Another Pastoral Discussion (Branching From Another Thread)

[Pete Vecchi]

I asked a question of pastors about sermon preparation time in this thread:

http://www.naznet.com/community/show...on-Preparation

The pastor with whom I was speaking tends to view his time in terms of "hours worked" and his remuneration as being equivalent to so much money per hour. He is definitely bi-vocational (actually "tri-vocational"). He needs to keep track of his time closely, which probably informs his way of viewing the time he spends in ministry.

One of the things he's said is that he thinks it's OK to work so many hours in ministry for the church, and then have additional time that he considers to be "volunteer" time for the church. I find it difficult to quantify this, because the pastor's remuneration form the church is a monthly housing allowance, and the allowance is paid regardless of the "number of hours worked." In essence, it's like a salary (although a very minimal one).

In my way of thinking, any pastor who does anything for the church should consider it part of his/her pastoral call, and not consider it volunteer hours. Here's an example from my own life:

While I am called to be the Pastor of the congregation and have expectations as such as defined in the Manual, sometimes the scope of my duties goes beyond the Manual definitions. For instance, this week so far I've worked on keeping water from flooding the sub-basement due to a faulty water pump (and cleaned up the messes when the flooding couldn't be stopped in time), set up and taken down the tables in the area where we do our weekly bread distribution ministry, and met with a contractor about getting bats out of the building. Those are not areas specifically defined by the Manual as being pastoral responsibilities, but I view them as part of doing my job rather than as volunteering time.

So what do others think (and I don't want to limit these responses to the opinions of pastors)?

[Jon Bemis]

I generally see my self as part of our community, and so I consider some things I do (helping with tornado clean-up, helping build handicap ramps for elderly, church clean-up days) as volunteer. Granted, I am part of this community and therefore aware of these needs because I accepted the call to pastor this church, but I would do these things whether I was the pastor or a layperson.

[Ryan Scott]

I know one congregation where it is part of the job description for full-time staff members to have volunteer hours. They are expected to put in 45 hours per week as paid time and then an additional 8-12 as volunteers (this includes Sunday and mid-week activities). The rationale being that the laity are expected to give volunteer time, so the pastors should as well.

[Pete Vecchi]

I know one congregation where it is part of the job description for full-time staff members to have volunteer hours. They are expected to put in 45 hours per week as paid time and then an additional 8-12 as volunteers (this includes Sunday and mid-week activities). The rationale being that the laity are expected to give volunteer time, so the pastors should as well.

That seems like an awful lot of hours expected--between work and volunteering that's 53-57 hours a week.

Are those "volunteer hours" to be hours volunteering for the church, or somewhere else in the community?

I've heard some people say that in the way people should tithe on the amount of money they make, they should tithe on their time. I would view this as tithing time based on the number of hours worked per week at one's job. 4-5 hours of volunteer time would likely cover that, I would think.

[Pete Vecchi]

OK, let's put this into the "corporate" world. Say a person has a "white collar" job with a company. The person is salaried and is expected to work whatever it takes to get the job done. Let's just say the average is 45 hours per week. Should the company for which this person works "expect" that this employee do things on his or her own time such as paint the company's building, even though there will be no extra pay for the employee doing this?

Say a person has a "blue collar" job and gets paid by the hour, works 40 hours per week for a company, and gets "time and a half" for anything over 40 hours. Should the company for which this person works "expect" that this employee do things on his or her own time such as paint the company's building? Should the company for which this person works "expect" that this employee do things on his or her own time such as paint the company's building?

[Ryan Scott]

That seems like an awful lot of hours expected--between work and volunteering that's 53-57 hours a week.

Are those "volunteer hours" to be hours volunteering for the church, or somewhere else in the community?

I've hear some people say that in the way people should tithe on the amount of money they make, they should tithe on their time. I would view this as tithing time based on the number of hours worked per week at one's job. 4-5 hours of volunteer time would likely cover that, I would think.

No, those volunteer hours are part of the church - basically they church won't pay staff members for participating in events that everyone else comes to - three hours Sunday morning, two more Sunday night, two hours on Wednesdays and then other various activities.

[Pete Vecchi]

No, those volunteer hours are part of the church - basically they church won't pay staff members for participating in events that everyone else comes to - three hours Sunday morning, two more Sunday night, two hours on Wednesdays and then other various activities.

Thanks for the clarification. So basically, 7 hours on services/Sunday School/prayer meetings (assuming you're talking the traditional schedule).

Please understand that I'm not criticizing, but just kind of "thinking out loud in writing"...

Is it reasonable in this day and age--with schedules being what they are (especially for families with children in school) to put in almost as much as an entire work-day per week into church activities?

I'm not directing this question to Ryan specifically, but questioning the feasibility of the "traditional" schedule (perhaps Ryan's congregation does other than the "traditional" things during the Sunday morning/Sunday evening/Wednesday evening schedule--I simply do not know).

