Columbus Day

[John Dahl]

How many people take advantage of Columbus Day to commemorate the accomplishment and risk taking of Columbus and his exploration party?

How many folks get the day off?

Does anybody feel the day has become irrelevant as far as a holiday?

[Mike Schutz]

In the places where I have lived (not at present), it has served to celebrate the contributions of those of Italian heritage to the American story. So, significant there.

Also, nearly impossible to make your way around the North End of Boston on Columbus Day. (But worth it for a good cannoli)

[Bill Morrison]

I didn't even realize tomorrow was Columbus Day till you posted this. Guess that says a lot. No special things happen where I am other than no mail delivery. It was celebrated more in the 1950's and early 1960's when I was an elementary student. I hope kids today at least hear the story as part of their education.

BILL

[John Kennedy]

A few years ago I was sufficiently inspired by Columbus Day to versify as follows:

Let's hear it for Christopher Columbus, Admiral of the Ocean Sea,
Who sailed from Spain to claim a new domain in the year before '93.
Wasn't sure where he was goin'; wasn't sure where he'd been -
Sailed all around, sailed up and down away back when.

Well, he thought he had landed near India, or maybe China perhaps.
The natives were tame and Christopher gained great fame.
Wasn't sure where he was goin'; wasn't sure where he'd been-
Sailed up and down and sailed all around, away back when.

A good friend who is Italian American commented that the nice thing about CC was that the good stuff could be attributed to Italia and the other could be blamed on Ferdinand and Isabella.

As one who is solidly Scots Irish, I need to remind one and all that CC was third in line behind the Vikings and (trumpets please) that ancient Irish saint, Brendan the Navigator. Erin go bragh.

[Pete Vecchi]

The holiday has become irrelevant except for employees of the government. When the Martin Luther King holiday was established, many entities (including schools) began replacing the Columbus Day holiday-off to the MLK holiday.

[Susan Unger]

When I was teaching it was made into an Inservice Day. The kids got it off as a once a month three day weekend and I got an inservice day.

I remember at Olivet, we had to go to school on Labor Day and got Columbus Day off.

It's Thanksgiving Day in Canada.

My political activist friend will enjoy the extra day to protest and will tell all the kids she knows how Columbus is a person of hate.

And then there are the Columbus Day sales...that has to count for something, right?

[Peggy Gray]

Of course it's irrelevant to most people, other than a federal holiday--and we all know you can't rescind those. How about changing it to "Heritage Day"? Each group (or individual, for that matter) can celebrate heritage (national, ethnic, religious, family, community, etc.) as desired. Or just go buy a new car, whatever.

[Jim Chabot]

Of course it's irrelevant to most people, other than a federal holiday--and we all know you can't rescind those. How about changing it to "Heritage Day"? Each group (or individual, for that matter) can celebrate heritage (national, ethnic, religious, family, community, etc.) as desired. Or just go buy a new car, whatever.

Or a new house? Today will be an excellent day to buy a new house!

[Wilson Deaton]

I hope kids today at least hear the story as part of their education.

BILL

My wife's kindergarten class will be introduced to it today including the old rhyme, "In 1492, Columbus sailed the ocean blue."

Wilson

[Jim Franklin]

Some years back I read an editorial by a Lakota Sioux who after research had found out the following facts about Colombus. That he was well acquainted enough with the Geography of Marco Polos travels and experience to know that he was not trying to get to India because that area at the time was called Hindustan. That he called the natives that met him "Ninos del Deos" meaning "Children of God." That as time went on the phrase evolved into "Indios" from which we now have "Indian" which has absolutely nothing to do with India. This is a more accurate account that the popular idea that the natives were called "Indian" because he thought he had reached India.

Enough research has been done into artifacts and writings to prove that Colombus was a "Johnny come lately" who just had a better press agent compared to the much earlier voyages of the Norsemen on the east coast and Japanese, Chinese and Russians on the west coast so that the celebration of Colombus has diminished in popularity in general but still a big deal in Italian homes and communities.

