Upstate New York District

[Wes Smith]

If I am understanding this right, a DS was appointed, accepted, and, subsequently declined the appointment. Through an emergency session, he was reinstated to the church he had resigned.

Maybe that has happened before, but I don't think I have ever heard of it.

Friend,

Wes

[Susan Unger]

If I am understanding this right, a DS was appointed, accepted, and, subsequently declined the appointment. Through an emergency session, he was reinstated to the church he had resigned.

Maybe that has happened before, but I don't think I have ever heard of it.

Friend,

Wes

I'm sure in pre-internet days this happened, we just didn't know about it to the degree that we do now.

[Wes Smith]

Part of the reason I wanted to post this is because I thought it was heartwarming to see a pastor change his mind in such a situation.

The transition to DS is often seen as a promotion and very few pastors that I know of have turned down the opportunity. Though I do not know this man well, I have admired his ministry at a distance and am impressed that he would thoughtfully change his mind.

Friend,

Wes

[Billy Cox]

If I am understanding this right, a DS was appointed, accepted, and, subsequently declined the appointment. Through an emergency session, he was reinstated to the church he had resigned.

Maybe that has happened before, but I don't think I have ever heard of it.

I imagine that prior to a DS being appointed, the GS(es) behind the decision make sure they have all their ducks in a row, so that there is no doubt of acceptance prior to the appointment being made public. When this sort of thing happens, someone either messed up, or new information emerged that changed the 'career calculus'.

When the denomination in the USA was in expansion mode, a DS appointment even to a small district like Upstate New York was a promotion. Nowadays small districts are merger targets and a successful/comfortable pastor would have to weigh whether it is a dead end position to be eliminated by merger or whether it is an opportunity to be DS of the newly merged district. I think it would be pretty apparent - as in whether the other DS is near retirement.

[Shea Zellweger]

I imagine that prior to a DS being appointed, the GS(es) behind the decision make sure they have all their ducks in a row, so that there is no doubt of acceptance prior to the appointment being made public. When this sort of thing happens, someone either messed up, or new information emerged that changed the 'career calculus'.

According to Bud Reedy, he attended Upstate's Ministers and Mates retreat, and got the clear sense that he wasn't supposed to be their DS.

When the denomination in the USA was in expansion mode, a DS appointment even to a small district like Upstate New York was a promotion. Nowadays small districts are merger targets and a successful/comfortable pastor would have to weigh whether it is a dead end position to be eliminated by merger or whether it is an opportunity to be DS of the newly merged district. I think it would be pretty apparent - as in whether the other DS is near retirement.

I sincerely doubt UPNY is a merger target. They've got 47 churches, which is a fairly respectable number, but more importantly those churches are spread out over a massive geographic area. It's not the largest district out there, but I'm pretty sure all of the surrounding districts would say "no thank you" to the possibility of adding some 50 churches and 50,000 square miles to their territory.

[Lucas Finch]

I sincerely doubt UPNY is a merger target. They've got 47 churches, which is a fairly respectable number, but more importantly those churches are spread out over a massive geographic area. It's not the largest district out there, but I'm pretty sure all of the surrounding districts would say "no thank you" to the possibility of adding some 50 churches and 50,000 square miles to their territory.

And UPNY's former DS was brought to my district (Rocky Mountain) to sort of whip us in shape. If Coach Carr had not been leading Upstate New York effectively, I doubt that he would have been recommended to our search committee as a good person to lead us out of some struggles that we have been going through.

[Shea Zellweger]

And UPNY's former DS was brought to my district (Rocky Mountain) to sort of whip us in shape. If Coach Carr had not been leading Upstate New York effectively, I doubt that he would have been recommended to our search committee as a good person to lead us out of some struggles that we have been going through.

Yeah, the district has a pretty good track record of producing quality District Superintendents who eventually move on to other districts. But you know what they say about New York: If you can make it there...

[Craig Laughlin]

According to Bud Reedy, he attended Upstate's Ministers and Mates retreat, and got the clear sense that he wasn't supposed to be their DS.

This sounds right. Since he was appointed there is not doubt that he had said yes to the GS at some point. Sometimes it just takes us longer to get clear with God than the organizational structure will allow. He had been on the district a long time so not likely there were surprises. Just felt a check from the Lord. Good for him for being obedient.

[Jeremy D. Scott]

Listen, this won't satisfy the conspiracy theorists out there, but there are really no secrets here: Dr. Reedy has been quite transparent throughout the whole thing. If you're really interested, watch this video from two Sundays ago. He outlines much of the process. While I cannot empathize with his situation (clear "yes" and then clear "no"), I take his word for it:
http://vimeo.com/51113756

[Kevin Rector]

But you know what they say about New York: If you can make it there...

