something that occurred to me tonight

[Todd Erickson]

There are 6 verses about homosexuality in the bible.

There are 3000 about how we treat the poor.

All of the people who are practicing homosexuals are going to hell whether or not they claim Christ, but those who refuse to practice justice toward the poor for political or other reasons aren't, despite the fact that Christ had a specific parable about this.

So either A. despite having 3000 verses about it, God and Jesus weren't actually serious about the poor, the widows, the orphans, the aliens...

Or we're all going to hell, no matter who we claim as Saviour.

Can somebody explain this to me?

[Billy Cox]

There are 6 verses about homosexuality in the bible.

There are 3000 about how we treat the poor.

All of the people who are practicing homosexuals are going to hell whether or not they claim Christ, but those who refuse to practice justice toward the poor for political or other reasons aren't, despite the fact that Christ had a specific parable about this.

So either A. despite having 3000 verses about it, God and Jesus weren't actually serious about the poor, the widows, the orphans, the aliens...

Or we're all going to hell, no matter who we claim as Saviour.

Can somebody explain this to me?

Maybe the Bible doesn't waste time harping on sins that the vast majority of God's people will never be tempted to commit. Even if scripture and BGS was silent about homosexuality, I woiuld still not seek out a homsexual relationship.

On the same token, fixating on a sin that has no hold over our life can feel just like righteousness.

[Paul DeBaufer]

Maybe the Bible doesn't waste time harping on sins that the vast majority of God's people will never be tempted to commit. Even if scripture and BGS was silent about homosexuality, I woiuld still not seek out a homsexual relationship.

On the same token, fixating on a sin that has no hold over our life can feel just like righteousness.

Because you're not gay. I wouldn't expect a straight person to seek out a gay relationship.

[John Kennedy]

On the same token, fixating on a sin that has no hold over our life can feel just like righteousness.

That is what enabled the old, old man to stand up in church and testify that God had delivered him from the sin of hatred - "All them no-good, low-life so-and-sos I once hated - they're all dead!"

[Hans Deventer]

I'm sorry, Todd, I can't answer this one without becoming disgusted and cynical.

[Jim Chabot]

There are 6 verses about homosexuality in the bible.

There are 3000 about how we treat the poor.

All of the people who are practicing homosexuals are going to hell whether or not they claim Christ, but those who refuse to practice justice toward the poor for political or other reasons aren't, despite the fact that Christ had a specific parable about this.

So either A. despite having 3000 verses about it, God and Jesus weren't actually serious about the poor, the widows, the orphans, the aliens...

Or we're all going to hell, no matter who we claim as Saviour.

Can somebody explain this to me?

I don't know Todd, it seems that you are just consumed with cynicism, so I doubt any explanation would be adequate.

But it's real easy, we recognize homosexual behavior to be sinful. Why, cause it is, that's all.

And we do care for the poor. Why, cause we are supposed to.

What's so hard about this? There's only one verse that tells us to go to church and still we go.

Oh, and I'm not aware that there are any verses which speak to "justice" for the poor. It's called compassion.

[Jim Chabot]

Maybe the Bible doesn't waste time harping on sins that the vast majority of God's people will never be tempted to commit. Even if scripture and BGS was silent about homosexuality, I woiuld still not seek out a homsexual relationship.

On the same token, fixating on a sin that has no hold over our life can feel just like righteousness.

How often do we miss this simple truth. God doesn't overstate the obvious, some take this as license to say "did God really say this?"

[Todd Erickson]

I'm sorry, Todd, I can't answer this one without becoming disgusted and cynical.

I'm not sure what this looks like in the Netherlands, where your social system provides for it's people a lot better. But here in the U.S., 1 out of ever 5 children is starving, the illiteracy rate is astounding, and certain racial sets are bound to have 2/3 of them in prison by the time they're in their 20's. Systematic poverty is a fact here, the same way it was in Jesus' day, and we've turned it into a political football.

I'm told that 12 billion dollars could resolve a lot of the world's current water problems through wells, but we can't even afford to pay our teachers, though we can afford dozens of secret wars via drone all over the world, often through a regime of bombing the civilians that come to rescue other targets. Our repeated fulfillment of the myth of redemptive violence is truly astounding.

But no, the problem in the U.S. is the homosexuals. The problem in the U.S. is the abortion doctors, and the sluts who go to them. The problem in the U.S. is the lazy people.

