About time sanity is introduced into education
These people have allowed authority to go to their heads
No opinon
This school recently expelled 50 students for a variety of rule infractions...everything from dress code to fighting. They have extablished a new zero tolerance policy.
Is this "too much" or "right on?"
http://fox4kc.com/2012/10/03/future-...s-fire-alarms/
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I'm of the opinion that we do our children a disservice if we hand them a student handbook at the beginning of the year outlining the rules and then we don't enforce them. The message needs to be: life includes rules. It's your choice whether or not to follow them. Wise choices generally lead to good consequences. Bad choices lead to bad consequences.
Ask my kids -- they'll tell you I was a tough love parent.
Wherever I am, God is, and all is well.Post Thanks / Like - 1 Thanks, 0 LaughingJohn Kennedy - "thanks" for this post
As a former secondary principal, I would say that with the teachers, educators and local clergy on board it is "right on." To winnow out those who are not there to gain a quality education but to party, play pranks and disrupt is to give those who are serious about gaining a quality education a better chance to reach that goal.
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This level of agreement in KC is amazing so it must have been really bad and was probably the right thing.Originally Posted by Jim Franklin
That being said I'm not a big fan of zero tolerance or one strike and your out policies. I much prefer a progressive discipline system that leads to expulsion.
Had a teen boy in my church in KC that only stayed in school to play baseball. About the time he hit high school they instituted a zero tolerance policy for playing sports. He was marginal academically anyway and when he had a bad semester they kicked him off the team. Since he was only going to school to play ball, he dropped out. (10th grade) - Wouldn't it have been a lot better to put him on probation and require him to get tutored? The threat of not playing would have been powerful, maybe suspend him for a game to make the point but Zero tolerance is really more about getting rid of kids than helping them.
In this particular case it may have been the right choice to keep them from bring the school itself down but I'm always a little suspicious of the "get tough" approach. Personally I'm for the get smart approach.
Edit - didn't answer the survey it is a false choice.
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I agree. (I answered "No opinion" in the poll.) It's important for rules to be enforced and for a safe, learning-focused environment to be nurtured and maintained. But taking discipline seriously doesn't mean you have to use a "one strike" type of approach. (I'm not sure if that's what they mean by "zero tolerance" in this particular school.)
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Although I spent 36 years as a teacher and certainly feel students need to be held accountable for their actions, I am increasingly opposed to zero tolerance policies. I think, in some instances, they provide an opportunity for the person responsible for administering discipline to simply play it by the book and ignore the real substantive issues.
I have worked with administrators who were willing to be candid with parents and endure their wrath in handling a situation. I also worked with some who took refuge in simply playing 'hanging judge' and imposed penalties totally out of proportion to the offense.
I must confess, now being safely beyond any possibility of reprisal (what're they gonna' do -- fire me?) that I sometimes handled discipline situations that could've been 'kicked upstairs' because I telt the administrator had such limited flexibility that punishment would've been disproportionately harsh (or, in some rare instances, where experience had taught me that the administrative response would've been so lenient as to provide abosolutely no incentive to the student to get their act together).
Sometimes kids, because they are kids, do incredibly stupid things. I once was informed that an elementary student had a knife in his backpack - I knew the situation and I knew the kid. I took the knife and informed the student that a note from the parent would necessary for the knife to go home and that if it ever happened again, the knife would permanentaly disappear. End of problem.
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My kids go to a magnet school (Classen SAS) that requires every student to be accepted into the school based on grade point average, test scores, art portfolios, and/or musical/drama auditions. My twins are concentrating on vocal music along with college prep courses. Students have a 3 strikes and you're out policy on most behavioral infractions. A few infractions will automatically trigger a suspension...fighting and drugs/alcohol. If a child gets 3 strikes, they are sent back to their home school district (where they would have gone had they not been accepted into Classen SAS. I like that the school has a strict, but not zero tolerance policy.
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Didn't vote. But as the jury is still out, I'd have to say that enforcing the rules is a good thing. Like the guy on the vid said, 'If their not here for a quality education...gotta go!"
But, I too despise any zero tolerance polices stuff, it ends up doing more harm than good and lazy incompetent people get to hide behind "I'm sorry we have a zero tolerance policy..."
Also I heard "taken over by the District" in the audio, so since government is government (Whether Fed State or Local) They ALWAYS, under-react, under-react, under-react, until they then OVER_REACT!!! That's how government solutions most always work. There is almost never a measured and accurate response to a problem, it usually follows the pattern above.
My oldest son never skipped school, never...until he did.The one time he did, he skipped and assembly-pep-rally and went to Del-Taco. He came back 45 min later to get on the bus home and got caught. In San Bernardino County they have a Zero Tolerance Policy and they even give the VP a packet of Summons-Tickets and I had to take my son to court, for skipping school, a pep rally and eating a burrito!
