Most Offensive Lyric in a Traditional Hymn?

[Glenn Messer]

"How can I be lonely, when I've Jesus only....." Well, duh! Let me explain the ways......

[Susan Unger]

I liked this one. Although that vibrating sound there at the bridge was a little too spooky for me.

This was too painful to listen to for more than a few seconds. ouch!

[Gina Stevenson]

Guys, I've not bothered hooking my old speakers up to this new thing yet (that I got sans add-ons) ... but think this thread is going to push me over the edge. Then I can listen to all this stuff here!

[still have to solve that video problem yet, tho', where in playing them, the screen inside the box blanks out white, when it is full/colorful prior to clicking "play." An MSIE problem, or what? Still want to make system back-ups ~~ got DVDs last pm, while out just a short bit to get something salty for my throat ~~ before DL'ing Firefox, in case that is it]

ETA: Or, I could just listen on my tiny tab, like I did re the deer signs ... that was a hoot!

ETA #2: OK, I listened to the two in question above. The second was a wee bit draggy, tho' I would not want it ramped up a whole lot more, as it is a bit contemplative, re a vision, and all.

[Lucas Finch]

This was too painful to listen to for more than a few seconds. ouch!

Haha! I love this song! Jars of Clay is one of my favorite bands, and Be Thou My Vision is one of my favorite hymns! Although this certainly does not mean that they will cover the song well, I think that they did. But we all have our unique tastes.

[Roland Hearn]

We were singing "I will Praise Him" a little while ago and I was reminded of the difficulty I have with the line: "Praise the Lamb for sinners slain." I can never make sense of that. To me it sounds like we are praising him for the slaying of sinners. I understand poetic licence but that is going to be a stretch for most who are not use to the concept.

[Gina Stevenson]

We were singing "I will Praise Him" a little while ago and I was reminded of the difficulty I have with the line: "Praise the Lamb for sinners slain." I can never make sense of that. To me it sounds like we are praising him for the slaying of sinners. I understand poetic licence but that is going to be a stretch for most who are not use to the concept.

Perhaps that's because there should be a grammatical mark there after "Lamb" ... then it's a bit more obvious that the words that follow are descriptive rather than telling what "the Lamb" has done.

[hmmm ... wonder if there is that comma in the hymnal ... too lazy now to dig in my collection & find out. ]

[Peggy Gray]

I'm still trying to think of any that are literally "offensive". This isn't a traditional hymn, but I can remember people bothered by the children's song, "Be Careful Little Eyes..." etc., the lyrics, "For the Father up above is looking down in love." Some people said it gave the impression of God waiting to pounce if you made the wrong move. I, however, never saw it that way. I was never afraid I'd make my Dad angry; I was afraid that I'd disappoint him. If he'd ever said, "I'm so disappointed in you", I don't know if I would have survived it. Therefore, I looked (and look) at those lyrics as not wanting to disappoint the Father--after all, He is looking down "in love".

[Susan Unger]

Haha! I love this song! Jars of Clay is one of my favorite bands, and Be Thou My Vision is one of my favorite hymns! Although this certainly does not mean that they will cover the song well, I think that they did. But we all have our unique tastes.

I like Jars of Clay, too, but not that song AT ALL.

[Susan Unger]

Perhaps that's because there should be a grammatical mark there after "Lamb" ... then it's a bit more obvious that the words that follow are descriptive rather than telling what "the Lamb" has done.

[hmmm ... wonder if there is that comma in the hymnal ... too lazy now to dig in my collection & find out. ]

Don't recall there teings a comma.

[Jon Twitchell]

I'd stay in the garden with Him, though the night around me is falling.

But he bids me go with a voice of woe

Friend,

Wes

It was only a couple of years ago that someone explained "In the Garden" to me... and I realized that I'd never fully understood the song until then. (And then I felt foolish for having missed what finally seemed obvious.)

The song is written from the perspective of Mary Magdalene at the empty tomb (John 20).

"He bids me go" is a direct reference to John 20:17 - "17 Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

We generally over-personalize the song (since it's written in the first person), and then the lyrics don't make as much sense.

[Shea Zellweger]

I'm still trying to think of any that are literally "offensive". This isn't a traditional hymn, but I can remember people bothered by the children's song, "Be Careful Little Eyes..." etc., the lyrics, "For the Father up above is looking down in love." Some people said it gave the impression of God waiting to pounce if you made the wrong move. I, however, never saw it that way. I was never afraid I'd make my Dad angry; I was afraid that I'd disappoint him. If he'd ever said, "I'm so disappointed in you", I don't know if I would have survived it. Therefore, I looked (and look) at those lyrics as not wanting to disappoint the Father--after all, He is looking down "in love".