[Billy Cox]

How many people take advantage of Columbus Day to commemorate the accomplishment and risk taking of Columbus and his exploration party?

How many folks get the day off?

Does anybody feel the day has become irrelevant as far as a holiday?

I find it remarkable how much the 'official story' has changed since I was a wide-eyed youngster thinking that Columbus was a real-life superhero. This is only one of many stories that is told quite differently now.

[Shea Zellweger]

If I remember the day, I try to remember it in its conquest of the beginning of a period of immoral and unethical conquest of native peoples in the name of God, and the fact that subjugation of indigenous Americans still has not completely ended... so celebrate probably isn't the best word.

[Billy Cox]

If I remember the day, I try to remember it in its conquest of the beginning of a period of immoral and unethical conquest of native peoples in the name of God, and the fact that subjugation of indigenous Americans still has not completely ended... so celebrate probably isn't the best word.

The indigenous Americans were already busy killing each other and despoiling the land before the Europeans arrived. The newcomers simply took it to a higher scale.

[Shea Zellweger]

The indigenous Americans were already busy killing each other and despoiling the land before the Europeans arrived. The newcomers simply took it to a higher scale.

That's kinda like saying "the men in question were already engaged in a fist fight when the police arrived, so we consider the shooting justified," except not quite, because at least the police might be within their jurisdiction.

[Billy Cox]

That's kinda like saying "the men in question were already engaged in a fist fight when the police arrived, so we consider the shooting justified," except not quite, because at least the police might be within their jurisdiction.

Agree...I just find the typical narratives a bit to simplistic. It's not a good guys/bad guys thing so much as bad guys being paved under by new bad guys with superior methods of killing.

[Todd Erickson]

I haven't worked at a place that got columbus day off in the last decade.

This severely cramps my ability to take slaves and hand out pox blankets, I tell you what.

[Hal Paul]

I find it remarkable how much the 'official story' has changed since I was a wide-eyed youngster thinking that Columbus was a real-life superhero. This is only one of many stories that is told quite differently now.

When I was in elementary school in the early '70s I got the superhero version of Columbus, the first challenge to that was from my Dad who spent his formative years in a community settled predominantly by Swedish immigrants. When Dad was in school the principle emphasis of Columbus day was that Columbus was a latecomer and that Scandinavian explorers had beat him by half a millennia. That was my first introduction to Leif Ericson and that history is as much about the perspective of the historian as it is about events.

[John Reilly]

More than 47% of Americans believe that Columbus discovered America. Another unknown, undiscovered percentage are unbelievers.
My wife is a teacher and she discovered she had school today. The children discovered Columbus on the school bulletin board and discovered his fascinating journey. But the teachers and student discovered that they have election day off since we vote in the schools we discovered that it is best to cancel school on election day due to the intense traffic. I did take the day off and had some Italian food and went for a brief sail on my sailboat. I discovered it was too cold to be out on the open sea.

[Steven Burton]

Some years back I read an editorial by a Lakota Sioux who after research had found out the following facts about Colombus. That he was well acquainted enough with the Geography of Marco Polos travels and experience to know that he was not trying to get to India because that area at the time was called Hindustan. That he called the natives that met him "Ninos del Deos" meaning "Children of God." That as time went on the phrase evolved into "Indios" from which we now have "Indian" which has absolutely nothing to do with India. This is a more accurate account that the popular idea that the natives were called "Indian" because he thought he had reached India.

Enough research has been done into artifacts and writings to prove that Colombus was a "Johnny come lately" who just had a better press agent compared to the much earlier voyages of the Norsemen on the east coast and Japanese, Chinese and Russians on the west coast so that the celebration of Colombus has diminished in popularity in general but still a big deal in Italian homes and communities.

Have you read the book 1421?

[Jim Franklin]

Steven Burton, No, I have not read 1421.

