Sexual Misconduct...in Reverse

[Wes Smith]

I have pondered this problem for several years and it seems worthy of a NazNet discussion. If this is inappropriate I am fully open to having a host administrater remove the thread.

Over the years I have had two former pastors confide in me that their reason for leaving their spouses and "falling" into a relationship outside of their marriages was due to the discontinuance of sexual relations and affection quite early in their marriages. Both men were good men and had years of successful ministry before making the transition. Both men begged their spouses to no avail to seek counseling.

My insights into these relationships cause me to ask, "Have we, as a denomination, closed our eyes to the problems of such marriages?" Both of the men to whom I refer were very soon a distant speck in the denomination's rearview mirror.

It "seems" to me that such situations should have special handling. What do you think?

Friend,

Wes

[James Diggs]

That's not a good reason for leaving their wives, and certainly doesn't validate having an affair.

Counseling would be best- but if the wife won't go the husband should go by himself- because the issue isn't necessarily just about her and perhaps there is a way he can grow as a person and this could help make things better, or give him tools to better navigate it. The fact that these men allowed themselves to "fall in love" and commit adultery, and then justify it, tells me there may be some immaturity on their end that at least contributes to not helping the marriage have a chance of getting better.

I am not saying that a loveless marriage necessarily has to go on forever (if that's what it really is- a wife could love her husband and just struggle to be affectionate), but he owes it to her to commit himself to her, without investing emotionally in another, until the end- which could be divorce if the wife doesn't love her husband and wants to leave him.

[Bob Hunter]

I don't think going to counseling is enough, though they should both give it a try. These couples need to see a licensed sexual therapist to deal with the trauma associated with intercourse. And there are some good Christian ones out there. Typically, a spouse who does not want to have sex has some underlying issue that need to be resolved. In marriage you have an obligation to fulfill each other's needs and sex is right atop the list for men. To deny him sex, unless there is a valid medical reason, is a form of mistreatment and neglect of your partner. It's sad, even though it isn't grounds for divorce.

But there is another ugly problem lurking behind this problem. And it is marital rape. Forcing your partner to have sex or using some form of physical manipulation can cause psychological trauma leading to a sexless marriage. It's a bigger problem than you think. But some men think they are entitled to their partner's body and insist upon certain sexual acts even though their partner may not be in agreement. As a couple, Cambria and I counseled a young bride who claimed her husband demanded sex two ways; anally or orally. She was not comfortable with that and did not want to engage in sex.

I think Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 7 can be interpreted wrongly and used as justification for such acts, “The wife’s body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband’s body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife. Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control” (1 Corinthians 7:4-5, NIV).

I would just point out that a spouse's refusal to have sex is NOT the cause of marital rape, it is probably the result of a control freak husband who has an anger issue. Ragaholics almost always have some kind of sexual outlet for their frustrations. One counselor told me that male sexual issues and anger issues are joined at the hip.

[Craig Laughlin]

"No sex" is a symptom, (Physical, emotional, relational, et all) and should be investigated. All divorces, especially in the clergy should be handled carefully and with great grace. That being said, no sex doesn't justify divorce. Seems like maybe this is the worse side of for better or worse. Almost every person I've worked with that got involved in an inappropriate relationship (a lot more than I ever expected) blamed their spouse to some degree.

[Marsha Lynn]

I agree with what James has posted, but wanted to add one observation. I think a lack of basic knowledge concerning sexual expectations and needs contributes much to the misunderstandings between spouses in this area. Some couples manage to learn together and communicate their needs to each other. Others aren't so fortunate. I suspect that for every case you have encountered where emotional distance within marriage led to sexual infidelity, there are dozens of cases where people have hung on in spite of ongoing frustrations in this area.

What is the solution for so much misunderstanding and lack of communication concerning a subject so private?

[Wes Smith]

Hm. Fascinating responses.

I have actually wondered if withdrawel of affection and sexual relations equals the breaking of the wedding vows. Why wouldn't it? No guy, or girl for that matter, that I've ever known courted with the intent of or hope of creating and living in a "roommate" relationship.

My thoughts for this thread are way after the fact, but loss of credentials was the result in both cases. In retrospect I have wondered if such action was truly fair. No one asked any questions about or showed interest in the reasons that led to the marital unfaithfulness and divorce. Should the reasons behind the breakup matter to the denomination?

Friend,

Wes

[Billy Cox]

I agree with what James has posted, but wanted to add one observation. I think a lack of basic knowledge concerning sexual expectations and needs contributes much to the misunderstandings between spouses in this area. Some couples manage to learn together and communicate their needs to each other. Others aren't so fortunate. I suspect that for every case you have encountered where emotional distance within marriage led to sexual infidelity, there are dozens of cases where people have hung on in spite of ongoing frustrations in this area.

What is the solution for so much misunderstanding and lack of communication concerning a subject so private?

Sounds like a good case for premarital sex.