I took it as some sort of 'hey, they must need to get serious, we'll go to the Magistrate and since you never been in trouble before... sunshine and lollypops....'
Wrong, you'd have thought he got caught killing puppies with a sledge hammer! They wanted all sorts of documentation this and that, court fees and other monitored appearances ect. It was going to be a really big deal, well except the cops got a whole lot of meth problems in San Berdu. So I just told them what they wanted to hear and set up the ominous "second" appearance and promptly said fhugeddabout dis!
As far as I know we both still have bench warrants out in SB for my son skipping school a decade ago!
I also remember a little girl got EXPELLED not suspended, we are talking a 10 year old girl in North Carolina, for bringing a knife and fork to school to eat the cold chicken her mother set with her for lunch. A Butter knife! Honest truth Expelled for bringing a butter knife to tear apart cold chicken!
Also in NC they expelled a 6 year old boy and charged him with sexual assault for kissing a 6 year old girl on the playground!.... If I am lying I'm dying!
That's why i would never, ever have or support a Zero Tolerance policy about anything!. There may certainly be some taboo behavior that acts like first strike your out! Smacking a Teacher with a brick, a real sexual assault, guns, knives designed for lethal uses...
But a Zero Tolerance policy only makes people stupid!
"Preach the gospel; if necessary use words" is like saying "feed the poor and; if necessary use food."
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George, it is my civic duty to report you to the SB authorities. However my Christian duty tells me not to. SB is so strapped for cash that they might actually come looking for you just for the fines.
Lots to think about here. I wounder if there is an award...
My Friends Call Me Stew!Post Thanks / Like - 0 Thanks, 2 Laughing
Do it! It'll be fun!George, it is my civic duty to report you to the SB authorities. However my Christian duty tells me not to. SB is so strapped for cash that they might actually come looking for you just for the fines.
Lots to think about here. I wounder if there is an award...
Rob Bell, Love WinsSo when the gospel is diminished to a question of whether or not a person will “get into heaven,” that reduces the good news to a ticket, a way to get past the bouncer and into the club. The good news is better than that.
George, it is my civic duty to report you to the SB authorities. However my Christian duty tells me not to. SB is so strapped for cash that they might actually come looking for you just for the fines.
Lots to think about here. I wounder if there is an award...
I'm still trying to figure out what George was doing in San Bernardino Co. To the best of my knowledge, the only Marine base in the county is at Barstow - if that was the case, don't do anything else to him. He's suffered enough.
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Hello! 29 Palms? or The Stumps as we call it.
http://www.marines.mil/unit/29palms/pages/default.aspx
Largest (land area) Marine Base in the Marine Corps! 956 sq. mi. of Live Fire Exercise! You can fire everything but Nukes there! And because of that, it shouldn't matter what branch of the Service a person is in, because ALL the Services train there at least twice a year for CAX (Combined Arms Exercise)
Stretches from just North of Interstate 10 to Interstate 40. If you were dropped of in the middle you wouldn't be able to walk to civilization without dying in the Summer or the Winter.
How long have you lived in California???
Bartsow would have been Shangri-La compared to Twentynine Palms!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"Preach the gospel; if necessary use words" is like saying "feed the poor and; if necessary use food."
Got stranded in Amboy for a day or so 15 years ago. I must agree that Barstow is Shangri-La by comparison.Hello! 29 Palms? or The Stumps as we call it.
http://www.marines.mil/unit/29palms/pages/default.aspx
Largest (land area) Marine Base in the Marine Corps! 956 sq. mi. of Live Fire Exercise! You can fire everything but Nukes there! And because of that, it shouldn't matter what branch of the Service a person is in, because ALL the Services train there at least twice a year for CAX (Combined Arms Exercise)
Stretches from just North of Interstate 10 to Interstate 40. If you were dropped of in the middle you wouldn't be able to walk to civilization without dying in the Summer or the Winter.
How long have you lived in California???
Bartsow would have been Shangri-La compared to Twentynine Palms!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Ahhh, the thriving metropolis of Amboy! Have to go through there every year we go to the USMC Ball in Laughlin, or anytime we go to my brother in laws in Prescott.
"Preach the gospel; if necessary use words" is like saying "feed the poor and; if necessary use food."
That's the place. They were out of gas and so was I. i was driving from Flagstaff to Sacramento and there was a huge accident on 40 so we were detoured through Amboy.Ahhh, the thriving metropolis of Amboy! Have to go through there every year we go to the USMC Ball in Laughlin, or anytime we go to my brother in laws in Prescott.
You can be right or you can be in relationship
Closest gas is Ludlow CA, the way most people go it 46 miles, there is a short cut that is only 28 miles but you gotta know it.
"Preach the gospel; if necessary use words" is like saying "feed the poor and; if necessary use food."
