against the ancient ecumenical creeds of the church, which the Manual affirms are a part of our beliefs.

[Jim Chabot]

But in Catholicism you do have the Triune God. Jim, you seem to have something against the ancient ecumenical creeds of the church, which the Manual affirms are a part of our beliefs.

I've got nothing against the ancient creeds, I affirm them as does the manual. But no they are not part of our beliefs, they are not part of our faith statements. Rather we point to the creeds and say hey look, we are good with these, please call us Christians too. So it is by the creeds that we claim our little corner of Christianity. Do we point to these same creeds in a manner that says, hey look those guys operate outside of the creeds, yank their card! Nope, I'm not going to do that. I highly respect the creeds as used as a tool of inclusivity, however I'll give no space to those who use them as a tool of control, inclusivity or bigotry.

Hey, I've even been properly called a heretic here on naznet, due to a misinterpretation of one of the creeds as applied to my beliefs. Glad to see the creeds extended as a lifeline, not so glad to see them used as a garrote.

Check the manual, there are but two references to the creeds. Both references are given as protection against those who would call us a cult, nothing more.

[Cam Pence]

Wow...so Jim is the one not conservative enough? This is like the twilight zone....I think I need to lay down

[Benjamin Hobbs]

Hey Benjamin, relax, take it easy. I have no idea who you are or of your experience, but you definitely appear to be protesting just a bit on the strong side here. Spend some time here, check the place out, get involved, maybe once we know each other we could have this conversation.

I'm pretty relaxed, although it is a bit of an insult to be told "take it easy".

I've got to tell you that half of naznet believes in a Christ that isn't easily recognizable to me, and some of them have said so coming back in the other direction as well. This isn't exactly the place to be getting folks worried about a little heresy, believe me. I realize that they hold heretical doctrines, I don't believe that they are excluded from the kingdom. Everyone who calls upon the name of Jesus will be saved.

They don't believe they are saved. Please don't feel that you have to be generously ignorant about their salvation or about whether they believe they are "part of the kingdom". They believe they and only they are the Church (big "c"), their founding statement includes God having said that all other churches are an "abomination" to him and that "all their professors [were] corrupt." I could go on witht he "whore of Babylon" references if you'd like.

Hey Catholics actually believe that the eucharist becomes the literal body of Christ. They believe a lot of strange stuff about Mary, and apostolic succession, papal authority etc..... We don't exclude them, come on, don't tell me that they are ok and the Mormons are out because of creedal orthodoxy.

I don't believe Catholicism or Mormonism are Christian, not creedal Christian, not orthodox Christian. Mormons can be Christians, but Mormonism... nope, it's been declaring itself "true Christianity" from the get go.

And my experience is over a decade of studying Mormon doctrine, having plenty of Mormon family (including my father), witnessing to and attending Mormon services for years. Mormonism is a mind crontol cult, and when I say "cult" I mean an aberrant group of Christian leaning which denies the diety of Christ.

[Susan Unger]

Wow...so Jim is the one not conservative enough? This is like the twilight zone....I think I need to lay down

And one day I'll learn not to eat my breakfast whilst reading naznet. I almost spewed milk all over the screen.

[Jon Bemis]

Hey Catholics actually believe that the eucharist becomes the literal body of Christ. They believe a lot of strange stuff about Mary, and apostolic succession, papal authority etc..... We don't exclude them, come on, don't tell me that they are ok and the Mormons are out because of creedal orthodoxy.

There's a big difference though Jim and it isn't about creeds. The do not worship the same God you and I do, instead they worship a god they believe has evolved into who he is now. In recent years they have begun using cover language in an attempt to be seen as more orthodox, but in fact they are not. For one thing, the LDS don't believe in Jesus as God, but that he is just one among many gods. There are literally hundreds of other significant examples those who are familiar with Mormonism could give where they simply don't align at all with Christianity.

What Benjamin wrote regarding their belief regarding the person of Christ is notable: He is the elder brother of Lucifer and every human and angel. He volunteered to be the savoir of the world so that everyone would get a resurrection and be able to progress to godhood. The implications of what this means undermine the basic tenets of Christian faith. While I believe in a big tent, there is no way I can see it being expanded to include their core beliefs and claim common ground as brothers and sisters in Christ with them.

[James Diggs]

Mormons are no more "Christian" than Muslims. Both acknowledge Jesus in some other way than God incarnate. Both acknowledge the Jewish and Christian scriptures, but believe them to be flawed and present their own sacred text as the only perfect text in which the Christians text must me read through.

I think there are both Muslims and Mormons though that can stumble into the Way of Jesus to some degree despite their theology and I am happy to walk with both them in this regard and even go out of my way to find strands of the Way of Jesus in their own religion. But neither religion in of themselves are Christian in terms of Christian orthodoxy in the least.

