NFL musings

[Bob Hunter]

So this weekend was kinda of a weird NFL weekend: AZ beats NE, PHL beats BAL, Carolina beats NO!

Where is Mike Schultz? He needs to explain the NE meltdown.

The Eagles are 2-0 and they don't deserve it. But no matter how ugly the stats are, they won.

Can anyone stop the Niners? Sheesh...

[John Reilly]

The NE Patriots loss was a heart breaker. A field goal attempt was too much to the leftllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll llllllllllllllllllllllll.

[Wes Smith]

AND...Seattle beat Dallas. Poetic justice defined!

Friend,

Wes

[Nate Pruitt]

These games are all proving extremely difficult to watch. The refs are huddling more than the teams, only to "break" without accurately calling the fouls or properly enforcing the penalties half the time. I know for some it used to be fun to yell at the refs, but I think now the only legitimate response may be to stand in the stadium in outright shock and disbelief. Makes those college games all the better because the games on Sunday are just brutal to endure.

[Bob Hunter]

Peyton Manning and the Broncos had 3 turnovers in the first 15 minutes against the Falcons. Kinda unusual, and then Michael Turner gets arrested right after the game for DUI. Never a dull moment in the NFL.

[Michael Flowers]

I felt coming into this season that it would be a bit more interesting than recent seasons. Many teams trying to establish new QB's (Seattle, Washington, Tennessee, Indianapolis, etc....), the Saints being suspended almost out of contention (no head coach or assistant head coach), the emergence of 49ers last year as a legit team, and the list goes on and on. The refs I felt were only a minor issue, but they are becoming a much greater factor than they should have.

I watched the Ravens/Eagles game and watched an obvious pass interference call not get made (as a junior football and high school football referee this bugs me). I heard about a 5 yard penalty that was marked off as 11 yards. I heard about a questionable holding penalty against NE that may have cost them the game. The list goes on and on and on.....

The NFL could still be very interesting this year, especially with guys like RG3 living up to their advertisement. I just hope that the reffing improves over the next several weeks, even if the regular NFL refs don't come back.

[David Morris]

The Colts will win the Super Bowl! At least that's what happened when I played the Giants in the Super Bowl on Madden.

[Benjamin Burch]

The Colts will win the Super Bowl! At least that's what happened when I played the Giants in the Super Bowl on Madden.

Rookie doesn't count....

[Shea Zellweger]

A win is a win. 2 wins is 2 wins. Andy Reid starting a season 2-0 is pretty much a miracle (only the 2nd time in his career)

[Bob Hunter]

A win is a win. 2 wins is 2 wins. Andy Reid starting a season 2-0 is pretty much a miracle (only the 2nd time in his career)

Did you care to explain what happened in Phoenix this Sunday? All I know is that Michael Vick must have awoke pretty sore the next morning! Hard to believe the Cards are 3-0. Whowuldathunk!

[Jon Bemis]

Wow. Tonight's Packers/Seahawks game was won by . . . . The Officials! The reffing in this game was atrocious.

[Bob Hunter]

Wow. Tonight's Packers/Seahawks game was won by . . . . The Officials! The reffing in this game was atrocious.

Is there any chance this could get overturned by the NFL? I know that would be unprecedented, but it was so obvious that Jennings had the ball first and it was tucked to his chest indicating possession. It was not simultaneous possession because Jennings had the first touch and he tucked it. Tate got an arm wrap, but that is pretty common. Moreover, Jennings had the ball in his arms when he came out of the pile.

[Jon Bemis]

Is there any chance this could get overturned by the NFL? I know that would be unprecedented, but it was so obvious that Jennings had the ball first and it was tucked to his chest indicating possession. It was not simultaneous possession because Jennings had the first touch and he tucked it. Tate got an arm wrap, but that is pretty common. Moreover, Jennings had the ball in his arms when he came out of the pile.

No chance of it being overturned IMO. Just one of those things.