I.e., what we refer to as "First world problems". The mounting 3rd world problems within our own nation, we dismiss, we find reasons for blame. We repeat the mistakes of our forefathers.

If those who continue in homosexual relationships within salvation are, in fact, bound for hell, then certainly, we who are saved who continue to ignore the poor within our own country, who do not condemn redemptive violence, who do not act to end systematic sin, are just as bound for hell. I'm not sure how else to take Jesus' words, other than at face value.

[James Diggs]

But it's real easy, we recognize homosexual behavior to be sinful. Why, cause it is, that's all.

This sounds a bit circular Jim. I doesn't really answer how homosexuality is self evidently recognizable as sinful.

This is the problem I think we have as the church, and we don't have a strong argument against it. We can say "the bible says", but then it is only a faith issue and not enough to insist that the society we take part in that don't share such a faith get in line.

If we argue against it in society we are going to have to answer how homosexuality is self evidently recognizable as harmful to others or those that participate in it in the same responsible ways people engage heterosexually.

It's not like sin isn't relevant to preach about to society, but we have to remember what sin is. I believe sin is what robs us of our humanity created in the image of God. I think it would be good for us to be able to answer for ourselves how homosexuality might rob people of their God created humanity (sin). Again, I think we are short on these answers.

[Ian Gentles]

I think their is quite a strong Biblical teaching that homosexuality is wrong. It is seen as unatural and we have to live with this.

[Bill Morrison]

There may just be a few verses about "homosexuality", but there is a whole lot more in the Bible about the topic of sexual purity in general, and homosexuals (as well as heterosexuals) would do well to pay more attention to them.

BILL

[Dwayne Petry]

But here in the U.S., 1 out of ever 5 children is starving,

Todd, I don't know where you got your stats, but I am a professional photographer who specializes in school portraits, and photograph tens of thousands of school age children a year. I have not seen one child that I would say looks like they are starving. I have seen images of starving children in third world countries. What I have seen over the past 25 years of photography, is that there is an increase of obesity in the children I photograph.

Some children may go to bed hungry for various reasons, mostly because of irresponsible parents, but that is for another discussion.

2/3 of certain racial sets are bound for prison by the time they're in their 20's. WOW, that is news to me. I did not know that the color of your skin bound you for prison, I thought that was a result of your own decisions and actions.

Scripture is clear, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, we are not to be deceived, no one who continues in sinful practice will inherit the Kingdom of God. This is not an issue of debate, God made the rules. The good news is found in verst 11, "and that is what some of your were"! Praise GOD, we do not have to live in bondage to sin of any type!

[Jim Chabot]

Todd, I don't know where you got your stats, but I am a professional photographer who specializes in school portraits, and photograph tens of thousands of school age children a year. I have not seen one child that I would say looks like they are starving. I have seen images of starving children in third world countries. What I have seen over the past 25 years of photography, is that there is an increase of obesity in the children I photograph.

Some children may go to bed hungry for various reasons, mostly because of irresponsible parents, but that is for another discussion.

2/3 of certain racial sets are bound for prison by the time they're in their 20's. WOW, that is news to me. I did not know that the color of your skin bound you for prison, I thought that was a result of your own decisions and actions.

Scripture is clear, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, we are not to be deceived, no one who continues in sinful practice will inherit the Kingdom of God. This is not an issue of debate, God made the rules. The good news is found in verst 11, "and that is what some of your were"! Praise GOD, we do not have to live in bondage to sin of any type!

Todd is pretty mixed up here no doubt. He fails to notice that we pay our teachers extremely well here and we have more than we need, I don't think that it's possible to blame illiteracy on teacher pay or lack of teachers.

He's also not realizing that european countries rely heavily on the U.S. for protection, we spend billions of dollars in our role as a NATO partner. I would gladly favor redirecting those funds.

But then there are also 16 Trillion reasons that we can't do everything, we are pretty deep in debt and our bond rating is slipping. Time for a reality check Todd, your way off base here.

And you are so right Dwayne, I just love reading that word "WERE" And such WERE some of you! There is surely hope, and that hope is not found in condoning sin.

[Benjamin Burch]

Oh, and I'm not aware that there are any verses which speak to "justice" for the poor. It's called compassion.

Then, plain and simple, you've never read the Bible. It really is that simple.

