Nazarene Ally

[Cam Pence]

Has anyone else heard of this group? Just saw it on Facebook.

Here is the website: nazareneally.com

and here is their about page from FB: https://www.facebook.com/NazareneAlly/info

I had honestly never heard of them before

[Greg Farra]

I've seen their stuff before, don't know much about them other than they want full acceptance of homosexuality in the COTN.

[Jim Chabot]

Never heard of them before. While I don't wish them any ill will in any way, I do sincerely pray that we will be protected from the evil one and that their mission will fail.

Praying that those involved come to a realization of their sin and to a saving knowledge and embrace of Jesus. Praying that our stance remains Scriptural and that our church remains a safe place, especially for the sake of our children.

[Rich Schmidt]

I'd never heard of them before. Interesting.

I wonder... It sounds like their goal is for homosexual activity to be taken off the sin list. Is that correct? At first, I thought maybe their goal was for those with same-sex attractions to be welcomed, loved, and affirmed in our church. Much of the language on their FB page sounds like that... and of course, I can readily support that. But the more I read, the more it sounds like they're shooting for affirmation of gay sexual relationships.

So... am I correct? Anyone know for sure?

[Greg Farra]

Rich, that's what I thought when I looked at the site. I prefer the via media here. We need to listen to gays and lesbians, love them as people, and treat them with repect. But I'm not for affirming same-sex relations. When I was not a Christian, I had different views on it. I worked at an apartment complex with a lot of gay residents. They were for the most part good people. Last year I stood in the pulpit and stated tht Jesus would never call one a faggo,and neither should we. But I'm convinced that we were created male and female for a reason.

[David Graham]

If their aim was simply to affirm the homosexual as a person of great value, I'd support the aims of the organisation....
but it wants to go much further and support the "sexual" practice between people in a same gender relationship, and I can never endorse that. Ultimately I cannot condone any behaviour that the bible condemns..... either my own or that of another.

[Cam Pence]

I'd never heard of them before. Interesting.

I wonder... It sounds like their goal is for homosexual activity to be taken off the sin list. Is that correct? At first, I thought maybe their goal was for those with same-sex attractions to be welcomed, loved, and affirmed in our church. Much of the language on their FB page sounds like that... and of course, I can readily support that. But the more I read, the more it sounds like they're shooting for affirmation of gay sexual relationships.

So... am I correct? Anyone know for sure?

It looks a lot like you are correct Rich. They have advertised for Soulforce Equality Ride (an organization that targets universities they believe to discriminate against LGBT people in the faculty, staff, and student population) had visited four Nazarene universities uninvited. They also posted the generals paper on homosexuality followed by urging people to write church leaders and demand that the CotN become gay affirming which I guess they don't think the current position is. They also criticize Nazarene leaders such as Lorne Gresham and David Felter for holding to the churches position. There are many things scattered throughout such as articles advocating for a day when Nazarene clergy can marry gay couples. They seem to want the CotN to affirm homosexual behavior. Plus they seem to be based out by my neck of the woods in Lenexa which a little surprising. Right in the Naz Mecca

[Greg Farra]

With our churches being worldwide, I don't see much support for the cause.

[Ryan Scott]

I've exchanged a few emails with the creator of the group. I think it's a guy, although I don't want to presume.

I've tried to communicate that Nazarenes will likely need more clarification on what exactly is meant by becoming an "LGBT affirming church," before any real dialogue could take place.

In some instances the site seems to imply that merely accepting sexual orientation as a given would be enough (something the Pastoral Perspective has already affirmed), while in others it seems to imply more.

I imagine before we really get to any theologically controversial (at least for us) discussions, it would behoove us to work for an understanding in our congregations that sexual orientation itself is not sinful (again, something we're already committed to).

I imagine more fruitful conversations can take place once the group leader is fully public.

[Paul DeBaufer]

I've never heard of them.

[Michael Flowers]

Reading the website the goal is that the Church of the Nazarene would become like the following says: "In North America, several denominations are already LGBT-affirming. Most prominently are the Evangelical Lutherans, Episcopal Church, United Church of Canada, Anglican Church (Church of Canda and Church of England), Presbyterian Church (USA), United Church of Christ and some conferences of the United Methodist Church allow reconciling (affirming) congregations. All of these denominations came to this conclusion after a long an arduous journey. We can study the path these denominations have set before us as the Church of the Nazarene embarks on its own journey to becoming an LGBT-affirming church."

This also states the purpose/goal: "The shift to full acceptance of LGBT-Members, let alone open LGBT-pastors, in the Church of the Nazarene won’t happen over night. Changing a worldview is a long process, so why not start now."