[Michael Flowers]

Is there any chance this could get overturned by the NFL? I know that would be unprecedented, but it was so obvious that Jennings had the ball first and it was tucked to his chest indicating possession. It was not simultaneous possession because Jennings had the first touch and he tucked it. Tate got an arm wrap, but that is pretty common. Moreover, Jennings had the ball in his arms when he came out of the pile.

Actually when the officials finally cleared the players off it was Tate who had the ball in his hands... so from that perspective. Also, when I saw the replay from the back of the endzone view, it didn't look Jennings had total control of that ball when he hit the ground, so.... I think in the end the call was based on the call on the field being a touchdown and the white hat not seeing enough evidence to overturn the call.

I'm a Seahawks fan who truly believes that they lost that game, but I don't see the league stepping in and changing anything.

[Craig Laughlin]

Like Michael said it was more complicated than the commentators let on, that being said folks in Seattle are not happy about it either. Lots of them are saying some variation of "we want to win but not like that..."

However, the more important point is that this was just the last bad call. The touchdown drive of the packers would very likely have been stopped had it not been for another bad call and the whole end of the game would have been different. The real problem is nobody won or lost because the reffing was so bad it impacted the outcome of the game on several occasions. -

Only two good things come out of this.

1. This bad a game on Monday night will create pressure to get the refs back from a lot of different folks

2. Seattle won.

[John Dahl]

1. This bad a game on Monday night will create pressure to get the refs back from a lot of different folks

But the only folks that matter are the owners. The commissioner, Roger Goodell, works for the owners so his hands are tied. As long as fans are still attending games and television ratings don't go down there is no incentive for the owners to end the lockout. It's possible for attendance and ratings to go down but I doubt that we'll see much difference this season even if the lockout lasts the whole season.

[Craig Laughlin]

But the only folks that matter are the owners. The commissioner, Roger Goodell, works for the owners so his hands are tied. As long as fans are still attending games and television ratings don't go down there is no incentive for the owners to end the lockout. It's possible for attendance and ratings to go down but I doubt that we'll see much difference this season even if the lockout lasts the whole season.

I don't know that it will break the impasse but if there is any possibility of what happens on the field creating pressure, this game was it. Really, really bad and clearly impacting the outcome on a Monday night with the final play for a game winning touchdown being highly controversial. Short of someone getting really hurt because of a bad call I can't think of a situation that would make a better case for change based on what is happening on the field.

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

Yep, the real refs are licking their chops after Monday night.

I think, seriously, that this is a reminder of just how hard it is to officiate such a violent game and it's highest level.

[Craig Laughlin]

Yep, the real refs are licking their chops after Monday night.

I think, seriously, that this is a reminder of just how hard it is to officiate such a violent game and it's highest level.

Yeah, we have people saying if they will bring the real refs back they promise not to complain about the calls... for at least one game... Impossibly difficult job, it really is amazing how often the regular refs get it right.

[Benjamin Burch]

My thoughts so far:

(1) This play is getting blown out of proportion. Do I think it was an INT? Yes. However, the rules on completing a catch "while going to the ground" have always been obscure and fans have continually gotten it wrong for about 5 years or so since the rule was put in place. The fact is that you have to maintain possession of the ball all the way through the process.

The mistake here, IMO, is that it should have been officiated the same as a fumble. Once the players were down, no call until the smoke cleared and someone had the football. IMO, it should have eventually gone to Jennings, but the outrage is out of proportion, considering most fans don't even know the rules which impinge on the play itself.

(2) The fact is that the owners and NFL have already offered to concede every financial demand of the NFLRA if they go full-time. Why won't they? They're asking the NFL to commit full-time and long-term to them, without the same commitment back. It seems to me that the NFL is actually right in this scenario, as hard as that satement might be for myself and others to swallow.

[Rich Schmidt]

My wife was away on a work trip last night and watched the game at a hotel. She's a Wisconsin-born Packers fan. She was so angry/frustrated/whatever that she had trouble falling asleep last night.

The strong consensus of everyone on TV and radio today is that the replacement refs are in way over their heads & have lost control. Frankly, it reminds me of a high school game I was at 2-3 weeks ago. The refs lost control of that one, too - long delays while the refs huddle, players and coaches getting fed up with them, etc.