Ah, but that's only NY, NY.... not just NY.

[Ryan Scott]

I sincerely doubt UPNY is a merger target. They've got 47 churches, which is a fairly respectable number, but more importantly those churches are spread out over a massive geographic area. It's not the largest district out there, but I'm pretty sure all of the surrounding districts would say "no thank you" to the possibility of adding some 50 churches and 50,000 square miles to their territory.

It's much smaller than they want districts to be, congregation, membership, and economic-wise. Given the size of the Adirondack National Forrest, I imagine rather than merger they might consider splitting it up among other neighboring districts.

[Bill Morrison]

Ah, but that's only NY, NY.... not just NY.

Besides Leonard Bernstein's great musical reminds us it is a "h------" of a town!

BILL

[Lucas Finch]

It's much smaller than they want districts to be, congregation, membership, and economic-wise. Given the size of the Adirondack National Forrest, I imagine rather than merger they might consider splitting it up among other neighboring districts.

That was one of the conversations had regarding the possible future of the Rocky Mountain District prior to the calling of Coach Carr (from Upstate New York) here. There really isn't a good way to do that in our case, though. (At least not in my opinion.) It certainly might be more feasible in the case of UPNY.

[Ryan Scott]

That was one of the conversations had regarding the possible future of the Rocky Mountain District prior to the calling of Coach Carr (from Upstate New York) here. There really isn't a good way to do that in our case, though. (At least not in my opinion.) It certainly might be more feasible in the case of UPNY.

Yours is really the only district where it's not feasible. There's already a transportation issue on some districts, many because of the number of congregations, others because of geography. I'm not sure that carries too much practical weight anymore.

[Dave McClung]

If I am understanding this right, a DS was appointed, accepted, and, subsequently declined the appointment. Through an emergency session, he was reinstated to the church he had resigned.

Maybe that has happened before, but I don't think I have ever heard of it.

Friend,

Wes

I know that district and I know Bud. I accept Bud's explaination just as he gave it. He is a very transparent person, and would tell it like it really is.

That being said, I suspect that some of the people at York, PA were working hard to get him to change his mind. They love Bud and would not be happy to see him leave. It would be difficult to find a person who could fill his shoes.

I compliment Bud for his wisdom.

[Shea Zellweger]

Ah, but that's only NY, NY.... not just NY.

Sure, so my entire childhood, people associate my part of the state with the city, as though the entirety of NY is in area code 212, and now the ONE time such an association comes in handy for my purposes, a non-New Yorker calls me on it. Figures.

That was one of the conversations had regarding the possible future of the Rocky Mountain District prior to the calling of Coach Carr (from Upstate New York) here. There really isn't a good way to do that in our case, though. (At least not in my opinion.) It certainly might be more feasible in the case of UPNY.

It would be a little easier with UPNY. Plattsburgh area would go to New England, Seaway Valley to Canada Atlantic, Western NY to a conglomeration of the PA and OH districts, Capital region to Metro NY or possibly one of the PAs... the only real question would be where Central NY would end up. There seems to be a fair amount of traffic between there and New England, so that seems most likely, but idunno. It's an interesting thought experiment, but I think the distance most of these churches are from one another and from the various district centers would make it pretty difficult.

[Susan Unger]

Sure, so my entire childhood, people associate my part of the state with the city, as though the entirety of NY is in area code 212, and now the ONE time such an association comes in handy for my purposes, a non-New Yorker calls me on it. Figures.

Having grown up on that district, I agree with you Shea. If they can make it on that district they can make it anywhere.

[Gary Creely]

Bud has been a mentor for me at different times durring my ministry, and I remember being at cross roads in my own life having conversations with Bud about these big life moves. He is the real deal, and though this is a rough patch in his life I am sure he will emerge stronger because of it.

Selfishly I am glad he is sticking around PA.

[Dennis M. Scott]

Upstate NY and Maine could merge, and make Oklahoma's Bowtie district look very logical.

It might make more sense to merge Upstate NY with Vermont and New Hampshire. Those two states have more in common with Upstate than the rest of New England, the district on which they are now. It would make a geographically large district even larger, but also perhaps more sustainable. It would make the new district about about sixty churches, and leave New England somewhere in the low eighties. Pastors of the two largest churches in Vermont and New Hampshire are from Upstate NY, and there are other connections back and forth.

However, there are smarter people than me to figure out these things.

