This encapsulates the visioning discussions our church is moving through

[Roy Richardson]

http://bivocationalministry.blogspot...g-to-lose.html

Our church has had a rough go of it for the last 10 years or so. Declining attendance, declining revenues, near-closure, retirement and death of long-term pastor, move out of old bldg and unsuccessful attempts to sell old building.

Our visioning process is focusing on this kind of discussion right now, and Dennis' comments are great thoughts for us.

I just thought I would share

Roy

[Ian Gentles]

Excellent article, I couldent agree more. I have seen too many churches just holding on, and its tragic, its not what Christ intends for us. Fortunatly we now worship in a fairly large church, whats encouraging is, they see decline if they dont have new vision. Result is, we have lots of young folks excited to be in church.

[Gina Stevenson]

http://bivocationalministry.blogspot...g-to-lose.html

Our church has had a rough go of it for the last 10 years or so. Declining attendance, declining revenues, near-closure, retirement and death of long-term pastor, move out of old bldg and unsuccessful attempts to sell old building.

Our visioning process is focusing on this kind of discussion right now, and Dennis' comments are great thoughts for us.

I just thought I would share

Roy

Interesting. We see this is the one we saw when out & about about a month or so ago where we don't normally traverse. Heard about Woodland Drive-In Church years ago, but it met at the actual (movie) drive-in out by Woodland Mall. Did not realize it was still in existence, & had only moved to another location, once the drive-in had ceased operation (current location about 1.25-1.5 miles from where drive-in had been).

Sooo, if y'all (your family) check out this guy's place/church (next state over in IN now, right?) just to see how they"do church" there sometime, go ahead & let us know, since this is about 5.5 mi from here. Infrequent NazNetter Bob(Nan) Evans are in the area also. It's not far from "restaurant row"(28th St), so . . . .

[Roy Richardson]

Interesting. We see this is the one we saw when out & about about a month or so ago where we don't normally traverse. Heard about Woodland Drive-In Church years ago, but it met at the actual (movie) drive-in out by Woodland Mall. Did not realize it was still in existence, & had only moved to another location, once the drive-in had ceased operation (current location about 1.25-1.5 miles from where drive-in had been).

Sooo, if y'all (your family) check out this guy's place/church (next state over in IN now, right?) just to see how they"do church" there sometime, go ahead & let us know, since this is about 5.5 mi from here. Infrequent NazNetter Bob(Nan) Evans are in the area also. It's not far from "restaurant row"(28th St), so . . . .

Forget restaurant row, go to Yesterdog up in the Gaslight Village. That's what I'm talking about. When I was a student at Calvin College, I ate there when I could get a ride. Great hot dogs and ambience.

[Gina Stevenson]

Interesting area. Last I ate in Gaslight Village, it was a Middle Eastern restaurant (after checking out EGR library for what Wyoming did not have at the time ... been so long, cannot even recall now what that was! )

Forgot you went to Calvin & know the area.

[Paul DeBaufer]

What can happen when our churches refuse to meet the needs of a changing community, .

[Kyle Borger]

Reminded me of the difference between a Sanctified church and a regular church. Yes, churches are just like people. The church has to be totally commited to the same things a sanctified person is committed to. There must be a transformation. If the concerns focus inward there will be an eventual death.

Many churches wonder why people don't find their churches engaging. They are friendly they offer social activities and a nice building. Their preacher does a good enough job.

But when God is calling you Him He is calling you to a life commitment, a sacrrifice of personal wants and many churches just come across as self serving.

The church must be willing to sacrifice and lose people if necessary. The church must be willing to suffer.

My wife invited some coworkers to a church event. She hesitated to invite one woman because of her foul moth and lifestyle decisions. This woman wouldn't like the church afterall. My wife was questioned, by me, about her hesitancy. She invited her and this woman accepted. The real concern was that she would offend the church ladies. So what. Let's pray that they can extend some grace that this woman has not experienced. Real ministry is dirty. You get exposed to the world. Many in church believe that they are called to isolate themselves from the world. No matter how you look at it isolation ends up in death.

My position is that a sanctified church will grow because it behaves like a sanctified person. Love God with everything, love people, make disciples, and be willing to sacrifice everything for the chance to reach just one perso.