[Billy Cox]

Should the reasons behind the breakup matter to the denomination?

To the denomination? Probably not. I'm sure that the DS (or whoever) considers the details of the case, but is then cast in the unenviable position of listening primarily to one side of the story and deciding whether to extend grace to a buddy or appearing to take sides against one of their own.

I've seen this firsthand, and it was ugly. The staff pastor kept his credentials but when finances went south, he was first out the door and no other church saw fit to employ him full-time. His wife was well-liked at the church and was forced to leave. It was very divisive and is a stain on that congregation's integrity. (just commenting on the marital disintegration...not commenting on the cause)

[Pete Vecchi]

I have actually wondered if withdrawal of affection and sexual relations equals the breaking of the wedding vows.
Friend,

Wes

That's an interesting way of looking at it. I think that the first person I ever heard equate something other than a sexual affair as something where divorce was allowed was quite a few years ago when I heard Tony Evans on the radio preaching about how if a husband physically abused his wife, that beating had broken the covenant between them and therefore the wife would be justified in leaving the husband. I don't remember all of the specifics from what was said all those years ago, but my sense was that Evans was saying that once the covenant had been broken, divorce had in essence already occurred, and my impression was that therefore and legal divorce was more or less a formality.

I bring that up because Wes' comment above mentioned the possibility of withdrawal from sex possibly breaking the wedding vows.

This can open another whole can of worms, but perhaps it should be opened.

[Craig Laughlin]

Hm. Fascinating responses.

I have actually wondered if withdrawel of affection and sexual relations equals the breaking of the wedding vows. Why wouldn't it? No guy, or girl for that matter, that I've ever known courted with the intent of or hope of creating and living in a "roommate" relationship.

My thoughts for this thread are way after the fact, but loss of credentials was the result in both cases. In retrospect I have wondered if such action was truly fair. No one asked any questions about or showed interest in the reasons that led to the marital unfaithfulness and divorce. Should the reasons behind the breakup matter to the denomination?

Friend,

Wes

I think you are blending to separate issues.

1st - is no sex breaking marriage vows. I haven't really thought much about this so I'll leave it alone.

2 - an affair. Regardless of the circumstances, getting involved with someone else while you are still married is sin and will rightly cause one to loose their credential.

[Wes Smith]

Craig,

You may be right, but as far as I know we have never given consideration for any reason/s for the infidelity. I am not familiar with the details, for instance, about re-obtaining credentials, but I think an elder can have his/her credentials restored after a period of repentance and purity. Just wondering if marital frigidity could be a "special" consideration and an elder's orders could be restored after some remedial process that would focus on the sexual disfunctionality with the hope of restoring the vitality of the marriage and restoring the elder's orders.

Just thoughts.

Friend,

Wes

[Craig Laughlin]

Craig,

You may be right, but as far as I know we have never given consideration for any reason/s for the infidelity. I am not familiar with the details, for instance, about re-obtaining credentials, but I think an elder can have his/her credentials restored after a period of repentance and purity. Just wondering if marital frigidity could be a "special" consideration and an elder's orders could be restored after some remedial process that would focus on the sexual disfunctionality with the hope of restoring the vitality of the marriage and restoring the elder's orders.

Just thoughts.

Friend,

Wes

Ah, I would think of this as a whole other question but I have no doubt that such a thing could/would be taken into consideration.

Edit- I've been involved in discussions about restoring credentials several times and have signed my name to do so.

[Wes Smith]

A guy came to my office after having his credentials removed. He and I had shared a fairly open and supportive relationship in ministry pastoring two nearby churches. He was, as you might imagine, humiliated. He just needed someone to know that his wife had withdrawn basic affection and sexual relations shortly after their marriage. He said that their (celebate) courtship had not given him a clue that his wife would be anything other than a mutually involved sexual partner. After a couple decades of suffering a relationship that no one knew anything about he quite accidentally bumped into a vivacious woman who ultimately provided everything his wife would not.

I have never felt comfortable with how we treated that guy. Seems like someone in an official capacity should have heard his story. Instead, he made his way down the road with nearly everyone believing he was a nasty womanizer and deserved having his credentials removed.

Friend,

Wes

[Craig Laughlin]

What would you propose?

[Wes Smith]

Actually, I am more convinced that something should be done than I am knowing what should be done.

Not sure, but it seems like we could start by opening doors of understanding to marriages that do not emerge into sexual compatibility. One guy I know went to a top Christian psychiatrist at a nearby Christian University and explained his marital situation and was told that "...perhaps in heaven we would understand the gulf that exists between the sexual needs of men and women." How in the world was that helpful?

Perhaps a dynamic theology of sexuality would be helpful.

I interpreted Dobson's "Tough Love" as teaching that a marriage partner who witheld affection and sexuality as having abandoned their marriage vows.

Finding a different way to describe "surrendering" credentials in such a case.

