something that occurred to me tonight

[Jim Chabot]

Todd, just be glad I don't start creating threads with the things I come up with at night.

Hey Steven, how is your leg doing. It's been a while, I hope that it's fully mended.

[Amanda Hope]

This thread reminds me of when I first started getting interested in environmental issues in college: the intense backlash I received from some Christians was surprising to me.....Since then, I've been trying to understand the thinking behind such strong and often negative reactions to proposed changes (using less water, meat, etc.). So this thread has been somewhat illuminating in that regard.

At any rate, I do not really feel qualified to argue the manual or theology . I would just like to share my personal experience. I am convicted that my everyday actions, including my consumption/use of various goods, are vital to my walk with Christ as a Christian. I believe this conviction is from the Holy Spirit, not the devil. I believe this because my actions and choices are out of love for other people and align with what I read in the Bible about loving justice and mercy.

For example, I try to limit my purchase of cotton. I do this because cotton takes a lot of pesticides and water to produce (the amount of water required to produce a shirt is approximately as much as one person would drink in 3 years).

What really drove this point home for me was a graduate class where we studied the Aral Sea region. We read articles from Nature and from Science (2 of the most well respected scientific journals) about how the sea has been dried up due to irrigation for cotton. I saw pictures of people who no longer had fish to eat or water to drink, and who had cancer because the wind constantly blows the salty dust from the exposed lake bottom all over the people. My heart was moved with compassion for these people.

Granted, the Aral Sea problem is a complex issue. Much of the cotton production that dried the sea was done for Russia in the 60's. However, I know that Uzbekistan is currently one of the world's largest cotton producers and it borders the Aral Sea. This leads me to think that some of the cotton I buy may be produced with water from the Aral Sea. Also I started looking at labels on towels, etc. Most of the towels I saw seemed to have cotton from that region of the world.

So now I have old, faded towels and sheets. But they are still clean and they work. My love for other people, which comes from God, leads me to delay as long as possible buying new towels/clothing that led to someone getting sprayed with pesticides, having no food or water, and getting painful cancer without any access to the medical treatment that we Americans have. Those pictures are still in my head, and those are my neighbors.

Even if the cotton I buy didn't directly hurt those people, I have a hard time convincing myself it is fair for me to buy a towel or shirt representing 3 years worth of drinking water when so many people struggle for water.

At any rate, I realize I can buy bamboo or fair trade cotton products. I have bought some. But the graduate school thing limited my budget I will probably buy towels again and shirts too, but the point is I just try to limit it out of love for others.

I have found that the less I consume, watch ads, or visit stores, the less painful it becomes to not purchase things I want that might be bad for people or God's earth. I find it much easier to ignore products I never come in contact with, then I do to ignore the fact that American consumption is both a systemic evil in which I take part and a personal evil/temptation that I sometimes give in to.

Do I choose to love Christ and others by avoiding the systemic evil through limiting my purchases or making more sustainable purchases? Or do I choose to ignore what I know, suspect, or could research regarding the product to appease my personal wants? It is extremely hard to act in the most loving manner possible with our purchases all the time. But if everybody on Naznet made one change in their consumption every month, just imagine the impact we could have!

[Jon Bemis]

I am convicted that my everyday actions, including my consumption/use of various goods, are vital to my walk with Christ as a Christian. I believe this conviction is from the Holy Spirit, not the devil. I believe this because my actions and choices are out of love for other people and align with what I read in the Bible about loving justice and mercy.

Amanda,

Although you said that you "do not really feel qualified to argue the manual or theology," IMO you've done a great job reminding us that it is love for God and love for others that should drive our every day actions and choices. Which also reminds me that all of us fall short of perfectly doing this all the time which is why we always are in need of grace and mercy.

[Cynthia Prentice]

This thread reminds me of when I first started getting interested in environmental issues in college: the intense backlash I received from some Christians was surprising to me.....Since then, I've been trying to understand the thinking behind such strong and often negative reactions to proposed changes (using less water, meat, etc.). So this thread has been somewhat illuminating in that regard.

