Understanding the worldview of the twenty-something

[Hans Deventer]

Thank you Hans, helpful as always! Does your answer also apply for homosexuality?

James, I'm happy to answer but can you be a little more specific? What part of my answer were you referring to?

[Greg Crofford]

We are of one mind. Thanks, Hans.

[Marsha Lynn]

My personal take on the worldview of 20somethings includes:

Public schooling actively works to indoctrinate to tolerate: homosexual behavior, fornication, adultery, and rebellion. Too much time working in the public schools to deny it.

So if our public educators are to blame for the radical tolerance of today's young people, who is to blame for the commitment of our public educators to teaching tolerance? And who taught it to those who are influencing the educators? What is the ultimate source of this radical love and acceptance being shown by young people toward those who are outcasts in society? Is it the same source that also leads to push-back against those who are confident they are "in" with God and qualified to categorize people as either saints ("in") or sinners ("out")?

Personally, I have been far more exposed to teaching to help me distinguish sheep from goats and convert the goats into sheep than teaching that goats are valuable in their own right. But somewhere along the line I encountered crying goats who couldn't manage to fit into the sheep outfits and my compassion was stirred. Perhaps this was simply a trick of the indoctrinators to make me see value in creatures who had been rejected by God, but the crazy thing is many of those "goats," when not trying to fit into sheep outfits, were out feeding the hungry and giving water to the thirsty and clothes to those who had none and visiting the sick and those in prison while the "sheep" were unaware of the needs right outside their sheepfold. Then I became greatly confused and began to think maybe my teachers were also confused. Why is it again that goats are bad and need to be converted into sheep?

Marsha

[Billy Cox]

I think, when it comes to the Church and Christian young people - it's about a change in the process.

It used to be Believe, Behave, Belong. You believe the right thing, which changes your behavior, and then you belong to the community of faith.

This generation has changed that around. Now it's more important to belong. People are not going to investigate our beliefs or their own until they feel connected and supported and love for who they are.

While I agree that 'Believe, Behave, Belong' is a conventional model of assimilation, I question whether this generation has changed it, or whether this generation itself (and likely the previous) has changed, relative to baby boomers or builders.

I agree that some congregations have intuitively shifted 'belong' to step one, which raises two significant issues.

1. If belonging is the enticement, then there is no guarantee that people will be interested in believing or behaving. This approach leads to institutional angst, and there is ample critique and/or skewering in the blogosphere and from traditionalist pulpits.

2. The fruit of 'belong, believe, behave' assimilation is far more process-oriented, and it may have difficulty drawing support from those whose conversion was instantaneous and conforming/belonging was a hard-fought process.

The KC district assembly in recent years has sponsored a big youth-event in connection with the World Mission night of DA. The theory is that the promise of a huge event would bring in a bunch of teens to attend the service and have the opportunity to sense a call to foreign missions. What if the youth event preceded the service, instead of being the reward for attending? How many would sit through the service? Far fewer, I suspect.

Just playing institution's advocate... I agree that making 'belong' the entry point requires considerable retooling and a fair amount of expectation management. I just don't see many institutions led by people assimilated in one way wanting to bankroll a model in which people are assimilated in a different way.

Maybe it would then call for starting a new congregation, but would have to be a lean model not needing institutional money, and not needing to show lots of conversion growth from the get-go. I haven't seen this firsthand, but I think it could be done.

[John Kennedy]

As a public educator for 36 years and as a Christian, I find it difficult to fully state how much I take exception to your statements about public education.

(This is addressed to John Comstock)

[Ryan Scott]

Just playing institution's advocate... I agree that making 'belong' the entry point requires considerable retooling and a fair amount of expectation management. I just don't see many institutions led by people assimilated in one way wanting to bankroll a model in which people are assimilated in a different way.

Maybe it would then call for starting a new congregation, but would have to be a lean model not needing institutional money, and not needing to show lots of conversion growth from the get-go. I haven't seen this firsthand, but I think it could be done.

Isn't that what's happening?

[Jim Franklin]

Marsha asks, who is to blame for teaching the teachers all of this tolerance ciriculum. My answer is leftist liberal college professors who in some cases have announced on the first day of class that if I can't break down those of you with faith I have failed. Also the entertainment industry has been too great of a negative influence on the moral tone of our society. It is not hard to recognize that those in the entertainment industry are polictically correct on immorality than society in general. Actually many of our major businesses, chain stores, franchise markets and school districts have workshops on tolerance.

