Tithing

[Peggy Gray]

This brings up an interesting point. I have been observing that "tithing" for many Christians (Nazarenes included) has just come to mean simply consistant giving, and not necessarily one tenth or more.

So peggy when you ask "how do people know how their tithe compares to the rest of the congregation's?" in gets me thinking about that.

I've found it a bit disturbing over the years to hear people say, "I'm the biggest tither" or "We tithe more than anybody else", etc. Does the pastor report the current standings, like baseball teams? Does the treasurer leak the information? Do they look at the financial report and do a mental estimate?

[Billy Cox]

I've found it a bit disturbing over the years to hear people say, "I'm the biggest tither" or "We tithe more than anybody else", etc. Does the pastor report the current standings, like baseball teams? Does the treasurer leak the information? Do they look at the financial report and do a mental estimate?

It wouldn't be so hard in a smaller church for one particular giver to notice that his/her giving is consistently a large chunk of the day's take. The 'giving facts' that are a staple in the bulletin also serve to let those who give have some idea of what 'share' of the giving comes from their bank account.

[Sarah Smith]

OK, bear with me here, this may be the dumbest question ever and you ALL know I can ask some dumb ones:

Why is the local church considered the temple to which we are to tithe?

It seems to me some folks are giving away much more than 10% but not to the local church. They seem to be giving it directly to the needy/programs/missions etc.

Is that not considered part of the tithe, and why not?

[Michael Flowers]

OK, bear with me here, this may be the dumbest question ever and you ALL know I can ask some dumb ones:

Why is the local church considered the temple to which we are to tithe?

It seems to me some folks are giving away much more than 10% but not to the local church. They seem to be giving it directly to the needy/programs/missions etc.

Is that not considered part of the tithe, and why not?

I think your question is a great one. Something that I thought about in connection to it is this: If they are truly giving to organizations that are doing the work of the Lord then fantastic (and yes, I could understand that as a tithe) however, if they are simply giving to charities/groups/ministries that only help to better the lives of people physically speaking (with no emphasis on the spiritual) then I would probably not consider that part of tithe.

[Sarah Smith]

Thanks!

When I posted I was thinking of dear friends who had to stop tithing in order to pay for a down's syndrome daughters care for a while. Also was thinking of dear friends who, when he developed a very violent and fast progressing form of dementia used their tithe money and all their savings, etc to pay for the 3 months he needed in a nursing home before he died.

Somehow I never felt it wrong to meet those needs. Or to buy someone a coat so they could work, or some food when needed, even if your only choice was to cut into your tithe money that month to do so.

[Michael Flowers]

Thanks!

When I posted I was thinking of dear friends who had to stop tithing in order to pay for a down's syndrome daughters care for a while. Also was thinking of dear friends who, when he developed a very violent and fast progressing form of dementia used their tithe money and all their savings, etc to pay for the 3 months he needed in a nursing home before he died.

Somehow I never felt it wrong to meet those needs. Or to buy someone a coat so they could work, or some food when needed, even if your only choice was to cut into your tithe money that month to do so.

I can't think of a better use of "tithe" money than for helping to meet the needs of God's faithful who are in desperate need. The early church used the money it collected to help meet the needs of people so I see no reason to condemn someone for not tithing to the church when they are still making an impact for God.

[Marsha Lynn]

... I see no reason to condemn someone for not tithing to the church when they are still making an impact for God.

I see no reason to condemn someone else for not giving at all. Why do so many of us feel compelled to apply the same standards to others as to ourselves and condemn anyone who doesn't measure up?

My husband and I tithe. All our tithe money goes to the local church. We then set aside extra money to support other charitable causes. It has never caused us financial hardship to do so. Even when we were newlyweds with very little money and plenty of debt, we weren't even close to being poor. Poverty has so much more to do with one's mindset than the balance in one's bank account.

We are blessed. Because of the blessings in our lives we have no experience from which to decide how much those in financial distress should contribute to others. How can I possibly speak to a situation I have never experienced? I think it's something every disciple of Jesus Christ has to work out for themselves.

We tithe -- on gross income -- and give beyond the tithe. And we have been blessed beyond measure. I can testify to that, but it's up to the person receiving that testimony to decide the best path for them. I can't say with confidence that God holds everyone to a standard that has always come easily to me but may be extremely difficult for others. There are too many other areas where I struggle with standards that seem trivial and obvious to others.

Marsha

[Michael Flowers]

I see no reason to condemn someone else for not giving at all. Why do so many of us feel compelled to apply the same standards to others as to ourselves and condemn anyone who doesn't measure up?