[Benjamin Burch]

we are so hopelessly cultural. As Jim Gaffigan says, "it's all McDonalds."

[Benjamin Burch]

nd for prison by the time they're in their 20's. WOW, that is news to me. I did not know that the color of your skin bound you for prison, I thought that was a result of your own decisions and actions.

Really? Do we really believe this? Is our head so far in the sand?



Blacks make up 14% of those who use drugs, and 63% of those who end up in prison for drugs. But... I'm sure it's fair, and simply "a result of your own decisions and actions."

[Paul DeBaufer]

Todd, I don't know where you got your stats, but I am a professional photographer who specializes in school portraits, and photograph tens of thousands of school age children a year. I have not seen one child that I would say looks like they are starving. I have seen images of starving children in third world countries. What I have seen over the past 25 years of photography, is that there is an increase of obesity in the children I photograph.

Some children may go to bed hungry for various reasons, mostly because of irresponsible parents, but that is for another discussion.

2/3 of certain racial sets are bound for prison by the time they're in their 20's. WOW, that is news to me. I did not know that the color of your skin bound you for prison, I thought that was a result of your own decisions and actions.

Scripture is clear, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, we are not to be deceived, no one who continues in sinful practice will inherit the Kingdom of God. This is not an issue of debate, God made the rules. The good news is found in verst 11, "and that is what some of your were"! Praise GOD, we do not have to live in bondage to sin of any type!

So, NazNet has taught you something today. Because this is pretty much the facts. Our system is racist. Blacks and Latinos make up greater than this 2/3 fraction of our prison populations. Disproportionally more than their numbers in our society. This is the result of systemic evil. Retributive justice, you know the system of justice Jesus and Paul both subvert in the teachings when they promote distributive justice.

Seem to me that parents who can't feed their kids just wouldn't send them to school on picture day. They can't afford to buy them anyway, so why should they have their kids go sit for them? So, while I will not discount or negate your experience I will suggest that maybe it is a little skewed, unbeknownst to you.

I find your statement that some kids may go to bed hungry, but that because their parents' irresponsibility a bit cavalier. I highly doubt all kids who go to bed hungry is due to parental irresponsibility, that's just something we like to tell ourselves when we don't want to be our brother's keeper, when we want to rationalize being goats rather than sheep. I am not saying that this is what you are doing. You are simply repeating the old worn out excuse. Now, I am sure, and have witnessed kids going to bed hungry because mom or dad or both were addicted to drugs and spent the money on dope. Most regret it when they come down, but when dope sick are not capable of thinking of anything but getting well. Again the result of poor choices reinforced by lack of options. I work in recovery, it is very expensive. We are the cheapest program in our area and we are $4000.00 a month. Most of the people that need the help and whose children go to bed hungry can't afford that, we can't afford to do it cheaper. We have 1 paid employee, the rest of us "volunteer" for our keep. This keeps the cost down, yet it is still too expensive for the average addict.

Todd is right we rationalize away our tendency to be goats, yet Jesus is clear what will happen to us if we continue to neglect the needs of the least of these. Hellbound.

[Todd Erickson]

What fascinates me so far is that A. many were quick to jump on arguing whether homosexuality was actually wrong, rather than dealing with the other portion of my question, and B. were quick to dismiss poverty as somebody else's probably...i.e, irresponsible parents, etc.

There are many children in AR whose only meal of the day may be at school. For some of them, I'm sure it's because their parents are busy making and selling meth, but for a great majority of them, it's simply because they can't afford it.

Here in the south, they can predict prison levels starting by 8th grade based on the literacy levels in 3rd grade. Accurately.

Most prisoners here in AR are functionally illiterate, which means that the only employment they can find upon getting out of jail is the kind where they don't need to read anything, including tax forms. Their parents were, in most cases, the same way. Their children, who are in the classes my wife is teaching, are following the same path.

Talk to Dale sometime about the difficulty of getting these people to break out of the lifestyle they're in. Thank the Lord that he and those like them are ministering to the people in our prisons and attempting to introduce them to Christ and discipleship, rather than writing them off as having made their choice.

[James Diggs]

There are many children in AR whose only meal of the day may be at school. For some of them, I'm sure it's because their parents are busy making and selling meth, but for a great majority of them, it's simply because they can't afford it.