It would be interesting to know how many of our pastoral couples would sign up for sessions with a sexual therapist if such sessions could be discreetly offered and accepted.

I don't have the answers, but askng questions is a start.

Friend,

Wes

[Pete Vecchi]

A guy came to my office after having his credentials removed. He and I had shared a fairly open and supportive relationship in ministry pastoring two nearby churches. He was, as you might imagine, humiliated. He just needed someone to know that his wife had withdrawn basic affection and sexual relations shortly after their marriage. He said that their (celebate) courtship had not given him a clue that his wife would be anything other than a mutually involved sexual partner. After a couple decades of suffering a relationship that no one knew anything about he quite accidentally bumped into a vivacious woman who ultimately provided everything his wife would not.

I have never felt comfortable with how we treated that guy. Seems like someone in an official capacity should have heard his story. Instead, he made his way down the road with nearly everyone believing he was a nasty womanizer and deserved having his credentials removed.

Friend,

Wes

Two things. I wonder what "he made his way down the road with nearly everyone believing he was a nasty womanizer and deserved having his credentials removed" really means. It seems to me that a general practice is that when someone has his/her credentials removed, the reason isn't usually made public (although rumors undoubtedly begin to circulate). Was the situation something that was well-known among people of the church (both local and district)?

Second, my sense from the posts is that this situation occurred years ago. I remember years ago that a divorce was almost an automatic disqualification from pastoral ministry--regardless of the circumstances (and even in some cases when divorce happened prior to a person becoming a Christian). I've seen the stances against divorce ease over the years, and I'm wondering if the church culture is slowly moving away from counting everything that doesn't fall into the traditional ideal of marriage as sexual sin.

Personally, I don't see the situation Wes described becoming "acceptable" anytime soon--especially among clergy, who are expected to lead exemplary lives even more than laypeople.

[Craig Laughlin]

Actually, I am more convinced that something should be done than I am knowing what should be done.

Not sure, but it seems like we could start by opening doors of understanding to marriages that do not emerge into sexual compatibility. One guy I know went to a top Christian psychiatrist at a nearby Christian University and explained his marital situation and was told that "...perhaps in heaven we would understand the gulf that exists between the sexual needs of men and women." How in the world was that helpful?

Perhaps a dynamic theology of sexuality would be helpful.

I interpreted Dobson's "Tough Love" as teaching that a marriage partner who witheld affection and sexuality as having abandoned their marriage vows.

Finding a different way to describe "surrendering" credentials in such a case.

It would be interesting to know how many of our pastoral couples would sign up for sessions with a sexual therapist if such sessions could be discreetly offered and accepted.

I don't have the answers, but askng questions is a start.

Friend,

Wes

I don't disagree with any of this. However, it could be applied to all kinds of things that cause a marriage to fall apart. Marriages are very complex things with all sorts of ways to fail our partners. Where do we draw the line? Really don't know.

[Gina Stevenson]

One guy I know went to a top Christian psychiatrist at a nearby Christian University and explained his marital situation and was told that "...perhaps in heaven we would understand the gulf that exists between the sexual needs of men and women." How in the world was that helpful?

Perhaps a dynamic theology of sexuality would be helpful.

Uhhh . . . I would think, while such a statement as this may have been made, that it was "in passing," & far from the full extent of what was said by someone knowledgeable in such things & working to help people with marital/sexual issues. Sounds like someone either did not listen well on their first visit, which ~~ I would guess ~~ included a comment or two like this to "break the ice/make the client comfortable," OR possibly did not return(?) thereafter?

Such a statement as this ~~ placing it in the "mysterious" category much of such a subject seems to fall into (re that male/female gulf) ~~ seems something a counselor might do, both assuring the guy he was not alone (hinting at the universality of it all), while doing that "make 'em comfortable" thing, rather than hitting up the heavy stuff the first moment he met him.

I interpreted Dobson's "Tough Love" as teaching that a marriage partner who witheld affection and sexuality as having abandoned their marriage vows .........

It would be interesting to know how many of our pastoral couples would sign up for sessions with a sexual therapist if such sessions could be discreetly offered and accepted.

I don't have the answers, but asking questions is a start.

Friend,

Wes

You mention "tough love," and Dobson, suggesting some counseling. Well, last we knew, HB London, a former Naz pastor, is (or at least was) with that very organization to be a "pastor-to-pastors"-type counselor specifically. Most likely there's a network of folks working with him, as he could not do all that alone.

It is sad, though, when such things happen inside or outside of the ministry.

[Hans Deventer]

"No sex" is a symptom, (Physical, emotional, relational, et all) and should be investigated. All divorces, especially in the clergy should be handled carefully and with great grace. That being said, no sex doesn't justify divorce. Seems like maybe this is the worse side of for better or worse. Almost every person I've worked with that got involved in an inappropriate relationship (a lot more than I ever expected) blamed their spouse to some degree.