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

One of our challenges as God's people is to know what we believe and why, yet at the same time, allow God to work in ways that, to us, color outside the lines. We aren't saved by believing all the right things -- we're saved by grace. In the OT story of Jonah he knows for sure that the people of Nineveh are bad people, enemies of God's people. He doesn't want to go and warn them of judgment to come because he fears they will repent and escape that judgment. He knows God isn't like him - that God is compassionate and forgiving...and all Jonah wants is to see Nineveh destroyed.

We can arrive at an understanding of the basics of Christianity and pretty much agree that some things are outside of our faith. We can condemn some beliefs as out and out heretical - and do so for all the right reasons. One result is that we believe we are mandated to take the real gospel to those in that "Nineveh."

At the same time - and here's the challenge - we have to remember that believing all the right things is, for some reason, more important to us than it is to God. By his grace he colors outside the lines, accepting people who are on a journey and a long way from arriving at the "right" destination.

I'm glad for God's grace to me. Sometimes, I'm a bit uncomfortable with his grace to you.

[James Johnson]

So Benjamin, there will be no mormon's in heaven?

[James Diggs]

So Benjamin, there will be no mormon's in heaven?

I would expect someones answer to this to be consistent with how they answer the same question about Muslims, Buddhist or any other non Christian religion.

I tend not to like these kinds of questions in general, but personally I think Jesus was clear that the answer to such questions are often surprising.

[James Diggs]

One of our challenges as God's people is to know what we believe and why, yet at the same time, allow God to work in ways that, to us, color outside the lines. We aren't saved by believing all the right things -- we're saved by grace. In the OT story of Jonah he knows for sure that the people of Nineveh are bad people, enemies of God's people. He doesn't want to go and warn them of judgment to come because he fears they will repent and escape that judgment. He knows God isn't like him - that God is compassionate and forgiving...and all Jonah wants is to see Nineveh destroyed.

We can arrive at an understanding of the basics of Christianity and pretty much agree that some things are outside of our faith. We can condemn some beliefs as out and out heretical - and do so for all the right reasons. One result is that we believe we are mandated to take the real gospel to those in that "Nineveh."

At the same time - and here's the challenge - we have to remember that believing all the right things is, for some reason, more important to us than it is to God. By his grace he colors outside the lines, accepting people who are on a journey and a long way from arriving at the "right" destination.

I'm glad for God's grace to me. Sometimes, I'm a bit uncomfortable with his grace to you.

Great post Scott !

[Benjamin Hobbs]

So Benjamin, there will be no mormon's in heaven?

Strawman anyone?

Yes, there will be Mormons in heaven.

Just as I said before Mormonism isn't Christian, but Mormons can be Christians. I personally know of at least three people I could name who were accidentally Christians in the Mormon church.

[James Johnson]

I would expect someones answer to this to be consistent with how they answer the same question about Muslims, Buddhist or any other non Christian religion.

I tend not to like these kinds of questions in general, but personally I think Jesus was clear that the answer to such questions are often surprising.

I only ask them when someone is so adamant in a statement, as he also threw catholics into the mix as well. I realize it's a question that can't be answered by man, nor should it!

[James Diggs]

Strawman anyone?

I don't think this was intended as a straw man Benjamin even though I am not sure what James was getting at.

Yes, there will be Mormons in heaven.

Just as I said before Mormonism isn't Christian, but Mormons can be Christians

Yes, you did say this.

[James Diggs]

I only ask them when someone is so adamant in a statement, as he also threw catholics into the mix as well. I realize it's a question that can't be answered by man, nor should it!

Oh, ok. I don't think the question was out of bounds, I just think there are a lot of ways to approach such a question. I certainly don't think you were creating a "straw man" in asking this though.

I also didn't see what Benjamin was saying about catholics. I confess I have not followed the thread closely so I am sure I may be missing his point and emphasis too.

[Cam Pence]

If you don't mind me asking, Benjamin, how did you get into Mormon evangelism? Is it safe to assume that since your father is Mormon that perhaps that is the church in which you grew up? Just curious as I don't talk to many Christians who have as much experience as you in this particular area of evangelism.

[Benjamin Hobbs]

If you don't mind me asking, Benjamin, how did you get into Mormon evangelism? Is it safe to assume that since your father is Mormon that perhaps that is the church in which you grew up? Just curious as I don't talk to many Christians who have as much experience as you in this particular area of evangelism.

No, I don't mind at all.

I grew up Nazarene (thanks be to God for my mother and putting her foot down). After discovering my faith to be different to than my father's I wanted to know more. I studied everything I could get my hands on because I couldn't believe that the things I was reading were really believed by my father and his side of the family.

I got involved in talking with my relatives, my father (who really don't like talking about religion unless they can lead the conversation), online Mormons, emailing Mormons and talking with ex-Mormons.