[Ian Gentles]

Reminded me of the difference between a Sanctified church and a regular church. Yes, churches are just like people. The church has to be totally commited to the same things a sanctified person is committed to. There must be a transformation. If the concerns focus inward there will be an eventual death.

Many churches wonder why people don't find their churches engaging. They are friendly they offer social activities and a nice building. Their preacher does a good enough job.

But when God is calling you Him He is calling you to a life commitment, a sacrrifice of personal wants and many churches just come across as self serving.

The church must be willing to sacrifice and lose people if necessary. The church must be willing to suffer.

My wife invited some coworkers to a church event. She hesitated to invite one woman because of her foul moth and lifestyle decisions. This woman wouldn't like the church afterall. My wife was questioned, by me, about her hesitancy. She invited her and this woman accepted. The real concern was that she would offend the church ladies. So what. Let's pray that they can extend some grace that this woman has not experienced. Real ministry is dirty. You get exposed to the world. Many in church believe that they are called to isolate themselves from the world. No matter how you look at it isolation ends up in death.

My position is that a sanctified church will grow because it behaves like a sanctified person. Love God with everything, love people, make disciples, and be willing to sacrifice everything for the chance to reach just one perso.

I totaly, totaly, agree.

[Roy Richardson]

What can happen when our churches refuse to meet the needs of a changing community, .

I showed this video as part of my sermon this morning. Sermon was on ministry as part of a series on what a great church looks like. This was a negative example

[Sarah Smith]

Kyle--you bring up some good points.

Many years ago we lived in a part of NM where we had to drive quite a ways to get to church. Church A was northeast of us quite a ways, Church B was northwest of us quite a ways.

Both decided reaching the lost was number one priority. Church A basically told the people to expect raunchy behavior and NOT TO EXPECT PEOPLE TO CHANGE. The church would have to change to reach the people. They got and still have high numbers, but whew--wouldn't want to attend there now! Not only have the newbies not shown any change "since Jesus came into their heart" but now the folks that stirred that mess up live like the devil also.

Church B told their people that bringing in lots of lost was going to mean having to do some pretty specific teaching about how Christians should talk, act, dress, ahem-mate-, etc. Not to get hurt feelings if someone stepped on their own toes, and not to either be repulsed by worldly people or just accept gross sin either. It's still tiny, but still reaching people in a way that results in real life change. Seems as some oldies die off some newbies come in, but you see such a major sea change in their lives you don't question if they are saved or not.

Now, my human nature says wouldn't it be wonderful to have the big numbers of Church A but the changed lives of Church B?

Just haven't figured out how to get there yet.

[Roy Richardson]

Kyle--you bring up some good points.

Many years ago we lived in a part of NM where we had to drive quite a ways to get to church. Church A was northeast of us quite a ways, Church B was northwest of us quite a ways.

Both decided reaching the lost was number one priority. Church A basically told the people to expect raunchy behavior and NOT TO EXPECT PEOPLE TO CHANGE. The church would have to change to reach the people. They got and still have high numbers, but whew--wouldn't want to attend there now! Not only have the newbies not shown any change "since Jesus came into their heart" but now the folks that stirred that mess up live like the devil also.

Church B told their people that bringing in lots of lost was going to mean having to do some pretty specific teaching about how Christians should talk, act, dress, ahem-mate-, etc. Not to get hurt feelings if someone stepped on their own toes, and not to either be repulsed by worldly people or just accept gross sin either. It's still tiny, but still reaching people in a way that results in real life change. Seems as some oldies die off some newbies come in, but you see such a major sea change in their lives you don't question if they are saved or not.

Now, my human nature says wouldn't it be wonderful to have the big numbers of Church A but the changed lives of Church B?

Just haven't figured out how to get there yet.

That is the crux of the issue.n Church A was describing "Cheap Grace" in what it was expecting. But Church B might have been imposing an unnecessary hurdle for people if it limited them that much. We should be able to accept people as they are and move them, with the HS guidance, toward a Romans 12 experience of transformation. The hard part for us is to realize what our role is in that process and what the role of the HS is. When we try to do the role of the HS, we make a mess. When we don't do our role, we make a mess.

Tough stuff this discipleship.