Using other preachers' sermons

[Eric Buell]

"Seriously, we had to pull all of my sermons off the Internet. Found out there was some guy named Osteen who kept stealing them and preaching them as his own."
This quote from Mike Schultz in the sermon thread got me thinking about something that is very concerning to me.

What are your thoughts on pastors preaching other preachers' sermons? One of my very good friends shared with me that he uses others' sermons exclusively - has done so for the past four years. He finds them at open church.tv and other sites that offer them as resources. The thing that gets me is he gives no credit to the sermon author in any way. He seems to pass them off as his own.

Am I just being legalistic since the response is usually "there's nothing new under the sun"?

I appreciate your input. I've expressed my concern to him but I wanted to hear if this is more common than I am aware of.

[Craig Laughlin]

If passed off as his own he should be terminated.

[Gene Tatsch]

"He seems to pass them off as his own. "

I've encountered it.
It's plagarism, it's lying.
In other fields (e.g., journalism, science) it's explicit grounds for employment termination.
It's tragic that he is so deceived as to claim it's not sin.

[Doug Kitchen]

"Seriously, we had to pull all of my sermons off the Internet. Found out there was some guy named Osteen who kept stealing them and preaching them as his own."
This quote from Mike Schultz in the sermon thread got me thinking about something that is very concerning to me.

What are your thoughts on pastors preaching other preachers' sermons? One of my very good friends shared with me that he uses others' sermons exclusively - has done so for the past four years. He finds them at open church.tv and other sites that offer them as resources. The thing that gets me is he gives no credit to the sermon author in any way. He seems to pass them off as his own.

Am I just being legalistic since the response is usually "there's nothing new under the sun"?

I appreciate your input. I've expressed my concern to him but I wanted to hear if this is more common than I am aware of.

Eric,

I think you are right to be concerned. I have known pastor's who "literally" read other people's sermons in their entirety without attribution. I have been tempted to bring them up on charges because it is intrinsically deceitful and habitual. It appears that the practice is fairly widespread which does not make it right or acceptable. Preacher's magazine does not copyright their material but that still does not make it right because this is not a legal issue. If a pastor has no original thoughts as a sermon to present, then they should just read the scripture. In my book, I'd rather know that the pastor was too busy to put a good 20 minute talk together than for the them to "hide" the issue. It is hard for me to believe that someone else's sermon written thousands of miles away would be very useful to my local congregation.

I had one pastor tell me that no one seemed to remember his sermons from week to week (he was quoting maxwell at the time), so it didn't really matter what I spoke about when I filled in the next week. Later I found out that he was reading other people's material. There was a reason that no one remembered his sermons.

Pastor's in other denominations have been fired and/or defrocked for this type of behavior.

When a congregation finds out that their pastor is just a talking head, they will lose respect for that person. Eventually, people will catch on that the pastor uses words in their sermons that they never use in everyday speech. As a layman, I appreciate a pastor's heartfelt comments no matter how poorly worded over a plagairized sermon. The sermon is a good point to reinforce the leader's direction and plans week after week. How could borrowed sermons work in this regard?

The practice of borrowing an outline (even in its entirety) is not such a problem. Borrowing illustrations can be a problem but still probably not terrible if attribution is given.

[Jon Twitchell]

I quoted Mike Schutz this morning in my sermon.

He posted something on his facebook that fit in perfectly with my message, so I made a last minute insertion.
The audio makes it clear that I was quoting someone, although it doesn't cite his name... however the powerpoint slide lists his name under the quote.

Ideal? No... but aural citations can be pretty awkward sometimes.

(Let's see how long until Mike defriends me, so I don't steal his great material again!)

(I know... this isn't really what you're talking about... you're talking about the wholesale lifting of sermons... which I think is pretty awful... especially if you're passing it off as your own. I have done some pretty significant borrowing from a couple of colleagues before... but am careful to somehow indicate that my sermon is heavily based on their work. I struggle the most with the packaged series that you can use as a church-wide campaign.... I generally don't like using them because they require more work to personalize the message than if I'd written it from scratch.)