As I mentioned before I was really effected by reading Romans 10:2-4 and it reminded me of the Mormons I knew. They work so hard to be perfect, trying to fulfill every requirement so that God would save them (they don't believe they know they can be saved) and that they one day would be exalted into godhood if they were good enough. The zeal is there, but it is so misguided. It hurts to know that they aren't even encouraged to study their own theology and history, doubt is evil as far as they are concerned.

Yes, there isn't an enormous number of Christians involved in evangelism to Mormons (there are quite a few of us, but since it's not a popular ministry there isn't much publicity). Mostly, I think because of comfortable apathy and ignorance on the subject (but that might just be the perspective from someone with a heavy burden for the Mormon people). I get attacked quite frequently by misinformed fellow Christians who don't know why I'd bother myself with "attacking other churches".

And as I tell Mormons, ask any question you want of me. I promise not to be offended.

EDIT: One of the greatest resources I have ever seen to demonstrate the differences between Mormons and Christians, and to break the heart of Christians for the Mormon people is a youtube video. Go to godneversinned.com and watch the video on the main page called "God never sinned. Do Mormons agree?. It's based on the well known and well taught teaching of "As man is God once was, as God is man may be".

WARNING. Watching the video may cause righteous anger and tears.

[Jim Chabot]

I only ask them when someone is so adamant in a statement, as he also threw catholics into the mix as well. I realize it's a question that can't be answered by man, nor should it!

Yeah, that one caught me as well. Most of this sounds like the old "Catholic bashing" of old. Lots of huffing and puffing with nothing really substantial.

I have no issue whatsoever in believing that Jewish, Muslim and Jehovah's Witnesses, most likely will have hell awaiting them. They all have more than sufficient knowledge of who Jesus is and they clearly reject Him. While I'm really sad that this fate awaits them, I'm not willing to bury my head in the sand and say that maybe their ok, because there isn't any part of me that can wrap my head around folks reaching heaven while clearly rejecting the Lord and Savior.

But when folks say things like this;

But what do we mean when we say He is the Savior of the world? The Redeemer? Each of these titles point to the truth that Jesus Christ is the only way by which we can return to live with our Heavenly Father. Jesus suffered and was crucified for the sins of the world, giving each of God’s children the gift of repentance and forgiveness. Only by His mercy and grace can anyone be saved. His subsequent resurrection prepared the way for every person to overcome physical death as well. These events are called the Atonement. In short, Jesus Christ saves us from sin and death. For that, he is very literally our Savior and Redeemer. In the future Jesus Christ will return to reign on earth in peace for a thousand years. Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and He will be our Lord forever.

God sent Jesus Christ to earth to give us a way to overcome our sins and imperfections. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Faith in Jesus Christ leads us to do good works. The Holy Bible teaches, "Faith without works is dead" ( James 2:20 ). This does not mean that we can be saved by good works, for no amount of good works can cleanse our souls of even a trace of sin without the power of Christ’s sacrifice. But those who have genuine faith in Christ will want to follow Him and do the kinds of works He did, such as helping the poor and needy, caring for the sick, visiting the lonely, and showing good will and love to all people.

A relationship with Jesus Christ is like any other—it can start to fade if we fall out of touch. It takes effort to exercise enough faith in Christ to repent, be baptized, and receive the Holy Ghost, but we have to strive to follow Christ to receive all the blessings God wants to give us.

The key is to think of the gospel of Jesus Christ as a pattern for living, rather than steps on a checklist. We can continue to develop our faith in Christ every day by reading His words in the scriptures and praying to our Heavenly Father. When we sin, we can repent every time with a humble heart because Jesus Christ's Atonement is never-ending. We can remember the promises and blessings of baptism by taking the sacrament every Sunday at church. We can continue to rely on the comfort and guidance of the Holy Ghost as he leads us back to God.

Articles of Faith:

13 Articles of Faith
We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.

We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.

We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.

We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.

We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.

We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul-We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

Are there some hokey things in these statements? Yes of course there are, and there is more if one reads through all of their stuff. My question isn't whether they have enough problems to miss the kingdom, but rather do they exhibit that which is required to attain it. I believe that Mormons demonstrate saving faith, and I have no issue calling them my brothers and sisters.

I'm not interested in all of the comments whereby it is said that they attest to all the right things yet they mean something else. Sounds like something that would come from Alex Jones, way too much conspiracy theory for me. No I don't believe that the book of Mormon was inspired and no I don't believe in the Mormon peculiar doctrines, but then again I'm not about to join the Catholics, Episcopalians of Methodists any time soon either, if I'm going to include them as my brothers and sisters and I do, then I'm including Mormons as well. I haven't seen anything here that would indicate that I shouldn't.