Here in the south, they can predict prison levels starting by 8th grade based on the literacy levels in 3rd grade. Accurately.

It seems to be a problem of cognitive dissidence as when such information does not line up with one's beliefs we either have to change our beliefs or deny deny deny the reality of the information.

without adjusting our beliefs the only option is to come back and say "it's all lies".

[Dwayne Petry]

So, NazNet has taught you something today. Because this is pretty much the facts. Our system is racist. Blacks and Latinos make up greater than this 2/3 fraction of our prison populations. Disproportionally more than their numbers in our society. This is the result of systemic evil. Retributive justice, you know the system of justice Jesus and Paul both subvert in the teachings when they promote distributive justice.

Seem to me that parents who can't feed their kids just wouldn't send them to school on picture day. They can't afford to buy them anyway, so why should they have their kids go sit for them? So, while I will not discount or negate your experience I will suggest that maybe it is a little skewed, unbeknownst to you.

I find your statement that some kids may go to bed hungry, but that because their parents' irresponsibility a bit cavalier. I highly doubt all kids who go to bed hungry is due to parental irresponsibility, that's just something we like to tell ourselves when we don't want to be our brother's keeper, when we want to rationalize being goats rather than sheep. I am not saying that this is what you are doing. You are simply repeating the old worn out excuse. Now, I am sure, and have witnessed kids going to bed hungry because mom or dad or both were addicted to drugs and spent the money on dope. Most regret it when they come down, but when dope sick are not capable of thinking of anything but getting well. Again the result of poor choices reinforced by lack of options. I work in recovery, it is very expensive. We are the cheapest program in our area and we are $4000.00 a month. Most of the people that need the help and whose children go to bed hungry can't afford that, we can't afford to do it cheaper. We have 1 paid employee, the rest of us "volunteer" for our keep. This keeps the cost down, yet it is still too expensive for the average addict.

Todd is right we rationalize away our tendency to be goats, yet Jesus is clear what will happen to us if we continue to neglect the needs of the least of these. Hellbound.

Paul, thank you for your work with the poor. I'm sure you are a good steward of the money (although not much-pray that GOD will increase) that GOD has blessed you with. You have no idea, just because I work 50-60 hours a week at my business, what I do with my "spare" time of how I "give" of the money or how I use the "assets" of my business to help others ("be our brother's keeper) so please do not generalize about something you know nothing about. In this case you would be wrong!

Please explain "distributive justice" to me, I do not know what you are meaning by that phrase. If it has to do with the "disportionally more", and you think that the prison population should represent demographic percentages instead of house criminals, irregardless of demographic percentages, that means that somewhere, scripture teaches to not punish some criminals, because of their race. If that is distributive justice, that is racist!

Unbeknown to you, school children do not take their picture only to buy, they have to take their picture for the yearbook or in some cases for the school ID, whether they but or not. We photograph about 98% of the student body, therefore my observation is not as skewed as you think!

We all have options (choices) in our behavior. After our bankruptcy, my wife and I would half a sandwich for lunch, so that our boys would have a whole sandwich for supper when they returned from school. I will not bore you with the details of our personal struggles, but we made choices that were difficult. I know plenty about struggle, from sexual addiction, drunkenness, and being down right selfish in everything I did.

No apology needed, I to sometimes make a judgment before I have "walked in that person's shoes".

[Todd Erickson]

I'm never clear on why "It doesn't work that way in my neck of the woods, so it must not be true anywhere" is upheld as a meaningful discussion tactic.

[John Kennedy]

It seems to be a problem of cognitive dissidence as when such information does not line up with one's beliefs we either have to change our beliefs or deny deny deny the reality of the information.

without adjusting our beliefs the only option is to come back and say "it's all lies".

Should 'cognitive dissidence' be 'cognitive dissonance'?

[James Diggs]

Should 'cognitive dissidence' be 'cognitive dissonance'?

no, you must be incorrect because I believe I am a very good speller.

[John Kennedy]

no, you must be incorrect because I believe I am a very good speller.

Well, you should be able to relate to my church's prayer of confession which talks about 'falling short'. I'm glad you 'straitened' me out on this.

[Jim Chabot]

I'm never clear on why "It doesn't work that way in my neck of the woods, so it must not be true anywhere" is upheld as a meaningful discussion tactic.