I hope you didn't misunderstand my statement. I was speaking as one who has heard someone say that a person wasn't qualified to be on the church board because they didn't tithe. I was merely trying to point out that there are those people who will condemn someone for not officially tithing on their income. I don't see a reason for that kind of behavior.

[Susan Unger]

I hope you didn't misunderstand my statement. I was speaking as one who has heard someone say that a person wasn't qualified to be on the church board because they didn't tithe. I was merely trying to point out that there are those people who will condemn someone for not officially tithing on their income. I don't see a reason for that kind of behavior.

I have heard that too and have been bothered by it. How does one know if another person tithes? One could give alot but still not be tithing but be giving less than a tithe. sigh.... It seemed awfully judgemental [in the situation of which I am thinking].

[Michael Flowers]

I have heard that too and have been bothered by it. How does one know if another person tithes? One could give alot but still not be tithing but be giving less than a tithe. sigh.... It seemed awfully judgemental [in the situation of which I am thinking].

Yea, in the instance I know of the gentleman actually didn't give at all. However, one of the other board members lived in Florida half the year. They preferred to have someone on the board who wasn't there half the time (at least) to someone who actually was there all the time.

[Susan Unger]

Yea, in the instance I know of the gentleman actually didn't give at all. However, one of the other board members lived in Florida half the year. They preferred to have someone on the board who wasn't there half the time (at least) to someone who actually was there all the time.

I don't agree with that at all. Annoying.

[Marsha Lynn]

Yea, in the instance I know of the gentleman actually didn't give at all. However, one of the other board members lived in Florida half the year. They preferred to have someone on the board who wasn't there half the time (at least) to someone who actually was there all the time.

So why is tithing a requirement for board membership? One reason, I suppose, would be that one shouldn't be making decisions for an organization in which one is not fully invested. But there are many organizations run by boards who do not contribute significantly to the organization out of their own pockets.

Another reason would be that tithing is a sign of spiritual maturity. However, there are many other signs of spiritual maturity that have a clearer mandate in the New Testament. And as long as we don't require people to submit a copy of their last tax return along with the acceptance of nomination, we don't know for sure who tithes and who doesn't anyway, right?

[Susan Unger]

Another reason would be that tithing is a sign of spiritual maturity.

This is what I have been told is the reason.

However, there are many other signs of spiritual maturity that have a clearer mandate in the New Testament. And as long as we don't require people to submit a copy of their last tax return along with the acceptance of nomination, we don't know for sure who tithes and who doesn't anyway, right?

But this is what I always think should be the obvious response instead.

[Kyle Borger]

I continue to stand by my position. If you believe you have to take control of your situation because you can't afford to obey God, then you are unaware of who God really is. In our most difficult of situations we need to continue to obey God and give God control of our lives. In the face of great difficulties we need to continue to trust God.

I understand that there are a great many situations where people feel that they can't tithe. Quite often they decide that they need the money more than the church. This isn't about the church needing money. It is a matter of living dependent upon God. The question isn't if the church can survive while you use money to fulfill a need. The question is if you are trusting God to provide the resources you need so that God will be glorified.

If the word tithe bothers you as a rule of the church, then focus on total surrender. If God directs you to give resources to hungry children in Africa as a way to live completely dependent upon God, then do it. If God directs you to give money to someone for their medical bills, then do it.

I think we have missed the community part of church. A part of the reason why we want to be good stewards with our resources is so that we can support our brothers and sisters who are in need even while they give sacrificially. Thinking of the woman with the alabaster jar.

My hope was that you would understand my position that tithing (total surrender) is an important step toward growing closer to God. I don't agree that tithing can be required any more than I agree that one can be forced to accept Jesus. All of our actions towards God must be because we want to do it because we love God. Tithing is often required for board membership because it is a sign of spiritual maturity. Yes, I know many of you disagree with that. I simply don't understand how it is that you do. Perhaps because you feel that the church as the organization is simply requiring people to feed it. I have pondered what a house church of 20 with no paid staff would do with tithing. It seems like they could do quite a bit in their community and for each other if they weren't spending so much money on a building and on paid clergy. The reality is that scenario greatly excites me. What if I just didn't give to the church at all and used my money to supply the resources for my ministry instead of relying on what little the church gives me? My resources for ministry would greatly multiply. But then I wouldn't be trusting God I would be the one in control. I suppose that is the entire issue for me, just who controls your resources? Is it your house or God's house? Your car or God's car? Your money or God's money? If all of our decisions are based on being a good steward of God's resources then we will probably be doing pretty good in terms of obeying God.