These things worry me because this is not a battle that the Church should be having to fight. Our focus should be on making disciples, not defending what sin is from those who would seek to redefine it. I doubt that there will be much support for a resolution, but the fact that it is being pushed for, even by a small group, is disturbing to me.

[Greg Farra]

I've been through this in the ELCA. It is not pretty. There are sincere people on both sides. But it will split a denomination apart. There will be fighting, divisions, and the Gospel will not be the priority.

[Cam Pence]

Yea Im about as worried about these guys as i am the CNs....which is to say not

[Billy Cox]

I imagine before we really get to any theologically controversial (at least for us) discussions, it would behoove us to work for an understanding in our congregations that sexual orientation itself is not sinful (again, something we're already committed to).

I imagine more fruitful conversations can take place once the group leader is fully public.

On the whole, the distinction between orientation and lifestyle is waaaay out beyond the level of nuance that the denomination can stomach right now.

I daresay that pastors who choose to draw on a BGS document for guidance are looking to the Warrick letter and quietly hoping that their people don't stumble onto the Pastoral Perspectives document.

It is a good document, but it is an aberration. I wouldn't bank on it being a policy that the BGS or anyone else in the hierarchy are going to risk their career to defend. I invite evidence to the contrary.

[Billy Cox]

I've been through this in the ELCA. It is not pretty. There are sincere people on both sides. But it will split a denomination apart. There will be fighting, divisions, and the Gospel will not be the priority.

Greg, do you think that the CotN can avoid this conflict? I used to think so, but now I'm not so sure.

[Cam Pence]

Greg, do you think that the CotN can avoid this conflict? I used to think so, but now I'm not so sure.

Why not? I truly dont know many Nazarenes that are affirming in the same way as the ELCA. Most i do will actually just go to the ELCA if it means that much to them.

[Michael Flowers]

Greg, do you think that the CotN can avoid this conflict? I used to think so, but now I'm not so sure.

Sadly, this conflict will not be avoided for long. It might be put off for a few more years but we will likely have to face it within the next 10 years (if not in the next year or two). This has become a growing issue on Nazarene college campuses and is one of the hottest topics in the culture right now (gay rights that is). It will not be avoided forever, a strong stand will have to be taken at some point and the conflict will take place.

[Ryan Scott]

Sadly, this conflict will not be avoided for long. It might be put off for a few more years but we will likely have to face it within the next 10 years (if not in the next year or two). This has become a growing issue on Nazarene college campuses and is one of the hottest topics in the culture right now (gay rights that is). It will not be avoided forever, a strong stand will have to be taken at some point and the conflict will take place.

This is why I think we need to talk about it. I haven't yet seen anything on the Ally site advocating for the recognition of relationships. That might be the plan (I've been trying to get the position explained a bit more).

At this point I see the college student issue more an attack on fidelity and faithfulness, with homosexuality as an excuse. Most Nazarene college kids I talk to are trying to justify sex outside of marriage and using the refusal of the country to recognize gay marriage as an undermining of marriage as an institution.

I think we'd be much better off to focus on a Christian understanding of marriage (not who's in it, but what it means to be faithful and why we get married at all). Homosexual marriage is and forever will be a matter over which sincere Christians disagree. I'd rather take a stand on something for which all Christians should be in agreement.

[Greg Farra]

Without getting too much into the history and where I think the ELCA erred, I would think that if the Generals and District Superintendants would not allow groups that promote homosexuality to function in our churches, that would be a big roadblock. Groups like Lutherans Concerned/North America had official chapters in churches. Other denominations have similar groups, and often they advocate for positions contrary to official church law. If churches would uphold their policies and teachings, these groups would have a much harder time gathering support.

I would say that despite the fact I am against sexual relations outside of male/female marriage, the groups I am aware of on both sides of the battle in the ELCA were civil, polite and loving. Many of the people who opposed it have left, started new churches, and are preaching the Gospel, unlike the scorched earth CNers who can't realize they have lost any right to fight because of their tactics.

[Billy Cox]

Why not? I truly dont know many Nazarenes that are affirming in the same way as the ELCA. Most i do will actually just go to the ELCA if it means that much to them.

I think that the same forces are at work in the CotN, albeit on a smaller scale, and probably manifested differently. I suggested that this is already in motion in some congregatons - the prominent family who quietly has an uncomfortable secret about a gay son or daughter - the pastor's efforts to protect the family from judgement by the congregation and the denomination alike. How long does this simmer? I don't know.

