how does the church prepare for decentralizing?

[Sarah Smith]

We are experiencing decentralizing in our school systems in the area.

More and more parents are opting for private school, or homeschooling, or the plethora of on-line options.

Kids get together in 4H, Little Britches Rodeo, church activities, and various other clubs.

Teachers and school systems are actively planning for how the information age is going to decentralize education. They are being told they can prepare and use the information technology, or not prepare and wind up coming to empty buildings with no students left to teach.

I can see this could (maybe will) happen to the church.

We honestly don't have to have worship services on Sunday in order to worship. We can get our information other than face to face. A lot in our area already opt out of the music portion of services, choosing their own Christian music and downloading that. We can be the Body to each other in other ways than formal services.

I'm suspecting we can not look at the issue and wind up going to an empty building some Sunday, or we can find the best ways to utilize technology and decentralize.

Your thoughts on how, when, and why or why not?

[Paul DeBaufer]

What is missing from homeschooling and on-line schooling is the very beneficial socialization that occurs alongside academic education. Sure there are groups and activities you can put kids in to make up for some of it, but won't have the full effect or benefit.

Corporate worship is how we were designed, created. Sure some will forsake the fellowship of believers, many do now. But is that truly worship, to sit alone in front of your TV or monitor? For church to move to virtual gathering would be a wrong move. Virtual gathering through streaming video in real time would benefit shut-ins but should not be the main.

[Sarah Smith]

Paul, from what I'm seeing the opting out of public school kids are getting every bit as much socialization as the local school kids, maybe more since they are not spending time in regimented rows looking forward.

Decentralized worship isn't necessarily sitting in front of your computer screen or tv, either. Rather than reading a quarterly for SS, then getting together in a brick and mortar church to discuss it, here some are reading the lessons on-line, doing some deeper digging on their own through the web or through extension learning or old fashioned paper books, then getting together maybe over a meal or service project and continuing the discussion face to face.

As to worship, those that resonate best with the music portion might be getting together other than 11:00 Sunday morning for extended time of praise and worship or hymn singing/playing. Those that resonate best with the sermon portion and want more than their local church offers may be already getting more sermons on line than off.

I don't disagree that we are meant to worship "corporately." But with todays flow of information, I suspect that may be going to look very different than it did say 50 years ago. We may be "getting together" through electronic media more, and doing other stuff than what we do now during that time we are together in flesh and blood.

There was a time, at least here in the USA, when most were illiterate farm people. It made sense to meet late Sunday morning, after milking and egg gathering and feeding, etc and after mama had a chance to put the proverbial roast in the oven. Stores and shops were closed on Sundays, meaning just about everyone who wanted to be there could be there. I would venture to say the teaching, preaching, and singing had a different cachet and to some extent methods then. (Lining out, for example.)

We didn't toss literacy, toss printed media, and all refuse to move to the city. (Just some of us like me on the city part We learned ways to see those changes in the wider culture as tools and blessings.

Now we face some different challenges. How do we use these new things as tools and blessings.

They won't go away, and not everyone is now free on Sundays.

How much and how do we adapt and how much and how do we refuse to do so?

[Steven Burton]

I hate to say but most home schoolers I know have very hard times in social situation. I know coming from being home schooled for a little while going to public school was a huge transition and I would say I would have rather been in public school most my life than any home school or private school.

[Eric Frey]

Decentralized worship isn't necessarily sitting in front of your computer screen or tv, either. Rather than reading a quarterly for SS, then getting together in a brick and mortar church to discuss it, here some are reading the lessons on-line, doing some deeper digging on their own through the web or through extension learning or old fashioned paper books, then getting together maybe over a meal or service project and continuing the discussion face to face.

This is not worship.

As to worship, those that resonate best with the music portion might be getting together other than 11:00 Sunday morning for extended time of praise and worship or hymn singing/playing. Those that resonate best with the sermon portion and want more than their local church offers may be already getting more sermons on line than off.

This is really straining the definition of worship

I don't disagree that we are meant to worship "corporately." But with todays flow of information, I suspect that may be going to look very different than it did say 50 years ago. We may be "getting together" through electronic media more, and doing other stuff than what we do now during that time we are together in flesh and blood.

Without this, there is no Christian worship. Much has changed in the world and in the church; in good ways and in bad ways. But some things have not. Worship is about flesh and blood presence. It is the church gathering together in flesh and blood and it is Christ being present to the church in flesh and blood. No matter what can be done with music or proclamation of scripture, the Elder cannot receive the gifts of the people, and bless them, and break them, and give them if the church is not physically present. The Elder cannot receive this bread and this wine and consecrate them and serve the people if the people are not present.