If there is some truth to Gary Chapman's Five Languages of Love, for many men no sex would equal no love. (If, of course, it is an option! There may be various reasons why it cannot be, though I certainly would not limit sex to intercourse only). That may not be a reason for divorce, but it does break down a marriage to at best peaceful coexistance. I'm not casting stones on the one who says that a marriage without sex (understood broadly) is over.

[Craig Laughlin]

If there is some truth to Gary Chapman's Five Languages of Love, for many men no sex would equal no love. (If, of course, it is an option! There may be various reasons why it cannot be, though I certainly would not limit sex to intercourse only). That may not be a reason for divorce, but it does break down a marriage to at best peaceful coexistance. I'm not casting stones on the one who says that a marriage without sex (understood broadly) is over.

Yep. Can't disagree.

[Hans Deventer]

It seems to me the biggest problem is that with relational problems the church is only ushered in to clean up the mess. In other words, way too late. At that point there are no good options left.

When you visit our church, it looks pretty good on the outside. However, when you get to know people better, it is astonishing to hear how many couples struggle or have struggled in their relationship. Thank God we offer marriage courses, but the folks who need it most don't always show up.

It seems to me we have privatized our lives too much. It is not true that our relationships don't matter to the community of faith. If only, because it has to deal with the mess and brokenness that is often created. It's one of the reasons why I insist on the idea that when we want to follow Christ, we have to give up the idea that we are our own king. It is exactly the community of faith that, as I believe Jesus intended, is to be the clearest embodiment of the Kingdom.

46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47 Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”
48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.” (Matthew 12)

[Jim Chabot]

I have pondered this problem for several years and it seems worthy of a NazNet discussion. If this is inappropriate I am fully open to having a host administrater remove the thread.

Over the years I have had two former pastors confide in me that their reason for leaving their spouses and "falling" into a relationship outside of their marriages was due to the discontinuance of sexual relations and affection quite early in their marriages. Both men were good men and had years of successful ministry before making the transition. Both men begged their spouses to no avail to seek counseling.

My insights into these relationships cause me to ask, "Have we, as a denomination, closed our eyes to the problems of such marriages?" Both of the men to who I refer were very soon a distant speck in the denomination's rearview mirror.

It "seems" to me that such situations should have special handling. What do you think?

Friend,

Wes

As I read this thread, I'm finding myself in agreement with most of what is said here. I have to say that James Diggs lead off with a sentence that captures my thoughts pretty well.

That's not a good reason for leaving their wives, and certainly doesn't validate having an affair.

So yes, James is really right here. First off, what kind of a stupid, selfish, self absorbed reason is this for divorce? Kind of makes my blood boil, and without knowing the folks involved, I have to wonder what caused the hurt whereby the wife becomes withdrawn. Are we not called to love our wives as Christ loves the Church? A pastor who doesn't get this is surely in the wrong business, and my worry would be how he could infect others should he find opportunity to counsel people.

Then we get to the second part of James quote. What would be the justification for an affair? Is it possible that validation could ever occur. Is it possible that we could ever say that it is ok to mortally wound someone whom we are pledged to love? I'm not saying that weakness doesn't exist, and that affairs will never happen, but let's never allow ourselves to call them good, they are shameful in every case.

I don't want to pretend to know better than you do Wes. You say that you knew these men and that they were good men. While I have to admit that you are closer to the situation, I also must admit that I cannot get my feeble mind around the concept that someone who enters into an affair and leaves his wife is a good match for ministry. From a human standpoint, I can see how an affection starved person will eventually start to look around, there's no denying this. At the same time, I'm a big believer in Paul's admonition that for someone to rule in the church, they must first show this in their own family. Yes we all have failures, and yes there is forgiveness, while still these folks should not be allowed to lead in our churches, this much is clear. When someone chooses ministry over family, I think we are within our rights to call ministry a silly little job well suited for a pathetic man. Lets pray that their congregations and level of pay remain pitiful as well.

Could something have been done sooner? I don't know. I must admit that my first instinct is that these guys are making a pathetic excuse at the expense of their wife, and I'm disgusted on that score, if it's so. But let's assume that it's true, then what? How do we avoid a "catch 22" situation. How do we have ministers coming forward for help, when the initial recommendation should always be that they leave the ministry in order to heal their family. Are we willing to say that this withdrawal of affection is the result of a woman with evil intent or psychological defect? If not, then what?

It has been suggested that the wife's withdrawal could very well be caused by her husband and I would tend to agree. Ministers fall victim to the same pressures as do salesmen. They spend their public time smiling and being ever so pleasant. Unless this is their natural demeanor, there is a good chance that there is a Jeckl and Hyde component to the totality of their outward interaction with others. There must be a release and the wife ends up taking one for the team. Unless the man comes to realize this and then properly prioritizes his wife and family to come completely before ministry, then he is doomed for failure and rightly so.