How about, just cause your sink is full of dishes that need washing and your dog's got fleas. Not everybody lives where you do. Does that work better for you?

[Jim Chabot]

no, you must be incorrect because I believe I am a very good speller.

Maybe somebody should set you strait? Or would that more correctly be spelled "straight?"

[Jim Chabot]

Really? Do we really believe this? Is our head so far in the sand?



Blacks make up 14% of those who use drugs, and 63% of those who end up in prison for drugs. But... I'm sure it's fair, and simply "a result of your own decisions and actions."

Looks like you and Ron just might be missing a few key words. Those words would be "with intent to sell." I'm going to guess that the majority of those in prison are there because of those four little words which make the difference between a harmless stoner and someone who preys upon others and deserves to stay exactly where they are at.

I'm guessing that if you would accurately line the facts up the disparity would disappear.

[Gina Stevenson]

no, you must be incorrect because I believe I am a very good speller.

Who said anything about spelling? Both words are/were spelled correctly.

Maybe somebody should set you strait? Or would that more correctly be spelled "straight?"

Looks to me like a very purposeful misspelling, & that John knows it, too, Jim!

[Jim Chabot]

Looks to me like a very purposeful misspelling, & that John knows it, too, Jim!

I was actually referring to a post a day or two ago where James said that if he had read me wrong, for me to feel free to set him strait.

My response was; "Hormuz, Gibraltar, or you pick one, there are so many." Or something like that.

[Billy Cox]

How about, just cause your sink is full of dishes that need washing and your dog's got fleas. Not everybody lives where you do. Does that work better for you?

No, the analogy would be my saying, "my sink/dishes are clean, and I don't own a dog, therefore those who complain of dirty dishes and dogs with fleas must be living in an alternate psychotic universe."

[David Graham]

THIS IS A HOST POST

Okay Guys, could we tone down our rhetoric a little so we don't descend into full blown personal attacks.
Just a reminder......
Cheers,
Dave.

[Nate Pruitt]

I read this whole post to date in one sitting I noticed that now we aren't talking about homosexuals or the poor...

so I feel a lot better. Those are such uncomfortable themes to address.

[Paul DeBaufer]

Paul, thank you for your work with the poor. I'm sure you are a good steward of the money (although not much-pray that GOD will increase) that GOD has blessed you with. You have no idea, just because I work 50-60 hours a week at my business, what I do with my "spare" time of how I "give" of the money or how I use the "assets" of my business to help others ("be our brother's keeper) so please do not generalize about something you know nothing about. In this case you would be wrong!

Please explain "distributive justice" to me, I do not know what you are meaning by that phrase. If it has to do with the "disportionally more", and you think that the prison population should represent demographic percentages instead of house criminals, irregardless of demographic percentages, that means that somewhere, scripture teaches to not punish some criminals, because of their race. If that is distributive justice, that is racist!

Unbeknown to you, school children do not take their picture only to buy, they have to take their picture for the yearbook or in some cases for the school ID, whether they but or not. We photograph about 98% of the student body, therefore my observation is not as skewed as you think!

We all have options (choices) in our behavior. After our bankruptcy, my wife and I would half a sandwich for lunch, so that our boys would have a whole sandwich for supper when they returned from school. I will not bore you with the details of our personal struggles, but we made choices that were difficult. I know plenty about struggle, from sexual addiction, drunkenness, and being down right selfish in everything I did.

No apology needed, I to sometimes make a judgment before I have "walked in that person's shoes".

As for the prison population whites commit more crime than blacks and latinos, but to look at our prison populations you would think that the reverse is true. The prison population should reflect the proportionality of the criminal population. It does not. Poor people and people of color are disproportionally sent to prison for their crimes where as well to do whites get probation more often. The system is bigoted--racist and classist.

As for including you in my generalization, I tried, but evidently failed, to exclude you hoping that you are the exception that it seems you are. My apologies for not communicating better.

I am so glad that you had options to made good decisions after your bankruptcy. I am sure it wasn't easy for you or your family, but it sounds like you have done well since.

[Nate Pruitt]

As for the prison population whites commit more crime than blacks and latinos, but to look at our prison populations you would think that the reverse is true. The prison population should reflect the proportionality of the criminal population. It does not. Poor people and people of color are disproportionally sent to prison for their crimes where as well to do whites get probation more often. The system is bigoted--racist and classist.