There was a time, at least here in the USA, when most were illiterate farm people. It made sense to meet late Sunday morning, after milking and egg gathering and feeding, etc and after mama had a chance to put the proverbial roast in the oven. Stores and shops were closed on Sundays, meaning just about everyone who wanted to be there could be there. I would venture to say the teaching, preaching, and singing had a different cachet and to some extent methods then. (Lining out, for example.)

We didn't toss literacy, toss printed media, and all refuse to move to the city. (Just some of us like me on the city part We learned ways to see those changes in the wider culture as tools and blessings.

Now we face some different challenges. How do we use these new things as tools and blessings.

They won't go away, and not everyone is now free on Sundays.

How much and how do we adapt and how much and how do we refuse to do so?

See above... worship is more than teaching and preaching and singing. Those things probably can be decentralized, but healthy worship (ie a healthy sacramental life) requires presence.

I do think that the teaching/disciplemaking/evangelism ministries of the church will need to be de-centralized, but for the body to be the body it has to remain centered on flesh and blood worship.

[Greg Crofford]

Eric:

I'm all with you on this! Worship is about physical presence. In fact, as you know, that is one of the key ideas when speaking of the Lord's Supper.

One of the popular books that has worn well over time is John Naisbitt's Megatrends. It was required reading for the course, "Living Issues," taught back at ENC in the early 80s. Honestly, I don't remember a lot about the book, but I do remember him using the expression "high tech, high touch." His thought was that even as our society becomes more and more enamored with technology - more "high tech" - there will always be a need for physical contact. At a church worship service, we can give a friend a hug, put a re-assuring hand on someone's shoulder, shake hands with a visitor. All of these very simple, very human gestures cannot be replaced over the internet via YouTube or any streaming technology. Even clicking the "like" button here on NazNet or FaceBook is a poor substitute.

We will always need face-to-face, at least in some measure, in the local church: "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us..." (John 1:14)

[Craig Laughlin]

Really good question Sarah,

One of the trends in mega churches is toward "remote campus" which is a form of decentralization allowing the remote locations to meet in relatively smaller groups (few hundred as opposed to several thousand) and yet benefit from the quality that a mega church has to offer. In a recent visit to a rapidly growing mega church in my area they stated that there plan was not to grow the main campus anymore but believing that church should happen in community they were going to give their energy and resources to remote locations. (They planted 5 of them that Sunday)

I have also wondered if there will not be some sort of trend this way with home groups. It would be possible for a home group to meet, sing, share and then download the sermon for that Sunday. This would be the ultimate freedom and decentralization.

Like many I would struggle with a purely cyber experience but I think the questions you are asking are spot on and we need to be asking them and reflecting on them both from a theoretical and applied perspective. Let's not do what the church normally does, wait until the trend is solidly in place, then criticize what we don't' understand, then adapt a couple of decades to late. It would be nice if we could lead rather than grudgingly follow or more precisely, be drug along.

[Billy Cox]

One of the trends in mega churches is toward "remote campus" which is a form of decentralization allowing the remote locations to meet in relatively smaller groups (few hundred as opposed to several thousand) and yet benefit from the quality that a mega church has to offer. In a recent visit to a rapidly growing mega church in my area they stated that there plan was not to grow the main campus anymore but believing that church should happen in community they were going to give their energy and resources to remote locations. (They planted 5 of them that Sunday)

I don't see the remote campus as a form of decentralization. Remote campus 'extends' influence. Decentralization 'distributes' influence. Remote campus is more spider than starfish. (see the Wikipedia article for more on this metaphor)

[Mike Smiley]

Paul, from what I'm seeing the opting out of public school kids are getting every bit as much socialization as the local school kids, maybe more since they are not spending time in regimented rows looking forward.

Decentralized worship isn't necessarily sitting in front of your computer screen or tv, either. Rather than reading a quarterly for SS, then getting together in a brick and mortar church to discuss it, here some are reading the lessons on-line, doing some deeper digging on their own through the web or through extension learning or old fashioned paper books, then getting together maybe over a meal or service project and continuing the discussion face to face.

As to worship, those that resonate best with the music portion might be getting together other than 11:00 Sunday morning for extended time of praise and worship or hymn singing/playing. Those that resonate best with the sermon portion and want more than their local church offers may be already getting more sermons on line than off.

I don't disagree that we are meant to worship "corporately." But with todays flow of information, I suspect that may be going to look very different than it did say 50 years ago. We may be "getting together" through electronic media more, and doing other stuff than what we do now during that time we are together in flesh and blood.