[David Morris]

My thoughts so far:

(1) This play is getting blown out of proportion. Do I think it was an INT? Yes. However, the rules on completing a catch "while going to the ground" have always been obscure and fans have continually gotten it wrong for about 5 years or so since the rule was put in place. The fact is that you have to maintain possession of the ball all the way through the process.

The mistake here, IMO, is that it should have been officiated the same as a fumble. Once the players were down, no call until the smoke cleared and someone had the football. IMO, it should have eventually gone to Jennings, but the outrage is out of proportion, considering most fans don't even know the rules which impinge on the play itself.

(2) The fact is that the owners and NFL have already offered to concede every financial demand of the NFLRA if they go full-time. Why won't they? They're asking the NFL to commit full-time and long-term to them, without the same commitment back. It seems to me that the NFL is actually right in this scenario, as hard as that satement might be for myself and others to swallow.

In your mind, watching the replay, at what point is that process complete? When Jennings or Tate had the ball in their hands 5 yards from one another? Jennings had possession of the ball, and was laying on Tate who was on the ground, which means he is down. Looking at the picture below, how could you say that Tate had any part of that ball? He had more neck than anything.

The biggest mistake here is the replacement refs. Did you see the confusion on the face of the referee when he saw his fellow referee rule a touchdown while he was ruling for an interception? To make matters worse, Golden Tate was asked if he pushed off and he said, "I don't know what you talking about!" Seriously?

[Benjamin Burch]

In your mind, watching the replay, at what point is that process complete?

According to NFL rules, it is until the player is fully down on the ground and movement has stopped. Remember the Calvin Johnson TD? That was the correct call, as crazy as that sounds. The process wasn't complete, even though he'd clearly caught the ball for a TD. When he used the ball to get back up while rolling over, he lost control. We may disagree with the rule, but it's the rule and it is there to eliminate grey area.

So, in my opinion, even the photo you have there is not quite "complete" as Tate still could have knocked it loose. When is it complete? That's for the NFL and referees to decide. What I tire of is people at home assuming the know, when they've proven for 5 years they don't have a clue and don't even know the rule. How many people were upset about the Calvin Johnson play? Well, it was the right call, people jsut don't understand the rules.

Looking at the picture below, how could you say that Tate had any part of that ball? He had more neck than anything.

The play was much more complex than that shot. Again, IMO, Jennings won possession of that ball. However, my opinion doesn't count for as much as we pretend it does, and this play certainly doesn't work the way 90% of commentary I've heard on it would suggest that it does. It is a going to the ground play, which technically isn't a complete process while they're wrestling and moving.

The biggest mistake here is the replacement refs. Did you see the confusion on the face of the referee when he saw his fellow referee rule a touchdown while he was ruling for an interception? To make matters worse, Golden Tate was asked if he pushed off and he said, "I don't know what you talking about!" Seriously?

I am in complete agreement. However, that has no bearing on what the situation is with the real refs. The biggest mistake we make is assuming that just because the replacement refs suck, that means the NFL should cave to the NFLRA, no matter how absurd the demands.

[David Morris]

According to NFL rules, it is until the player is fully down on the ground and movement has stopped. Remember the Calvin Johnson TD? That was the correct call, as crazy as that sounds. The process wasn't complete, even though he'd clearly caught the ball for a TD. When he used the ball to get back up while rolling over, he lost control. We may disagree with the rule, but it's the rule and it is there to eliminate grey area.

So, in my opinion, even the photo you have there is not quite "complete" as Tate still could have knocked it loose. When is it complete? That's for the NFL and referees to decide. What I tire of is people at home assuming the know, when they've proven for 5 years they don't have a clue and don't even know the rule. How many people were upset about the Calvin Johnson play? Well, it was the right call, people jsut don't understand the rules.



The play was much more complex than that shot. Again, IMO, Jennings won possession of that ball. However, my opinion doesn't count for as much as we pretend it does, and this play certainly doesn't work the way 90% of commentary I've heard on it would suggest that it does. It is a going to the ground play, which technically isn't a complete process while they're wrestling and moving.