At any rate, I do not really feel qualified to argue the manual or theology . I would just like to share my personal experience. I am convicted that my everyday actions, including my consumption/use of various goods, are vital to my walk with Christ as a Christian. I believe this conviction is from the Holy Spirit, not the devil. I believe this because my actions and choices are out of love for other people and align with what I read in the Bible about loving justice and mercy.

For example, I try to limit my purchase of cotton. I do this because cotton takes a lot of pesticides and water to produce (the amount of water required to produce a shirt is approximately as much as one person would drink in 3 years).

What really drove this point home for me was a graduate class where we studied the Aral Sea region. We read articles from Nature and from Science (2 of the most well respected scientific journals) about how the sea has been dried up due to irrigation for cotton. I saw pictures of people who no longer had fish to eat or water to drink, and who had cancer because the wind constantly blows the salty dust from the exposed lake bottom all over the people. My heart was moved with compassion for these people.

Granted, the Aral Sea problem is a complex issue. Much of the cotton production that dried the sea was done for Russia in the 60's. However, I know that Uzbekistan is currently one of the world's largest cotton producers and it borders the Aral Sea. This leads me to think that some of the cotton I buy may be produced with water from the Aral Sea. Also I started looking at labels on towels, etc. Most of the towels I saw seemed to have cotton from that region of the world.

So now I have old, faded towels and sheets. But they are still clean and they work. My love for other people, which comes from God, leads me to delay as long as possible buying new towels/clothing that led to someone getting sprayed with pesticides, having no food or water, and getting painful cancer without any access to the medical treatment that we Americans have. Those pictures are still in my head, and those are my neighbors.

Even if the cotton I buy didn't directly hurt those people, I have a hard time convincing myself it is fair for me to buy a towel or shirt representing 3 years worth of drinking water when so many people struggle for water.

At any rate, I realize I can buy bamboo or fair trade cotton products. I have bought some. But the graduate school thing limited my budget I will probably buy towels again and shirts too, but the point is I just try to limit it out of love for others.

I have found that the less I consume, watch ads, or visit stores, the less painful it becomes to not purchase things I want that might be bad for people or God's earth. I find it much easier to ignore products I never come in contact with, then I do to ignore the fact that American consumption is both a systemic evil in which I take part and a personal evil/temptation that I sometimes give in to.

Do I choose to love Christ and others by avoiding the systemic evil through limiting my purchases or making more sustainable purchases? Or do I choose to ignore what I know, suspect, or could research regarding the product to appease my personal wants? It is extremely hard to act in the most loving manner possible with our purchases all the time. But if everybody on Naznet made one change in their consumption every month, just imagine the impact we could have!

Hi Amanda,

You may be able to get some new things. Walmart has multiple items that are organic cotton. I didn't know if you had heard about this but just in case I wanted to let you know.

[Sarah Smith]

Good debate.

I have only a few thoughts.

As to 6 verses on the gay matter and 3000 on the poor: first off, the number of verses on a topic do not negate its importance. There are not many verses re not marrying your biological sister, but the ban still stands.

As to why the church harps on this so much, my take is push back. Never heard it preached about at all until the push for "gay rights" began. I guarantee you if someone came into "the church" and started raising a ruckus wanting to be accepted while practicing incest you would suddenly find "the church" preaching mightily on the sin of incest.

As to the issue of is being actively gay a sin or something one is born with, all I can say is Jesus healed the man born blind. Didn't tell him "God doesn't make any junk, so just go on and be who you are." Obviously not all born blind are healed. In the same way, if there is indeed a biological component, not all will be healed from the temptation.

BUT as holiness people we hold out that God can give the strength not to yield, and may indeed if He so chooses remove the tendancy.

As to how we treat the poor, I believe the NT relieves us of the necessity to ask questions in the marketplace for conscience sake.

That said, we practice voluntary simplicity and have since the '70's. I need 100% cotton clothing for health reasons and do not worry about buying it. I don't look for all organic or special stuff. What I do look for is high quality and classic styling. That means I can still be wearing skirts from the '90's, have jeans from around 2000, and seldom have to buy clothing. We are both oddball sizes but still buy used as much as possible. This allows us to not worry when we do make a purchase, as we make them so seldom.

We do truly try to use discernment and help the poor, but in ways that actually help THEM rather than make me feel pious.