There was a time, at least here in the USA, when most were illiterate farm people. It made sense to meet late Sunday morning, after milking and egg gathering and feeding, etc and after mama had a chance to put the proverbial roast in the oven. Stores and shops were closed on Sundays, meaning just about everyone who wanted to be there could be there. I would venture to say the teaching, preaching, and singing had a different cachet and to some extent methods then. (Lining out, for example.)

We didn't toss literacy, toss printed media, and all refuse to move to the city. (Just some of us like me on the city part We learned ways to see those changes in the wider culture as tools and blessings.

Now we face some different challenges. How do we use these new things as tools and blessings.

They won't go away, and not everyone is now free on Sundays.

How much and how do we adapt and how much and how do we refuse to do so?

There was a time here in the USA when most were illiterate farm people. ......Ouch ouch ouch. How many literate people could farm today?

[Craig Laughlin]

I don't see the remote campus as a form of decentralization. Remote campus 'extends' influence. Decentralization 'distributes' influence. Remote campus is more spider than starfish. (see the Wikipedia article for more on this metaphor)

Good article. - I would agree (depending a little on how it is done) that the remote location is more of a spider than a starfish but still represents movement toward a "less centralized" (can I nuance or what! ) organizational structure. I think this is probably also reflected in the fact that, at least the churches that are doing this out here, are almost exclusively independent and have a much flatter way of thinking about organizational structures in general. (This may well be because they are often led by people who are under 40)

[Benjamin Burch]

This is not worship.



This is really straining the definition of worship



Without this, there is no Christian worship. Much has changed in the world and in the church; in good ways and in bad ways. But some things have not. Worship is about flesh and blood presence. It is the church gathering together in flesh and blood and it is Christ being present to the church in flesh and blood. No matter what can be done with music or proclamation of scripture, the Elder cannot receive the gifts of the people, and bless them, and break them, and give them if the church is not physically present. The Elder cannot receive this bread and this wine and consecrate them and serve the people if the people are not present.



See above... worship is more than teaching and preaching and singing. Those things probably can be decentralized, but healthy worship (ie a healthy sacramental life) requires presence.

I do think that the teaching/disciplemaking/evangelism ministries of the church will need to be de-centralized, but for the body to be the body it has to remain centered on flesh and blood worship.

(sighs and nods head)

[Billy Cox]

There was a time here in the USA when most were illiterate farm people. ......Ouch ouch ouch. How many literate people could farm today?

I daresay that those who are farming today are literate, have a fair appreciation for automation technology, and understand how commodities markets work. On top of that, they run multi-million dollar businesses. Farming is no longer a Jed Clampett enterprise.

[Craig Laughlin]

I daresay that those who are farming today are literate, have a fair appreciation for automation technology, and understand how commodities markets work. On top of that, they run multi-million dollar businesses. Farming is no longer a Jed Clampett enterprise.

Lots have MBA's

[Pete Vecchi]

I hate to say but most home schoolers I know have very hard times in social situation. I know coming from being home schooled for a little while going to public school was a huge transition and I would say I would have rather been in public school most my life than any home school or private school.

I know that this thread is asking about worship rather than commenting about home school, but I need to comment about home school.

Home schooling is not for everyone, but it is a superior option for some. Between our three children, we have experienced public schooling, home schooling, and Christian schooling. Our eldest son was home schooled the longest, and it bar far was the superior choice for him. In order for home schooling to work, the student and the parent(s) must have the temperament and personality for it. Our eldest son excelled to the point that he was taking community college courses during his senior year in high school, and had attained his firefighter and EMT certifications from college about the same time he graduated home school high school. He just had to wait to get a job as a firefighter/EMT the approximately 3 months more it took until he turned 18.

Our middle son was the social butterfly. He thrived in the Christian school setting, and this past May graduated from Mount Vernon Nazarene University. He would not have done nearly in well in school as he did had he attended the public schools. His Christian schooling helped reinforce the Christian values we instilled in him at home and that he was taught at church.

Our daughter has gone mainly through Christian schooling, and had 2 years of home school. Overall, Christian school has been best for her. She is currently in her senior year in Christian high school.

The whole socialization argument for public schools just doesn't wash for me. I will admit that there are indeed some home schooled children who are socially awkward, but there are also public and Christian schooled children who are socially awkward (I am thinking of a couple of such public school children right now whom I know personally).

The bottom line is that there is no one RIGHT answer. But based on my experiences, I would recommend the Christian school or home school option over public schools--especially in this day and age in this U.S. culture. Some may think that public school is the best option for their children, and I would not argue with them, so long as they reached that decision prayerfully (as I would hope they would reach the decision for any other education option).