[Kyle Borger]

It is my goal to split the Rocky Mountain District up into multiple districts over time. How much time is in God's hands. But based on the Denomination stats we have over 725,000 people in the communities where we currently have churches, this does not include all of the towns where there is no Nazarene church. If we only reach 10 percent of that 725,000 which is currently within reach of a current Nazarene church we would add over 700 churches averaging 100 people (which is about what our largest churches currently run).

So I figure that by the time we add over 700 churches there may be a need to create some new districts. I already know how to do it as well. We get every Nazarene in our district to say yes to the Holy Spirit and submit completely to Jesus and in turn Love God, Love People, and make new disciples of Jesus.

May the Holy Spirit come down upon our district and make it so, not for our glory, but so that the entire world might come to know the power and glory of Jesus Christ.

Yeah, I like to dream from time to time! But the thing is that God is powerful enough to do it and the only thing standing in the way is us giving God permission to change our lives.

[Marian Schwaller Carney]

Upstate NY and Maine could merge, and make Oklahoma's Bowtie district look very logical.

It might make more sense to merge Upstate NY with Vermont and New Hampshire. Those two states have more in common with Upstate than the rest of New England, the district on which they are now. It would make a geographically large district even larger, but also perhaps more sustainable. It would make the new district about about sixty churches, and leave New England somewhere in the low eighties. Pastors of the two largest churches in Vermont and New Hampshire are from Upstate NY, and there are other connections back and forth.

Well, I think that is a horrible idea! Just sayin'.....

[Shea Zellweger]

Well, I think that is a horrible idea! Just sayin'.....

Best idea I've heard all day.

[Dennis M. Scott]

Well, I think that is a horrible idea! Just sayin'.....

Yes, I suspect it would fly even less in Upstate. All of these fantasies totally disregard history, personalities, and anything close to opinion of people and churches involved. Marian Carney's opinion is the most valued, so weigh in! You might just as well suggest as anyone.

Any rethinking still needs to consider the Maine thing. Northern sections of the Northeast have a many similarities: hardscrabble natives, and English speakers from "away." Both are great people groups, but somewhat different from Metro NY, and southern New England, including Boston. I acknowledge that southern NH is pretty Boston oriented.

If I had only one comment to throw at any such discussion, it would be, "Show me a growth strategy." If realignment of a district won't encourage us / enable us to accomplish mission, there's little value. Don't mess with people just to mess with people. To align southern NH with Buffalo would take so much emotional energy, that it doesn't even make sense, and right now it's still missing the growth component.

On any district, there is a top 10% of people who are responsive. If district churches will focus on that group, growth can happen. If no one is responsive, what are we doing there in the first place?

rant, rant, rant

[Marian Schwaller Carney]

To align southern NH with Buffalo would take so much emotional energy, that it doesn't even make sense, and right now it's still missing the growth component.

Buffalo. Buffalo? Buffalo.
And here I was getting all flustered about getting to Albany and Plattsburgh! (for which there are 3 ferry crossings over Lake Champlain, but that's another discussion elsewhere....)

[Billy Cox]

And UPNY's former DS was brought to my district (Rocky Mountain) to sort of whip us in shape. If Coach Carr had not been leading Upstate New York effectively, I doubt that he would have been recommended to our search committee as a good person to lead us out of some struggles that we have been going through.

My comment was no reflection on Carr at all, but was confined to the career calculus of being appointed to a small district. And yes...47 churches is smallish. How many of those 47 are have 300+ attendance? How many of the 47 are inactive or disorganized?

[Billy Cox]

According to Bud Reedy, he attended Upstate's Ministers and Mates retreat, and got the clear sense that he wasn't supposed to be their DS.

I don't see a meaningful difference between weighing a career opportunity with one's God-given brain/wisdom versus "getting a clear sense" that he isn't suppose to be their DS. I used to think that the God-talk surrounding career moves was a bunch of religious hokum, and maybe some people think they have to put a religious veneer on it, but I no longer think it is dishonest...maybe disrespectful to our intelligence, but not dishonest.

I sincerely doubt UPNY is a merger target. They've got 47 churches, which is a fairly respectable number, but more importantly those churches are spread out over a massive geographic area. It's not the largest district out there, but I'm pretty sure all of the surrounding districts would say "no thank you" to the possibility of adding some 50 churches and 50,000 square miles to their territory.

I think that the merger calculus is changing. Just look at Oklahoma. Heck, the two merge districts are barely even contiguous and cover a huge geographical area.

[Lucas Finch]

My comment was no reflection on Carr at all, but was confined to the career calculus of being appointed to a small district. And yes...47 churches is smallish. How many of those 47 are have 300+ attendance? How many of the 47 are inactive or disorganized?