Now, all that background stuff out of the way, I think the original post in this thread falls quite unintentionally into the tendancy to want to remove the splinter in another's eye rather than remove the beam in our own. In no way do I think Todd is trying to do so. What I am saying is that we these days, when we see a rule in black and white and don't like it, want to redefine morallity.

How often do I hear someone say they won't stop shacking up as long as the "christians" feel free to drive gas guzzlers.

Or someone else say they won't even discuss not doing drugs until the "christians" stop being materialistic gluttons.

Take your pick of any two sins and fill in the blank.

I believe if I am personally sinning, deliberately breaking one of God's laws, pointing out how my neighbor is sinning a different sin, and maybe so much more sin happening than I do, IN NO WAY negates my own guilt.

Not a popular view these days, though.

[Paul DeBaufer]

This thread reminds me of when I first started getting interested in environmental issues in college: the intense backlash I received from some Christians was surprising to me.....Since then, I've been trying to understand the thinking behind such strong and often negative reactions to proposed changes (using less water, meat, etc.). So this thread has been somewhat illuminating in that regard.

At any rate, I do not really feel qualified to argue the manual or theology . I would just like to share my personal experience. I am convicted that my everyday actions, including my consumption/use of various goods, are vital to my walk with Christ as a Christian. I believe this conviction is from the Holy Spirit, not the devil. I believe this because my actions and choices are out of love for other people and align with what I read in the Bible about loving justice and mercy.

For example, I try to limit my purchase of cotton. I do this because cotton takes a lot of pesticides and water to produce (the amount of water required to produce a shirt is approximately as much as one person would drink in 3 years).

What really drove this point home for me was a graduate class where we studied the Aral Sea region. We read articles from Nature and from Science (2 of the most well respected scientific journals) about how the sea has been dried up due to irrigation for cotton. I saw pictures of people who no longer had fish to eat or water to drink, and who had cancer because the wind constantly blows the salty dust from the exposed lake bottom all over the people. My heart was moved with compassion for these people.

Granted, the Aral Sea problem is a complex issue. Much of the cotton production that dried the sea was done for Russia in the 60's. However, I know that Uzbekistan is currently one of the world's largest cotton producers and it borders the Aral Sea. This leads me to think that some of the cotton I buy may be produced with water from the Aral Sea. Also I started looking at labels on towels, etc. Most of the towels I saw seemed to have cotton from that region of the world.

So now I have old, faded towels and sheets. But they are still clean and they work. My love for other people, which comes from God, leads me to delay as long as possible buying new towels/clothing that led to someone getting sprayed with pesticides, having no food or water, and getting painful cancer without any access to the medical treatment that we Americans have. Those pictures are still in my head, and those are my neighbors.

Even if the cotton I buy didn't directly hurt those people, I have a hard time convincing myself it is fair for me to buy a towel or shirt representing 3 years worth of drinking water when so many people struggle for water.

At any rate, I realize I can buy bamboo or fair trade cotton products. I have bought some. But the graduate school thing limited my budget I will probably buy towels again and shirts too, but the point is I just try to limit it out of love for others.

I have found that the less I consume, watch ads, or visit stores, the less painful it becomes to not purchase things I want that might be bad for people or God's earth. I find it much easier to ignore products I never come in contact with, then I do to ignore the fact that American consumption is both a systemic evil in which I take part and a personal evil/temptation that I sometimes give in to.

Do I choose to love Christ and others by avoiding the systemic evil through limiting my purchases or making more sustainable purchases? Or do I choose to ignore what I know, suspect, or could research regarding the product to appease my personal wants? It is extremely hard to act in the most loving manner possible with our purchases all the time. But if everybody on Naznet made one change in their consumption every month, just imagine the impact we could have!

Thank you Amanda. Thank you thank you thank you!

I think that through your point that you act out of conviction from the Holy Spirit, who leads us not through guilt but through the desire to do that which we ought. Jim may have a point that the trying to guilt another out of sin or into action just may be the voice of the accuser.

[Steven Burton]

Hey Steven, how is your leg doing. It's been a while, I hope that it's fully mended.