So how could we counsel someone in this situation, before it goes over the cliff? Do we tell the wife to "suck it up" and comply? Do we read her the verses where it's indicated that her husband owns her, and pile on a bit of guilt about her part in this ministry effort? Or do we counsel the husband to leave the ministry, if only for a time, and then possibly come back should he receive full blessing and support from his wife? Should we do this, then we must realize that men aren't going to come forward, they will double down and hope to get past this, maybe even convincing themselves that they can do without the affection of their wife. Sounds wretched to me.

What would happen if we more honestly approached the qualifications for ministry, especially where one must lead his family before leading the church. What would happen if we empowered women, by telling them, and rightly so, that they are the arbiter of their husband's "call." It's really simple, according to Scripture, no support from your family and you have no "call," you are self deluded. I'm reminded often of something that Jerry Falwell once said;

If I were doing something that the Bible condemns, I have two choices. I can straighten up my act, or I can somehow distort and twist and change the meaning of the Bible.

I'm also reminded of a trip up to John Reilly's place and an opportunity to hear Michael Benson speak. At one point he spoke of his dad and the cancer that he had for 13 years. He said that his mom would always set a place at the table for dad, but that he was rarely there. He said that they knew he had been home because his breakfast bowl would be in the sink when they came down for breakfast. Then his doctor informed him that he has cancer, and that he had six months left to live. Michael said that with the realization that there were but 180 more chances to have dinner with his family, his dad began to come home for dinner, and from that point, he never missed a meal or a chance to be with his family. Moreover he said that every notable sermon, every notable book, and everything that folks would find remarkable about Bob Benson, happened in the thirteen years since the doctor's diagnosis of cancer. Mike said that on his deathbed, his dad looked at his cancer as being a gift from God, he shuddered to think of how his life would have played out without it.

I think that there is something to be learned from this story.

[Tinker Boyd]

We really don't have enough information here. Generally sex is very emotional for women and less physical. If the emotional attachment isn't there, most women have no interest in sex. We have no idea if that is what happened in this case but whether it did or didn't, there were other ways for the men to deal with it besides having an affair even if the women weren't willing to go to counseling. A divorce on the grounds of depravity would have been a more Biblical option than having an affair. I find the affairs inexcusable. Using this reasoning, then if the women were being emotionally deprived then they could have had an excuse to have affairs as well. Where does that stop? They could have also divorced on the grounds of depravity as their emotional needs are as important as men’s' physical needs. There is never an excuse for marital infidelity! The trust that is broken is unbelievable.

All of that said, I still think there is room for forgiveness and the denomination should explore that, but if these men are still excusing their affairs, then in my opinion, they are not ready to have their credentials reinstated.

[John Reilly]

I appreciate Wes raising the issue along the lines of denominational responsibiitiy. "My insights into these relationships cause me to ask, "Have we, as a denomination, closed our eyes to the problems of such marriages?" Both of the men to who I refer were very soon a distant speck in the denomination's rearview mirror. It "seems" to me that such situations should have special handling. What do you think?"

I think we need some Wesleyan based accountability groups. As a Wesleyan based holiness denomination I believe we can not truly practice holiness without also engaging in Wesleyan Spiritual Practices including the disciplines of "Christian Conferencing." We need to create safe small groups for Pastors to share and answer the questions Wesley asked. And then we need to be ready to pray and support one another without the fear of breaking confidentiality. The greatest hope for the world is the local church and the greatest hope for the local church are pastors engaged in Wesleyan Spiritual Disciplines. I am proposing that every Nazarene Pastor be part of a Wesleyan based small group designed specifically for personal accountability and that we meet at least monthly with confidentiality being affirmed at each meeting.

[Jon Bemis]

I have actually wondered if withdrawel of affection and sexual relations equals the breaking of the wedding vows. Why wouldn't it? No guy, or girl for that matter, that I've ever known courted with the intent of or hope of creating and living in a "roommate" relationship.

The reality is that affairs happen because people try to have legitimate needs met in illegitimate ways. IMO the lack of sexual relations is not grounds for divorce, and never ever legitimizes an affair. An affair is the breaking of covenant faith not only with the spouse but with the Body of Christ as well and should never be excused. I have been involved in counseling situations with similar circumstances of the two pastors you mentioned. I have found that most often the lack of sex is a symptom of more complex issues. Should the church have been able to have done more to help? The answer to that is invariably "yes." However, many times couples choose to not get help with issues in their marriage until things have deteriorated to the point that intervention has little chance of success. I think this is especially true of couples in ministry for obvious reasons.

[Wes Smith]

Good feedback. And, interesting.

The suggestion that we do not have enough information here is totally legitimate. It is impossible to have adequate information when just the opinions of one-half of the marriage are known. While I trust the two pastors who shared their journeys with me, it is not possible to make an actual judgement. True.

The comment that "there are dozens of cases where people have hung on in spite of ongoing frustrations in this area" is attention-getting.