[Pete Vecchi]

I think this subject has been addressed before here in some form or another.

First, full disclosure here: I am a pastor, and I try to not use other people's stuff (and if I do, it's generally just a relatively small snippet, and I try to give credit for where I got the info).

That being said, I personally think that we often make too big a deal out of the issue. We are here to proclaim the truth of Jesus Christ. If we hear or read something else that proclaims this truth, then sharing that truth should be the main issue.

That being said, I believe that it is disingenuous if a preacher uses someone else's illustration as though it happened as a personal experience.

But the truth is that I'm 51 years old and I can't tell you where I've learned all of the things I've learned. There have been times when I have come up with something I thought was totally original (I'm thinking specifically of musical passages in this case) when literally years later I heard the same passage in a song I'd known since well before I "composed" what I did. One time, even the words were exactly the same.

I'm sure that I have had this happen to me while preaching as well. I can't always recall my sources.

That's just my opinion. The bottom line is that each person will have to stand before God, so I'll leave the judgment to Him.

[Jon Twitchell]

I think this subject has been addressed before here in some form or another.

First, full disclosure here: I am a pastor, and I try to not use other people's stuff (and if I do, it's generally just a relatively small snippet, and I try to give credit for where I got the info).

That being said, I personally think that we often make too big a deal out of the issue. We are here to proclaim the truth of Jesus Christ. If we hear or read something else that proclaims this truth, then sharing that truth should be the main issue.

That being said, I believe that it is disingenuous if a preacher uses someone else's illustration as though it happened as a personal experience.

But the truth is that I'm 51 years old and I can't tell you where I've learned all of the things I've learned. There have been times when I have come up with something I thought was totally original (I'm thinking specifically of musical passages in this case) when literally years later I heard the same passage in a song I'd known since well before I "composed" what I did. One time, even the words were exactly the same.

I'm sure that I have had this happen to me while preaching as well. I can't always recall my sources.

That's just my opinion. The bottom line is that each person will have to stand before God, so I'll leave the judgment to Him.

I think that most of what you're talking about isn't the same thing as what's being talked about here... lifting an entire sermon from someone else as delivering it as though it was your own. I fully agree with you when you talk about sharing something you've heard or learned, without knowing the source... it happens to me all the time... and I'm not yet 40!

However, I would argue that it does matter if material is stolen and passed off as one's own... even if we are proclaiming truth.

How we do something is nearly (if not entirely) as important as what we do. The integrity with which we preach is nearly (if not entirely) as important as the content that we preach.

[Mike Schutz]

I quoted Mike Schutz this morning in my sermon.

He posted something on his facebook that fit in perfectly with my message, so I made a last minute insertion.
The audio makes it clear that I was quoting someone, although it doesn't cite his name... however the powerpoint slide lists his name under the quote.

Ideal? No... but aural citations can be pretty awkward sometimes.

(Let's see how long until Mike defriends me, so I don't steal his great material again!)

(I know... this isn't really what you're talking about... you're talking about the wholesale lifting of sermons... which I think is pretty awful... especially if you're passing it off as your own. I have done some pretty significant borrowing from a couple of colleagues before... but am careful to somehow indicate that my sermon is heavily based on their work. I struggle the most with the packaged series that you can use as a church-wide campaign.... I generally don't like using them because they require more work to personalize the message than if I'd written it from scratch.)

Assuming that the quote you referenced was the one about all the best preachers are married to women who studied music at ENC

Just make sure you give me a full footnote citation in your next book- it's the closest I'll ever come to being published.

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

I remember hearing this at Palcon years ago:

The first time it is said, "Dr. So-and-so, in his book on this topic says...."

The second time it is said, "I read somewhere...."

The third time it is said, "I've been thinking...."