The leg is fully mended. I do get occasional pain around the area and ankle from time to time but that is pretty normal. I can say though I am not looking forward to the winter months though as it sometimes increases the frequency of the pain.

[Billy Cox]

This thread reminds me of when I first started getting interested in environmental issues in college: the intense backlash I received from some Christians was surprising to me.....Since then, I've been trying to understand the thinking behind such strong and often negative reactions to proposed changes (using less water, meat, etc.). So this thread has been somewhat illuminating in that regard.

Over the years, I have sometimes been taken aback when Christians responded to something I have said far out of proportion to what I actually said (or intended to say). I have come to understand that people look for external cues as to who a person is and quickly form a conclusion as to whether they are friend or foe. Sometimes that quick conclusion is wrong.

[Nate Pruitt]

Over the years, I have sometimes been taken aback when Christians responded to something I have said far out of proportion to what I actually said (or intended to say). I have come to understand that people look for external cues as to who a person is and quickly form a conclusion as to whether they are friend or foe. Sometimes that quick conclusion is wrong.

[Insert here: vehement backlash at Billy's post because I don't care for his avatar.]

It is amazing how a single word, or a simple phrase can be a trigger to a response that has nothing to do with the way in which it was used. I've seen this in church settings time and again. Once with a young woman who was raised Baptist but now gladly participates at our Nazarene church. She was actually trying to convey something that aligned extremely well with our tradition, but the only words she had to express it were from her ingrained Baptist vernacular. The spirit of what she said was beautiful, but I'm afraid all of that was lost the moment one of our senior members snapped in response to the words. He had barely been conscious at that point, head hung and eyes closed for minutes, but the words he heard (out of context) were long time "fighting words" where he came from and he let her have it! Talk about a sadly inappropriate response.

I'm sure I've done the same at times.

[Gina Stevenson]

Nate, about Billy's avatar ...not sure who it is supposed to be, but reminds me of a certain cereal I never ate (saw the box a lot, tho, b/c my sister liked Captain Crunch).

[Jim Chabot]

The leg is fully mended. I do get occasional pain around the area and ankle from time to time but that is pretty normal. I can say though I am not looking forward to the winter months though as it sometimes increases the frequency of the pain.

Sorry to hear that there is residual pain. My son suffered a jaw broken in three places and mended with a steel plate a few years back. He still has some pain from time to time, and I'm fearful that it will grow worse when he gets older. I come close to crying on the odd occasions when I see him wince and remember why.

Sure hope that my fears are unfounded and that your pain lessens as time goes on.

[Bill Morrison]

[QUOTE=Amanda Hope;164644]This thread reminds me of when I first started getting interested in environmental issues in college: the intense backlash I received from some Christians was surprising to me.....,

I certainly know how you feel.
You ought to try teaching an Environmental Science course at a conservative Christian school as I have done off and on for 30+ years.
Some students just plain don't like hearing any of that "liberal, tree-hugging stuff".
And I consider myself rather conservative on most issues!

BILL

[Nate Pruitt]

I certainly know how you feel.
You ought to try teaching an Environmental Science course at a conservative Christian school as I have done off and on for 30+ years.
Some students just plain don't like hearing any of that "liberal, tree-hugging stuff".
And I consider myself rather conservative on most issues!

BILL

I wonder if being out West in a state where they're more accepting of those "liberal, tree-hugging" ideas helps Michael Lodahl. I really wonder. Of course I'm sure he has some rather "concerned" active watchers of all he does and says.

[Benjamin Burch]

I wonder if being out West in a state where they're more accepting of those "liberal, tree-hugging" ideas helps Michael Lodahl. I really wonder. Of course I'm sure he has some rather "concerned" active watchers of all he does and says.

He's been through a lot at PLNU. the man has had to defend himself and his theology to keep his job a few times. Luckily the man is such a kind, gracious, and loving disciple of Christ that he has made it through. He still gets some grief I hear. No doubt being here in SD and at PLNU in general helps. I've been assigned three different texts in MA courses which were vocally in favor of homosexuality, and allowed to come to my own conclusions. That would never, as far as I know, happen at ONU.