One writer on NazNet is quite known for pointing at the lack of a good concept of ecclesiology for the problems we have in church. It could be that in a similar way we have problems in pastoral and non-pastoral homes in our piece of the kingdom since we do not have a theology of sexuality.

Specifically, I have to wonder about the guy who came to my office after his credentials had been lifted, just to give his side of the story. He seemed to be looking for just one person who might understand. Thus the question. He is not even a speck in our rearview mirror. He is long gone. (dead)

While the issue of immorality and unfaithfulness is obviously important, is there such a thing as an "exit interview" that would help people in leadership make better judgements about such cases? And, are there things to be learned that could improve marriages that do not "publically" fail?

Friend,

Wes

[Hans Deventer]

Wes, I just want to thank you for raising this issue, and for the way you are raising it.

[Bob Hunter]

I appreciate Wes raising the issue along the lines of denominational responsibiitiy. "My insights into these relationships cause me to ask, "Have we, as a denomination, closed our eyes to the problems of such marriages?" Both of the men to who I refer were very soon a distant speck in the denomination's rearview mirror. It "seems" to me that such situations should have special handling. What do you think?"

I think we need some Wesleyan based accountability groups. As a Wesleyan based holiness denomination I believe we can not truly practice holiness without also engaging in Wesleyan Spiritual Practices including the disciplines of "Christian Conferencing." We need to create safe small groups for Pastors to share and answer the questions Wesley asked. And then we need to be ready to pray and support one another without the fear of breaking confidentiality. The greatest hope for the world is the local church and the greatest hope for the local church are pastors engaged in Wesleyan Spiritual Disciplines. I am proposing that every Nazarene Pastor be part of a Wesleyan based small group designed specifically for personal accountability and that we meet at least monthly with confidentiality being affirmed at each meeting.

John,

This is a great topic for another thread. I have been discussing the importance of spiritual friendships and mentoring partnerships in the Wesleyan tradition with a lot of folks in recent years. When I have the privilege of teaching Spiritual Formation for the Bible College, each student is required to developed a spiritual friend with whom they are to meet with on a weekly basis. I am surprised at the men who cannot identify such a person and panic to complete the assignment. If confirms a real problem; a lot of pastors are alone in their struggles and they suffer in silence. They make decisions in haste and act unwisely when they have no one to hold them accountable. I have been saved a dozen times by mentoring partners in my life.

I will be posting some stuff very soon on mentoring and personal accountability.

-Bob

[Marsha Lynn]

It would be interesting to do a poll and see how many people have someone with whom they can discuss their questions/issues concerning sexual relations. If a wall goes up between spouses where can a person turn to get an objective perspective on what's happening? And how does a spouse typically respond if he/she discovers his/her partner has been discussing their sex life (or lack there-of) with a friend?

Bob mentioned sex therapists. Wouldn't THAT hit the fan if the congregation discovered their pastor was consulting a sex therapist? Not that it's not a good suggestion, but it certainly doesn't seem to be a step that a pastor (or much of anyone) would take openly.

One of the most interesting internet sites I ever stumbled upon was a Christian forum regarding this very topic. It almost seemed like an oxymoron to put Christian and sex in the same topic line. And yet it offered some invaluable insights to me. That was years ago (on AOL). I don't know if there are any such forums around now or not. Is that the sort of thing we need to offer people? It's a little difficult because one certainly wouldn't want to open it up to the search engines and then require real names for accountability.

<-- interesting. I looked for the old open-mouthed shocked smiley we used to have, couldn't find it, tried the embarrassed smiley, decided that wasn't quite right, built my own open-mouthed smiley - (: o) - and had it turned into an embarrassed smiley. OK, we'll go with that. I'll confess to mixed emoticons of discomfort regarding my involvement in this thread. The mic isn't on, is it?

[Dennis M. Scott]

While the issue of immorality and unfaithfulness is obviously important, is there such a thing as an "exit interview" that would help people in leadership make better judgements about such cases? And, are there things to be learned that could improve marriages that do not "publically" fail?

Friend,

Wes

We don't do exit interviews well. Ended marriages and ended ministerial careers are so packed with emotions that it's a whole lot easier to just not do them. I've frequently wondered if knowing that such an interview was going to take place might even serve as a tiny incentive to seek a different outcome. The primary thing we communicate by doing nothing is that we don't care. That isn't true, and it's the last thing such individuals need.

Kudos to you for being the kind of person that such an individual felt they could seek out and in whom they could confide.

[Bob Hunter]

Bob mentioned sex therapists. Wouldn't THAT hit the fan if the congregation discovered their pastor was consulting a sex therapist? Not that it's not a good suggestion, but it certainly doesn't seem to be a step that a pastor (or much of anyone) would take openly.

I hear what you are saying, but seeking professional help in this area is not something one should broadcast to the congregation. I think it is between the husband, wife and counselor and no else really needs to know. I would just not make it public and do my best to keep it a private matter. But I think we should encourage folks to seek professional help in dealing with sexual dysfunction. Why not?