I like the idea of finding a punishment that fits the kid. Not a punishment that fits the crime, because it is not as effective as a punishment that fits the kids. But most of the time you can not do this unless in a teacher setting.
"Means we use must be as pure as the ends we seek."
I have an "out-of-the-box" approach. I am of the opinion that we do students a disservice when we put priorities on certain things in school as "requirements" and then act as though the other stuff is "extra" or "not as important"--especially as we move past basics such as basic math and enough reading to be functionally literate.
Hasn't God made us all to be unique individuals? Some people are simply better at some things than others--even when the people are in the same family. For instance, my brother and I, who were just 3 years separated in high school, had different areas of academic interest. He preferred biology and other sciences, while I liked history. He went on to be a high school biology teacher; I went on to be a pastor. Honestly, I have never understood algebraic equations, but just as honestly, I haven't needed them as a Pastor. I never really needed them in college, and am thankful that I didn't encounter classes where they were required, because I likely would not have graduated.
In the case of the baseball player, I think it is a disservice to him to disqualify him from being able to play baseball because of marginal academics. If baseball is what he is good at, why punish him by taking away what he is good at if he might not be able to memorize Shakespeare? Granted, there are different situations for different people, but it seems that by and large we are trying to fit as many people into a certain mold that says each person must have a certain amount of core curriculum that includes algebra, geometry, foreign language, chemistry, biology, health, physical education, art, music, etc..., why do we expect that all students will have an aptitude for all of these different things?
My thought is this: If it is something that is sponsored by the school, it should count as part of the curriculum. In other words, there should be no extra curricular activities. It seems odd to me that we have both curricular physical education requirements and math requirements, but if a person excels in physical education and can't grasp algebra, that person can be kept from playing a sport. Yet if a person is a total klutz when it comes to doing physical education, he or she won' be kept out of advanced math if he or she can't pass physical education class.
I say that if the school is going to have a baseball team, then baseball should be part of the elective physical education curriculum--even if the baseball is interscholastic.
Here's another one that baffles me: oftentimes music and art are required for graduation from high school. The person could be gifted musically, but not comprehend chemistry, and therefore be kept from being part of an extra-curricular school musical. I think that school plays (including musicals) ought to be part of the curriculum if the school is going to sponsor them.
I realize that this has gone far away from the original question of the thread, but it seems to me that all of this goes along with the "zero tolerance" policies; one mess-up, and we'll suspend you or take something away from you that you're good at.
Granted, there are a LOT of students, and there need to be rules in order to keep order (and often to keep safety), but (IMHO) it's time for us to re-look at how education is done, and find ways to help young people excel at whatever they can do best, regardless of if it fits in with the "core curriculum" that intellectual educators feel must be mastered by all students in order to consider the students to be successful.
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Lived in SoCal too long to have made that kind of mistake, especially since we go through 'the Stumps' (as you call it) several times years on the way to and from Laughlin.Hello! 29 Palms? or The Stumps as we call it.
http://www.marines.mil/unit/29palms/pages/default.aspx
Largest (land area) Marine Base in the Marine Corps! 956 sq. mi. of Live Fire Exercise! You can fire everything but Nukes there! And because of that, it shouldn't matter what branch of the Service a person is in, because ALL the Services train there at least twice a year for CAX (Combined Arms Exercise)
Stretches from just North of Interstate 10 to Interstate 40. If you were dropped of in the middle you wouldn't be able to walk to civilization without dying in the Summer or the Winter.
How long have you lived in California???
Bartsow would have been Shangri-La compared to Twentynine Palms!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The garden spot of the western world. A weak defense for the blunder is that big Navy Credit Union sign just before the Amboy/Laughlin turnoff.
Somehow I had gotten the idea that you Marine time was spent enjoying the cool ocean breezes of Pendleton.
Amboy - what a place. Some friends used to fly over there for breakfast - just land on 66 and taxi off onto that huge lot by the cafe. One of them used to like to fly to Catalina until he nearly bought the farm in a near miss around LAX and swore never again.
Pete, most of the curriculum imbalance teachers deal with is dumped on 'em by legislators and media types who are convinced that all students can graduate with honors from Harvard if we just set the standards high enough. One of the principal victims of this idiocy has been vocational ed - everytime the 'educational reformers' get busy they want to pile on more academics and cut voc ed.
Reminds me of someone who said that a society that esteems its philosophers more highly than its plumbers (or vice versa) will find that neither its theories or its pipes hold water.
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The point is (and I think that we are probably fairly close to agreement on this) that the "powers that be" generally value intellectual education over practical, physical, or artistic educations. Whether the main impetus for these priorities comes from "legislators and media types" or from "intellectual types" who inhabit he faculties and administrations of increasingly secular humanistic universities, it is the young people who excel in things other than academics who suffer (and who will continue to suffer unless and until changes are made to the current system).
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