[Benjamin Burch]

He's been through a lot at PLNU. the man has had to defend himself and his theology to keep his job a few times. Luckily the man is such a kind, gracious, and loving disciple of Christ that he has made it through. He still gets some grief I hear. No doubt being here in SD and at PLNU in general helps. I've been assigned three different texts in MA courses which were vocally in favor of homosexuality, and allowed to come to my own conclusions. That would never, as far as I know, happen at ONU.

And Dr. Lodahl would be very unhappy with my commas in the previous post! Lol

[Randy Wise]

There are 6 verses about homosexuality in the bible.

There are 3000 about how we treat the poor.

All of the people who are practicing homosexuals are going to hell whether or not they claim Christ, but those who refuse to practice justice toward the poor for political or other reasons aren't, despite the fact that Christ had a specific parable about this.

So either A. despite having 3000 verses about it, God and Jesus weren't actually serious about the poor, the widows, the orphans, the aliens...

Or we're all going to hell, no matter who we claim as Saviour.

Can somebody explain this to me?

Actually Jesus condensed the 3000 verses into one and expanded the role to all. Love your neighbor as your self.

Now we have a 6 to 1 ratio.

Just thinking this through with your logic.

Randy

[Randy Wise]

Apparently not being 100% perfect all the time in the "Do's" is not as bad as committing the "Don't's"

Randy

[Hans Deventer]

Actually Jesus condensed the 3000 verses into one and expanded the role to all. Love your neighbor as your self.

Now we have a 6 to 1 ratio.

Just thinking this through with your logic.

Randy, to me, this makes no sense at all. Jesus condensed EVERY command into one. So that says nothing whatsoever about the accents that the Bible puts in place. If the Scriptures tell us something by night and day, and as a footnote add, "oh yes, and also don't ......", would you consider both as equal? The Bible doesn't treat all violations of commandments equally, so neither is all sin equal. Some things are punishable by death, others by punishments that are far less severe.

And I've heard the commandment to love as a justification for practising homosexuality, so that doesn't help your case either.

Todd's case is a proper one. And it is very telling how we try to deny the obvious.

[Ian Gentles]

There are 6 verses about homosexuality in the bible.

There are 3000 about how we treat the poor.

All of the people who are practicing homosexuals are going to hell whether or not they claim Christ, but those who refuse to practice justice toward the poor for political or other reasons aren't, despite the fact that Christ had a specific parable about this.

So either A. despite having 3000 verses about it, God and Jesus weren't actually serious about the poor, the widows, the orphans, the aliens...

Or we're all going to hell, no matter who we claim as Saviour.

Can somebody explain this to me?

Maybe its because the teaching on homosexuality is very clear and folks understood it and didnt need it repeating? Reguards how we treat the poor, isnt this not a subject that needs driven home time after time?

[Hans Deventer]

Maybe its because the teaching on homosexuality is very clear and folks understood it and didnt need it repeating? Reguards how we treat the poor, isnt this not a subject that needs driven home time after time?

I'm astonished at the many ways people try to avoid the obvious.

I just can imagine Jesus standing before us on the last day:

31 ‘When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will put the sheep at his right hand and the goats at the left. 34 Then the king will say to those at his right hand, “Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.” 37 Then the righteous will answer him, “Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry and gave you food, or thirsty and gave you something to drink? 38 And when was it that we saw you a stranger and welcomed you, or naked and gave you clothing? 39 And when was it that we saw you sick or in prison and visited you?” 40And the king will answer them, “Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family, you did it to me.” 41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, “You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.” 44 Then they also will answer, “But Lord, we defended orthodox faith! We stood strong for family values, and made sure we condemned all kinds of heresy and also homosexuality, though it seemed all the world embraced it!" Then I will declare to them, “I never knew you; go away from me, you evildoers.”

Or perhaps this is just another instance when Nate would advice me to remain silent

(Italics mine, the last sentence comes from Matthew 7)

[Nate Pruitt]

I'm astonished at the many ways people try to avoid the obvious.