Raffi has prevented me from ever being able to sing that song with anything that resembles seriousness.

[Marsha Lynn]

I'm still trying to think of any that are literally "offensive". This isn't a traditional hymn, but I can remember people bothered by the children's song, "Be Careful Little Eyes..." etc., the lyrics, "For the Father up above is looking down in love." Some people said it gave the impression of God waiting to pounce if you made the wrong move.

I'm one of those people. It took me a long time to get past my early view of God as disgusted by me and my constant failures. More than once I wondered if the only reason I wasn't included in John 3:16 as an exception to God's love for the world was because I wasn't worth the notice. I looked right past the "in love" phrase in the "Be Careful" song. After all, there were plenty of adults in my world who, if pressed, would tell you they loved me, but they certainly didn't seem to like me very well. Mostly, they wanted me to stay out of their way and were quick to chastise me if my feet and hands weren't extremely careful to avoid displeasing them.

What blessing the years have brought as my view of God has evolved from a sharp-eyed "Father up above" watching and waiting to toss me aside for the least mistake to the "Poppa God" who values and desires fellowship with this imperfect lump of clay as no one else ever has.

Marsha

[Lucas Finch]

I like Jars of Clay, too, but not that song AT ALL.

Just because I'm curious . . .

Is it the song, or their version of it? If it is the song, is it the lyrics, music (meter, melody, etc.), or both? Not that it really matters. I'm just wondering, as I have never heard anyone (young or old) say that they do not like "Be Thou My Vision" (although I am sure that there are probably others out there, some of whom may comment as such due to my post).

[Billy Cox]

I'm still trying to think of any that are literally "offensive". This isn't a traditional hymn, but I can remember people bothered by the children's song, "Be Careful Little Eyes..." etc., the lyrics, "For the Father up above is looking down in love." Some people said it gave the impression of God waiting to pounce if you made the wrong move. I, however, never saw it that way. I was never afraid I'd make my Dad angry; I was afraid that I'd disappoint him. If he'd ever said, "I'm so disappointed in you", I don't know if I would have survived it. Therefore, I looked (and look) at those lyrics as not wanting to disappoint the Father--after all, He is looking down "in love".

'Offensive' is too strong a word. 'Silly' or 'cringeworthy' is more descriptive of the examples given in this thread or the one about praise choruses.

[Billy Cox]

Perhaps that's because there should be a grammatical mark there after "Lamb" ... then it's a bit more obvious that the words that follow are descriptive rather than telling what "the Lamb" has done.

[hmmm ... wonder if there is that comma in the hymnal ... too lazy now to dig in my collection & find out. ]

I don't think a comma would help.

[Susan Unger]

Just because I'm curious . . .

Is it the song, or their version of it? If it is the song, is it the lyrics, music (meter, melody, etc.), or both? Not that it really matters. I'm just wondering, as I have never heard anyone (young or old) say that they do not like "Be Thou My Vision" (although I am sure that there are probably others out there, some of whom may comment as such due to my post).

I like Jars of Clay and I like Be Thou My Vision [although, I find that title confusing yet it hasn't prevented me from liking and playing it alot] I just don't like their rendition of it. It sounds so gravily and dirge like that I can't take it.

In my mind it should be more ethereal like this video -

[Lucas Finch]

I like Jars of Clay and I like Be Thou My Vision [although, I find that title confusing yet it hasn't prevented me from liking and playing it alot] I just don't like their rendition of it. It sounds so gravily and dirge like that I can't take it.

In my mind it should be more ethereal like this video -

Fair enough. This one's a little too ethereal for my taste. I do like the following version by Alison Krauss, though:

[Susan Unger]

Lucas, I really liked the Allison Krause version. It is how it should be done IMHO.

[Gina Stevenson]

I don't think a comma would help.

Well, often where there is a comma, it gives pause enough that an explanatory parenthetical phrase could also be added (even if silently in one's mind), such as this:

"Praise the Lamb for sinners slain." (for those slain sinners, NOT this, as has been suggested earlier), but this:

"Praise the Lamb, (who was) for sinners slain."

That was my thinking ... that what follows "praise the Lamb" describes that Lamb/what He did ... following a pausative comma.

[Wes Smith]

It was only a couple of years ago that someone explained "In the Garden" to me... and I realized that I'd never fully understood the song until then. (And then I felt foolish for having missed what finally seemed obvious.)

The song is written from the perspective of Mary Magdalene at the empty tomb (John 20).