When I was at East Hill Family Church as a volunteer, Dr. Ted Roberts (Sr. Pastor) sought and received training in sexual therapy. He was very open about having credentials that made it possible to counsel pastors on a whole different level. And quite frankly our sexual lives are neglected by the Church. How many Nazarene Churches do you know of that publicly deal with sexual issues? Usually our message is summed up in one word, "No". We fail to provide helpful strategies for people who struggling with their sexuality. Meanwhile, pastors like Mark Driscoll are constantly talking about sex and getting results. We may not like Driscoll, but I don't think any doubts he is having an impact.

[Hans Deventer]

I hear what you are saying, but seeking professional help in this area is not something one should broadcast to the congregation.

And as long as we have to keep up appearances, this problem won't go away.

[Billy Cox]

When you visit our church, it looks pretty good on the outside. However, when you get to know people better, it is astonishing to hear how many couples struggle or have struggled in their relationship. Thank God we offer marriage courses, but the folks who need it most don't always show up.

Hans, I have been to many many marriage seminars/retreats/workshops. For a relationship in crisis, the best that such a format can do is to lead one or both spouses to seek professional help. I don't even know how the congregation can really help aside from mourning with those who mourn.

[Mark Bolerjack]

That's an interesting way of looking at it. I think that the first person I ever heard equate something other than a sexual affair as something where divorce was allowed was quite a few years ago when I heard Tony Evans on the radio preaching about how if a husband physically abused his wife, that beating had broken the covenant between them and therefore the wife would be justified in leaving the husband. I don't remember all of the specifics from what was said all those years ago, but my sense was that Evans was saying that once the covenant had been broken, divorce had in essence already occurred, and my impression was that therefore and legal divorce was more or less a formality.

I bring that up because Wes' comment above mentioned the possibility of withdrawal from sex possibly breaking the wedding vows.

This can open another whole can of worms, but perhaps it should be opened.

I heard Ponder Gilliland preach on this many, many years ago at BFC. He said that God would rather have a woman single and divorced than to see her continually hurt in an abusive relationship.

If you used to follow Dr. Laura, she said there were 3 "A's" that would be acceptable as a cause for divorce: Abuse, Adultery, and Addiction.

I agree with both of these statements.

[Hans Deventer]

Hans, I have been to many many marriage seminars/retreats/workshops. For a relationship in crisis, the best that such a format can do is to lead one or both spouses to seek professional help. I don't even know how the congregation can really help aside from mourning with those who mourn.

Agreed. The marriage courses are mainly preventive maintenance. Still, where communication is braking down but isn't zero yet, they may help.

[Jim Chabot]

Hans, I have been to many many marriage seminars/retreats/workshops. For a relationship in crisis, the best that such a format can do is to lead one or both spouses to seek professional help. I don't even know how the congregation can really help aside from mourning with those who mourn.

A congregation and a Board in particular can help by making sure that their Pastor has time to spend with family. A Pastor needs to have a "date night" where he or she is left alone ,a Board member can take any calls on that day. When Manny Chavier was on the credentials commitee, one of his questions was always about date night. He was rightly concerned for those who might place ministry ahead of family. We would be well advised to share this concern.

[Dave McClung]

I have pondered this problem for several years and it seems worthy of a NazNet discussion. If this is inappropriate I am fully open to having a host administrater remove the thread.

Over the years I have had two former pastors confide in me that their reason for leaving their spouses and "falling" into a relationship outside of their marriages was due to the discontinuance of sexual relations and affection quite early in their marriages. Both men were good men and had years of successful ministry before making the transition. Both men begged their spouses to no avail to seek counseling.

My insights into these relationships cause me to ask, "Have we, as a denomination, closed our eyes to the problems of such marriages?" Both of the men to whom I refer were very soon a distant speck in the denomination's rearview mirror.

It "seems" to me that such situations should have special handling. What do you think?

Friend,

Wes

Wes, several years ago I served as secretary of the "Committee on the Rehabilitation and Restoration of Clergy." When the committee was meeting one member of the clergy per week turned in their credentials due to sexual misconduct.

As a result of the work of that committee a requirement was added to the Manual that requires a plan of rehabilitation for any member of the clergy who loses their credential. On some districts, that provision is being implemented as intended. On some other districts, the implementation has not been very effective.

In my opinion, sexual misconduct by clergy shouldn't be excused even if the clergy had a reason. The real question is "what then?" There should be a plan to rehabilitate the offending clergy as rapidly as possible. The committee's recommendation was that there be no time limit on restoration. Members of the committee believed that in some circumstances all that was required was a testimony of repentance. If you were there, you will recall that our recommendation was amended to add a 4 year waiting period for restoration of Credentials.

