Wrong God or Wrong About God

[Wilson Deaton]

We Christians do not define/describe God the same way the Mormons do. The Christian God is Triune, only the Son is flesh and blood (since the incarnation) , etc. The Mormon God is defined/described differently.

(For the sake of this discussion, the assumption is that the Christian defined/described God is the one true God.)

So are the Mormons wrong about God OR are they worshiping the wrong God?

Does God view them as confused followers or as idolators?

When a Mormon prays does God ignore them because they are "talking to someone else" or, does God think, "Bless their hearts, they are wrong about me but I forgive them and will hear and answer their prayer anyway?"

When proseletyzing, are Mormons simply misrepresenting God or are they leading people away from the one true God and toward a false god?

Wilson

[Ryan Scott]

I have heard one Mormon leader explain, "We're Christians, just not post-third century Christians," presumably because of issues with the Trinity.

Clearly the LDS Church is not orthodox Christian in any sense of the word, but at some point they seem to have moved beyond sect or cult status.

I went to high school in Colorado, a decently high Mormon population. I spent a lot of time reading and studying about Mormonism, its history and beliefs. The problem is, I just haven't met a single Mormon who fits any of the things I learned.

Much like I do with anyone, I prefer to get to know individuals and possibly have theological discussions to discover where we differ and agree.

[James Diggs]

Does God view them as confused followers or as idolators?

I don't know. I imagine that if God views them as a "confused follower" than they would have to be really seeking God and embracing the substance of who God really is wherever it is revealed to them as God promises if we seek we will find.

On the other hand, I think there will be plenty who are nothing more than "idolators", but don't worry they will have some company of some Christians too. Not because these "Christians" believed the wrong facts about God, but because to some God is contained by those facts and God is domesticated to the point that they did not actually allow God to gain dominion of their lives as God.

Still, I think that the theology of the Mormon faith is about domesticating God, it seems to be a theology by which its "truths" are meant to grab hold of life in a particular way very different from the Way of the cross by which God was revealed through Jesus Christ. The Mormon faith seems to provide handles for control of life and to be successful, and to gain access to the next life- its a race to the top. I don't think that's the gospel, but I can't condemn them without confessing that I think some Christians sadly approach our faith in that way too.

[Larry Parsons]

We Christians do not define/describe God the same way the Mormons do. The Christian God is Triune, only the Son is flesh and blood (since the incarnation) , etc. The Mormon God is defined/described differently.

(For the sake of this discussion, the assumption is that the Christian defined/described God is the one true God.)

So are the Mormons wrong about God OR are they worshiping the wrong God?

Does God view them as confused followers or as idolators?

When a Mormon prays does God ignore them because they are "talking to someone else" or, does God think, "Bless their hearts, they are wrong about me but I forgive them and will hear and answer their prayer anyway?"

When proseletyzing, are Mormons simply misrepresenting God or are they leading people away from the one true God and toward a false god?

Wilson

You may even want to say the Watch Tower people are confuse Christians also. They believe that Jesus is God son and they believe that Jesus die for our sins on a post. (Not on a cross)They just don't believe that Jesus is God. Most of JW have meet seem to be nice people even those won't come to visit with me.Ha
Thanks
Larry

[Dale Cozby]

A few years ago I had two young men come to my door and I invited them to discuss thier faith and mine. Over the next three weeks we discussed thier beliefs. I discussed what they believed about Jesus Christ. Unless they are defining terms way different than I do, and we discussed this possibility, they and I believed the same thing about Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. They considered themselves my brothers in the faith by the end of our discussions, even if we differed on our interpretations and what is canon scripture. Having studied Mormonism in the past I was somewhat pleased by thier responses and thier apparent faith in Christ. They have some strange eschatology no doubt and in many ways this is why people hate them. But I would say they are Christian plus a bunch of non-essential stuff, not Christian minus essential stuff.

The JW's are so far out they deny Christ and His church. Having also spoken with them in a similar way and because of thier rredefined terms deny Christ Jesus as Lord. They define EVERYTHING differently so we have no common ground to discuss. They seem much more in danger of judgment and denial of the essentials of saving faith. But i cannot judge theier relationship with teh only Lord and savior, Jesus.

I have also spoken to a muslim who was confused about the nature of Christ and wht he did among us. He understood we call him the son of God, but had a hard time when I called HIm God. Sharing the deity of Jesus with Him was a new thing for Him. It opened His mind to a new view of Jesus he had never heard before. Jesus is God and is One with the Father and Spirit. I shared with him that if Allah is the same as the Christian God then he is in fact was praying to/through and because of Jesus Christ because to christians Father/Son and Holy Spirit are the One true God, Triune in presence but one. Jesus Immanuel, God with us.