[Greg Farra]

Well, I live in Columbus, Ohio, and it looked like everyone was working today. At least us who are in the 53 %.

[Nelson Bradford]

Yesterday was Columbus Day?
And here I thought all the banks plus the post office were closed in honor of my BD.
8-)

[Doug Ward]

I wandered around with my vial of syphilis, looking for an Indian to infect, but could not find any. Thought I found a forced march once, but it was only a parade. Day felt empty to me.

[John Dahl]

If I remember the day, I try to remember it in its conquest of the beginning of a period of immoral and unethical conquest of native peoples in the name of God, and the fact that subjugation of indigenous Americans still has not completely ended... so celebrate probably isn't the best word.

This is the kind of thinking that continues to foster the mindset of victimhood that has crippled much of the native population. Has there been a people group during the course of history that hasn't been treated immorally or unethically at one time or another? That type of treatment towards our fellow man is always wrong. But handing people the crutch of victim status through always telling them how poorly their ancestors were treated is destructive in such unimaginable ways.

The absence of self worth and hopelessness on some of our reservations is crushing. The constant recitation of past offenses needs to be replaced with the message of the past is the past, and what are you going to do to help yourself and your family from here forward. And obviously the gospel message is integral to any hope of change and success.

[Shea Zellweger]

This is the kind of thinking that continues to foster the mindset of victimhood that has crippled much of the native population. Has there been a people group during the course of history that hasn't been treated immorally or unethically at one time or another? That type of treatment towards our fellow man is always wrong. But handing people the crutch of victim status through always telling them how poorly their ancestors were treated is destructive in such unimaginable ways.

I disagree. This has nothing to do with fostering a mindset of victimhood, but rather a refusal to memorialize wrongdoing. Almost every people group has indeed been treated immorally or unethically at one time or another, and most have gotten past that. Some of our more recent offenses as a species still have not been atoned for, but that is another story. the difference between the oppression of, say, Moslems in Europe, and oppression of Native Americans, is that Spain doesn't have a Philip III day which celebrates the people who expelled the Moslems. We, on the other hand, do have a holiday honoring the man who began the time-honored tradition of decimating native civilizations.

So I'm all for leaving the past in the past. But that's kind of hard to do when every year we insist on celebrating a man who is a symbol of that past.

The absence of self worth and hopelessness on some of our reservations is crushing. The constant recitation of past offenses needs to be replaced with the message of the past is the past, and what are you going to do to help yourself and your family from here forward. And obviously the gospel message is integral to any hope of change and success.

There are still ramifications of the European conquest of the Americas which have impact in the present. While I think US-Native relations have taken a turn for the better in recent years, there is still significant social stratification in many South American countries which is based on how pure one's European heritage is. This is not a recitation of past offenses, it is an acknowledgment of a legacy which continues to have a very real impact in the present. Just because you and I aren't personally feeling the effects does not make them any less real.

[John Dahl]

I disagree. This has nothing to do with fostering a mindset of victimhood, but rather a refusal to memorialize wrongdoing. Almost every people group has indeed been treated immorally or unethically at one time or another, and most have gotten past that. Some of our more recent offenses as a species still have not been atoned for, but that is another story. the difference between the oppression of, say, Moslems in Europe, and oppression of Native Americans, is that Spain doesn't have a Philip III day which celebrates the people who expelled the Moslems. We, on the other hand, do have a holiday honoring the man who began the time-honored tradition of decimating native civilizations

So I'm all for leaving the past in the past. But that's kind of hard to do when every year we insist on celebrating a man who is a symbol of that past.

Are you saying this type of treatment of others started with Columbus? I find that hard to believe. How can Columbus be blamed for anything that happened way past his lifetime? This idea that we can easily and simply attach blame to one person for an ancient past for the circumstances of today is beyond my acceptance. And by the way, since nobody alive today was present during Columbus's time, why are we so ready to believe the revisionist historians? But, even if what you say is true, as humans we all have moral failures. Everybody that is celebrated today has done evil. None of us is innocent. Why do we feel the need to distract from the accomplishments of others? Do you think the American landmass would still be as it was if not for Columbus? Do you think the outcome would have been different had it been anybody else but Columbus?