"He bids me go" is a direct reference to John 20:17 - "17 Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

We generally over-personalize the song (since it's written in the first person), and then the lyrics don't make as much sense.

Sounds like someone's explanation. Can't say that I buy it. Is that what the author said?

Friend,

Wes

[Jim Chabot]

Sounds like someone's explanation. Can't say that I buy it. Is that what the author said?

Friend,

Wes

Yes, this is the author's story, the song came as a vision. Maybe better to hear his actual words.

One day in March, 1912, I was seated in the dark room, where I kept my photographic equipment and organ. I
drew my Bible toward me; it opened at my favorite chapter, John 20-whether by chance or inspiration let each
reader decide. That meeting of Jesus and Mary had lost none of its power to charm.

As I read it that day, I seemed to be part of the scene. I became a silent witness to that dramatic moment in
Mary's life, when she knelt before her Lord, and cried, "Rabboni!"

My hands were resting on the Bible while I stared at the light blue wall. As the light faded, I seemed to be
standing at the entrance of a garden, looking down a gently winding path, shaded by olive branches. A woman
in white, with head bowed, hand clasping her throat, as if to choke back her sobs, walked slowly into the
shadows. It was Mary. As she came to the tomb, upon which she place her hand, she bent over to look in, and
hurried away.

John, in flowing robe, appeared, looking at the tomb; then came Peter, who entered the tomb, followed slowly by
John.

As they departed, Mary reappeared; leaning her head upon her arm at the tomb, she wept. Turning herself, she
saw Jesus standing, so did I. I knew it was He. She knelt before Him, with arms outstretched and looking into
His face cried "Rabboni!"

I awakened in full light, gripping the Bible, with muscles tense and nerves vibrating. Under the inspiration of this
vision I wrote as quickly as the words could be formed the poem exactly as it has since appeared. That same
evening I wrote the music.

I generally read Miles story before singing it as a special.

[Wes Smith]

Okay, now I buy it but I don't like it! There should be an asterick with an explanation at the bottom of that song! Ha!

Friend,

Wes

[Bob Carabbio]

ANd then there's Avalon's adaptation of "Amazing grace" -

[Bob Carabbio]

Two hymns have lyrics that bother me - one was the old "Charismatic Chorus "Lift Jesus Higher" (Meaning Crucify him!!!) the "Theology" isn't bad, but it's sung as though "Life Jesus Higher means to "Publicize, or endorse Him, instaed of the real scriptural meaning of the phrase.

The other one is "At the Cross, At the cross where I First saw the light - etc. where it says "Now I am happy all the day" - which is a false promise. We can be "joyful in the Spirit", but since a significant part of "life" is dark, and ugly, being "Happy all the day" seems rather idealistic.

[Gina Stevenson]

Yes, this is the author's story, the song came as a vision. Maybe better to hear his actual words.

I generally read Miles story before singing it as a special.

Have heard/read many such stories, but do not recall hearing/seeing this one. So, thanks for posting the story behind the first hymn learned how to play when a kid.

[Dana Grant]

We were singing "I will Praise Him" a little while ago and I was reminded of the difficulty I have with the line: "Praise the Lamb for sinners slain." I can never make sense of that. To me it sounds like we are praising him for the slaying of sinners. I understand poetic licence but that is going to be a stretch for most who are not use to the concept.

It's called poetic license, I believe.

The line actually could be stated: Praise the lamb slain for sinners! But that wouldn't fit in with the rhythm of the verse, or the syntax, I guess you could say. So the author wrote it "Praise the Lamb for sinners slain" and figured we'd all get it.

[Jon Twitchell]

Okay, now I buy it but I don't like it! There should be an asterick with an explanation at the bottom of that song! Ha!

Friend,

Wes

Well... in Sing to the Lord, there IS a scripture verse just under the title.

[Marsha Lynn]

Yes, this is the author's story, the song came as a vision. Maybe better to hear his actual words...

Thanks, Jim (and Jon). I had never heard this story and certainly hadn't come up with that setting on my own. I had a vague idea that it either referred to the garden of Eden or some watercolor painting. Which partly reveals that I haven't invested much time and effort into analyzing the lyrics.

In my loose hymn categorization, "In the Garden" is right on the verge of being thrust into the category labeled: "Heard too many times sung by people who have no clue what it means but like the sound of their own voice singing the pretty music."

Marsha

[Shea Zellweger]

It's called poetic license, I believe.

Not in Australia, it's not.

[Susan Unger]

It's called poetic license, I believe.