[Larry Parsons]

The JW's do not deny Christ. They believe he is God son but a lesser god under the almight God. They believe that Jesus die for our sins, They believe that Christ one only sacrifice was suffecient. They believe the wicked be eternally destroyed (Lost). They believe we are living in the last days (So do a lot of Chrisians) We could start a discussion Just don't let them know that you are a pastor they will run from you and never return. Both JW'S and mormon believe that Christianity became corrupt after the Apostles die and both believe they are the true Christians church. I once pastor a church where JW'S family started attending and under our ministries they became member of the CotN and later Nazarene evangelist. Last time I saw Jerry Porter I ask about them he told me they were doing great work. I once had evengelist who would specialize in deal with JW's while he was with us that week we visit lot of JW's Believe it or not the JW's have a lot in common with the dispensation when it to the second coming.
Thanks
Larry

[Randy Wise]

The JW's do not deny Christ. They believe he is God son and a lesser god under the almight God.
Thanks
Larry

Here's where I would differ. The fullness in the Son is the Father, the One true God. That makes Jesus all that the Father is not a lessor God as they are One in that context. But that fullness is the Fathers being. So Jesus remains under the authority of His God and Father so in that context the Father is greater. The Father is literally the Father of all spirits including the firstborn. Also to me Jesus is unique in that God will not give His fullness to another. One God, One Lord, One Spirit. (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) The Holy Spirit is the Fathers (Spirit of the Sovereign Lord) as there can be no other Spirit that is God as the Father is the First and the Last. Also I don't know how one would claim that the Father wasn't always "Good" and wasn't always "The One true God" from the bible.



R.

[Randy Wise]

We Christians do not define/describe God the same way the Mormons do. The Christian God is Triune, only the Son is flesh and blood (since the incarnation) , etc. The Mormon God is defined/described differently.


Wilson

While I do read and believe in a bodily resurrection of Jesus I do not consider that the risen body is human flesh and blood. There was importance in Jesus's resurrection to show Him "Jesus of Nazareth" as the one who had risen. Holes in the wrist and side. No such importance is needed in our resurrection and while I/we don't understand what we will be we were given we will be like Him. (Jesus) A body not of the dust of the earth but of the Spirit.

Also why can't the Father have that same type of body shape given to man as we do read of a figure sitting on the throne? I believe God's form has hands, feet, head, hair etc though perhaps His being may mask some of that shape. So mans shape hands, feet, eyes, etc mirror God's in "shape or form" not makeup. The Jesus in the book of Rev to me isn't flesh and blood. I don't think you stated that though.

Ezekiel 1:26
Above the expanse over their heads was what looked like a throne of sapphire,[a] and high above on the throne was a figure like that of a man.

Daniel 7:9

9 “As I looked,

“thrones were set in place,
and the Ancient of Days took his seat.
His clothing was as white as snow;
the hair of his head was white like wool.
His throne was flaming with fire,
and its wheels were all ablaze.
Randy

[Craig Laughlin]

We Christians do not define/describe God the same way the Mormons do. The Christian God is Triune, only the Son is flesh and blood (since the incarnation) , etc. The Mormon God is defined/described differently.

(For the sake of this discussion, the assumption is that the Christian defined/described God is the one true God.)

So are the Mormons wrong about God OR are they worshiping the wrong God?

Does God view them as confused followers or as idolators?

When a Mormon prays does God ignore them because they are "talking to someone else" or, does God think, "Bless their hearts, they are wrong about me but I forgive them and will hear and answer their prayer anyway?"

When proseletyzing, are Mormons simply misrepresenting God or are they leading people away from the one true God and toward a false god?

Wilson

I think the difficulty is that we judge theology and God judges the heart. Clearly, theologically, they are worshiping a different God. (If you change the definition it is a different person or thing. Which is what the phrase "by definition" means)

The good news is that there is not a theology test when we die. I think it entirely possible for someone to be profoundly wrong about their theology and yet have a true and transformational relationship with Jesus. I lived in Idaho for 10 years and it is heavily Mormon. I met many practicing Mormons whose lives gave witness to the fruit of relationship with Christ. I also met a bunch that I'm sure were as embarrassing to Mormons as some "Christians" are to us.

I also think that ultimately we are all "confused followers" to a greater or lesser extent. I am confident that our way of thinking is a much, much more accurate reflection of God. That being said there were followers of Jesus before we worked all this trinitarian stuff out.

The hard question for us is, given that in many ways they live more Christ like than us. (care for family, care for the least, last and lost) What if living like Jesus matters more than thinking like Jesus?

[Wes Smith]

The "Apostle's Creed" comes to mind.

Judgement is a very difficult thing and I'm very glad it is God's territory.

I doubt anyone in any other faith community flat out declares, "I know we are wrong and historic, orthodox Christianity is right, but I choose to reject truth for my more convenient belief system." If that happens it is very rare.