There are still ramifications of the European conquest of the Americas which have impact in the present. While I think US-Native relations have taken a turn for the better in recent years, there is still significant social stratification in many South American countries which is based on how pure one's European heritage is. This is not a recitation of past offenses, it is an acknowledgment of a legacy which continues to have a very real impact in the present. Just because you and I aren't personally feeling the effects does not make them any less real.

Of course there are still ramifications. That is my point. The ramifications are mostly caused by allowing oneself to be crippled by victim status. This principle is not limited to the color of one's skin though.

America has spent most of my lifetime wallowing in her guilt over the treatment of the native people, please tell me how that has positively impacted them as a society? It's all meaningless words and gestures simply because the only person that can effect change in a life is you. I would submit that this endless recitation of past grievances is a more damaging form of abuse and oppression than whatever it is that was done before all of our lifetimes. I myself have never received a third party apology that ever meant anything. In fact I have never received a first party apology that made me whole. Anytime I have ever been hurt or offended I have made myself whole with God through the act of forgiveness. The only thing an apology can do is to help bring reconciliation with your offender or abuser. In the case of Columbus and the others responsible for the oppression towards the natives, since they are dead, they can't be reconciled with anyway, so any apology cannot help those it's intended for. All it does is continue to make victims. But you're right in that just because you aren't personally feeling the effects doesn't make them any less real. That we can agree on.

[Steven Burton]

I wandered around with my vial of syphilis, looking for an Indian to infect, but could not find any. Thought I found a forced march once, but it was only a parade. Day felt empty to me.

Don't worry the English who landed on the eastern coast felt the same way, although when they did find them they tended to live with them than rather live with their European brothers and sisters.. Since the years between Columbus and the Pilgrims a nice little plague ravaged much of the eastern coast. There was a percent of like 95+percent of Native Americans in the Massachusetts area that where killed by the plague.

[Steven Burton]

Of course there are still ramifications. That is my point. The ramifications are mostly caused by allowing oneself to be crippled by victim status. This principle is not limited to the color of one's skin though.

You know I could have followed more if you didn't play the victim statues card so much. Its like you don't even care about those who are victimized and when they cry about you just say well stop being a victim. How does that work, if that is all you know? How do you pull someone up out this mind set when all they see is how other are taking advantage of them?

[John Dahl]

You know I could have followed more if you didn't play the victim statues card so much. Its like you don't even care about those who are victimized and when they cry about you just say well stop being a victim. How does that work, if that is all you know? How do you pull someone up out this mind set when all they see is how other are taking advantage of them?

All I can say to you is that generally speaking nobody is going to care for you as much as you care for yourself. That may sound harsh but that is reality. I don't deal in would've, should've, or could've, only what is.

[Steven Burton]

All I can say to you is that generally speaking nobody is going to care for you as much as you care for yourself. That may sound harsh but that is reality. I don't deal in would've, should've, or could've, only what is.

Shouldn't that be only what you perceive it to be?

[Ryan Scott]

Last year, or the year before (I forget which), I proposed changing the day to Colobus day, in honor an the cute, little primate. Who doesn't like monkeys? Nothing controversial there.

Happy Colobus Day everyone!

[Ryan Scott]

The absence of self worth and hopelessness on some of our reservations is crushing. The constant recitation of past offenses needs to be replaced with the message of the past is the past, and what are you going to do to help yourself and your family from here forward. And obviously the gospel message is integral to any hope of change and success.

I agree that victimhood gets us nowhere, but I do think we, as the dominant culture, have some obligation to memorialize what was lost as well as welcoming a people into our culture.