[Pete Vecchi]

I think that most of what you're talking about isn't the same thing as what's being talked about here... lifting an entire sermon from someone else as delivering it as though it was your own. I fully agree with you when you talk about sharing something you've heard or learned, without knowing the source... it happens to me all the time... and I'm not yet 40!

However, I would argue that it does matter if material is stolen and passed off as one's own... even if we are proclaiming truth.

How we do something is nearly (if not entirely) as important as what we do. The integrity with which we preach is nearly (if not entirely) as important as the content that we preach.

I remember hearing this at Palcon years ago:

The first time it is said, "Dr. So-and-so, in his book on this topic says...."

The second time it is said, "I read somewhere...."

The third time it is said, "I've been thinking...."

When I said in a previous post, "I think this subject has been addressed before here in some form or another.", I think I remember the quote I just copied here from Scott as having been posted by him at that time too.

I agree that how something is done is important. But I wonder just what can be considered "stealing" when it comes to the preached word.

While I see Scripture clearly indicate that stealing is wrong, I don't see "stealing" necessarily relating to ideas. True, I believe that if the idea that is taken would deprive the person from whom it was taken in some way, then perhaps the case can be made that it is indeed stealing (for instance, if it's copyrighted material).

But I suggest that it may not even be "stealing" if there is no copyright AND if the information is publicly disseminated (for instance on the internet); I'd argue that it would be public domain.

Now, is it "plagiarism"? Perhaps, but that's something that has been defined more by scholars than by the Bible.

Hey--I just like to bring up different aspects of the matter. Personally, I've felt somewhat funny about re-using my own material from previous messages--even when I re-work it from how I used it before.

[Gina Stevenson]

Hey--I just like to bring up different aspects of the matter. Personally, I've felt somewhat funny about re-using my own material from previous messages--even when I re-work it from how I used it before.

But Pete, would that not be similar to feeling one cannot sing the same song they have sung before, even tho' they practice it anew? Don't think that would be so awful, actually.

[Hal Paul]

Back when I traveled a lot, I'd visit different churches each week and was amazed at how similar the sermon I heard this week was to the one I heard last week, or at least it tied very well into the previous weeks sermon. it was almost like preachers at different churches in different states were preaching from the same outline, then one day, I picked up a copy of "Preachers Magazine" at my in-laws house and read the outline of a sermon series I had heard a month or two before. None of the preachers mentioned where they got their material, so up until that point I assumed they had been developing it on their own and thought God was trying to get through to me about something. Once I read the magazine I lost all sense of mystery, or the thought that God was trying to tell me something. Oh, and I thought quite a bit less of those preachers who had used the sermon outlines the church had sent to them.

At any rate, it seems the church kind of encourages preachers to plagiarize sermons, if it sends them three months of outlines every quarter, so it isn't much of an ethical leap for pastors to pull something from the internet.

[David Graham]

In my preparation for a sermon I'll look for inspiration from some sermons online or in books...... but they are only there to give me some "ideas". In the end the sermons I write are mine clothed in my words via my personality and my theological understanding at the time, even though I might include some quotes from other people's sermons. e.g. "I remember reading that such and such said this....." and then speak either for or against that idea. Sometimes though you get some really great illustrations from another preacher's sermons.

[Pete Vecchi]

The truth is that sometimes ideas that are in some of the sermons I preach come from places such as television and Facebook.

Oh -- and even NazNet...

[Jon Twitchell]

I think there's a distinct difference between allowing an idea to shape your sermon... and taking the sermon outright.

I suspect that preachers who use an outline have a different view of this than those who use a manuscript. I regularly preach from a manuscript... which means that even if I use an illustration that I found on the internet (a pretty rare occurrence, but it does happen), I try to be careful to rework the illustration in my own words.

Depending on the detail of the outline, one could copy an outline and I think it would barely qualify as copying, let alone plagiarism. At the same time, some outlines are so detailed that they come pretty close to a manuscript. And if someone were to take my sermons (which are a full manuscript), they would have to do a lot of reworking to make them sound good at all!