Over the years it has worked for me to build a sort of heirarchy of acceptable truth systems. If Christianity is not the predominent religion, what is next best? Though not in this exact category, I am VERY proud of the Catholics. Cardinal Dolan's prayers at the end of both conventions deepened my respect for our RC brothers and sisters who unflinchingly name Christ as true leader and worthy of our devotion. Mormans are near the top of my religious heirarchy. In MANY ways their work ethic and expectations of humanity reflect a philosophy that works. Near the bottom of my heirarchy are the pansies, the ones who want to place the expectation bar for humanity very low and then redistribute the world's assets accross the board.

So, my response is similar to Craig's. My neighbor in WA State was a great example of Mormon. He was very devout. Very successful. Spent a year in Samoa after his retirement to donate time and talents to the Samoan people. He was enthusiastic about proclaiming his expectation of a prosperous afterlife that would include many wives and the capacity to rule an entire world.

My main rub with Mormonism is their history. A Mormon came to my office in Anchorage and declared that the Mormons had settled and evangelized the Americas way before Columbus. That was new to me and it quickly occurred to me that National Geographic would have record of such discoveries from antiquity. The Mormon in my office agreed and said that he would convert to Christianity if NG did not verify his claims. I still have the copy of the letter. NG responded, "None of the cities have been found. No coins or other relics have been found to verify Mormon claims." When the man came to my office to read the letter, he responded, "Well, they do not have the latest information." Hey, was hoping to put another notch in my 4 Spiritual Laws booklet! Not!

Friend,

Wes

[Billy Cox]

So are the Mormons wrong about God OR are they worshiping the wrong God?

Does God view them as confused followers or as idolators?

When a Mormon prays does God ignore them because they are "talking to someone else" or, does God think, "Bless their hearts, they are wrong about me but I forgive them and will hear and answer their prayer anyway?"

When proseletyzing, are Mormons simply misrepresenting God or are they leading people away from the one true God and toward a false god?

I am convinced that faith is the key. By faith, someone not raised in a Christian context may come to different conclusions/doctrines from historical Christianity. Does that invalidate their faith?

I also look for the fruit of the Spirit; evidence of transforming grace. I find it difficult to imagine that a person exhibiting those evidences will be condemned simply because they are not trinitarian in their doctrine. Or do we really think that a person who comes to faith outside of an organized religious system will spontaneously affirm the trinity?

[Larry Parsons]

Here's where I would differ. The fullness in the Son is the Father, the One true God. That makes Jesus all that the Father is not a lessor God as they are One in that context. But that fullness is the Fathers being. So Jesus remains under the authority of His God and Father so in that context the Father is greater. The Father is literally the Father of all spirits including the firstborn. Also to me Jesus is unique in that God will not give His fullness to another. One God, One Lord, One Spirit. (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) The Holy Spirit is the Fathers (Spirit of the Sovereign Lord) as there can be no other Spirit that is God as the Father is the First and the Last. Also I don't know how one would claim that the Father wasn't always "Good" and wasn't always "The One true God" from the bible.



R.

Randy, I was responding to Dale in my post where he mention the JW's are so far out of touch that deny Christ which they don't they just don't believe in the same Christ we believe. He also mention we have nothing in common with the JW'S so we have no ground for discussion and that not true because in my post I lisit few things that we Christians have in common with them.
Thanks
Larry

[Greg Farra]

[QUOTE=Billy Cox;159951]I am convinced that faith is the key. By faith, someone not raised in a Christian context may come to different conclusions/doctrines from historical Christianity. Does that invalidate their faith?

I also look for the fruit of the Spirit; evidence of transforming grace. I find it difficult to imagine that a person exhibiting those evidences will be condemned simply because they are not trinitarian in their doctrine. Or do we really think that a person who comes to faith outside of an organized religious system will spontaneously affirm the trinity? [/QUOT

The only one that can invalidate our faith is God, as only he knows our hearts. We can only do our best as faith communities, drawing on those who have gone before us. That is why I believe the Creeds are important. They are not scripture, but statements of faith of who we believe in as God.

[Greg Farra]

And of course, we can only look at the outside, only God can look on the heart.

[Dale Cozby]

Randy, I was responding to Dale in my post where he mention the JW's are so far out of touch that deny Christ which they don't they just don't believe in the same Christ we believe. He also mention we have nothing in common with the JW'S so we have no ground for discussion and that not true because in my post I lisit few things that we Christians have in common with them.
Thanks
Larry

I may have made myself unclear Larry. I said they define everything differently than we do, so we have no common understanding of terms. Thus no common ground and in the sense we can talk past each other while at the same time agreeing with each other. Perhaps it is just the ones I have engaged but they seem to be further out in thier views than most.

[Wes Smith]

This thread is more interesting/important than it seems on the surface.