[Gina Stevenson]

Wow! Such frequency . . . seems this may be such a widespread occurrence (once a week!?) that some sort of preventative is not just suggested, but something to somehow be required . . . such as we saw suggested above (Jim C, wasn't it?) where a DS emphasized pastors keep their spouse/family in their proper place, not second to the church.

Edit#2: Oops ... tho't I read something like that ... Well, anyway, did find the Bob Benson story quoted by him, after hearing Bob's son:

I'm also reminded of a trip up to John Reilly's place and an opportunity to hear Michael Benson speak. At one point he spoke of his dad and the cancer that he had for 13 years. He said that his mom would always set a place at the table for dad, but that he was rarely there. He said that they knew he had been home because his breakfast bowl would be in the sink when they came down for breakfast. Then his doctor informed him that he has cancer, and that he had six months left to live. Michael said that with the realization that there were but 180 more chances to have dinner with his family, his dad began to come home for dinner, and from that point, he never missed a meal or a chance to be with his family. Moreover he said that every notable sermon, every notable book, and everything that folks would find remarkable about Bob Benson, happened in the thirteen years since the doctor's diagnosis of cancer. Mike said that on his deathbed, his dad looked at his cancer as being a gift from God, he shuddered to think of how his life would have played out without it.

I think that there is something to be learned from this story.

The mentoring suggested by Bob Hunter may be something to check into. Actually, seems we have all heard such things thru the years, but guess it is not only getting them implemented, but keeping them alive, that is the difficulty, perhaps?

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Sad.

ETA something that came to mind as I clicked "reply": long ago, when still in school (hs) it seems, for some reason it was asked of pastor's wife if there was any complaint she had (now, her hubby was the one who seemed to embody/finally assured us of how gracious God is). Just one, that went something like this: "I wish he could be home more."

'Wonder if folks pulled less at his time after that, realizing his family ~~ which had young kids at the time ~~ needed him, too?

[Wes Smith]

In my first pastorate in Marysville, CA, in about 1975, I received a phone call from my best college friend's wife. She told me that her pastor-husband, my best friend at the time, was obviously involved in an affair with a lady in the church. It was absolutely crazy. Their moral craziness resulted in one of the saddest seasons of my life and resulted in a short circuiting of my friend's calling and ministry vision for his life. Very sad. However, this kind of moral failure is not what motivated this thread.

What motivated this is perhaps somewhat similar on the outside, but imho, radically different.

I am quite familiar with two pastors whose wives thoroughly turned off the affection and sex in their marriages. That means more than "not enough sex." It meant...no sex. Further, they never heard "honey, sweety, love-of-my-life, hot diggity" or were occasioned to even casual touch or tenderness. Enough sex and tenderess was tolerated early on to produce a few children, but at certain points the relationships became vast oceans of ships merely passing in the night.

Obviously we don't have full information here, but just imagine a young guy trying to come to grips with the abandonment by his lover. He dutifully performs all the duties of the man of the house and makes an outward success of his ministry. One of the guys is even elected to the office of DS by his district. Both of these guys would have given up anything and everything just to have the privilege to come home to an enthusiastic, loving, caring, expressive wife.

The transition by the pastors away from the emotionally and sexually frigid spouses took years, actually decades. When it happened, the spotlight did not even come close to the ones who actually initiated and perpetuated the abandonment. The spotlight focused directly on the ordained elders who were charged with participation in...conduct unbecoming to a minister. The emotionally and sexually abandoning wives were seen as...victims.

There is just something that doesn't ring right about this and, imho, deserves some attention, some discussion.

I don't put this subject in the same arena as most other marital problems. These two guys both went to great lengths to try to solve the problem but could not. How many more, as suggested above, have tried, given up, hunkered down, endured, died inside?

And, I'm guessing this is not just a male issue. How many pastoral wives have experienced emotional and sexual abandonment and have either found someone to meet those needs or who have silently endured?

Keep talking.

Friend,

Wes

[Jon Privett]

Wes,

Interesting conversation. On a similar note, I recently had a long conversation with man who I known years prior. I was shocked when he told me that he had six affairs since I last knew him. Actually, the number climbed to eight.

When I asked him: "Why did you step out of your covenant to your wife of more than 20 years?" He said: "She had not has been interested physically in our relationship for more than five years".

I spent some time with him and later, both him and his wife, and am happy to report that they have both made a serious commitment to long term counseling. After a lot of honest and painful revelations, they are working on making it to 30 years. Efforts have been made to reconnect emotionally, spend more time together and push away family commitments to children/grandchildren.

It is amazing how easy it seemed for the man to justify relationships outside the marriage without informing his wife (until he was caught) and amazingly 'normal' for the wife to stop all sexual activity due to changes in her body and several surgeries.

My wife answered when I asked: "Can you stop having sex together and make it in a marriage" She said "Nope. It is not a marriage anymore!"

My thoughts......and by the way.....Facebook was a major culprit in his actions.

Apart from a serious medical reason, I think I would say that the covenant of marriage has not been honored.

Jon