The native american peoples had a distinct way of life that clashed almost completely with the European way of life. Obviously one of them won out and Native Americans have really no choice but to participate - at the same time, we should be as supportive as we can in honoring a great loss.

I think we also face the dilemma of the dominant position. The message we espouse (sorry for your loss, but move on) might be the message that needs to be said - we're just not in a position to say it.

[Benjamin Burch]

Agree...I just find the typical narratives a bit to simplistic. It's not a good guys/bad guys thing so much as bad guys being paved under by new bad guys with superior methods of killing.

I would not go this far. There is a categorical difference between groups who live amongst each other fighting because of territorial and cultural differences (as the Natives were doing), and a foreign group coming in and exploiting as well as destroying both for the cause of conquest.

They're categorically different.

[Shea Zellweger]

Are you saying this type of treatment of others started with Columbus? I find that hard to believe.

why are we so ready to believe the revisionist historians?

Columbus began the subjugation of Native Americans by Europeans, yes. I'm sorry you find matters of historical fact to be hard to believe. In his Letter to King Ferdinand, columbus writes "As soon as I arrived in the Indies, in the first island which I found, I took some of the natives by force, in order that they might learn and might give me information of whatever there is in these parts." First thing. Very first thing he did in the new world was to take natives by force. Didn't bother stopping to have a friendly chat, or try and engage in communication of equals. No, he took natives by force, tried to make them understand him, and then utilized their superstitions against them.

Do you think the American landmass would still be as it was if not for Columbus? Do you think the outcome would have been different had it been anybody else but Columbus?

It's entirely possible. I don't think every sailor from Europe would be so inclined as to capture and torture natives before attempting to engage in reasonable discourse. If I'm wrong about that, heaven help us all...

But, even if what you say is true, as humans we all have moral failures. Everybody that is celebrated today has done evil. None of us is innocent. Why do we feel the need to distract from the accomplishments of others?

The accomplishment of Columbus wasn't one. He came to a land where people already lived, and where Europeans had already visited, took some of its inhabitants by force, pillaged the land, and brought the spoils back to Europe where he informed others that they could go and do the same. He didn't "discover" America, he didn't establish the first European colonies... he didn't even find what he set out to find in the first place (a westerly water route to Asia). Want to celebrate the discovery of America? Celebrate the Natives. Want to celebrate first European contact with America? Celebrate Leif Erickson. Want to celebrate the establishment of European Colonies in the New World? I think that's just as misguided as Columbus day, but if so, have a Roanoake day.

Of course there are still ramifications. That is my point. The ramifications are mostly caused by allowing oneself to be crippled by victim status. This principle is not limited to the color of one's skin though.

America has spent most of my lifetime wallowing in her guilt over the treatment of the native people,

In other words, you didn't read the rest of what I wrote, or you chose to ignore it, as I was pretty clear that I was not talking about the US, but rather the ongoing social stratification in the Latin South, based mostly on whether one is creole, mestizo, native, or some other race or combination of races. And yet you responded as though I had simply gone on talking about the US. Columbus' legacy is not a specifically US one. Columbus is much more directly tied to the Caribbean than to the North American mainland, and the impact of Columbus' so-called discovery was felt by folks from Canada to Cape Horn.

Why start this thread, John? You asked if anyone celebrated Columbus day, and then you stayed out of it until you found a post (mine) with which you disagreed. It's almost as though you began this conversation out of some desire to defend Columbus. Regardless of your reasons, suffice it to say that I am 100% convinced of my views in this matter, and I once again see little point in attempting reasonable discourse with someone whose views on reality are so set apart from my own that I often question whether we are looking at the same world. We're just not going to get anywhere.

[Jim Chabot]

It's entirely possible. I don't think every sailor from Europe would be so inclined as to capture and torture natives before attempting to engage in reasonable discourse. If I'm wrong about that, heaven help us all...