[Billy Cox]

Isn't that what's happening?

It depends on who you ask and what that 'what' is.

The denomination has been quite intentional about starting new congregations. I can tell you from firsthand experience that the denomination places profound pressure on these new congregations to become bona fide, budget-paying, respectable organizations with a professional pastor and some real estate to call its own.

Expectations like that will domesticate an upstart congregation in a hurry.

No, if it's happening, and I'm sure it is, it doesn't show up as a church-number at the GSEC's office.

[Benjamin Hobbs]

I think we can maintain that Jesus wasn't "pointing out her sin" only so long as we're willing to say "she already knew her sin, Jesus was simply stating it."





Is it not also possible to instruct, as so many others in Scripture do?

Wow, I didn't see us agreeing anytime soon. Thank you for eloquently clarifying what I had been trying to say.

EDIT: And it seems that continuing on with Paul in my absence, I would've said the same things you have.

[Marsha Lynn]

Marsha asks, who is to blame for teaching the teachers all of this tolerance ciriculum. My answer is leftist liberal college professors who in some cases have announced on the first day of class that if I can't break down those of you with faith I have failed. Also the entertainment industry has been too great of a negative influence on the moral tone of our society. It is not hard to recognize that those in the entertainment industry are polictically correct on immorality than society in general. Actually many of our major businesses, chain stores, franchise markets and school districts have workshops on tolerance.

So how can we as Christians counter this subversive influence? Do we need workshops on intolerance for educators and students? Can we simply live an intolerant lifestyle and hope they notice and are influenced for the good by it or do we need to be more intentional in our training? If the train has already left the station how will we respond to this generation of young people who have been taught to value people regardless of their race, religion, skin color, creed, nationality, and sexual orientation?

[Ryan Scott]

It depends on who you ask and what that 'what' is.

The denomination has been quite intentional about starting new congregations. I can tell you from firsthand experience that the denomination places profound pressure on these new congregations to become bona fide, budget-paying, respectable organizations with a professional pastor and some real estate to call its own.

Expectations like that will domesticate an upstart congregation in a hurry.

That's not the case everywhere. I can say that's not how things work here. Of course, the District's investment in new ministries is a full-time staff person in the district office who resources and mentors the leaders - and does not come in the form of finances. That helps a lot with expectations.

But it's really happening on its own - sometimes its within a denomination structure, most of the time it's not. I was simply stating that we're seeing a big shift to the type of thing you described in your last paragraph. It's happening.

[Paul DeBaufer]

So how can we as Christians counter this subversive influence? Do we need workshops on intolerance for educators and students? Can we simply live an intolerant lifestyle and hope they notice and are influenced for the good by it or do we need to be more intentional in our training? If the train has already left the station how will we respond to this generation of young people who have been taught to value people regardless of their race, religion, skin color, creed, nationality, and sexual orientation?

Very well stated, Thank you.

[Benjamin Burch]

Marsha asks, who is to blame for teaching the teachers all of this tolerance ciriculum. My answer is leftist liberal college professors who in some cases have announced on the first day of class that if I can't break down those of you with faith I have failed. Also the entertainment industry has been too great of a negative influence on the moral tone of our society. It is not hard to recognize that those in the entertainment industry are polictically correct on immorality than society in general. Actually many of our major businesses, chain stores, franchise markets and school districts have workshops on tolerance.

You think college professors are the most powerful people in the world?

[Benjamin Burch]

Wow, I didn't see us agreeing anytime soon. Thank you for eloquently clarifying what I had been trying to say.

EDIT: And it seems that continuing on with Paul in my absence, I would've said the same things you have.

I'm really very, very traditional theologically.

[Paul DeBaufer]

I'm really very, very traditional theologically.

Yes, yes you are and I, for one, appreciate it. Might not always agree that tradition is right, but still appreciate the perspective.

[Mike Schutz]

I am particularly close to two highly intelligent, theologically reflective, young people in the age group we are discussing.