I am in complete agreement. However, that has no bearing on what the situation is with the real refs. The biggest mistake we make is assuming that just because the replacement refs suck, that means the NFL should cave to the NFLRA, no matter how absurd the demands.

And this is where discernment by a referee comes into play. If a play isn't over until movement has stopped, then a catch and run into the end zone ending with a dunk over the goal posts is a fumble.

[Benjamin Burch]

And this is where discernment by a referee comes into play. If a play isn't over until movement has stopped, then a catch and run into the end zone ending with a dunk over the goal posts is a fumble.

No. Again, you misunderstand the rule. It is a pass reception where the receiver is going to the ground on the catch. I am not sure what you are talking about, but it certainly isn't the rule. The rule exists to get rid of discernment and make it black and white.

[Shea Zellweger]

No. Again, you misunderstand the rule. It is a pass reception where the receiver is going to the ground on the catch. I am not sure what you are talking about, but it certainly isn't the rule. The rule exists to get rid of discernment and make it black and white.

If it were just the catch, your point would be well-taken. The way the replay shows it, the call in the replay booth was going to be whatever the call on the field was. However, there is supposed to be one dedicated official per receiver, and everyone knew a Hail Mary was coming, so it's pretty hard to justify missing the OPI which preceded the catch.

[Benjamin Burch]

If it were just the catch, your point would be well-taken. The way the replay shows it, the call in the replay booth was going to be whatever the call on the field was. However, there is supposed to be one dedicated official per receiver, and everyone knew a Hail Mary was coming, so it's pretty hard to justify missing the OPI which preceded the catch.

I agree, although both OPI and DPI are missed on a regular basis. The only muddier area in the NFL is holding.

Likewise, Kam Chancelor's DPI earlier in the game was likely a blown call, and led to a GB TD, in which case the game might have been over a long time before. I don't usually get worried about penalties like that because they're often missed and in a 60-minute game, tend to come out in the wash, as is my opinion of this one.

Again, I understand the idea is to get the call right, period. So, it doesn't matter if they messed upearlier, they should get this one right. We all just know taht they get calls wrong, period, and I think it came out in the wash.

[Bob Hunter]

Guys, help me out here. I'm hearing of different rules applied to this one catch. For example, the simultaneous possession rule seems to apply. But then it appears this particular catch does not meet some of that criteria; hence, the enormous outcry from fans. It seems Jennings made the first touch with both hands and tucked it to his chest. Tate tried to apprehend the ball, but was only able to really get an arm around it. Tate was riding the ball and Jennings to the turf. It looked simultaneous from a couple different angles, but there is one angle where it is clear that Jennings was in control and Tate's involvement was only to dislodge the ball if it were possible to do so. So it seems to me, this rule does not directly apply. So are we taking bits and pieces of different rules and applying them to eliminate gray areas? And ultimately, doesn't this come down to the call on the field (that's what the NFL said). But even that is complicated by the fact, the refs didn't agree and failed to confer.

What a mess! The NFL was wrong not to overturn this in my opinion, because it only hurts the integrity of the game.

[Craig Laughlin]

Guys, help me out here. I'm hearing of different rules applied to this one catch. For example, the simultaneous possession rule seems to apply. But then it appears this particular catch does not meet some of that criteria; hence, the enormous outcry from fans. It seems Jennings made the first touch with both hands and tucked it to his chest. Tate tried to apprehend the ball, but was only able to really get an arm around it. Tate was riding the ball and Jennings to the turf. It looked simultaneous from a couple different angles, but there is one angle where it is clear that Jennings was in control and Tate's involvement was only to dislodge the ball if it were possible to do so. So it seems to me, this rule does not directly apply. So are we taking bits and pieces of different rules and applying them to eliminate gray areas? And ultimately, doesn't this come down to the call on the field (that's what the NFL said). But even that is complicated by the fact, the refs didn't agree and failed to confer.

What a mess! The NFL was wrong not to overturn this in my opinion, because it only hurts the integrity of the game.