As for including you in my generalization, I tried, but evidently failed, to exclude you hoping that you are the exception that it seems you are. My apologies for not communicating better.

I am so glad that you had options to made good decisions after your bankruptcy. I am sure it wasn't easy for you or your family, but it sounds like you have done well since.

There is a classism in effect as well. Most whites in prison (that don't commit white collar crimes) are typically poor. Having been in court settings with poor white students it has been difficult to watch a public defender recommend a plea with minimized sentence, they won't even fight for charges to be dropped or stricken as their workload makes such tedious acts prohibitive. Wealthier people have lawyers with more assistance and lighter case loads. There are definitely opportunities to help the poor on this side of the prison walls, too, but it requires a restructuring of our fractured justice system, education for more than standardized testing, and so much more.

Or, drawing from a recent conversation, my friend and I had about his new location, "There are plenty of ministry opportunities here," to which I replied, "I have yet to find a place where there aren't."

[Jim Chabot]

This sounds a bit circular Jim. I doesn't really answer how homosexuality is self evidently recognizable as sinful.

This is the problem I think we have as the church, and we don't have a strong argument against it. We can say "the bible says", but then it is only a faith issue and not enough to insist that the society we take part in that don't share such a faith get in line.

In the context that Todd has presented here, "the Bible says" is really all that matters. We are talking in the church here, not as a church to the world. In the church, the argument is quite strong, it is sin. Plain as day going to hell sin. In fact that is exactly what Paul says, he says that homosexuals will not see the kingdom, and he says it clearly and plainly.

If we argue against it in society we are going to have to answer how homosexuality is self evidently recognizable as harmful to others or those that participate in it in the same responsible ways people engage heterosexually.

It's not like sin isn't relevant to preach about to society, but we have to remember what sin is. I believe sin is what robs us of our humanity created in the image of God. I think it would be good for us to be able to answer for ourselves how homosexuality might rob people of their God created humanity (sin). Again, I think we are short on these answers.

First and foremost in our search for answers is the understanding that it does rob us of our humanity. Because the Bible says that it is sin and the Bible says that it will keep us from the kingdom. That's our starting point, we trust that God has inspired Scripture, and we trust that God is smarter and wiser than we can comprehend, we begin here.

If not, then I need to question any and every other sin with the same old question. Did God really say that?

Ian is spot on when he says, open this door and you need to open them all. Every single one of them.

[Paul DeBaufer]

There is a classism in effect as well. Most whites in prison (that don't commit white collar crimes) are typically poor. Having been in court settings with poor white students it has been difficult to watch a public defender recommend a plea with minimized sentence, they won't even fight for charges to be dropped or stricken as their workload makes such tedious acts prohibitive. Wealthier people have lawyers with more assistance and lighter case loads. There are definitely opportunities to help the poor on this side of the prison walls, too, but it requires a restructuring of our fractured justice system, education for more than standardized testing, and so much more.

Or, drawing from a recent conversation, my friend and I had about his new location, "There are plenty of ministry opportunities here," to which I replied, "I have yet to find a place where there aren't."

Absolutely, classism is endemic to the system.

[Cynthia Prentice]

There are 6 verses about homosexuality in the bible.

There are 3000 about how we treat the poor.

All of the people who are practicing homosexuals are going to hell whether or not they claim Christ, but those who refuse to practice justice toward the poor for political or other reasons aren't, despite the fact that Christ had a specific parable about this.

So either A. despite having 3000 verses about it, God and Jesus weren't actually serious about the poor, the widows, the orphans, the aliens...

Or we're all going to hell, no matter who we claim as Saviour.

Can somebody explain this to me?

We have traditionally understood all commandments have equal weight, but at the time of Jesus this was not the case. The rabbis "weighed" the laws against each other where two laws had potential conflict. This way people knew which law to follow.

One rabbinic school had a list of laws...number one was love the Lord with all heart, soul, strength, the second law was love your neighbor. Another rabbinic school had a different list...number one was love the Lord with all heart, soul, strength, but "love your neighbor" was farther down the list. In all the rabbinic schools, "love your neighbor" always took precedence...was higher up the list, than the purity laws.