[Craig Laughlin]

Back when I traveled a lot, I'd visit different churches each week and was amazed at how similar the sermon I heard this week was to the one I heard last week, or at least it tied very well into the previous weeks sermon. it was almost like preachers at different churches in different states were preaching from the same outline, then one day, I picked up a copy of "Preachers Magazine" at my in-laws house and read the outline of a sermon series I had heard a month or two before. None of the preachers mentioned where they got their material, so up until that point I assumed they had been developing it on their own and thought God was trying to get through to me about something. Once I read the magazine I lost all sense of mystery, or the thought that God was trying to tell me something. Oh, and I thought quite a bit less of those preachers who had used the sermon outlines the church had sent to them.

At any rate, it seems the church kind of encourages preachers to plagiarize sermons, if it sends them three months of outlines every quarter, so it isn't much of an ethical leap for pastors to pull something from the internet.

For may years Preachers Magazine was doing this specifically to help pastors who had trouble putting together quality sermons either because they didn't know how or were working other jobs and didn't have the time. It might be helpful to introduce here the idea of team preaching. It is groups of people getting together to work on the same sermon. (I sometimes do this with my staff and I've offered to do it here on Naznet, others have done it around the lectionary) Preacher's Magazine, many years ago made a deliberate attempt to provide this for preachers who did not have the time or skill set needed for good preaching. Using the magazine as a medium pastors all over the country got to prepare with some of the brightest and most effective preachers in our denomination. Additionally, it was hoped that by modeling a exegetical/hermeneutical model for preparation that the those pastors with less theological education would have the opportunity to learn. Additionally they published many articles about how to create a sermon. The outlines presented were in fact intended to provide the "backbone" of sermons for pastors to preach. They were expected to provide the "flesh" of the sermon. Team preaching on a large almost lectionary scale.

I very much support that effort. I think a pastor could well have said to a congregation, our denomination is providing a new preaching resource that allows me to collaborate with some of our best preachers and I'm going to take advantage of that so if you notice some changes it is because I am being given the opportunity to work with some really great folks. Say that once early on and I don't think it needs to be repeated every Sunday. Even if they had not said this they were still working within the understond confines of the material given and still had to produce the "flesh" of the sermon.

[Larry Parsons]

when I started out as pastor I found a lot good sermon in book that would like preach but I didn't know if I should preach their sermon or not so I wrote them and ask if it was ok for me to preach thier sermons. Everyone say yes and one even said that why we have them in print so preacher could use them. On the mission flied in some case the national pastor are brought together and people like rick warren will preach to them and the national pastor will go back to their people preach what they hear. I remember I was in a service on Sat night Thomas Rockwell was preaching and my pastor was there that night as well anyway the next morning he preach the very same sermon that Rockwell preach Saturday night. If we are in this together building the kingdom why not share our sermons with one another preacher. Anyway that my thought
Thanks
Larry

[Houston Thomas]

In the US, using another preacher's sermon - verbatim - isn't well received and it makes me uncomfortable. But I do wonder if part of that isn't cultural. Whenever I've taught or spoken publicly in S. America or even Western Europe I have been asked afterward if they could "use my teaching." I can't imagine that they actually did but, if so, I'd actually never expect them to credit me.

I wonder if our N. American individualism lead us to place a high emphasis on considering the material we create as "mine" therefore using it without permission is "stealing." The audience expects the teacher to craft and deliver something original. Something unoriginal is deceptive.

My objection to using another person's sermon verbatim isn't because I find it deceptive as much as I find it lazy. I believe in contexts. The Spirit has specific words to say in a specific context through specific people. You can't buy or download that.

[Mike Schutz]

First, please understand that I am not suggesting it is appropriate for someone to present someone else's work as their own. That is an integrity issue.