Haha, I'm certainly not one to make assessments on what makes a district "large" and "small". The RMD has about 37 churches, and none of them are 300+ attendance. Mine is one of the largest at around 150.

I do not really think that number of churches and the attendance numbers of those churches is really a complete picture of the "health" of a district, though. The RMD certainly is not healthy (though our NYI gets major props; as a leader in that, I am admittedly a bit proud). The geography, demographics, and such need to be taken into consideration, too. I really do not know anything about Upstate New York, but I have heard that there are actually quite a few similarities between it and the Mountain West. From all indications that I have picked up, the Upstate New York District seems to be quite healthy when all things are considered. I'm not sure why there would be a need to merge it or split and merge it with other districts, unless doing so would make it even healthier.

Just my thoughts, though, from my limited perspective. As I've indicated, I really do not know much outside of my RMD and Northwest Region sphere.

[Billy Cox]

Listen, this won't satisfy the conspiracy theorists out there, but there are really no secrets here: Dr. Reedy has been quite transparent throughout the whole thing. If you're really interested, watch this video from two Sundays ago. He outlines much of the process. While I cannot empathize with his situation (clear "yes" and then clear "no"), I take his word for it:
http://vimeo.com/51113756

No conspiracy, just an acknowledgement that 'God's direction' doesn't require one to unplug their brain.

[John Reilly]

I think we should merge the Rocky Mountain District with the Upstate New York District and keep COACH Bill Carr as DS of Both. He could buy a used Jet from Romney after the election.

[Susan Unger]

My comment was no reflection on Carr at all, but was confined to the career calculus of being appointed to a small district. And yes...47 churches is smallish. How many of those 47 are have 300+ attendance? How many of the 47 are inactive or disorganized?

Upstate has three with 300+: Owego, Rochester Calvary Community, Watertown and at upper 200s they have Plattsburgh and Syracuse Christ Community.

[Shea Zellweger]

Upstate has three with 300+: Owego, Rochester Calvary Community, Watertown and at upper 200s they have Plattsburgh and Syracuse Christ Community.

And several more with 100+ or 200+ (overall attendance is a little over 4,000). It's about 2/3 the size of the average district, with a slightly higher than average per capita giving rate. I'm not saying it's Kansas City or anything, but I think Marian's response above pretty well encapsulates the issue with trying to merge (or divide and merge) Upstate. The cultural perception is that Upstate is a unique thing. While northern New Englanders probably have more in common with UPNY than Southern New England, they still see themselves as a part of New England, not a part of whatever it is that Northern New York is. Metro NY has over 100 churches and 13,000 members, so adding even the southern part of UPNY would be difficult for them. Pittsburgh might be able to take the Western portion of the district, but that just leaves the Eastern part in the situation of having to merge with the more "liberal" New England or Metro districts. It might make good organizational sense to do away with Upstate, but I wouldn't be surprised to see some negative results from it.

I wonder how many other Districts we see as merger candidates face a similar problem.

[Susan Unger]

And several more with 100+ or 200+ (overall attendance is a little over 4,000). It's about 2/3 the size of the average district, with a slightly higher than average per capita giving rate. I'm not saying it's Kansas City or anything, but I think Marian's response above pretty well encapsulates the issue with trying to merge (or divide and merge) Upstate. The cultural perception is that Upstate is a unique thing. While northern New Englanders probably have more in common with UPNY than Southern New England, they still see themselves as a part of New England, not a part of whatever it is that Northern New York is. Metro NY has over 100 churches and 13,000 members, so adding even the southern part of UPNY would be difficult for them. Pittsburgh might be able to take the Western portion of the district, but that just leaves the Eastern part in the situation of having to merge with the more "liberal" New England or Metro districts. It might make good organizational sense to do away with Upstate, but I wouldn't be surprised to see some negative results from it.

I wonder how many other Districts we see as merger candidates face a similar problem.

And adding any to the Philly district wouldn't help either because northern Philly district is pretty empty of Naz churches. So there'd be a sense of disconnect to begin with.

[David Pettigrew]

I disagree that mergers are the wave of the future. Districts decline to even consider mergers far more often than they merge. In fact, South Texas was the poster child of mergers, and with Dr. Srader's retirement there are those who want to split it again.

[Marian Schwaller Carney]

I think we should merge the Rocky Mountain District with the Upstate New York District and keep COACH Bill Carr as DS of Both. He could buy a used Jet from Romney after the election.

OK, as long I get to ride in the plane, I could get warm to this idea....