Person #1 is very connected with the church. However, this person has no concern for denominational loyalty. This person will go to any church where the Gospel is proclaimed and the community is attempting to live out the teachings of Jesus. Some of this person's closest friends are gay, and are viewed as people on a journey, trying to work on "who they are" in the same way this person is. This person is passionate about making a difference in the world for Christ - to show God's love and grace to people - and is currently spending a year doing just that, on the other side of the world.

Person #2 is passionate about following Jesus, but alienated from the church due to what this person sees as hypocrisy, and the deadening function of all institutions. THis person is willing to take strong, passionate stands on various social issues, and has grown frustrated by the church's unwillingness to take stands on the most important issues, while taking stands on issues that this person believes separate people from the God of love and grace.

In both cases, I do not see "radical tolerance." What I see is a desire to draw the lines of what truly matters in very different places than where the church has drawn them. They do not see gays as being the enemy - they see Christians who point at gays while not living up to their own marital vows as the problem. They see "God and Country" as the problem. They see hypocrisy and the church's love affair with economic and political policies that keep the poor poor and make the rich into examples of God's blessing as the problem. This is not radical tolerance at all. This is an attempt to take seriously the teachings of Jesus and to "do justly, love mercy, and walk humbly with their God."

[Billy Cox]

I'm really very, very traditional theologically.

...depending on whose tradition we are talking about, and how far back in history one draws their tradition.

Within a Nazarene context, I have listened to many sermons and read many articles referring to tradition, and the speaker or writer was almost never referring to a belief, doctrine, or practice that existed prior to the 19th century. If we have a tradition of rejecting just about anything that 'sounds too Roman Catholic', how much would we affirm a tradition dating back to Augustine or Aquinas?

[Billy Cox]

So how can we as Christians counter this subversive influence? Do we need workshops on intolerance for educators and students? Can we simply live an intolerant lifestyle and hope they notice and are influenced for the good by it or do we need to be more intentional in our training? If the train has already left the station how will we respond to this generation of young people who have been taught to value people regardless of their race, religion, skin color, creed, nationality, and sexual orientation?

Nah... We just need to teach the Bible as the inerrant Word Of God and the intolerance will follow.

[Paul DeBaufer]

I am particularly close to two highly intelligent, theologically reflective, young people in the age group we are discussing.

Person #1 is very connected with the church. However, this person has no concern for denominational loyalty. This person will go to any church where the Gospel is proclaimed and the community is attempting to live out the teachings of Jesus. Some of this person's closest friends are gay, and are viewed as people on a journey, trying to work on "who they are" in the same way this person is. This person is passionate about making a difference in the world for Christ - to show God's love and grace to people - and is currently spending a year doing just that, on the other side of the world.

Person #2 is passionate about following Jesus, but alienated from the church due to what this person sees as hypocrisy, and the deadening function of all institutions. THis person is willing to take strong, passionate stands on various social issues, and has grown frustrated by the church's unwillingness to take stands on the most important issues, while taking stands on issues that this person believes separate people from the God of love and grace.

In both cases, I do not see "radical tolerance." What I see is a desire to draw the lines of what truly matters in very different places than where the church has drawn them. They do not see gays as being the enemy - they see Christians who point at gays while not living up to their own marital vows as the problem. They see "God and Country" as the problem. They see hypocrisy and the church's love affair with economic and political policies that keep the poor poor and make the rich into examples of God's blessing as the problem. This is not radical tolerance at all. This is an attempt to take seriously the teachings of Jesus and to "do justly, love mercy, and walk humbly with their God."

I love these two. I have people that are in their 50s & 60s in my small group who feel the same.

[Billy Cox]

That's not the case everywhere. I can say that's not how things work here. Of course, the District's investment in new ministries is a full-time staff person in the district office who resources and mentors the leaders - and does not come in the form of finances. That helps a lot with expectations.

But it's really happening on its own - sometimes its within a denomination structure, most of the time it's not. I was simply stating that we're seeing a big shift to the type of thing you described in your last paragraph. It's happening.

True, and I acknowledge that my experience with denominational pressure was under the KC District's former regime. The respective DS's approach probably goes a long way to either temper denominational pressure on new congregations to become a 'performing franchise' or to ratchet it up a notch or three.

[Billy Cox]

I love these two. I have people that are in their 50s & 60s in my small group who feel the same.

Yes, it's a bit of a misplaced caricature to limit the scope of discussion to 20-somethings. Postmodern objections to the institutional church are nothing new.