[Billy Cox]

So why is tithing a requirement for board membership? One reason, I suppose, would be that one shouldn't be making decisions for an organization in which one is not fully invested. But there are many organizations run by boards who do not contribute significantly to the organization out of their own pockets.

Another reason would be that tithing is a sign of spiritual maturity. However, there are many other signs of spiritual maturity that have a clearer mandate in the New Testament. And as long as we don't require people to submit a copy of their last tax return along with the acceptance of nomination, we don't know for sure who tithes and who doesn't anyway, right?

The first reason is more honest. The second self righteousness with a veneer of piety.

I am convinced that there is a giving threshold above which church leadership will never bother to consider whether it actually constitutes 10%. I daresay that if I write checks to the congregation totaling $10,000 in one year, they won't care whether that amount is 10% or 1%.

[Marsha Lynn]

The first reason is more honest. The second self righteousness with a veneer of piety.

I am convinced that there is a giving threshold above which church leadership will never bother to consider whether it actually constitutes 10%. I daresay that if I write checks to the congregation totaling $10,000 in one year, they won't care whether that amount is 10% or 1%.

So maybe it's less about tithing and more about being a committed donor?

[Michael Flowers]

The first reason is more honest. The second self righteousness with a veneer of piety.

I am convinced that there is a giving threshold above which church leadership will never bother to consider whether it actually constitutes 10%. I daresay that if I write checks to the congregation totaling $10,000 in one year, they won't care whether that amount is 10% or 1%.

I don't know. I think that if I found out that $10,000 was simply 1% I would probably really wish/hope that you would choose to do the 10% which would equate to $100,000. There's a lot that could be done with that kind of money coming in from just one person.

[Marsha Lynn]

I don't know. I think that if I found out that $10,000 was simply 1% I would probably really wish/hope that you would choose to do the 10% which would equate to $100,000. There's a lot that could be done with that kind of money coming in from just one person.

In a small church, I would expect that level of giving to bring way too much influence to the giver and kowtowing by leadership. I wonder how many individuals OR churches have the integrity to handle having a substantial portion of the church's income coming from one household. Would you be able to hold it loosely and grant such an individual the freedom to follow God's leading to another church if and when that time came?

Just wondering.

[Kyle Borger]

In a small church, I would expect that level of giving to bring way too much influence to the giver and kowtowing by leadership. I wonder how many individuals OR churches have the integrity to handle having a substantial portion of the church's income coming from one household. Would you be able to hold it loosely and grant such an individual the freedom to follow God's leading to another church if and when that time came?

Just wondering.

I have seen the impact of a person in the church who felt like they owned it due to their amount of contribution. I have also experienced churches that were rich. The church had many givers with deep pockets and their church was very beautiful. It was certainly a testament to the beauty that God provides. However, I did not experience much in terms of impact outside of their church walls. Sometimes it seems like a church needs to have a little bit less than they need so that the church is dependent upon God.

I was in another church that had more bills then money. The board decided on a priority list and their district budgets were above anything else because it was seen as the churches tithe and the board wanted to send a message to the entire church that we would trust in God to provide. There were bills that at times required delayed payment. There were times where we worked our way up the priority list to where we almost couldn't pay the pastors, but that Sunday brought in just enough. Over time with diligent attention to expenditures that church soon had built up a savings account and no longer had to live week to week.

I have played some scenarios through my head about a situation where a good tithing Nazarene runs into millions of dollars and just what they should do with that money. Ok, I was day dreaming! As I played out the scenario including my emotional responses to what was being done with my money and how other people reacted it was clear that too much money in one place would not be healthy. Perhaps that is why in some cases a tithe shouldn't just be seen as giving to a church, but in obeying God, our tithe should perhaps be given in many different ways.

Imagine if one person were able to pay for the construction of a large church building. If they were paying for everything would they be happy with carpet they don't like, or paint color or so forth? If you were paying for everything wouldn't you expect to have a voice in the decor? But should you? Would it be helpful? What if you had enough money to build an entire campground for your district? Should you?

While this person with many resources could certainly be a blessing to our church and/or denomination their generosity could stand in the way of our learning to depend on God and experiencing God's blessing. Certainly could give us pause to consider exactly how God wants us to manage his resources and perhaps look at tithing as something that is more than just giving 10% to the church as God's chosen source, but as a manner in which we continuously submit to the authority and lordship of Jesus Christ in our lives by giving God control of all the resources he has given us as we represent Christ each and every minute of every day.