[Susan Unger]

Corporate worship is how we were designed, created. Sure some will forsake the fellowship of believers, many do now. But is that truly worship, to sit alone in front of your TV or monitor? For church to move to virtual gathering would be a wrong move. Virtual gathering through streaming video in real time would benefit shut-ins but should not be the main.

Agreed. My church became more decentalized the last decade and IMHO, it has led to a decreased sense of worship, love and community.

[Steven Burton]

I know that this thread is asking about worship rather than commenting about home school, but I need to comment about home school.

Home schooling is not for everyone, but it is a superior option for some. Between our three children, we have experienced public schooling, home schooling, and Christian schooling. Our eldest son was home schooled the longest, and it bar far was the superior choice for him. In order for home schooling to work, the student and the parent(s) must have the temperament and personality for it. Our eldest son excelled to the point that he was taking community college courses during his senior year in high school, and had attained his firefighter and EMT certifications from college about the same time he graduated home school high school. He just had to wait to get a job as a firefighter/EMT the approximately 3 months more it took until he turned 18.

Our middle son was the social butterfly. He thrived in the Christian school setting, and this past May graduated from Mount Vernon Nazarene University. He would not have done nearly in well in school as he did had he attended the public schools. His Christian schooling helped reinforce the Christian values we instilled in him at home and that he was taught at church.

Our daughter has gone mainly through Christian schooling, and had 2 years of home school. Overall, Christian school has been best for her. She is currently in her senior year in Christian high school.

The whole socialization argument for public schools just doesn't wash for me. I will admit that there are indeed some home schooled children who are socially awkward, but there are also public and Christian schooled children who are socially awkward (I am thinking of a couple of such public school children right now whom I know personally).

The bottom line is that there is no one RIGHT answer. But based on my experiences, I would recommend the Christian school or home school option over public schools--especially in this day and age in this U.S. culture. Some may think that public school is the best option for their children, and I would not argue with them, so long as they reached that decision prayerfully (as I would hope they would reach the decision for any other education option).

May I ask how well they do in social situation that do not benefit them? Because that was the thought behind my comment. The taking from social situations and putting into less social or inclusion situations. While I see the benefits of learning scholastic in private and home school I do not see the benefit of social situations that those provide.

Also Decentralization is not necessarily a bad thing unless it is taken to some of the extremes talked about in this thread. I can tell you that due to my anxiety I have a very hard time in churches (pretty much just sit there waiting for a panic attack). I also have a hard time in a large communities so the providence of online sermons is very beneficial to me. But to decentralize the community that you form with these churches is not in the best interest of the whole.

[Craig Laughlin]

The bottom line is that there is no one RIGHT answer.

Yep.

My daughter went one of those schools that evangelicals tell "boggy man" stories about. (1st through 12th) It was an urban, very rough. (guns at school every year, bomb threat almost every year, monthly drug sniffing dogs... etc) My son went K through 8th then switched to a very affluent, very safe public school. They both are top notch academically (Highest academic scholarships available at our Nazarene schools) We taught them from the very beginning that they were missionaries to the kids around them which I think was a valuable even important lesson. (In both schools with my son)

As to socialization I think the concern is home schooled and to a lesser extent Christian school kids do not have to deal with much diversity. (Not just racially but culturally and religiously as well) I can only say that the huge diversity in which my children grew up deeply enriched their lives and sharpened their cultural Q. In an increasingly diverse world (in every sense of the word) I think this was a very important part of their education.

FYI - that no good rotten urban school my kids went to... the year before my daughter graduated two students scored perfect ACT scores. (not many good schools can say that) My daughter and her friends were in the 30's

[Steven Burton]

Yep.

My daughter went one of those schools that evangelicals tell "boggy man" stories about. (1st through 12th) It was an urban, very rough. (guns at school every year, bomb threat almost every year, monthly drug sniffing dogs... etc) My son went K through 8th then switched to a very affluent, very safe public school. They both are top notch academically (Highest academic scholarships available at our Nazarene schools) We taught them from the very beginning that they were missionaries to the kids around them which I think was a valuable even important lesson. (In both schools with my son)

As to socialization I think the concern is home schooled and to a lesser extent Christian school kids do not have to deal with much diversity. (Not just racially but culturally and religiously as well) I can only say that the huge diversity in which my children grew up deeply enriched their lives and sharpened their cultural Q. In an increasingly diverse world (in every sense of the word) I think this was a very important part of their education.

FYI - that no good rotten urban school my kids went to... the year before my daughter graduated two students scored perfect ACT scores. (not many good schools can say that) My daughter and her friends were in the 30's

Thank you for explaining my thought more thoroughly and better said.