[Billy Cox]

Person #1 is very connected with the church. However, this person has no concern for denominational loyalty. This person will go to any church where the Gospel is proclaimed and the community is attempting to live out the teachings of Jesus. Some of this person's closest friends are gay, and are viewed as people on a journey, trying to work on "who they are" in the same way this person is. This person is passionate about making a difference in the world for Christ - to show God's love and grace to people - and is currently spending a year doing just that, on the other side of the world.

Person #2 is passionate about following Jesus, but alienated from the church due to what this person sees as hypocrisy, and the deadening function of all institutions. THis person is willing to take strong, passionate stands on various social issues, and has grown frustrated by the church's unwillingness to take stands on the most important issues, while taking stands on issues that this person believes separate people from the God of love and grace.

I relate more with person #2, while recognizing the moral hazard of such an outlook.

While the institutional man says, "sure, I spend a lot of time doing useless or counterproductive things, but there are the occasional good outcomes that more than compensate for all of the busy work", the post-institutional man has the burden of identifying the good things to do without an institutional template.

Perhaps there is the satisfaction or even moral superiority in working out one's own salvation, but it is far more work.

[Marsha Lynn]

So how can we as Christians counter this subversive influence? Do we need workshops on intolerance for educators and students? Can we simply live an intolerant lifestyle and hope they notice and are influenced for the good by it or do we need to be more intentional in our training?

Nah... We just need to teach the Bible as the inerrant Word Of God and the intolerance will follow.

I realized after I posted that many of us already attend weekend seminars promoting intolerance toward those whose sins are different from ours.

[Marsha Lynn]

I am particularly close to two highly intelligent, theologically reflective, young people in the age group we are discussing.

Person #1 is very connected with the church. However, this person has no concern for denominational loyalty. This person will go to any church where the Gospel is proclaimed and the community is attempting to live out the teachings of Jesus. Some of this person's closest friends are gay, and are viewed as people on a journey, trying to work on "who they are" in the same way this person is. This person is passionate about making a difference in the world for Christ - to show God's love and grace to people - and is currently spending a year doing just that, on the other side of the world.

Person #2 is passionate about following Jesus, but alienated from the church due to what this person sees as hypocrisy, and the deadening function of all institutions. THis person is willing to take strong, passionate stands on various social issues, and has grown frustrated by the church's unwillingness to take stands on the most important issues, while taking stands on issues that this person believes separate people from the God of love and grace.

In both cases, I do not see "radical tolerance." What I see is a desire to draw the lines of what truly matters in very different places than where the church has drawn them. They do not see gays as being the enemy - they see Christians who point at gays while not living up to their own marital vows as the problem. They see "God and Country" as the problem. They see hypocrisy and the church's love affair with economic and political policies that keep the poor poor and make the rich into examples of God's blessing as the problem. This is not radical tolerance at all. This is an attempt to take seriously the teachings of Jesus and to "do justly, love mercy, and walk humbly with their God."

May I have another "thanks" button, please? Or two or three?

The one small comment I would make, and one I think your young friend would support, is that anti-gay rhetoric is no more attractive coming from a person in a long-term heterosexual marriage than it is from someone with broken relationships in their personal history. Showing a lack of grace toward those with less success in "righteous" living than we have is still a sign that we have no clue how much grace God has extended toward us.

Marsha

[John Reilly]

There is no pure "20 something worldview" because the 20 somethings have an eclectic blurred world view. As discussed in this post the 20 something with some church affiliation have a different view than those who are "Christian" yet alienated from the church and the third general group being those who are "Christian" in a geo-political sense. On morality, the 20 something may hold an ideal on a theoretical level but in their won life likely they blur the morality boundary for their personal convenience. So in my experience, I know some 20 somethings whoa re very loyal to Jesus and His church, I know some 20 somethings who are investigating the church again, and I know some fringe 20 somethings who are "christian but not church attenders. In general the 20 something world view has been flavored and tainted by pluralism in America. Twenty somethings have created their own god by taking pieces of religions that appeal to them and creating an other than Christian world view. The new book, "Bad Religion, WHy we are a nation of heretics" by Ross Douthat will help in this discussion. The American culture is very religious in that it is experiencing pluralism in the realm of freedom of religion. America is a religious and not a secular culture much like in biblical Rome when Paul made note of the monument to the Unknown god!