I just can imagine Jesus standing before us on the last day:

31 ‘When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will put the sheep at his right hand and the goats at the left. 34 Then the king will say to those at his right hand, “Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.” 37 Then the righteous will answer him, “Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry and gave you food, or thirsty and gave you something to drink? 38 And when was it that we saw you a stranger and welcomed you, or naked and gave you clothing? 39 And when was it that we saw you sick or in prison and visited you?” 40And the king will answer them, “Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family, you did it to me.” 41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, “You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.” 44 Then they also will answer, “But Lord, we defended orthodox faith! We stood strong for family values, and made sure we condemned all kinds of heresy and also homosexuality, though it seemed all the world embraced it!" Then I will declare to them, “I never knew you; go away from me, you evildoers.”

Or perhaps this is just another instance when Nate would advice me to remain silent

(Italics mine, the last sentence comes from Matthew 7)

It made sense to me, Hans. An excellent point worth pondering. The hope is to not undo it by redoing it too many more times.

[Ian Gentles]

I'm astonished at the many ways people try to avoid the obvious.

I just can imagine Jesus standing before us on the last day:

31 ‘When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will put the sheep at his right hand and the goats at the left. 34 Then the king will say to those at his right hand, “Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.” 37 Then the righteous will answer him, “Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry and gave you food, or thirsty and gave you something to drink? 38 And when was it that we saw you a stranger and welcomed you, or naked and gave you clothing? 39 And when was it that we saw you sick or in prison and visited you?” 40And the king will answer them, “Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family, you did it to me.” 41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, “You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.” 44 Then they also will answer, “But Lord, we defended orthodox faith! We stood strong for family values, and made sure we condemned all kinds of heresy and also homosexuality, though it seemed all the world embraced it!" Then I will declare to them, “I never knew you; go away from me, you evildoers.”

Or perhaps this is just another instance when Nate would advice me to remain silent

(Italics mine, the last sentence comes from Matthew 7)

We are fortunate to be in a church, where we are, that takes social justice very seriously.

[Sarah Smith]

Todd--maybe what you see and what I see differ so because of geography.

For all our failings as Christians in this little town, and they are many I freely admit, folks are FAR more focused on living out the things Jesus taught us than on the gay issue.

We spend FAR MORE time feeding the hungry, taking care of the sick, prison ministry, hospitality, etc than discussing the gay issue.

BUT IF ASKED,yes, we will tell any who ask we hold it to be a sin to engage in it.

Nothing unloving or unChristlike in answering a question honestly.

How often the topic arises? I guess that is up to those that want to disagree.

You generally don't find the awful conservative unloving traditionalists bringing it up. Generally if the topic comes up, it will be from a gay person, someone who loves them (family and friends), and our one uber liberal church.

Since we are convinced and convicted it is a sin, address the issue as seldom as possible, and do all we can for the ones Jesus sent us to minister to, what is the problem?

[Billy Cox]

I've been assigned three different texts in MA courses which were vocally in favor of homosexuality, and allowed to come to my own conclusions. That would never, as far as I know, happen at ONU.

Not more than once at least.

[Marsha Lynn]

Not a popular view these days, though.

Are you serious, Sarah? If so, you aren't living in the right place. I'm pretty sure I heard the "amen corner" in my part of the world erupt with enthusiastic support just from having your post appear on my computer screen. Actually, based on what you have written about your own community, I'm guessing there would not be many voices of dissent if you preached it on a local street corner where you are.

Yours IS the popular view. You're just inserting it in one of the few "Nazarene friendly" places where there is space for differing views on the issue.

[David Graham]

Todd--maybe what you see and what I see differ so because of geography.

For all our failings as Christians in this little town, and they are many I freely admit, folks are FAR more focused on living out the things Jesus taught us than on the gay issue.

We spend FAR MORE time feeding the hungry, taking care of the sick, prison ministry, hospitality, etc than discussing the gay issue.

Yes, this is our experience too.
On a denominational level, we are a moderately conservative Evangelical church in our state, but we are also the denomination with the largest social mission eneterprise in our state. "Blue Care" is in fact the largest non government employer (by far) of people providing medical and general life style support to clients both "in their own homes" and in residential care facilities to needy people in our state. My denomination also runs three hospitals, a disability support agency and a nation wide telephone counselling service for those in distress.

At the same time, our state synod has taken a stand against ordaining practicing homosexuals into the ministry.