The main force I am referring to is the gradual shift from homosexuality as an abstraction to an issue with a human face. It will not be gay activists that move the issue, but heterosexual relatives who are suddenly faced with the reality of a close friend or family member's 'coming out', and thrust quite reluctantly into the fray...especially if the congregation turns its back on them in their moment of greatest need. Those are the people who will not simply melt away into the more gay-friendly denominations.

A denominational strategy that can be summed up as "don't let the door hit you on the way out" is not going to protect the Nazarenes.

[Dennis M. Scott]

Others have suggested the issue will come to crisis over ordination. There will be a candidate who says he/she is no longer sexually active, but that they are confident they are same sex oriented. There would be no universal way North American districts would vote. It will be sad.

[Jon Bemis]

I imagine more fruitful conversations can take place once the group leader is fully public.

The conversation might be off to a rocky start. One of their tweets says "Not being an affirming church means you agree with this guy." (Ahmadinejad)

And I think their intentions are pretty clear from this post which includes:

When will a Nazarene pastor preform a marriage on two people of the same sex, in a Nazarene Church? The fact that same-sex legislation does not force clergy to do so doesn’t rule out the possibility that a pastor can still care for two people of the same sex enough that said pastor would want to marry them just like he or she would for his or her heterosexual friends.

And so IMO it's pretty clear they want more than just accepting orientation, they want the COTN to embrace homosexual behavior as being OK.

[Ian Gentles]

Someone mentioned COTN being international being a problem if this sort of thing is allowed. They make a good point, I cant see other Nazarenes going along with western liberal values.
Mention is made of the affect on college campuses. If that is the case its an issue that needs dealt with now.
As a holiness denomination we cant allow this, the gay movement, and stay holiness.
These groups will continue to presure till we buckle and give in, so best getting it very clear now. If we are clear and unmoving in our stance our youth will be helped to see clearly on this issue.
When one stands firm, one is obviously going to be seen as anti-gay, intolerant, down right unloving. We will have to just accept this.
When I was converted I had been a heavy drinker. I didnt try to argue that I had a bent towards booze. In fact I left my old life behind, and it wasnt easy.
But here is the question, can it really be argued that to be gay is natural?

[Paul DeBaufer]

I don't think Nazarene Ally is a they. This seems to be one person. I say that by the use of the first person singular on the about page of his website. Now he may have many sympathizers and supporters. I think he hopes to one day be a group like UMC's Reconciling Ministries Network, which has been in existence for over 30 years.

[Bob Hunter]

It appears groups of this kind are propping up all over the place. I believe the student chaplain at PLNU was meeting with such a group, All God's Children. George Fox University has a group that has been around for awhile called Onegeorgefox http://www.onegeorgefox.org/

It's hard to see anything else but a cry for acceptance here and to some degree we can oblige, but a gay promiscuous lifestyle is just as wrong as a promiscuous heterosexual lifestyle. As you may recall, Todd Clayton advocated for the sexual freedom of gay Christians. Sometimes I wonder the extent to which some of these groups are motivated by sexual indulgence. It's human nature to not want anything to interfere with our sexual freedoms.

[Rich Schmidt]

Others have suggested the issue will come to crisis over ordination. There will be a candidate who says he/she is no longer sexually active, but that they are confident they are same sex oriented. There would be no universal way North American districts would vote. It will be sad.

The very idea that some would vote against ordaining them is sad to me. The particular temptations an ordination candidate faces are irrelevant, so long as they are living a holy life by the grace God gives and the power of the Holy Spirit living in them.

[Rich Schmidt]

(I've been trying to get the position explained a bit more).

I hope the site's owner will clarify things, because as it stands now, it's terribly ambiguous.

For example, I don't see anything on their "Being a Nazarene Ally" page that I can't agree with*... but that's because it talks about eliminating homophobia, creating a place of grace, a safe place for discussion, etc. But if you follow their recommended link to the pflag.org booklet on what it means to be a "straight ally," it becomes more clear that they're advocating for the normalization of gay relationships.

* clarification: This is true for that page as it stands today. They could change it tomorrow.

[Cam Pence]

Gotta say really don't think that have been that ambiguous based on the various posts and blogs. I believe it was Micheal that posted that they seek to be more like the ELCA,the Episcopal church, the UCC ect. None of those denominations are ambiguous in what they mean by affirming. Judging by some of the blogs I have read linked to the facebook page, there is a heavy connection made to the CotN position that homosexual behavioras sinful as equal to homophobia.

[Glenn Messer]

I just returned from Peru where I learned that a Nazarene pastor seeking ordination in Peru must be married before ordination as a Nazarene Elder is granted.