That being said, it is a great deal of hard work to create a new, creative, and interesting sermon every week. These days, preachers are not being compared to the preacher down the street, but to the mega church preachers their congregation watches on TV or listens to online. For some in my church, mine are the third of four sermons they hear every Sunday. They watch two before church, and another on Sunday night.

For me, preaching and teaching are my primary pastoral gifts. There is no aspect of pastoral ministry I enjoy more than preparing and preaching a sermon. My congregation will readily share that those things are what I do best. However, there are many days when they would gladly have a pastor less gifted as a preacher and more gifted as an administrator, a minister of visitation, or even as a kind, caring human being. In those areas I fall dreadfully short.

When I served on the staff of one of our colleges, I served under six college presidents. Some were outstanding public speakers, some much less so. It was apparent that, while being a good communicator was essential to being a good president, being an outstanding orator was not necessary. There are other skills more important to that work. In another thread, Dave McClung spoke of his belief that pastors must spend more time on the relationship aspects of the role, even to the detriment of time spent in sermon preparation. Every time I think about it, I wake up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat - because I think he is right.

One of my favorite political writers, Ellen Goodman, once wrote that the problem with American politics is that we want larger-than-life figures who can change the world, but who will still be home in time for supper. We want people who are just like us, and also not like us at all. We want pastors who can be just one of the gang, and who also can stand up and with confidence and ease do something that most humans find more anxiety-producing than death itself.

All that to say, no pastor has all of the gifts that we would list as desirable for that ministry. If churches want a creative, entertaining, challenging sermon that comes out of the intense study of the pastor, without assistance from outside sermon preparation helps written by those who are more gifted in the task, and have more time to put into it, they will have to sacrifice something else. And for the small church, it is especially difficult.

[David Showalter]

I think this subject has been addressed before here in some form or another.

First, full disclosure here: I am a pastor, and I try to not use other people's stuff (and if I do, it's generally just a relatively small snippet, and I try to give credit for where I got the info).

That being said, I personally think that we often make too big a deal out of the issue. We are here to proclaim the truth of Jesus Christ. If we hear or read something else that proclaims this truth, then sharing that truth should be the main issue.

That being said, I believe that it is disingenuous if a preacher uses someone else's illustration as though it happened as a personal experience.

But the truth is that I'm 51 years old and I can't tell you where I've learned all of the things I've learned. There have been times when I have come up with something I thought was totally original (I'm thinking specifically of musical passages in this case) when literally years later I heard the same passage in a song I'd known since well before I "composed" what I did. One time, even the words were exactly the same.

I'm sure that I have had this happen to me while preaching as well. I can't always recall my sources.

That's just my opinion. The bottom line is that each person will have to stand before God, so I'll leave the judgment to Him.

Pete, I'm 55 and feel about the way you do. Recently I contacted Dr. Porter's office to ask him if I could have a copy of a message he preached at our District Assembly, in my opinion it was "powerful." I let him know I wanted his permission to preach/share it with my church. I assured him I'd give credit as to where it came from. He sent me a powerpoint presentation of the message and TOLD ME I COULD ONLY USE IT IF I POLISHED IT UP, PREACHED IT BETTER THAN HE DID and did not mention or worry about where it came from. Obviously, I did, and still give credit when I use large portions of other preacher’s materials.

On the other hand, I think most of us use, and should use, good material in our messages that come from others. I personally think it is very distractive to the hearers if a speaker constantly takes time to share and give credit for a sentence or two here and there throughout their message about where they found or read that information, fact, truth, or illustration. I often remind my people that the majority of what I share comes from better biblical scholars, theologians, and preachers than I am.
Obviously, there are some preachers who do not take the time to study, research, and prayerfully prepare sound biblical messages that will speak to the needs of their congregations, and so, merely copy or lift messages and material from others - shame on them. I PRAY THEY ARE FEW IN NUMBER. I had a layman in one of our churches contact me and share that his pastor was literally doing that. For several Sundays the layman used his i-pod to follow along word for word. The pastor never gave credit or indicated the message was being lifted in its entirety from the internet. Surely this is RARE.
For the rest of us, I believe we need to keep on using the best insights we discover as we study, research pray, and prepare to share grace and truth with our congregations and not get too concerned about giving anyone much credit, save JESUS. My folks know I read, research, and use lots and lots of thoughts from others. So, I’m sorry because I AM SURE I HAVE USED a line or two from some of you folks here on Naznet without letting my congregation know who you are.