Exactly! We asked (basically) high school refs to sort all that out in their head and make a call in about 2.5 seconds while the whole nation is watching. Frankly, this would have been a hard call for the regular refs to sort out. But, more than likely they would have picked up the interference call making it all mute. Of course, before Green Bay fans go crazy, they also probably would have called some things differently on Green Bays touchdown drive that probably would have caused it to end without the touchdown...

So Green Bay says reverse the last bad call... we win, so we got cheated. Seattle says - reverse all the bad calls, we win, so what is the big deal?

Besides the best part of the game was the number of sacks. Anybody think Green Bay is all that good given the first half? Or is Seattle just that good? But for some bad calls they very well might have held GB's super charged offense to two field goals.

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

Cheer up everyone, we'll be back to complaining about the real refs in no time at all! I see that they are making noise about arriving at a solution that will put the real zebras back on the field, maybe this weekend.

[Craig Laughlin]

Cheer up everyone, we'll be back to complaining about the real refs in no time at all! I see that they are making noise about arriving at a solution that will put the real zebras back on the field, maybe this weekend.

Beside, this is helping us Americans move toward real football (soccer) where half the fun is complaining about the calls.

[Benjamin Burch]

Exactly! We asked (basically) high school refs to sort all that out in their head and make a call in about 2.5 seconds while the whole nation is watching. Frankly, this would have been a hard call for the regular refs to sort out. But, more than likely they would have picked up the interference call making it all mute. Of course, before Green Bay fans go crazy, they also probably would have called some things differently on Green Bays touchdown drive that probably would have caused it to end without the touchdown...

So Green Bay says reverse the last bad call... we win, so we got cheated. Seattle says - reverse all the bad calls, we win, so what is the big deal?

Besides the best part of the game was the number of sacks. Anybody think Green Bay is all that good given the first half? Or is Seattle just that good? But for some bad calls they very well might have held GB's super charged offense to two field goals.

Seattle's defense is that good. They showed potential last year, have the most well rounded safety duo I the NFL and have crushed all the offenses they have faced so far. They are for real.

[Michael Flowers]

And according to Yahoo! Sports a deal has been reached between the NFL and Ref Association.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-sh...5580--nfl.html

[Michael Flowers]

Seattle's defense is that good. They showed potential last year, have the most well rounded safety duo I the NFL and have crushed all the offenses they have faced so far. They are for real.

I agree with their defense being that good. The downfall of last year's team was offense, the defense did its job for the most part. This year again the defense is strong and is just waiting for the offense to find its rhythm.

[Bob Hunter]

Why did the replacement refs have to come back for tonight's game? I was hoping they would give Cleveland a win, just like they did Seattle! What other hope is there for a 0-3 team?

[Craig Laughlin]

Why did the replacement refs have to come back for tonight's game? I was hoping they would give Cleveland a win, just like they did Seattle! What other hope is there for a 0-3 team?

Hey.... Let's watch the Seattle jokes! You might move back to the Northwest someday!

[Michael Flowers]

Why did the replacement refs have to come back for tonight's game? I was hoping they would give Cleveland a win, just like they did Seattle! What other hope is there for a 0-3 team?

Wait, Cleveland still has a team playing in the NFL? I thought for sure they would have switched to the Canadian league this year. (and for the record, I am joking)

[Bob Hunter]

Wait, Cleveland still has a team playing in the NFL? I thought for sure they would have switched to the Canadian league this year. (and for the record, I am joking)

Haha, now can I punch you in the face?

Seriously, I am used to the abuse. Just don't mention the year 1995 around me, I might throw up.

[Ryan Plott]

Why did the replacement refs have to come back for tonight's game? I was hoping they would give Cleveland a win, just like they did Seattle! What other hope is there for a 0-3 team?

There doing alright so far, but I am cheering for my Ravens.

[Michael Flowers]

Haha, now can I punch you in the face?

Seriously, I am used to the abuse. Just don't mention the year 1995 around me, I might throw up.

1995 was a great year for baseball as the Seattle Mariners stepped into prominence and remained there for the next 8 years.