Personally, I would find it difficult to grant ordination to someone who acknowledges that their sexuality is oriented toward same sex relationships. My problem is that there is no legitimate (sinless) relationship available to address the sexual needs of such an individual. I would have to be convinced that the individual in question was fully committed to a celibate lifestyle for the duration of his/her life ... and I know that would be an extremely difficult commitment, to say the least.

[Benjamin Burch]

I just returned from Peru where I learned that a Nazarene pastor seeking ordination in Peru must be married before ordination as a Nazarene Elder.

This is terrible news. Why has Evangelicalism completely reversed the expectations of ordination?

[Rich Schmidt]

I just returned from Peru where I learned that a Nazarene pastor seeking ordination in Peru must be married before ordination as a Nazarene Elder is granted.

Personally, I would find it difficult to grant ordination to someone who acknowledges that their sexuality is oriented toward same sex relationships. My problem is that there is no legitimate (sinless) relationship available to address the sexual needs of such an individual. I would have to be convinced that the individual in question was fully committed to a celibate lifestyle for the duration of his/her life ... and I know that would be an extremely difficult commitment, to say the least.

First, I agree with Ben that this is terrible. Single, unmarried Nazarenes are being denied ordination?? Very, very sad. And totally against our Manual, is it not?

Second, of course that same-sex-attracted person would have to be committed to celibacy... or perhaps to an eventual heterosexual relationship. (Some gay men are happily married to women they love.) If they're in harmony with our doctrines and practices, then that's what is expected. I can't imagine that this wouldn't come up in the interview process.

[Cam Pence]

I just returned from Peru where I learned that a Nazarene pastor seeking ordination in Peru must be married before ordination as a Nazarene Elder is granted.

Personally, I would find it difficult to grant ordination to someone who acknowledges that their sexuality is oriented toward same sex relationships. My problem is that there is no legitimate (sinless) relationship available to address the sexual needs of such an individual. I would have to be convinced that the individual in question was fully committed to a celibate lifestyle for the duration of his/her life ... and I know that would be an extremely difficult commitment, to say the least.

Simply put...they should read the manual and if they can't hold to it they should find another denomination. I agree with Ben....that is lame

[Benjamin Burch]

Simply put...they should read the manual and if they can't hold to it they should find another denomination. I agree with Ben....that is lame

And on a larger scale than just the manual. What is the reasoning behind such a requirement? Whatever it might be, it contradicts the very heart of holiness. If you are going to make such a requirement, just quit preaching holiness altogether.

[Kevin Rector]

...is one of the hottest topics in the culture right now (gay rights that is).

So true. You literally can't watch a prime-time TV without at least one of the characters being gay and everyone else being so happy for them.

[Jim Chabot]

I don't think Nazarene Ally is a they. This seems to be one person. I say that by the use of the first person singular on the about page of his website. Now he may have many sympathizers and supporters. I think he hopes to one day be a group like UMC's Reconciling Ministries Network, which has been in existence for over 30 years.

I agree, I've read over every page that I can find on their site and links. This appears to be the blog of one person. This person is not giving his or her name. And we have no reason to believe that this person resides in Lenexa, it is quite possible that this is listed as the address of the fictitious character presented as the writer.

[Benjamin Burch]

So true. You literally can't watch a prime-time TV without at least one of the characters being gay and everyone else being so happy for them.

Modern Family actually dealt very well and honestly with the difficult/struggle for a comedy.

[Ian Gentles]

Simply put...they should read the manual and if they can't hold to it they should find another denomination. I agree with Ben....that is lame

Totaly agree. However this shows how other nationals would respond to any giving way to gay movement.

[Hans Deventer]

Simply put...they should read the manual and if they can't hold to it they should find another denomination. I agree with Ben....that is lame

It goes to show that not too many care what the Manual says, Cam.

[Michael Flowers]

I just returned from Peru where I learned that a Nazarene pastor seeking ordination in Peru must be married before ordination as a Nazarene Elder is granted.

Sounds like someone has taken too literally the passage that says an elder is to be the husband of one wife. That statement isn't denying single men the role of elder, but stating that you can't have multiple marriages going on.

[Michael Flowers]

I agree, I've read over every page that I can find on their site and links. This appears to be the blog of one person. This person is not giving his or her name. And we have no reason to believe that this person resides in Lenexa, it is quite possible that this is listed as the address of the fictitious character presented as the writer.

It is definitely one person writing the website, but it sounds like there is at least a few people who would be part of the group. As far as the address, I think they just listed the location of the GMC.