[Craig Laughlin]

Reading this thread I think there is an understandable but dangerous trend toward blending a couple of issues.

There is an ethical issue about representing something to be mine which is clearly not. (The first part of this thread) The second is the issue of the "richeness" of the pool from which a pastor draws her/his sermon. I'm a deep believer in a very rich pool. Anything I create others are welcome to use. However that is not the same as taking one of my sermons whole cloth and representing it to the congregation as their own. In that case I have not been offended for everything I do belongs to God, the issue is lying to the congregation and that is very serious.

I'm not even a big fan of much attribution at all in sermons. Someone has said, or I heard someone say, or I once heard... are all fine with me. My rule is if I know someone else created this I make it clear it isn't mine. This is about my integrity not making sure the right person gets the credit.

I love a rich preaching/thinking environment and the sermons I enjoy the most are the ones where a lot of folks get involved in thinking about it and kicking it around. Additionally for me a part of preaching is getting the folks to interact with the text, so in some ways what happens before I step on the platform is just an extension of what I want to happen when I step on the platform.

[Nate Pruitt]

"Seriously, we had to pull all of my sermons off the Internet. Found out there was some guy named Osteen who kept stealing them and preaching them as his own."
This quote from Mike Schultz in the sermon thread got me thinking about something that is very concerning to me.

What are your thoughts on pastors preaching other preachers' sermons? One of my very good friends shared with me that he uses others' sermons exclusively - has done so for the past four years. He finds them at open church.tv and other sites that offer them as resources. The thing that gets me is he gives no credit to the sermon author in any way. He seems to pass them off as his own.

Am I just being legalistic since the response is usually "there's nothing new under the sun"?

I appreciate your input. I've expressed my concern to him but I wanted to hear if this is more common than I am aware of.

There are some guidelines to using the lifechurch.tv resources through their open resource page. Quoting verbatim without citation is not approved usage. I wouldn't let myself be in breach of the contract I sign by saying I agree to their terms & conditions. Now have I quoted Pastor Craig from lifechurch? Yes. I've quoted many pastors. My citations will vary, though. Recently I used a quote from Francis Chan. Being as he's somewhat controversial I made it clear I was quoting someone, "As I heard this week..." but did not mention his name specifically. I needed people to hear the quote, not dismiss it on the basis of the source. (Churches are great places to live out ad hominem biases, it seems.) However, based on the fact that we are always trying to educate our members on our tradition I never fail to cite Wesley in the slides and orally, or Ray Dunning and others directly tied to our denomination. We're finding that with persistence those who have been coming for some time are now sharing a faith that exhibits these theological influences.

[Craig Laughlin]

There are some guidelines to using the lifechurch.tv resources through their open resource page. Quoting verbatim without citation is not approved usage. I wouldn't let myself be in breach of the contract I sign by saying I agree to their terms & conditions. Now have I quoted Pastor Craig from lifechurch? Yes. I've quoted many pastors. My citations will vary, though. Recently I used a quote from Francis Chan. Being as he's somewhat controversial I made it clear I was quoting someone, "As I heard this week..." but did not mention his name specifically. I needed people to hear the quote, not dismiss it on the basis of the source. (Churches are great places to live out ad hominem biases, it seems.) However, based on the fact that we are always trying to educate our members on our tradition I never fail to cite Wesley in the slides and orally, or Ray Dunning and others directly tied to our denomination. We're finding that with persistence those who have been coming for some time are now sharing a faith that exhibits these theological influences.