[Peggy Gray]

So is there a difference between storehouse-tithing and just plain old tithing? Is the local church the storehouse?

[Michael Flowers]

In a small church, I would expect that level of giving to bring way too much influence to the giver and kowtowing by leadership. I wonder how many individuals OR churches have the integrity to handle having a substantial portion of the church's income coming from one household. Would you be able to hold it loosely and grant such an individual the freedom to follow God's leading to another church if and when that time came?

Just wondering.

Such a case would hurt, but if God was truly leading them to attend a different congregation then I would wish them the best. I must admit though that I would do everything I could to get them to stay (but I would do that with anyone).

For the record, I do have a family in my church that pretty much gives a quarter of the churches income. If they ever decided to leave, or when they eventually pass, the church had better have some other folks willing to give or it won't be financially viable in the present building.

[Sarah Smith]

This discussion makes me so glad we decided years ago to do our giving by cash so no one knows who gave it.

Sometimes we've been the tiny mite givers without anyone censuring us for it.

Sometimes we've been the one's blessed to do more. Nobody knew so they couldn't kowtow to us.

And we've slept well, knowing we were square with God.

[Billy Cox]

I have played some scenarios through my head about a situation where a good tithing Nazarene runs into millions of dollars and just what they should do with that money. Ok, I was day dreaming! As I played out the scenario including my emotional responses to what was being done with my money and how other people reacted it was clear that too much money in one place would not be healthy. Perhaps that is why in some cases a tithe shouldn't just be seen as giving to a church, but in obeying God, our tithe should perhaps be given in many different ways.

I think that an extreme windfall is far more destructive (potentially) to a congregation than extreme scarcity.

[David Graham]

I think that an extreme windfall is far more destructive (potentially) to a congregation than extreme scarcity.

Possibly, but I'd still prefer a situation where we encourage generousity in giving whether that amount is small or large.

In the case of a large gift, where the church receives more than they need, perhaps the church should carry on this same principle by giving to others..... perhaps (and BTW this might be a challenge for some) giving a sizable gift to a small struggling congregation of another denomination. Just a thought.

[Rich Schmidt]

I hope you didn't misunderstand my statement. I was speaking as one who has heard someone say that a person wasn't qualified to be on the church board because they didn't tithe. I was merely trying to point out that there are those people who will condemn someone for not officially tithing on their income. I don't see a reason for that kind of behavior.

You do realize that this requirement is laid out in the Manual, right? From paragraph 127:

We direct our local churches to elect as church officers active members of the local church who profess the experience of entire sanctification and whose lives bear public witness to the grace of God that calls us to a holy life; who are in harmony with the doctrines, polity, and practices of the Church of the Nazarene; and who support the local church faithfully in attendance and with tithes and offerings.

It's not a matter of condemning someone. It's a matter of following our polity as laid out in the Manual.

Of course, that raises the question of whether or not the person who is out of state half the year qualifies under the "attendance" stipulation...

[Michael Flowers]

You do realize that this requirement is laid out in the Manual, right? From paragraph 127:



It's not a matter of condemning someone. It's a matter of following our polity as laid out in the Manual.

Of course, that raises the question of whether or not the person who is out of state half the year qualifies under the "attendance" stipulation...

I do realize this. However, the church where this took place was constantly complaining about the younger people not stepping up and taking leadership. This young gentleman (around 30 years old) did all that he could to support the church, but because there was no visible record of his giving he was automatically excluded (he could have given cash and no one would know, or his wife could have given tithe for both of them, but no one bothered to ask those questions). I just found it frustrating because they then chose to elect a lady as a trustee who they knew every year wasn't (and isn't) going to be around from October to May (she was the Sunday School Superintendent to boot and wasn't even around to be part of the Annual Church Meeting). There can be exceptions to Manual statements, it is just a matter of what you value. I value presence and service in the church over tithing.

[Rich Schmidt]

I do realize this. However, the church where this took place was constantly complaining about the younger people not stepping up and taking leadership. This young gentleman (around 30 years old) did all that he could to support the church, but because there was no visible record of his giving he was automatically excluded (he could have given cash and no one would know, or his wife could have given tithe for both of them, but no one bothered to ask those questions). I just found it frustrating because they then chose to elect a lady as a trustee who they knew every year wasn't (and isn't) going to be around from October to May (she was the Sunday School Superintendent to boot and wasn't even around to be part of the Annual Church Meeting). There can be exceptions to Manual statements, it is just a matter of what you value. I value presence and service in the church over tithing.