[Kyle Borger]

I don't get it. You are who you are. The church provides resources for you to be who you are with your gifts and talents in that community. Pay and such is irrelevant. If you are their shepherd you are their shepherd. What you do on or off the clock makes no difference. You are teaching your community to be disciples of Christ in everything you do. Your entire life is the clock. Now whenever and where ever possible your community of believers (church) should make every sacrifice possible to provide enough resources to allow you to be their teacher and shepherd in a sufficient manner. They must certainly obey God in terms of what they do with the resources God has provided them.

If God is the giver of all things and all resources we have are from God, then I really don't understand a concept of paid time and volunteer time. That is like saying this is my time but I am giving you my time. Every minute of your day is God's. What would God have you do with that minute? Attempting to pay a pastor by the hour I believe shows a lack of understanding of our relationship with God. The only thing that matters is if the church is obeying God by properly distributing the resources He has provided them in a manner that provides their teacher and leader the ability to do the work of God. Want to make sure the pastor is doing the work of God to make the distribution of those resources proper? Look at the fruit. A pastor is properly using the resources provided if disciples of Christ are being created and those disciples are making disciples of Christ.

Yes the secular world pays by the hour. But the world is not operating on God's standard. If it were then it would be different. I won't explain the difference because someone might try to turn it into a political debate.

[Mike Smiley]

As a layman I never looked on what I did around the church as volunteering. I have taught our adult Sunday school class for 20 years. That is a calling not a volunteering. I also serve as a trustee and have experience in nearly all areas of building maintenance. That is a privilige not volunteering. I am a servant to my church and my God, not a volunteer.

[Pete Vecchi]

I don't get it. You are who you are. The church provides resources for you to be who you are with your gifts and talents in that community. Pay and such is irrelevant. If you are their shepherd you are their shepherd. What you do on or off the clock makes no difference. You are teaching your community to be disciples of Christ in everything you do. Your entire life is the clock. Now whenever and where ever possible your community of believers (church) should make every sacrifice possible to provide enough resources to allow you to be their teacher and shepherd in a sufficient manner. They must certainly obey God in terms of what they do with the resources God has provided them.

If God is the giver of all things and all resources we have are from God, then I really don't understand a concept of paid time and volunteer time. That is like saying this is my time but I am giving you my time. Every minute of your day is God's. What would God have you do with that minute? Attempting to pay a pastor by the hour I believe shows a lack of understanding of our relationship with God. The only thing that matters is if the church is obeying God by properly distributing the resources He has provided them in a manner that provides their teacher and leader the ability to do the work of God. Want to make sure the pastor is doing the work of God to make the distribution of those resources proper? Look at the fruit. A pastor is properly using the resources provided if disciples of Christ are being created and those disciples are making disciples of Christ.

Yes the secular world pays by the hour. But the world is not operating on God's standard. If it were then it would be different. I won't explain the difference because someone might try to turn it into a political debate.

As a layman I never looked on what I did around the church as volunteering. I have taught our adult Sunday school class for 20 years. That is a calling not a volunteering. I also serve as a trustee and have experience in nearly all areas of building maintenance. That is a privilige not volunteering. I am a servant to my church and my God, not a volunteer.

These posts are what I was trying to get at. Again, this thread isn't about me, but rather another pastor whom I know. He is serving on staff (in a non-Nazarene denomination, and not as the senior pastor) "part-time" and is paid "per hour." He's supposed to turn his hours in and they are not to exceed a certain number of hours without prior approval. I can't grasp that concept in ministry, but he seems to think it is a good form of time management. I told him that then he should count every minute he spends at home or at church in preparation, every hour he spends in a youth "overnighter" (he is in charge of the youth at that church), etc...

[Susan Unger]

I don't get it.

I agree - I don't get it either.

[Kyle Borger]

These posts are what I was trying to get at. Again, this thread isn't about me, but rather another pastor whom I know. He is serving on staff (in a non-Nazarene denomination, and not as the senior pastor) "part-time" and is paid "per hour." He's supposed to turn his hours in and they are not to exceed a certain number of hours without prior approval. I can't grasp that concept in ministry, but he seems to think it is a good form of time management. I told him that then he should count every minute he spends at home or at church in preparation, every hour he spends in a youth "overnighter" (he is in charge of the youth at that church), etc...

I like what Mike had to say also. Our lay people should not be counting the hours they volunteer. That is like having a check of list that allows you to earn salvation. They should serve where their talents are best suited and to the degree that God is calling them. That may very well mean that they need a different job or have to change priorities at home. That could mean 1 hour a week or 30 hours a week. It might be in the church or it might be in another setting. The same that is true for pastors is true for everyone. Your time is not your own. Every minute should be spent glorifying God. You take time off to be with your family to strengthen those relationships and so that you can be healthy. That glorifies God. You go to a baseball game to support someone you know and to build relationships with others around you. That glorifies God. You go to work first and foremost to represent Christ. You tend to be a good employee because good work habits are the result of representing Jesus.

I suppose if you want to reduce a pastor down to physical tasks that are accomplished on a weekly basis you could justify hourly pay. That would be things like cleaning the bathrooms, mowing the yard, creating a bulletin, and other administrative tasks, but I find it incredibly difficult to measure time spent on sermon prep, hospital calls, hanging out in the park, and other activities that build relationships that are crucial to being a pastor.