The line actually could be stated: Praise the lamb slain for sinners! But that wouldn't fit in with the rhythm of the verse, or the syntax, I guess you could say. So the author wrote it "Praise the Lamb for sinners slain" and figured we'd all get it.

He figured wrong.

[Jon Twitchell]

it needs hyphens... "Praise the Lamb-for-sinners-slain."

Or maybe no spaces... "Praise the Lambforsinnersslain."

[Michael Flowers]

it needs hyphens... "Praise the Lamb-for-sinners-slain."

Or maybe no spaces... "Praise the Lambforsinnersslain."

Sing to the Lord doesn't have any punctuation to break up the phrase. However, the alternate harmony line is "slain, for sinners slain!" Which means that the explanation/clarification is given immediately after the phrase for anyone who cares to look for it.

[Michael Flowers]

Yes, this is the author's story, the song came as a vision. Maybe better to hear his actual words.



I generally read Miles story before singing it as a special.

I love this hymn and this explanation makes it so much more meaningful in my opinion. If this song wasn't perfect for Easter before, it definitely fits in now!

[Susan Unger]

Or maybe no spaces... "Praise the Lambforsinnersslain."

That's how I always sang it.

[Dana Grant]

Not in Australia, it's not.

Well, it probably wasn't written in Australia....

[Craig Laughlin]

ANd then there's Avalon's adaptation of "Amazing grace" -

Wow, I really like this. Made my day. Thanks Bob.

[Oliver Phillips]

One of the most offensive is an old chorus that goes back to yesteryear, "My heart was BLACK with sin, until the Savior came in; His precious blood I know, Has washed it WHITE as snow." Just a bit of theological racism and errant reading of Scripture, I would say!

[Dennis M. Scott]

One of the most offensive is an old chorus that goes back to yesteryear, "My heart was BLACK with sin, until the Savior came in; His precious blood I know, Has washed it WHITE as snow." Just a bit of theological racism and errant reading of Scripture, I would say!

There will be some who say it wasn't racism, but poor word selection. To maintain it is still ok, takes us back to the racism thing.

Even fifty years ago, singing "Whiter than Snow" as an altar invitation brought a dampening of the Spirit's moving. That phrase is even biblical, but highly insensitive. Why use it? I don't think I personally experienced anyone using it to intentionally be racist; but just not paying attention. We don't want our hearts to be white, but to be clean and pure. Even in song, we should say what we mean. Words do make a difference. For instance, although it's just as biblical, we don't sing many songs about "circumcision of the heart."

And, for the sake of argument, "Whiter than Snow", has also been a favorite invitation song in some black churches.

[Michael Flowers]

One of the most offensive is an old chorus that goes back to yesteryear, "My heart was BLACK with sin, until the Savior came in; His precious blood I know, Has washed it WHITE as snow." Just a bit of theological racism and errant reading of Scripture, I would say!

I am pretty young so I don't have any idea as to the history of the song, but to say that it is a "bit of theological racism" bugs me. That statement doesn't say anything that isn't found in Scripture and it is certainly something that we would testify to the truth of. However, seeing where your statement comes from, perhaps a better wording would be "My heart was dark with sin, until the Savior came in; His precious blood I know, Has washed it clean as snow."

[Mike Schutz]

I must be even more musically dense than I suspected if you both clearly see this "truth" that is escaping me. My 20-something daughter/song leader insists that we do "Be Thou My Vision" slowly and smoothly. It was a new song to me when we started doing it and took a while to grow on me, but at this point I appreciate the more mellow feel. "Trust and Obey" is the one we do faster with a strong emphasis on the first beat. Isn't that more the polka feel? Boom-chuck-chuck, boom-chuck-chuck.

OK, I can see that if we sped up even more and let the chuck-chucks fade into the background, it would possibly improve the verses, but the chorus still seems clunky.

Speaking of speeding up the slow songs, we get frequent complaints (from a couple of people) that we sing the old gospel songs too slowly. That's partly because they become tongue twisters at full speed for those who didn't cut their teeth on them. However, I have a note written in the piano hymnal reminding me to introduce "What a Friend We Have in Jesus" at a right smart clip. In my early years if I had been asked for a "prayer chorus," that would have been one of the few obvious choices from the hymnal. Now the young upstarts among us have turned it into one more peppy gospel song. Bart Millard hasn't helped. Although not particularly fast, his toe-tapping Dixie-land rendition has surely caused some grave-spinning.

Marsha - Feel free to trust Billy's musical sensibilities, but not mine.

When we sing "Be Thou My Vision," I always picture it as a song I would like to hear done on the first after-conversion album by Dropkick Murphys.