On a local level, our church has provided short term accomodation and food support to people in need, while many of our people are volunteers in our local "Blue Care agency", another Christian based private drug rehabilitation agency and in a local aged care facility.

So yes, we are evangelical and deeply committed to a strong social mission within our community.

Do we focus our time discussing issues surrounding homosexuality...... generally not, unless of course it is a matter of national news at that moment, such as when Federal Parliament recently discussed and finally voted down the question of "Gay Marriage".

BUT IF ASKED,yes, we will tell any who ask we hold it to be a sin to engage in it.

Nothing unloving or unChristlike in answering a question honestly.

Yep so do we!

How often the topic arises? I guess that is up to those that want to disagree.

Perhaps, but we are in a rural community and most people in the community believe as we do..... even among our Anglican friends, and on a state level they are not as against the practice of homosexuality as we are.

You generally don't find the awful conservative unloving traditionalists bringing it up. Generally if the topic comes up, it will be from a gay person, someone who loves them (family and friends), and our one uber liberal church.

Again since it seldom comes up as a matter of discussion I'm not sure who instigates it, but it doesn't seem to be a "hobby horse" of anyone in particular.

Since we are convinced and convicted it is a sin, address the issue as seldom as possible, and do all we can for the ones Jesus sent us to minister to, what is the problem?

Yeah, it seems much ado about nothing to us too.

[Jim Chabot]

Apparently not being 100% perfect all the time in the "Do's" is not as bad as committing the "Don't's"

Randy

Good summation Randy. And who is to say just who is and is not compliant in the do's in the first place. Are we not instructed to keep our charitable giving and efforts quiet? And further, as we seek to address this among our brothers and sisters are we not in danger of calling parts of our body worthless. At least that is how I see these efforts at guilting people, telling them that they aren't carrying their weight, accusing them of selfishness. Then again, I'm fully aware of where the voice of guilt is coming from in the first place.

As to the don'ts, there exists a different dynamic. Should one be hiking there may be signs urging the hiker to stay on the marked paths (plural) and yet it may also be specified that one should not go past a certain point where danger exists. So while someone may choose a different path and possibly stray from it from time to time, they will return home with pictures and stories of their adventure. Venturing past a "don't" may yield a different result.

On the whole, I believe this whole conversation to be nothing more than a diversion away from a subject where Todd seemed to be angered that we would have it. From the beginning, I agreed with him that we should do both, and I also reluctantly offered up some of the things that I've been doing in order to establish that I'm not engaging in an either or situation.

Still it remains that we should follow the voice of the Spirit where we are urged to move with compassion toward the unfortunate. And it remains that those who regularly practice the sins enumerated by Paul will not see heaven, and further that some should be excluded from the church as well. It's not all that hard to fathom, unless one disagrees with the message of Scripture. Each doing what is right in their own eyes.

[Todd Erickson]

Little Rock, AR is the worst rated city for care of the homeless in the united states according to numerous organizations that track that sort of thing. But then, it's a poor state.

I know of a town up the road that has the largest Nazarene church in the area, and to be other than a normal white bread Christian there is to be persecuted by the adults and kids, whether you're gay or just goth.

I grew up being mocked and attacked by the teens at church and by the kids at school, which did not stop being an issue until I went to college. My heart goes out strongly to those who are bullied and dismissed in the midst of trying to figure out who they are.

You cannot beat Jesus into people, but that certainly doesn't keep people from trying.

I think that to whatever degree people see themselves as the enemies of culture and living in hostile territory as christians, it must be massively more so to be a christian who is gay. And certainly, the hope of any disenfranchised group in the U.S. is that the past would repeat itself for their group.

I believe that to whatever degree the CotN declares itself a church that will specifically exclude a group that does not live up to x standard, they are then asking for people of that group, as well as anybody sympathetic to them, to please leave. Which means that the CotN may also have to be okay with the holiness mission that leads to the U.S. branch of the church dying by the age of 150. There's no shame in that, but the church probably needs to make up it's mind, draw a line in the sand, and then be okay with the American withering effect.

[Mike Schutz]

It is appropriate that this thread end as it began, with Todd offering a valuable perspective.