That may have been a poor choice on their part, but it still doesn't sound like condemnation to me. Perhaps they excluded him from consideration with great sadness.

You're obviously familiar with the situation, so if you say he was excluded in a condemning sort of way, I take your word for it. I just don't want to see us assume that deciding someone isn't currently qualified for a particular leadership role = condemnation. Some make that leap. I don't want to see us do it.

[Rich Schmidt]

I think that an extreme windfall is far more destructive (potentially) to a congregation than extreme scarcity.

I'll willingly accept that potential, thanks!

[Gary Creely]

The first reason is more honest. The second self righteousness with a veneer of piety.

I am convinced that there is a giving threshold above which church leadership will never bother to consider whether it actually constitutes 10%. I daresay that if I write checks to the congregation totaling $10,000 in one year, they won't care whether that amount is 10% or 1%.

This is actually quite true in many settings. If you have a person who is contributing 10k a year and is nominated to the church board, but you are certain (which is difficult) that 10k does not represent a tithe, most pastors are not going to run the risk of losing that person and the 10k they contribute in order to follow the letter of the manual.

Add to that if somebody is tithing 10k that means they are making 100k, and it would be difficult to know wether they are making 100k or 300k a year.

[Gary Creely]

I think that an extreme windfall is far more destructive (potentially) to a congregation than extreme scarcity.

I see where you are coming from here, but I feel l like you have overstated you point. Extreme scarcity equals the church is likely to close soon, so although a big windfall can be problematic, closing a church is terminal.

[Michael Flowers]

That may have been a poor choice on their part, but it still doesn't sound like condemnation to me. Perhaps they excluded him from consideration with great sadness.

You're obviously familiar with the situation, so if you say he was excluded in a condemning sort of way, I take your word for it. I just don't want to see us assume that deciding someone isn't currently qualified for a particular leadership role = condemnation. Some make that leap. I don't want to see us do it.

I never intended to say that they had condemned him. I meant more that often times it seems that we can tend toward a condemning attitude if someone isn't doing all of the things that we feel are important for a Christian. I also know the individual who brought up the fact in this particular instance and that is exactly how his phrasing/tone came across.

[Larry Parsons]

This is actually quite true in many settings. If you have a person who is contributing 10k a year and is nominated to the church board, but you are certain (which is difficult) that 10k does not represent a tithe, most pastors are not going to run the risk of losing that person and the 10k they contribute in order to follow the letter of the manual.

Add to that if somebody is tithing 10k that means they are making 100k, and it would be difficult to know wether they are making 100k or 300k a year.

Gary, your post remind of a board member I had that wasn't paying his tithes according to some other board members however mr smith (not is real name) would place $300 in the overing place each week. These other board members kept pushing for me to talk to mr smith about paying his tithes. So one day I got to talk to mr Smith about not paying his tithes. He told me his pay check wasn't very big $75.00 a week he was given money through his expense account which was quite large I don't think the people who was bugging me did realize what he was doing. I remember another time at other church a family begin to attend our church and the Father told me I won't be paying 10% to the church but I will be giving I told that Ok That man help our church to grow he brought in people that we could have never reach. He even provide me with a Job which help a lot. If told he had to pay 10% if he wanted to be a member of the church. We would have lost good evangelist because his wife became a Nazarene and for awhile she had full slate.
Thanks
LP

[Sarah Smith]

I remember when our industry took a downturn which meant the local church was struggling financially.

An evangelist came through and told us we needed to continue our "tithes" at the same level as before lay offs and wage cuts.

The very next Sunday our pastor stood up and wept, telling us we were under no such bondage. As he put it, 10% of nothing is nothing.

Let me tell you under his leadership people dug deep, kept that church going strong, and today that little church of around 75 is a church of around 1700.

[Billy Cox]

I see where you are coming from here, but I feel l like you have overstated you point. Extreme scarcity equals the church is likely to close soon, so although a big windfall can be problematic, closing a church is terminal.

True. 'Extreme' is a bridge too far.

Here is my reasoning: In all but the most deprived community conexts, scarcity typically results from foolish leadership. Since a financial windfall compounds leadership challenges without imparting additional wisdom, the organization is at greater risk as a result.

There is a reason why most lottery winners end up broke. If one cannot manage small money, big money will just be a bigger fail.