Right on.

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

It's good to remember that sometimes we just receive a sermon, intact from the Lord and we don't have to credit anyone but him.

I remember a few years ago in the evening I went very unwillingly to a society in Aldersgate Street, where one was reading Luther's preface to the Epistle to the Romans. About a quarter before nine, while the leader was describing the change which God works in the heart through faith in Christ, I felt my heart strangely warmed. I felt I did trust in Christ alone for salvation; and an assurance was given me that He had taken away my sins, even mine, and saved me from the law of sin and death.

I'm so glad I had that experience and can share it with you here.

[Pete Vecchi]

It's good to remember that sometimes we just receive a sermon, intact from the Lord and we don't have to credit anyone but him.

I remember a few years ago in the evening I went very unwillingly to a society in Aldersgate Street, where one was reading Luther's preface to the Epistle to the Romans. About a quarter before nine, while the leader was describing the change which God works in the heart through faith in Christ, I felt my heart strangely warmed. I felt I did trust in Christ alone for salvation; and an assurance was given me that He had taken away my sins, even mine, and saved me from the law of sin and death.

I'm so glad I had that experience and can share it with you here.

Can you tell me more about how your heart was strangely warmed? What was it that made you decide to go when you said you were "unwilling" to do so? What were you planning on doing otherwise? And how did a Nazarene such as you happen upon a place where they were reading Luther's writings?

[Larry Parsons]

when I started out as pastor I found a lot good sermon in book that would like preach but I didn't know if I should preach their sermon or not so I wrote them and ask if it was ok for me to preach thier sermons. Everyone say yes and one even said that why we have them in print so preacher could use them. On the mission flied in some case the national pastor are brought together and people like rick warren will preach to them and the national pastor will go back to their people preach what they hear. I remember I was in a service on Sat night Thomas Rockwell was preaching and my pastor was there that night as well anyway the next morning he preach the very same sermon that Rockwell preach Saturday night. If we are in this together building the kingdom why not share our sermons with one another preacher. Anyway that my thought
Thanks
Larry

I have seen a outstanding Nazarene pastor take book to pulpit and read a sermon from it. He held the book where everyone could see it and that ok Because we knew it wasn't his book.
Thanks
Larry

[John Reilly]

I have never shared my sermons on public media. We do make dvd's for children's workers, shut ins and folks home sick.

[Eric Buell]

I really appreciate all the thoughts. I was just wondering if i was off base by being put off with the verbatim use (down to illustrations of Craig Groeshel's wife with my friend's wife's name inserted) of others' sermons. I know in my academic research that I would be expelled for that kind of thing. I try to always give credit when using someone's work or even ideas whether I am writing up findings or preaching.

The bottom line is that he is my friend. I love him and want to support him in a healthy way without being overly critical. I keep in mind my brother's advice (also a Naz pastor) of "woe to the pastor who criticizes another pastor's preaching". I've been praying for an opportune moment to talk to m friend about it.

[Nate Pruitt]

I was just wondering if i was off base by being put off with the verbatim use (down to illustrations of Craig Groeshel's wife with my friend's wife's name inserted) of others' sermons.

That's rather unnerving, but Craig does speak glowingly of Amy when he preaches. Still, I would imagine it would be awkward to sit through your husband's sermon knowing the good things he was saying about you weren't true. So... odd.

[Craig Laughlin]

That's rather unnerving, but Craig does speak glowingly of Amy when he preaches. Still, I would imagine it would be awkward to sit through your husband's sermon knowing the good things he was saying about you weren't true. So... odd.

Bizaar, is what it would be.

[Gene Tatsch]

First, please understand that I am not suggesting it is appropriate for someone to present someone else's work as their own. That is an integrity issue.....

This is the core issue.
We all are pygmies standing on the shoulders of giants, but we MUST acknowledge those upon whose shoulders we stand!
Otherwise, it is deception.
And I want nothing to do with the deceiver!!