We see this in the parable of Jesus, the Good Samaritan...the Priest and the Levite were Sadducees and with Sadducees the purity laws always trumped the love your neighbor law. So they stepped over the guy without touching him so they could remain clean. The Samaritan put the love your neighbor law above the purity laws...and risked becoming unclean in order to love his neighbor. Depending on the law's place within the list determined if it was "light" (kal) or "heavy" (hamur)....heavy meaning it was higher up the list and took precedence. Certain principles derived from the Bible were used to organize laws relative to each other, and the focus of many rabbinic debates was how to prioritize them.

What does this have to do with the number of scriptures regarding homosexuality? It has a lot to do with it. Most people don't know that at the time of Jesus it was allowable to break almost every law if it would save someone's life. This is the rabbinic principle of *"Pikuach Nephesh", which means preservation of life. I was amazed to learn this. We see an example of Pikuach Nephesh in scripture in the story of Rahab and the spies. Rahab lied to save their lives...and at the time of Jesus this would have been totally within their understanding of keeping the commandments. If something similar had happened at the time of Jesus...every rabbi would have said it was allowable to set aside the law that says not to lie. Sometimes it is impossible to keep two commandments at the same time...if she tells the truth...spies die...she is keeping the law against lying but setting aside the law of loving your neighbor. If she lies, she is setting aside the law against lying but keeping the law of loving and preserving her neighbor's life.

But their were three laws that were so weighty they could not be set aside to save life, and these were idolatry, sexual immorality, and murder. These three laws were not up for debate...there was complete agreement. Jesus spent much of his time talking about the laws that were debated as to their importance, which is why we don't see much about these laws, idolatry, sexual immorality, and adultry...but we see many, many, scriptures and parables on loving your neighbor, being generous, giving to the poor etc.

~ Cynthia



"Pikuach Nephesh" (pi-KOO-akh NEH-fesh) is the preservation of life. The rabbis saw that Leviticus 19:16 says, "Do not stand by while your brother's blood is shed" - meaning if someone's life is in danger, you must intervene. Also, the Torah says that the law was given in order to bring life, (Ex. 30:15-16), so they concluded that all laws (except idolatry, sexual immorality and murder) should be set aside to save a human life.

[Todd Erickson]

Jesus seems to indicate in Matthew that the one who professes to serve the Kingdom, but does not serve Christ in the form of others in need will not see the Kingdom.

My theorum is that far more will fail to the see the kingdom because of lack of neighbor love than because of homosexuality, but our focus is on the thing most of us won't have to deal with, rather than what most Christians in American fail to deal with daily.

We live in a society where, in order to not have to make the Good Samaritan decision, we have all moved to locations where we don't have to encounter the poor unless we go to their neighborhoods or live in cities. So we can honestly say that we didn't encounter Christ in the person of a needful person, by supported systemic sin in the person of a culture that allows these ghettos to be created and forgotten.

Ask Ryan Pugh about the forgotten on the edges of our Empire.

[Hans Deventer]

It's not like sin isn't relevant to preach about to society, but we have to remember what sin is. I believe sin is what robs us of our humanity created in the image of God. I think it would be good for us to be able to answer for ourselves how homosexuality might rob people of their God created humanity (sin). Again, I think we are short on these answers.

I would define sin as seeking our fulfilment in anything else but God. Everything that takes the place He can only take, is sin. Which is why Paul wrote that

Romans 14:8 - If we live, we live for the Lord; and if we die, we die for the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
Galatians 2:20 - I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

We need to understand that all parts of our lives fall under this, including sexuality. Now if you understand the image of God as relational, that would actually suit the above quite nicely. And it becomes clear how any kind of sexuality, even within marriage, might be sin. My wife could be my idol, sex with her could be my idol, you name it. And all of this would rob me of my humanity.
I agree with you, James, from this point of view, there is no difference. Nor do I think the Bible ever deals with homosexuality within a legal marriage. It does speak about marriage only in the man/woman situation, but within that context it allows for situations we would abhor. We would be thrown in jail if we followed some Biblical examples of marriage. And rightly so.

[Hans Deventer]

THIS IS A HOST POST

Okay Guys, could we tone down our rhetoric a little so we don't descend into full blown personal attacks.
Just a reminder......
Cheers,
Dave.

David, I'm doing all I can. In recent days, I've already deleted at least 20 posts right after posting, of before submitting, that really conveyed how I felt. My blood is frequently boiling and I have to throw water on my keyboard to stop it from igniting.