I still say it reflects a group of people that are trying to impose secular ideas into the church setting. Pay the pastor a wage that supports the pastor as much as possible and the be clear on your expectations. Watch for the fruit of the ministry. If there is no fruit then you have a problem.

[Susan Unger]

I like what Mike had to say also. Our lay people should not be counting the hours they volunteer. That is like having a check of list that allows you to earn salvation. They should serve where their talents are best suited and to the degree that God is calling them. That may very well mean that they need a different job or have to change priorities at home. That could mean 1 hour a week or 30 hours a week. It might be in the church or it might be in another setting. The same that is true for pastors is true for everyone. Your time is not your own. Every minute should be spent glorifying God. You take time off to be with your family to strengthen those relationships and so that you can be healthy. That glorifies God. You go to a baseball game to support someone you know and to build relationships with others around you. That glorifies God. You go to work first and foremost to represent Christ. You tend to be a good employee because good work habits are the result of representing Jesus.

I suppose if you want to reduce a pastor down to physical tasks that are accomplished on a weekly basis you could justify hourly pay. That would be things like cleaning the bathrooms, mowing the yard, creating a bulletin, and other administrative tasks, but I find it incredibly difficult to measure time spent on sermon prep, hospital calls, hanging out in the park, and other activities that build relationships that are crucial to being a pastor.

I still say it reflects a group of people that are trying to impose secular ideas into the church setting. Pay the pastor a wage that supports the pastor as much as possible and the be clear on your expectations. Watch for the fruit of the ministry. If there is no fruit then you have a problem.

Dave McClung has said before that he views this as the difference between a white collar church and a blue collar one. The blue collar church has the mentality of blue collar workers who are paid by the hour so they view the pastor's job and pay as "by the hour". White collar churches have the mentality of white collar workers who are paid a salary and are just expected to get the job done. They view the pastor's job and salary as "get the job done" with the salary given.

[David Morris]

No, those volunteer hours are part of the church - basically they church won't pay staff members for participating in events that everyone else comes to - three hours Sunday morning, two more Sunday night, two hours on Wednesdays and then other various activities.

If only it were as easy as just showing up.

[Pete Vecchi]

I've been keeping an eye on the types of things that my associate pastor and I have been doing that tend to fall outside of the "regular weekly" things. He's in charge of the youth--really their "pastor". On Thursday one of the youth got asked to do a special activity in public (it was an honor for her to be asked), and when the youth mentioned it to the youth pastor, he and his wife came out to witness the event. Including travel, that was at least an extra 2 hours he hadn't planned on. If he were working a maximum "weekly" number of hours, this would have made him go over. But I can tell you that he and his wife's being there helped support and calm the nerves of this member of the congregation. Ministry? You'd better believe it!

And (please understand--not complaining, but explaining the realities) my having to head out to the hospital tonight after finding out a member of the congregation was taken to the ER? I spent about 3 hours there (thankfully, it ended up not being anything critical), but it certainly added hours to what I had expected to do this evening.

More and more I am convinced by things such as this that pastors--both head pastors and staff--should not be paid by the number of hours they work or for fulfilling specific tasks, but for whom they are and the way they represent Jesus and His church in all they do.

[Larry Parsons]

I asked a question of pastors about sermon preparation time in this thread:

http://www.naznet.com/community/show...on-Preparation

The pastor with whom I was speaking tends to view his time in terms of "hours worked" and his remuneration as being equivalent to so much money per hour. He is definitely bi-vocational (actually "tri-vocational"). He needs to keep track of his time closely, which probably informs his way of viewing the time he spends in ministry.

One of the things he's said is that he thinks it's OK to work so many hours in ministry for the church, and then have additional time that he considers to be "volunteer" time for the church. I find it difficult to quantify this, because the pastor's remuneration form the church is a monthly housing allowance, and the allowance is paid regardless of the "number of hours worked." In essence, it's like a salary (although a very minimal one).

In my way of thinking, any pastor who does anything for the church should consider it part of his/her pastoral call, and not consider it volunteer hours. Here's an example from my own life:

While I am called to be the Pastor of the congregation and have expectations as such as defined in the Manual, sometimes the scope of my duties goes beyond the Manual definitions. For instance, this week so far I've worked on keeping water from flooding the sub-basement due to a faulty water pump (and cleaned up the messes when the flooding couldn't be stopped in time), set up and taken down the tables in the area where we do our weekly bread distribution ministry, and met with a contractor about getting bats out of the building. Those are not areas specifically defined by the Manual as being pastoral responsibilities, but I view them as part of doing my job rather than as volunteering time.

So what do others think (and I don't want to limit these responses to the opinions of pastors)?

When I was pstoring i never consider it to be work I was have adventure something new was going on all the time. Years ago I took a course call Adventure in Attitude best course I ever took and one thing that course taught me in the pastoring alway have interesting actiivities if you are having interesting activities how can you be bore and call it work.
Thanks
Larry