[Craig Laughlin]

I really appreciate all the thoughts. I was just wondering if i was off base by being put off with the verbatim use (down to illustrations of Craig Groeshel's wife with my friend's wife's name inserted) of others' sermons. I know in my academic research that I would be expelled for that kind of thing. I try to always give credit when using someone's work or even ideas whether I am writing up findings or preaching.

The bottom line is that he is my friend. I love him and want to support him in a healthy way without being overly critical. I keep in mind my brother's advice (also a Naz pastor) of "woe to the pastor who criticizes another pastor's preaching". I've been praying for an opportune moment to talk to m friend about it.

Eric I will be praying for you but I do think you need to have this talk. I once had to have one of these with a pastor friend, sadly I had to give the person an ultimatum about me outing them. It was crazy hard but once they brought me into the lie they made me complicit and policing our own ranks is a part of our duty. In my case the person changed their ways and it has worked out well. The person later thanked me.

I also know of at least one pastor in a fairly large church who got caught on this very issue by a layperson in the church. It cost them their job, nearly cost them their credential, and blew up the church. As hard as it may be to talk with your friend you are really doing them a favor. - And this isn't about criticizing his preaching it is about rescuing his integrity.

[Greg Farra]

We had a guy accuse our pastor (during one of the man's frequent rants about the many things he didn't our church) of using sermons off the internet. It was not true but could have been a harmful acuusation. The person who told me had heard him in the foyer going on about it. I told our pastor, who confronted the man. The man has since left (for various reasons). God help his next pastor.

[Craig Laughlin]

We had a guy accuse our pastor (during one of the man's frequent rants about the many things he didn't our church) of using sermons off the internet. It was not true but could have been a harmful acuusation. The person who told me had heard him in the foyer going on about it. I told our pastor, who confronted the man. The man has since left (for various reasons). God help his next pastor.

Hmmmm. - Just to be clear, as a fellow member of the clergy, outing a pastor on this issue (or almost any other moral issue) would mean talking to the DS.

[Kyle Borger]

Using resources and listening to sermons for direction is one thing. Putting no effort to update or personalize a sermon isn't a good thing. Now on the other hand if this person is just starting out and has no training then perhaps that is the best they can do. But I would be honest about it. Inserting yourself into another person's story is lying. You could tell the story but not as your own.

Like Craig suggested in some areas a team approach to a sermon can be useful. If there are multiple preaching points in a given week having one person prepare will save a lot of resources. It may be that the one pastor does all of the preaching or you use video technology, but there may be some situations where another pastor in a satellite church is given the prepared sermon and makes some minor adjustments and runs with it. The purpose would be to make sure the pastors have as much time possible to spend building relationships and mentoring. But the churches would know this is the system and no personal stories would be passed off as your own. The thought of that makes me very uncomfortable.

[Greg Farra]

Hmmmm. - Just to be clear, as a fellow member of the clergy, outing a pastor on this issue (or almost any other moral issue) would mean talking to the DS.

Every time this guy complained about something we would offer to 1) talk to the pastor one-onone;2) bring it to the church board; then 3) take it to the DS. Never got to one.

[Craig Laughlin]

Every time this guy complained about something we would offer to 1) talk to the pastor one-onone;2) bring it to the church board; then 3) take it to the DS. Never got to one.

I guess I'm not seeing the connection between what I am suggesting and this guy.

[Greg Farra]

I guess I'm not seeing the connection between what I am suggesting and this guy.

Who knows, I'm on allergy medicine and not thinking too clear!

[Craig Laughlin]

Who knows, I'm on allergy medicine and not thinking too clear!

Best answer ever.

[Eric Frey]

Let me play devils advocate for a moment (just for kicks). Does anyone ever sing a special at your church? do you require them to only sing original material? do you ask them to give credit to the original songwriter or artist if they are using someone else's song?