Isn't it more than possible Shea? Hasn't history proven this out? Columbus was of the pack of evil spaniards seeking to pillage, destroy, enslave and loot the continent. It seems that everywhere the Spanish touched down and controlled has produced a tribe of folks with a deep seated anger flowing through them. While the English and other european settlers produced no such anger, granted that the English did engage in the slave trade, still their relations with their fellow man were far superior to that of the Spanish.

As much as I recoil from the arguments that seek recompense for the treatment of the native populace and for slavery, there is no reasonable defense for Cristoforo Colombo. As to recompense and sorrow, John's right, they are all long since dead, let them sort it out among themselves.(I realize that you aren't necessarily saying this, I just threw it in as support for what John is saying.)

And yeah! I like the idea behind a Roanoake Day, although we would prefer "Plymouth Rock" day as all Americans know if only in their hearts that everything that is America, comes from Bristol County Massachusetts! Land of the fish and the cod, where the Cabot's speak only to the Lodges and the Lodges speak directly with God!

[Cam Pence]

Last year, or the year before (I forget which), I proposed changing the day to Colobus day, in honor an the cute, little primate. Who doesn't like monkeys? Nothing controversial there.

Happy Colobus Day everyone!

Perhaps we have different understandings of the words "cute" and "little". Now if you mean "scary" and "evil", then I think we are on the same page This dude looks like he is overseeing the construction of the third Death Star.....just sayin'

[Shea Zellweger]

Isn't it more than possible Shea? Hasn't history proven this out? Columbus was of the pack of evil spaniards seeking to pillage, destroy, enslave and loot the continent. It seems that everywhere the Spanish touched down and controlled has produced a tribe of folks with a deep seated anger flowing through them. While the English and other european settlers produced no such anger, granted that the English did engage in the slave trade, still their relations with their fellow man were far superior to that of the Spanish.

As much as I recoil from the arguments that seek recompense for the treatment of the native populace and for slavery, there is no reasonable defense for Cristoforo Colombo. As to recompense and sorrow, John's right, they are all long since dead, let them sort it out among themselves.(I realize that you aren't necessarily saying this, I just threw it in as support for what John is saying.)

I'd just reiterate here that the question at hand is not "should there be recompense for past wrongs?" but rather "should Christopher Columbus be celebrated?" And it appears to me that you have more or less reached the same conclusion in regard to that question- no, he should not.

And yeah! I like the idea behind a Roanoake Day, although we would prefer "Plymouth Rock" day as all Americans know if only in their hearts that everything that is America, comes from Bristol County Massachusetts!

Don't we already have a Plymouth Rock day? I'm pretty sure I celebrate that one with turkey and pie every November.
Speaking of which... I rescind my point about having a day to celebrate the "discovery" of the new world. We have one. It's Thanksgiving. And It's a far less controversial day for everyone but Detroit Lions' Fans.

[Jim Chabot]

Don't we already have a Plymouth Rock day? I'm pretty sure I celebrate that one with turkey and pie every November.
Speaking of which... I rescind my point about having a day to celebrate the "discovery" of the new world. We have one. It's Thanksgiving. And It's a far less controversial day for everyone but Detroit Lions' Fans.

No, no, no Shea, definitely not Plymouth Rock day, Thanksgiving is John Calvin Day! Thanksgiving is a celebration to commemorate John Calvin's founding of our country by way of instilling belief in God's supremacy, providence and sovereignty. The Puritans celebrated after making it through the winter and seeing that they were indeed kept safe in this new land by God's unbreakable hand of providence.

(Yes my tongue is firmly planted in my cheek.)

So lets get back to Plymouth Rock Day, I think it's a great idea, and maybe we could celebrate Revere and Adams day as well. It's important to remind our great land of our auspicious roots right here in the eastern part of this the great and noteworthy Commonwealth of Massachusetts. Here is where "America" begins!

Written from Norton, Massachusetts, on the edges of King Phillip's swamp and home to his former palace, er cave.

[Steven Burton]

Warning not sure about the language since I read this a while back:

founding of america