"If" it (orthodoxy?) is an issue of someone's definition of faith or integration of fruit of the Spirit or heart, we are obligated, imho, to re-define salvation. And, more importantly (imho), we are obligated to re-define what happened at the cross and empty tomb. Did Christ truly die for all and all the sins of mankind and did the cross/empty tomb totally reverse the curse (whether we like it or not)?

I, personally, see no other outcome to such a line of thought than pure and simple universalism. For many years I have advocated that the essense of Christianity is not traditional salvation. Salvation is God's generous and free demonstration of superiority over sin/death/Satan. If His salvation affects fewer people than the "fall (all)," it is inferior and sin/death/Satan is, thus, superior. Since I am a Christian, I thoroughly, utterly and completely believe in the superiority of the Holy Trinity.

The problem/rub, then, becomes, "What in the world do we do with our historic concept of salvation?" To what are we to be up? Do we make it cultural...the stepchild of any and every weird and not-so-weird Christian people group? Do we just kick back and allow history to take its course? No! May it not be so. The bottom line is that we are freed from the necessity of redeeming the world. That has already been done, fully accomplished through the cross and empty tomb. It is fully reasonable to admire and enjoy the "already/not yet-ness," unstoppable process of what Christ actually did in the greatest event of Earth and time. That Christ is fully worship-able and easy to follow! The battle is won. He won it. Thoroughly. Decisively. No competition. Not even in the same league.

Now what?

I'm only messing with what you all have already suggested...that people can be "righteous pagans (!)" in the contemporary world.

My further suggestion is that "conversion" should revolve around bringing people to...faith in Christ and the exciting discovery of faith through Christ. This faith makes all things possible and ushers in a new age/era/dispensation/kingdom where God's will is done on earth as it is done in heaven.

I will humbly and quickly confess that this is complicated. Change is difficult on any and every level, but, I submit, more difficult in the Church than at any and every other level! My conviction at this point in my life is that conversion to FAITH in Christ and participation in the Kingdom of God is infinitely more exciting and fulfilling and productive than anything ever experienced by most (nearly all) traditional and most historic Christianity. A simple (maybe simplistic) way to say this is that traditional/historic Christianity gives us something to die for. Re-defined salvation and Christian purpose gives us something to strategically and enthusiastically LIVE for!

The current shift away from Christianity in North America clearly revolves around its inability to take people beyond traditionalism and denominationalism. Nothing is less motivating and inspiring than a causeless creed. A creed that includes both personal and worldwide redemption (of which we, devout followers of Christ, are partners...in reconciliatioon of/to) and participation in the very life of Christ (...what I've [Jesus] been doing, you will do and even greater things!) is both necessary and possible! And, by the way, I see great validity for a denomination such as the Church of the Nazarene to lead a worldwide turnaround. The issue is to subscribe to a much bigger/better cause than turf, market share, doctrinal superiority, etc. (Converting people to faith has literal explosive potential. Converting people to historic orthodoxy has gotten us exactly to where we are.)

Friend,

Wes

[Wilson Deaton]

Patting myself on the back for practicing restraint:

A friend of mine posted a Facebook pic expressing that we need a new president with some certain characteristic. A friend of this friend immediately "liked" it and commented, "Yes, and also one who believes in THE LORD God and not some other."

I could tell by the context that this was inferring that Obama is Muslim and believes in Allah. However, it wasn't explicit. Here's where the self-restraint comes in. I was sorely tempted to respond as if I thought she was making inference to Romney's Mormonism. But I didn't. I confess that I went so far as to type, "Yes, we certainly don't need someone who believes in the Mormon god." Yep, I typed it, but I didn't post it! Restraint!!!


Wilson

[John Kennedy]

Wilson -

I'd like to present you with the following:

A gift certificate to the chiropractor of your choice - after that much self-backpatting, you're probably gonna' need an adjustment.

A notification that you are one of the semi-finalists for this year's "I know I'm humbler than you" sweepstakes.

Bless yore heart, brother!

I think only time I came remotely close to the level of restraint you so humbly boast of was years ago when I was a substitute teacher in a junior high shop class. There were a couple of 'tiny' 7th grade girls who decided it would be fun to hide in a 'shop locker'.

Several students came to me and told me where they were (keeping quiet about something is an incredibly exotic concept to 7th graders). Since the door was vented and it was nearly time to dismiss for lunch, I was sorely tempted to slap a padlock on the locker and walk away for a few minutes.

But I heeded the voice of my better nature, deciding the fun wouldn't be worth the crap I'd go through for it, and simply contented myself with 'accidentally' banging the locker door and watching them come tearing out.

You are to be commended for your restraint.

[Steven Burton]

Well you could say we are all wrong about God in the first place since once we try to describe God we are wrong. You can thank a very influential Jew for that one. Maimonides